The White's

I am very apple shaped & the both of my children spent lots of time in the
sling, especially my youngest. Check Dr Sears books, and others, for
illustrations of different ways to wear it.

With the sling, you still spend lots of time with the oldest. Melanie, I
think it will be easier once the baby is here because right now you easily
tire due to the pregnancy.

If baby is in bed with you when it wakes up hungry, you don't even really
wake up, you just roll over & help the baby get started then you are back to
sleep...the baby nurses until full & also falls asleep. Next morning you
are not tired because you've had plenty of sleep. And the baby never gets
mad from having to wait until it wakes you up enough to get to him/her.

Cindy

>I want to point out that slings seem to work better for pear-shaped women
than for apple-shaped woman. (An apple-shaped woman has hips that are not
very big and a waist that is not very small. It's harder to carry a larger
baby on your hip if you are built like this.) Other types of carriers may
work better for a woman who isn't pear -shaped.<

[email protected]

>>Now with attachment parenting did you go out every once in a while,
just you and your husband, or was the baby always with you? Also, when
baby fell asleep did
you put her in a crib or ... what did you do? I'm just curious.>>

Here's how one person did it. I didn't know the term AP at the time. I
chose to never give my second child supplemental milk feedings (ie, no
bottles). I have no regrets! That first year went by so quick! My
husband and I are still very much in love, in spite of having little time
"alone together" when our children were young. And yes, I did put my
baby down when she slept. Put her down sometimes when she was awake too!
Maybe there is a reason God made men and women different. If infants
need Mom the most, could it be God made a mistake? Or was God's plan to
have a father nuture a mother so that the mother could nurture the
infant?
Mary Ellen
Books Fall Open, You Fall In
http://www.homestead.com/gateskate




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faith buckley

megates@... wrote:

> From: megates@...
>
> Or was God's plan to
> have a father nuture a mother so that the mother could nurture the
> infant?
> Mary Ellen

I like that!!!!!!
Faith

Joel Hawthorne

I think fathers, with the exception of nursing, (which is an important
difference) are capable of nurturing their babies every bit as much as
mothers. I disagree that it is God's plan for fathers to primarily nurture
mothers so they, in turn can nurture babies.

It is in fact part of the bigger problems in the world, that fathers are so
divorced from nurturing babies. It is one of the ways in which men are able
to perpetuate the violence that they do.... world wide, cross culturally,
internationally, and at the expense of children, women and men everywhere.
Men that are intimately involved in the nurturing of children are much less
able, willing or inclined to perpetuate violence in its many forms, on other
people's children. This goes across, economic lines too. The CEO who
bathed his babies, stayed up all night with them when they were ill, changed
their diapers right along with the mother, cuddled their infants, carried
their babies around a lot, is much less likely to support a corporate agenda
which destroys the lives of children. Sadly there aren't very many.

The division of men and women and their roles is much more of a social and
political construct (lots of evidence from cross cultural studies showing
dramatic differences in some cultures) than the will of God.

With all due respect, I do not want someone else to interpret God's will for
me or to make pronouncements about what God's will is. Each person gets to
do that for themselves.

It is okay with me if the gender construct which I see as transient and
obviously in constant transition is the will of God in someone else's
opinion. But I don't see it that way and I question the usefulness of using
God for the purposes of discussion. Anyone can and does use the Will Of
God to justify whatever their position might be. Means nothing to me. In
terms of logical argument it is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"
which simply clouds issues. But perhaps I am only stating the obvious limits
to an otherwise logical discussion. Truly no offense intended and I really
do support people's absolute right to believe whatever they choose to
believe. Me included.




faith buckley wrote:

> From: faith buckley <faithb@...>
>
> megates@... wrote:
>
> > From: megates@...
> >
> > Or was God's plan to
> > have a father nuture a mother so that the mother could nurture the
> > infant?
> > Mary Ellen
>
> I like that!!!!!!
> Faith
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
conserve, restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society
i.e. restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

so then who nurtures the father???
Suz
-----Original Message-----
From: faith buckley <faithb@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re:attachment parenting


>From: faith buckley <faithb@...>
>
>
>
>megates@... wrote:
>
>> From: megates@...
>>
>> Or was God's plan to
>> have a father nuture a mother so that the mother could nurture the
>> infant?
>> Mary Ellen
>
>I like that!!!!!!
>Faith
>
>>Check it out!
>http://www.unschooling.com
>

faith buckley

Joel,
I just thought her statement might help my husband not feel so lost when our
daughter won't be comforted by him but is instantly comforted by me. But I do
agree with you also. Although he does change diapers and carries her around
when she'll let him, without crying. And he LOVES playing with her, but of
course she's at that age where she can get overstimulated quickly. Right? And
she doesn't respond to his cuddle efforts very well. He tries but when she's
crying she just wants nothing to do with him. Is there something you think
might help? From a father's perspective?

I'm sure he wishes he could spend as much time with her as I do, along with our
other kids. Maybe someday!

Living for Him, Faith

Joel Hawthorne wrote:

> From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
>
> I think fathers, with the exception of nursing, (which is an important
> difference) are capable of nurturing their babies every bit as much as
> mothers. I disagree that it is God's plan for fathers to primarily nurture
> mothers so they, in turn can nurture babies.
>
> It is in fact part of the bigger problems in the world, that fathers are so
> divorced from nurturing babies. It is one of the ways in which men are able
> to perpetuate the violence that they do.... world wide, cross culturally,
> internationally, and at the expense of children, women and men everywhere.
> Men that are intimately involved in the nurturing of children are much less
> able, willing or inclined to perpetuate violence in its many forms, on other
> people's children. This goes across, economic lines too. The CEO who
> bathed his babies, stayed up all night with them when they were ill, changed
> their diapers right along with the mother, cuddled their infants, carried
> their babies around a lot, is much less likely to support a corporate agenda
> which destroys the lives of children. Sadly there aren't very many.
>
> The division of men and women and their roles is much more of a social and
> political construct (lots of evidence from cross cultural studies showing
> dramatic differences in some cultures) than the will of God.
>
> With all due respect, I do not want someone else to interpret God's will for
> me or to make pronouncements about what God's will is. Each person gets to
> do that for themselves.
>
> It is okay with me if the gender construct which I see as transient and
> obviously in constant transition is the will of God in someone else's
> opinion. But I don't see it that way and I question the usefulness of using
> God for the purposes of discussion. Anyone can and does use the Will Of
> God to justify whatever their position might be. Means nothing to me. In
> terms of logical argument it is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"
> which simply clouds issues. But perhaps I am only stating the obvious limits
> to an otherwise logical discussion. Truly no offense intended and I really
> do support people's absolute right to believe whatever they choose to
> believe. Me included.
>
> faith buckley wrote:
>
> > From: faith buckley <faithb@...>
> >
> > megates@... wrote:
> >
> > > From: megates@...
> > >
> > > Or was God's plan to
> > > have a father nuture a mother so that the mother could nurture the
> > > infant?
> > > Mary Ellen
> >
> > I like that!!!!!!
> > Faith
> >
> > > Check it out!
> > http://www.unschooling.com
>
> --
> best wishes
> Joel
>
> All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
> Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
>
> Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
> conserve, restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society
> i.e. restorative justice.
> We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
> http://www.cerj.org
>
> > Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

faith buckley

"Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" wrote:

> From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>
> so then who nurtures the father???
> Suz

I would say the mother has the unique privilege of doing that also! At
least that is the way it is in my house! But if your talking by the kids,
my family has some nights when mom is at a meeting or something. That gives
the kids and dad a time to do nothing but wrestle and play, doing things
that the kids talk about for days afterward!!!

Faith

A. Yates

I'm laughing at this Faith. At our house that means watching The Three
Stooges with Dad (which Mom hates and Dad and Kids love) :)
Ann

faith buckley wrote:

> "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" wrote:
>
>> From: "Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst" <fuerst@...>
>>
>> so then who nurtures the father???
>> Suz
>
> I would say the mother has the unique privilege of doing that also!
> At least that is the way it is in my house! But if your talking by
> the kids, my family has some nights when mom is at a meeting or
> something. That gives the kids and dad a time to do nothing but
> wrestle and play, doing things that the kids talk about for days
> afterward!!!
>
> Faith
>
>

Joel Hawthorne

I really don't know the answer. I have had a few occasions when whatever I did
wasn't good enough and sometimes it does not feel good. I had lots of occasions
when I walked with an inconsolable baby for a long time. Nothing anyone did had
much effect so I just kept walking and singing and hoping that whatever was wrong
would right itself. It did but eeesh the process was unpleasant. Crying babies
yard hard on the instincts and when you can't fix it it is in my experience
excruciating. At least the baby knows someone is there trying. Maybe it is baby
existential angst? I dunno.

One of my favorite things with my babies was holding them until they fell asleep,
(usually while I was reclining on the couch) and letting the soporific vibes wash
over me and put me to sleep too. Me and kids both seemed to love it.

I wish I could offer some useful advice. Dealing with all the "male" anger stuff
certainly can't hurt. Many men do have trouble feeling sorrow, grief and fear but
are really comfortable with anger. It is a problem for the world.

Good luck.

faith buckley wrote:

> From: faith buckley <faithb@...>
>
> Joel,
> I just thought her statement might help my husband not feel so lost when our
> daughter won't be comforted by him but is instantly comforted by me. But I do
> agree with you also. Although he does change diapers and carries her around
> when she'll let him, without crying. And he LOVES playing with her, but of
> course she's at that age where she can get overstimulated quickly. Right? And
> she doesn't respond to his cuddle efforts very well. He tries but when she's
> crying she just wants nothing to do with him. Is there something you think
> might help? From a father's perspective?
>
> I'm sure he wishes he could spend as much time with her as I do, along with our
> other kids. Maybe someday!
>
> Living for Him, Faith
>
> Joel Hawthorne wrote:
>
> > From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> >
> > I think fathers, with the exception of nursing, (which is an important
> > difference) are capable of nurturing their babies every bit as much as
> > mothers. I disagree that it is God's plan for fathers to primarily nurture
> > mothers so they, in turn can nurture babies.
> >
> > It is in fact part of the bigger problems in the world, that fathers are so
> > divorced from nurturing babies. It is one of the ways in which men are able
> > to perpetuate the violence that they do.... world wide, cross culturally,
> > internationally, and at the expense of children, women and men everywhere.
> > Men that are intimately involved in the nurturing of children are much less
> > able, willing or inclined to perpetuate violence in its many forms, on other
> > people's children. This goes across, economic lines too. The CEO who
> > bathed his babies, stayed up all night with them when they were ill, changed
> > their diapers right along with the mother, cuddled their infants, carried
> > their babies around a lot, is much less likely to support a corporate agenda
> > which destroys the lives of children. Sadly there aren't very many.
> >
> > The division of men and women and their roles is much more of a social and
> > political construct (lots of evidence from cross cultural studies showing
> > dramatic differences in some cultures) than the will of God.
> >
> > With all due respect, I do not want someone else to interpret God's will for
> > me or to make pronouncements about what God's will is. Each person gets to
> > do that for themselves.
> >
> > It is okay with me if the gender construct which I see as transient and
> > obviously in constant transition is the will of God in someone else's
> > opinion. But I don't see it that way and I question the usefulness of using
> > God for the purposes of discussion. Anyone can and does use the Will Of
> > God to justify whatever their position might be. Means nothing to me. In
> > terms of logical argument it is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority"
> > which simply clouds issues. But perhaps I am only stating the obvious limits
> > to an otherwise logical discussion. Truly no offense intended and I really
> > do support people's absolute right to believe whatever they choose to
> > believe. Me included.

best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/99 1:01:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, faithb@...
writes:

<< I'm sure he wishes he could spend as much time with her as I do, along
with our
other kids. Maybe someday! >>

Well take heart. Some kids are like that. I had one that wanted nothing to
do with ME.... At least for a couple of weeks. Took to his dad and that was
all she wrote. Thank goodness he tolerated the babysitter.

Charlotte

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>I think fathers, with the exception of nursing, (which is an important
>difference) are capable of nurturing their babies every bit as much as
>mothers. I disagree that it is God's plan for fathers to primarily nurture
>mothers so they, in turn can nurture babies.

>The division of men and women and their roles is much more of a social and
>best wishes
>Joel


My DH gets up in the night with his little ones, changes at least as many
diapers as I do, and gives at least as much medicine, etc. He was the one
who had to soothe the little ones when they were fussy as infants and spent
many night sleeping with a little baby on his chest. I hope my sons grow
up to be as wonderful at nurturing and being fathers. My DH does not come
from a large family, has only 1 niece and 1 nephew and knew little or
nothing about babies when we married. But he was sure eager and excited to
learn!

Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/10/99 5:56:43 PM EST, tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< My DH gets up in the night with his little ones, changes at least as many
diapers as I do, and gives at least as much medicine, etc. He was the one
who had to soothe the little ones when they were fussy as infants and spent
many night sleeping with a little baby on his chest. I hope my sons grow
up to be as wonderful at nurturing and being fathers. >>
Nanci,
my dh is exactly the same, my guys are 10 1/2 AND 8 1/2, and dh is still
going. He is soooo great, really gives them more understanding then I do, I
tend to get a bit testy around 9pm! but he is so great, not a thing in this
house that he can't and won't do, except the puter! lol. He is just so good.
Glad that there are other dads out there like him, the kids that have this
kind of dad are the luckiest kids in the world!
Teresa

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/10/99 3:56:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< My DH gets up in the night with his little ones, changes at least as many
diapers as I do, and gives at least as much medicine, etc. He was the one
who had to soothe the little ones when they were fussy as infants and spent
many night sleeping with a little baby on his chest. >>

Same here Nancy. I debated within myself to breast or bottle feed this last
one. After months of agony I decided to bottle feed. My dh said after I
made my decision it was a real load off his mind. Seems he would've really
missed the feedings.

Charlotte

[email protected]

So IS this what "we" are doing? Keeping the needs
of our children upfront and foremost..allowing them
to develop at their pace...providing quidance, love
support...I understand that some parents don't take
the role of a parent as seriously as I/we do..so does
that make me someone who can be labeled as one who
believes in "attachment parenting"?
Eileen

[email protected]

In a message dated 02/03/2000 9:55:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jazballard@... writes:

<< So IS this what "we" are doing? Keeping the needs
of our children upfront and foremost..allowing them
to develop at their pace...providing quidance, love
support...I understand that some parents don't take
the role of a parent as seriously as I/we do..so does
that make me someone who can be labeled as one who
believes in "attachment parenting"? >>

Yes these all sound good! Most people when they speak
of attachment parenting, they are talking about a lifestyle term that
was coined by Dr. Bill and Martha Sears, pediatrician, La Leche
League Leader and parents to eight children. Many people think
of AP (attachment parenting) as natural parenting, and often this
type of parenting can be found in non-industrialized cultures and
considered the norm. Most Americans practicing AP start from
birth, looking to birth their children in the gentle environment,
breastfeeding and sleep sharing, and carrying your baby/child in
a sling or in arms. Crying it out and physical punishment
are not considered AP. You do not have to have done all of the
above practices to be AP I believe, (example; some women may not have had
all the correct information or support to breastfeed their child, but practice
other attachment/bonding practices). In turn these practices help you and
your child become in tune with each other, so you can better parent etc.
There are tons of sites on the
web where you can learn more about this. Hope this helps! ps. I think that
homeschooling/unschooling is a very natural progression from and early
APing lifestyle.
Kathy

Sandi Myers

Eileen,

I have been sporadic in keeping up to date with this list and so may be
saying something that has been said already. I think before we used the
term attachment parenting, we used a term in La Leche League--marsupial
mothering, meaning we had babies on our bodies, or someone's body, toting
them, until they chose to crawl/toddle off to do their own thing and then
still offered to hold/carry them as much as they wanted until they no longer
wanted or needed it. I suspect the term attachment parenting evolved from
that, and certainly fits well with our unschooling ways and beliefs.

Sandi Myers


Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] attachment parenting


> From: jazballard@...
>
> So IS this what "we" are doing? Keeping the needs
> of our children upfront and foremost..allowing them
> to develop at their pace...providing quidance, love
> support...I understand that some parents don't take
> the role of a parent as seriously as I/we do..so does
> that make me someone who can be labeled as one who
> believes in "attachment parenting"?
> Eileen

Tracy Oldfield

me too, that's where I'm coming from :-)

Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: Natrlmama@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] attachment parenting


From: Natrlmama@...

In a message dated 02/03/2000 9:55:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jazballard@... writes:

<< So IS this what "we" are doing? Keeping the needs
of our children upfront and foremost..allowing them
to develop at their pace...providing quidance, love
support...I understand that some parents don't take
the role of a parent as seriously as I/we do..so does
that make me someone who can be labeled as one who
believes in "attachment parenting"? >>

Yes these all sound good! Most people when they speak
of attachment parenting, they are talking about a lifestyle term that
was coined by Dr. Bill and Martha Sears, pediatrician, La Leche
League Leader and parents to eight children. Many people think
of AP (attachment parenting) as natural parenting, and often this
type of parenting can be found in non-industrialized cultures and
considered the norm. Most Americans practicing AP start from
birth, looking to birth their children in the gentle environment,
breastfeeding and sleep sharing, and carrying your baby/child in
a sling or in arms. Crying it out and physical punishment
are not considered AP. You do not have to have done all of the
above practices to be AP I believe, (example; some women may not have had
all the correct information or support to breastfeed their child, but practice
other attachment/bonding practices). In turn these practices help you and
your child become in tune with each other, so you can better parent etc.
There are tons of sites on the
web where you can learn more about this. Hope this helps! ps. I think that
homeschooling/unschooling is a very natural progression from and early
APing lifestyle.
Kathy

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[email protected]

Thank you everyone for the definition to this phrase..
it certainly helps now..to put things into place...
guess I can now phrase myself this way, since I just
didn't know better with my first..will be able to "do"
more for my second (whenever that comes along)..
unschooling my 3 yo is as natural a process as I can
think of..ofcourse he is only 3..but sometimes I sway
back and forth, thinking preschool would be "good" for
him, then ofcourse I read another book..this time, thanks
to someone on the list, Playful Learning, and am back to knowing
I can do this on my own. Now I'm trying to feel out the other
mothers at the moms/tots class we go to...anyway...
thank you all
Eileen
getting really tired of this snow..need some warm sunshine, mud in
my hands and flowers growing

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/12/04 1:00:49 PM, treiser@... writes:

<< read a

lot, watched what's her name??, the British woman who was on PBS years

ago...she really gave me courage to put my child first.

>>

Penelope Leach?

My big attachment parenting messages, the things that turned me around in my
head so I could go a new direction, were heard at La Leche League meetings:
"You might now know how to nurse a baby, but your baby instinctively knows what
he needs. Listen to him." And "You and your child are partners in this"
("this" being their sustenance and comfort, and sure enough, when he was more
comfortable, so was I--physically and emotionally both).

Sandra