Rebecca Benson

Hi everyone. I've been reading on this board for a few weeks and I have a problem that I could use some help with.

I guess I should start off by saying that I'm a mother-of-five, ages 13, 9, 4, 2 and 7months. I've been homeschooling my oldest since 2000 (except for four months in 2003 when we moved to a new town and the kids decided to try the schools here) and my 9yo just recently came back home after two years in PS (his choice). Initially I did the very structured school at home thing, followed The Well Trained Mind etc., but I gradually loosened up. I've been "almost" unschooling for about 18 months. I say almost because my husband does not want me to homeschool and definitely doesn't want me to unschool, so I've just been gradually dropping things from our "curriculum" and I have told the boys straight out that the only reason we do any structured stuff is because it is reassuring to their father and I figure that an hour or less per day is a very small sacrifice for all of us.

But anyway, let me get to the point. In addition to moving towards unschooling, I've managed to persuade my husband that we should get rid of the restrictions on the kids bedtimes and let the boys choose when to go to bed as long as they can be respectful of the rest of us who are asleep. Well, this has worked pretty well, because although we're less than thrilled that the boys are staying up until 530 in the morning, we (or actually I) believe that they will eventually get over the novelty of the situation and start getting more rest.

The problem is that now my four-year-old and two-year-old daughters want to stay up with their big brothers until all hours of the night. Until just a few days ago the girls, who slept in their beds in our bedroom, would just go to bed when my husband, the baby and I went to bed. It was never a battle, they never cried, a lot of times my 2yo would ask to be put in her crib early. Well, now that the girls are sleeping in their own room, they want to stay up late too. My 4yo has even asked my husband why we're mean to her and her little sister for making them go to bed while the boys get to stay up.

I don't feel comfortable letting the girls stay up without any supervision, so I've been staying up until 130 or 200 when the girls finally fall asleep and then I go to bed. This wouldn't be a problem if I could sleep late, but my only chance to exercise is early in the morning when a friend and I go walking at 545 before our husbands get up and get ready for work. Even if I didn't walk, my baby wakes up at around 700 every morning and he no longer wants to just be nursed back to sleep. I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy, bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up late and watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the night.

I don't know what to do. I don't want to go back to telling the boys what time to go to bed because I feel that they should be allowed to decide something like that for themselves and I don't want to force the girls to go to bed because I feel that is sending them the message that they are somehow inferior to the boys either because of age or gender. Also, I feel that since I finally won this particular battle, if I can just manage to prove to my husband that, yes, this was a good idea, I can get him to relax about the other rules he wants us to have in place in the house ie, chores, allowances, food choices and video games.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.

Rebecca


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Tracey Inman

I am in the same boat. I have one dh (13yo) that does well monitoring
herself. She sometimes will stay up all night working on her art, reading,
watching t.v, etc. But when she realizes she is tired during the day she
will take a week or two and go to bed early and get up at a reasonable time
(before noon!) On the other hand I have a dh (10yo) who stays up late
mostly watching t.v. or a times learning to sew and the next day she is as
ill as she can be. We all suffer because of her attitude. This has gone on
for about 4 or 5 months now. My dh is pushing that we have a bedtime for
her. I have suggested that one of us go and lay down with her around 9 or
10 and spend some time talking or reading with her in hopes she will settle
in for the night. I don't want to go backwards with laying down rules.
Although I have to admit it is wearing on her emotionally and physically,
She doesn't feel as well and I am concerned that she isn't getting enough
rest. I didn't mention early but even when she stays up really late she
isn't sleeping past 8:30 or 9:00. I too would appreciate suggestions.


~Tracey I.

>>I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy,
bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up late and
watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the night. <<

Rebecca Benson

My 9yo son is doing the same thing as your 10yo. I get up in the morning to walk and he's still awake, watching TV or playing GameCube and then will take what is basically a catnap and be up for the day by 900. I've tried to discussing with him how he needs to make choices that are going to keep him in good health, but so far no good. My older son (13yo) is starting to go to bed earlier, but he's not the one who worries me because he'll sleep until 2pm if he's tired and get his rest in that way.

As for my two and four-year-old daughters, I told them last night that Mommy was exhausted and feeling sick and that I HAD to go to sleep early, that I couldn't stay up late with them and that for last night at least, they needed to go to bed when Daddy and I did. There were some tears, and I felt more than a little guilty, but in this instance I chose my need for rest over their need to stay up.

I'm still hoping that someone else on this list will respond to my original message and maybe give me (and you!) some advice.

Rebecca

Tracey Inman <traceyi@...> wrote:
On the other hand I have a dh (10yo) who stays up late
mostly watching t.v. or a times learning to sew and the next day she is as ill as she can be... Although I have to admit it is wearing on her emotionally and physically,
She doesn't feel as well and I am concerned that she isn't getting enough
rest. I didn't mention early but even when she stays up really late she
isn't sleeping past 8:30 or 9:00.

~Tracey I.

>>I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy,
bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up late and
watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the night. <<




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Candy Janish

Just a question. Do they have the TVs and game systems in their rooms ? My son does not and I have him head to his room around 9 and he can stay up till he wants there. But without the electronic stimulation, he is usually sleepy around 10 and goes to bed (he is almost 9)

Good luck !
Canyd

Rebecca Benson <rjpbenson@...> wrote:
My 9yo son is doing the same thing as your 10yo. I get up in the morning to walk and he's still awake, watching TV or playing GameCube and then will take what is basically a catnap and be up for the day by 900. I've tried to discussing with him how he needs to make choices that are going to keep him in good health, but so far no good. My older son (13yo) is starting to go to bed earlier, but he's not the one who worries me because he'll sleep until 2pm if he's tired and get his rest in that way.

As for my two and four-year-old daughters, I told them last night that Mommy was exhausted and feeling sick and that I HAD to go to sleep early, that I couldn't stay up late with them and that for last night at least, they needed to go to bed when Daddy and I did. There were some tears, and I felt more than a little guilty, but in this instance I chose my need for rest over their need to stay up.

I'm still hoping that someone else on this list will respond to my original message and maybe give me (and you!) some advice.

Rebecca

Tracey Inman <traceyi@...> wrote:
On the other hand I have a dh (10yo) who stays up late
mostly watching t.v. or a times learning to sew and the next day she is as ill as she can be... Although I have to admit it is wearing on her emotionally and physically,
She doesn't feel as well and I am concerned that she isn't getting enough
rest. I didn't mention early but even when she stays up really late she
isn't sleeping past 8:30 or 9:00.

~Tracey I.

>>I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy,
bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up late and
watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the night. <<




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Julie Bogart

We've had a little of that discussion here too.

My younger two (11 and 9) do go to bed when we do except on weekends.
The older kids just aren't always up and we have a smallish house that
is very squeaky. During the weekdays, we can't sleep when they come
trouncing up the stairs at midnight or later.

The older ones seem able to be either quieter, don't need us for
things (like more toothpaste or a different pillow case, or even the
final tucking in) and they stay up so late that we are definitely
sound asleep by the time they go to bed.

In addition, if they are up super late, then we don't get to have time
together the next morning because they sleep in so late. This is
problematic for us because I have numerous activities to drive kids to
in the afternoons which means that we can't do the fun things they
like to do.

So after a pow wow, we worked out that on the weekends when daddy
didn't need to get up to work, we'd have the younger ones go to bed
when we do (usually sometime between 10:30 and midnight) and on
weekends, they are free to go to bed when they want to. The olders are
left to make their own decisions.

That has been working so far.

Julie


--- In [email protected], Rebecca Benson
<rjpbenson@y...> wrote:
> My 9yo son is doing the same thing as your 10yo. I get up in the
morning to walk and he's still awake, watching TV or playing GameCube
and then will take what is basically a catnap and be up for the day by
900. I've tried to discussing with him how he needs to make choices
that are going to keep him in good health, but so far no good. My
older son (13yo) is starting to go to bed earlier, but he's not the
one who worries me because he'll sleep until 2pm if he's tired and get
his rest in that way.
>
> As for my two and four-year-old daughters, I told them last night
that Mommy was exhausted and feeling sick and that I HAD to go to
sleep early, that I couldn't stay up late with them and that for last
night at least, they needed to go to bed when Daddy and I did. There
were some tears, and I felt more than a little guilty, but in this
instance I chose my need for rest over their need to stay up.
>
> I'm still hoping that someone else on this list will respond to my
original message and maybe give me (and you!) some advice.
>
> Rebecca
>
> Tracey Inman <traceyi@s...> wrote:
> On the other hand I have a dh (10yo) who stays up late
> mostly watching t.v. or a times learning to sew and the next day she
is as ill as she can be... Although I have to admit it is wearing on
her emotionally and physically,
> She doesn't feel as well and I am concerned that she isn't getting
enough
> rest. I didn't mention early but even when she stays up really late she
> isn't sleeping past 8:30 or 9:00.
>
> ~Tracey I.
>
> >>I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy,
> bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up late and
> watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the
night. <<
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
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<http://www.unschooling.info>
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>
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education Graduate school education online High school education
Chicago school education
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Service.
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Rachael VerNooy

Tracey and Rebecca,

I sympathize with your sleep problems, since I've been through them
too! Might I suggest a change in perspective? I start by knowing that
my children have a right to sleep and wake when they want. They do not
NEED to be well-rested or healthy or whatever. Of course, I also assume
that I have a right to get whatever sleep I need, although this can be
difficult with very young children.

So, with a child who stays up late and then gets up before getting very
much sleep: Maybe the child needs some personal experience with
functioning on not much sleep to come the conclusion that she doesn't
want to do it on a regular basis. You could talk with her about how she
feels the next day when she sleeps a lot versus when she doesn't. It
may take several months or years (or maybe only days) before she comes
to the conclusion that she'd rather get more sleep. OR, she may not
ever come to that conclusion. There may be things more important to her
than sleep, just as there are to some adults. I remember experimenting
with sleep and sleep schedules as a teenager. Don't forget to talk
about the effect a grumpy person may have on others in the family.
However, sleep-deprived people are not necessarily grumpy towards
others, they could just be in a fog instead.

About a young child wanting to stay up late: Would the older children
be willing to "babysit" for the four-year-olds after you go to sleep?
Would the four-year-olds be willing to do something quiet near you or
in a specified "safe" room after you go to sleep (watch videos with
very low sound or headphones, play with quiet toys,...?), so you can
feel they are safe? Can Mom rearrange her sleep schedule to match the
children's more? Talk about this at a time when everyone's relaxed and
it's not evening. Maybe someone in the family will have other ideas.

In all these cases, you could ask your children WHY they want to stay
up so late. Maybe they want more time without an adult around? You
could stay out of their way more during the day. Maybe the best t.v.
shows are on then? You could record them to watch later. Etc.

You should also tell the children that you would feel much better with
more sleep. Maybe they can brainstorm ideas for you to get the sleep
you want. Try some of their ideas, even if they seem a little strange.
I found that my ideas about sleep were maybe brainwashed into me as a
child, and that actually I didn't "need" certain things sleep-wise that
I thought I did.

Good luck...

Rachael

Julie Bogart

This is the most confusing post I've ever made to the list. I got
distracted twice writing it and in rereading think : what on earth was
I trying to say? Sorry.

Here's the gist:

My younger two stay up on weekends, if they want to but during week
days go to bed when we do (parents). Older kids (13 and up) seem more
able to keep quiet and get to bed without needing our help so we don't
worry about when they go to bed.

The younger ones aren't required to turn out lights or go to sleep.
They just need to be in pj's, quietly in their rooms when we finally
turn in (sometimes between 10:30 and midnight).

Hope that's clearer... geesh!

Julie



--- In [email protected], "Julie Bogart"
<julie@b...> wrote:
> We've had a little of that discussion here too.
>
> My younger two (11 and 9) do go to bed when we do except on weekends.
> The older kids just aren't always up and we have a smallish house that
> is very squeaky. During the weekdays, we can't sleep when they come
> trouncing up the stairs at midnight or later.
>
> The older ones seem able to be either quieter, don't need us for
> things (like more toothpaste or a different pillow case, or even the
> final tucking in) and they stay up so late that we are definitely
> sound asleep by the time they go to bed.
>
> In addition, if they are up super late, then we don't get to have time
> together the next morning because they sleep in so late. This is
> problematic for us because I have numerous activities to drive kids to
> in the afternoons which means that we can't do the fun things they
> like to do.
>
> So after a pow wow, we worked out that on the weekends when daddy
> didn't need to get up to work, we'd have the younger ones go to bed
> when we do (usually sometime between 10:30 and midnight) and on
> weekends, they are free to go to bed when they want to. The olders are
> left to make their own decisions.
>
> That has been working so far.
>
> Julie
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Rebecca Benson
> <rjpbenson@y...> wrote:
> > My 9yo son is doing the same thing as your 10yo. I get up in the
> morning to walk and he's still awake, watching TV or playing GameCube
> and then will take what is basically a catnap and be up for the day by
> 900. I've tried to discussing with him how he needs to make choices
> that are going to keep him in good health, but so far no good. My
> older son (13yo) is starting to go to bed earlier, but he's not the
> one who worries me because he'll sleep until 2pm if he's tired and get
> his rest in that way.
> >
> > As for my two and four-year-old daughters, I told them last night
> that Mommy was exhausted and feeling sick and that I HAD to go to
> sleep early, that I couldn't stay up late with them and that for last
> night at least, they needed to go to bed when Daddy and I did. There
> were some tears, and I felt more than a little guilty, but in this
> instance I chose my need for rest over their need to stay up.
> >
> > I'm still hoping that someone else on this list will respond to my
> original message and maybe give me (and you!) some advice.
> >
> > Rebecca
> >
> > Tracey Inman <traceyi@s...> wrote:
> > On the other hand I have a dh (10yo) who stays up late
> > mostly watching t.v. or a times learning to sew and the next day she
> is as ill as she can be... Although I have to admit it is wearing on
> her emotionally and physically,
> > She doesn't feel as well and I am concerned that she isn't getting
> enough
> > rest. I didn't mention early but even when she stays up really
late she
> > isn't sleeping past 8:30 or 9:00.
> >
> > ~Tracey I.
> >
> > >>I'm just exhausted and my husband is getting more and more grouchy,
> > bitching that he doesn't see the purpose in the boys staying up
late and
> > watching Nick at Night or playing GameCube until all hours of the
> night. <<
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
> >
> > Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> <http://www.unschooling.info>
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school
> education Graduate school education online High school education
> Chicago school education
> >
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> >
> >
> > Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
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> Service.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<<As for my two and four-year-old daughters, I told them last night that
Mommy was exhausted and feeling sick and that I HAD to go to sleep early, that I
couldn't stay up late with them and that for last night at least, they
needed to go to bed when Daddy and I did. There were some tears, and I felt more
than a little guilty, but in this instance I chose my need for rest over
their need to stay up.

I'm still hoping that someone else on this list will respond to my original
message and maybe give me (and you!) some advice.

Rebecca>>


Rebecca,

I don't see your other post in my last couple digests but wanted to respond
to this.


I myself have 4 children ages 13,5,3 and 17 months. My 3 yr old sleeps in my
room and my 17mo co-sleeps and Im still nursing. I might add he last several
weeks and most of his 17mo nurses a good 50% of my sleep time.

Our 13 yr old has a runescape schedule that has been all night or till 11.
The 5 yr old is up till midnight most nights though falls asleep earlier if she
needs it. They both sleep until 10ish. She's pretty good at night. Last
night she was in her room changing tv channels. She yelled to the 13 yr old that
a cartoon was on that was in a comic book (Simpsons?). I cringed as I
listened to the interact. My son and her have been clashing the past year. She's so
independent and getting older and it's hard for him to allow her to be that
when he's been the one for years... Anyway, She said that and he said
(nicely) yes, Cassidy , thank you for telling me. I didn't realize I was holding my
breath but I was...

Being that I also am a night owl and often hang out with them after the baby
is asleep I have been lacking sleep. I wake sore,lacking sleep and was
beginning to feel ill. I think with several children there needs to be a balance
for husband and wife. With four children it can feel like your being pulled in
5 different directions with the end result of wondering where your personal
time went. For me some nights I need to just go to bed after the kids are all
set and others I stay up to try to catch up with my husband, emails,ebay and
laundry. Making time for yourself and your husband is important. I've found
that some things my husband deals with better than I so he brings the 3yr
old to bed, I put the 17mo to bed and we tend to the 13 and 5 yr old in between
and after. I think my older kids stay up later bc they get more one on one
then. It's not a simple task to keep everyone happy while your tired but if
balanced and openly discussed you can lower the frustrations.

I totally understand having several children who are of differing ages but
equal in the family. They can feed off each other and they can also help each
other when mommy and daddy are busy.
Laura


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rebecca Benson

The TV that's connected to their GameCube is in their room and the other TV is in the den, which is right next to their room. My husband has suggested limiting the amount of TV or games they can watch or play during the evening, but if we're going to be controlling in that way, then we might as well tell them to go to bed, too, which is something I really don't want to do. After all, I wouldn't want my husband to tell me that I could stay up as late as I wanted, but only if I didn't sign on to the computer or read my books. Not that I'd listen to him anyway:-)

Candy Janish <momtotyandlog1@...> wrote:Just a question. Do they have the TVs and game systems in their rooms ? My son does not and I have him head to his room around 9 and he can stay up till he wants there. But without the electronic stimulation, he is usually sleepy around 10 and goes to bed (he is almost 9)

Good luck !
Canyd



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Rebecca Benson

This is actually the problem I have with my older kids (13 and 9) and we're still trying to work on that . My little ones (4, 2 and 7mo) just automatically get more time with me because they can't do as much for themselves and need me more. But I'm hoping that as the kids get used to having control over their own bedtimes they will start going to bed at a more reasonable hour, enabling us to spend more time together.
Rebecca

Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:
In addition, if they are up super late, then we don't get to have time together the next morning because they sleep in so late. This is problematic for us because I have numerous activities to drive kids to in the afternoons which means that we can't do the fun things they like to do.

Julie




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Rebecca Benson

I do believe that my children have the right to sleep and wake when they want and I try to be as accomodating as possible, but I can only survive on four hours of sleep a night for so long.

Rachael VerNooy <rachael.vernooy@...> wrote:
-=-Tracey and Rebecca,

Might I suggest a change in perspective? I start by knowing that my children have a right to sleep and wake when they want. They do not NEED to be well-rested or healthy or whatever. Of course, I also assume that I have a right to get whatever sleep I need, although this can be difficult with very young children.-=-

I've decided that the older boys, 13 and 9, do need to set their own parameters concerning the amount of sleep they need. I have been letting them know the night before what things will be happening the following day and if any of those things could affect the time they want to get up, but it's my 4yo and 2yo who are currently presenting me with a sleep-deprivation (mine, not theirs!) challenge.

-=-So, with a child who stays up late and then gets up before getting very much sleep: Maybe the child needs some personal experience with functioning on not much sleep to come the conclusion that she doesn't want to do it on a regular basis. You could talk with her about how she feels the next day when she sleeps a lot versus when she doesn't.-=-

My eldest son IS grumpy, but my 9yo, who consistently gets the least amount of sleep is just kind of spacey and "in a fog." This is fine with me for the most part, but he makes me nervous when he wants to go out and ride his bike when he's acting that way.

-=-However, sleep-deprived people are not necessarily grumpy towards others, they could just be in a fog instead.-=-

They are willing to a point, but my 2yo gets grouchy and screechy with her 4yo sister at times and so it makes it difficult for my older kids to actually enjoy being up in the first place. That's not fair to them.

-=-About a young child wanting to stay up late: Would the older children be willing to "babysit" for the four-year-olds after you go to sleep?-=-

My husband is a light sleeper so the girls can't be in our room, but I guess I could try camping out in the living room. It's just that my 7mo son sleeps with me and so that would make things a little bit difficult...but not impossible.

-=-Would the four-year-olds be willing to do something quiet near you or in a specified "safe" room after you go to sleep (watch videos with very low sound or headphones, play with quiet toys,...?), so you can feel they are safe? -=-

I wouldn't mind rearranging my sleep schedule if it wasn't for two things. One, my only time to go walking is early in the morning unless I want to drag all five kids with me and two,my 7mo is, and always has been, an early riser. It doesn't matter how late he falls asleep, he still wakes up early.

-=-Can Mom rearrange her sleep schedule to match the
children's more?-=-

My 13 and 9yo both say they like to stay up late because it makes them feel more mature and adult-like to stay up later than their parents. My little ones want to stay up because the older ones get to.


-=-In all these cases, you could ask your children WHY they want to stay up so late.
Rachael





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Rebecca Benson

HMSL2@... wrote:
Laura,

Up until two weeks ago my daughters, 4yo and 2yo, were sleeping in their toddler beds in our room, but then my 4yo wanted to move into her own room. I totally regret moving them into their own room!!! But your e-mail gives me hope that I'll be able to weather this, too.

Rebecca








I myself have 4 children ages 13,5,3 and 17 months. My 3 yr old sleeps in my
room and my 17mo co-sleeps and Im still nursing. I might add he last several
weeks and most of his 17mo nurses a good 50% of my sleep time.

Our 13 yr old has a runescape schedule that has been all night or till 11.
The 5 yr old is up till midnight most nights though falls asleep earlier if she
needs it. They both sleep until 10ish. She's pretty good at night. Last
night she was in her room changing tv channels. She yelled to the 13 yr old that
a cartoon was on that was in a comic book (Simpsons?). I cringed as I
listened to the interact. My son and her have been clashing the past year. She's so
independent and getting older and it's hard for him to allow her to be that
when he's been the one for years... Anyway, She said that and he said
(nicely) yes, Cassidy , thank you for telling me. I didn't realize I was holding my
breath but I was...

Being that I also am a night owl and often hang out with them after the baby
is asleep I have been lacking sleep. I wake sore,lacking sleep and was
beginning to feel ill. I think with several children there needs to be a balance
for husband and wife. With four children it can feel like your being pulled in
5 different directions with the end result of wondering where your personal
time went. For me some nights I need to just go to bed after the kids are all
set and others I stay up to try to catch up with my husband, emails,ebay and
laundry. Making time for yourself and your husband is important. I've found
that some things my husband deals with better than I so he brings the 3yr
old to bed, I put the 17mo to bed and we tend to the 13 and 5 yr old in between
and after. I think my older kids stay up later bc they get more one on one
then. It's not a simple task to keep everyone happy while your tired but if
balanced and openly discussed you can lower the frustrations.

I totally understand having several children who are of differing ages but
equal in the family. They can feed off each other and they can also help each
other when mommy and daddy are busy.
Laura


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