Judgment
Danielle Conger
I would like to explore the notion of judgment in the context of an
Unschooling lifestyle and as Unschooling parents. The AU list is having
a bit of a debate again, and I'd like, for my part, to bring it to a
larger forum--I'm also posting at Unschooling.info under the "parenting"
folder. I know part of this is problematic because it's not technically
an Unschooling issue when children are under 5 (that's mandatory school
age where I live). But, taken in the context of an Unschooling lifestyle
and factoring in age-appropriate expectations, I see the issue on a
continuum about whether or not judgment is useful or possible when
relationships are the priority.
In a nutshell, there is agreement that undesirable behavior is most
often an expression of an unmet need--whether he's hungry, feeling
ignored, whatever--agreement on the priority being to meet the
underlying need. The questions arise over whether to address the
*expression* of the need, whether to judge the *method* of meeting the
need, whether it is useful for a parent to *label* the behavior or the
choice in a particular instance as worse and whether to discuss better
possible choices in future similar situations.
In other words, is it productive parenting/ useful in an Unschooling
context to discuss choices on a better-worse continuum and help our
children find better tools to use in place of worse ones, or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?
Here are some of the things I've written on the topic fwiw...
"I believe the best approach is a two pronged effort where we focus on
the need behind the behavior as well as offering important information
and feedback as to the behavior as a choice of expression. People do
have a choice in how they express themselves and there are better and
worse ways to do that--better and worse in terms of Respect for the
other person, but also better and worse in terms of achieving a goal,
both of which I think need to be talked about. I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed. It's a delicate, situational balance that I try to strike.
But I truly believe that the discussion *needs* to happen at some point,
if not in the moment or as an immediate follow-up, then as a revisiting
(later in the day or week) or a reapplication (as in taking something
they can easily see in a tv show, for instance, and helping them apply
it to a recent incident in their own life). There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life. I'm not saying anything
remotely close to offering etiquette lessons. I'm talking about genuine
feedback as to our reactions, potential general reactions of others
outside the home, etc."
*****
"For me, it becomes a matter of looking past the behavior to the need
and the choice. In other words, instead of seeing a "misbehaving" child,
where the focus is on the behavior itself, we see a needy child who made
a poor choice. By seeing the need and the choice, we are able to address
both while still seeing the Whole Child, free of labels. By seeing the
choice, we keep the behavior within the moment rather than extrapolating
it to include most moments or a way of being. But, most importantly, we
empower the child to make a better choice the next time they face that
need, which empowers them to live in a world with other people."
*****
"I have three children *very* close in age--who all are in similar
developmental stages in terms of empathy, etc. I cannot, personally,
imagine what my house would look like if we didn't talk about choices,
if we didn't brainstorm together more successful--i.e better--ways to
get our needs met. This has been a crucial step for us in understanding
each other and living together. So, it's difficult for me to see life
without voicing the "hitting hurts" or "I felt sad when you called me
x." As I said in my book discussion post, I can see many of Rosenberg's
points about communication, but they are so wordy and involve so many
steps that I can't see them working for problem solving amongst many
small children, though I do find *myself* acting as interpreter of needs
after such statements as "I felt sad when you called me x." I do those
extra steps, hoping that my children will someday be able to do them for
themselves.
I think it's possible to talk about an array of choices. I think it's
possible and even beneficial to talk about them in terms of better
choices and worse choices. I'm very interested in this, and I'm going to
open it up personally (without references to others here) to the UD list
because I would like to hear a wider range of voices for my own personal
growth."
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Unschooling lifestyle and as Unschooling parents. The AU list is having
a bit of a debate again, and I'd like, for my part, to bring it to a
larger forum--I'm also posting at Unschooling.info under the "parenting"
folder. I know part of this is problematic because it's not technically
an Unschooling issue when children are under 5 (that's mandatory school
age where I live). But, taken in the context of an Unschooling lifestyle
and factoring in age-appropriate expectations, I see the issue on a
continuum about whether or not judgment is useful or possible when
relationships are the priority.
In a nutshell, there is agreement that undesirable behavior is most
often an expression of an unmet need--whether he's hungry, feeling
ignored, whatever--agreement on the priority being to meet the
underlying need. The questions arise over whether to address the
*expression* of the need, whether to judge the *method* of meeting the
need, whether it is useful for a parent to *label* the behavior or the
choice in a particular instance as worse and whether to discuss better
possible choices in future similar situations.
In other words, is it productive parenting/ useful in an Unschooling
context to discuss choices on a better-worse continuum and help our
children find better tools to use in place of worse ones, or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?
Here are some of the things I've written on the topic fwiw...
"I believe the best approach is a two pronged effort where we focus on
the need behind the behavior as well as offering important information
and feedback as to the behavior as a choice of expression. People do
have a choice in how they express themselves and there are better and
worse ways to do that--better and worse in terms of Respect for the
other person, but also better and worse in terms of achieving a goal,
both of which I think need to be talked about. I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed. It's a delicate, situational balance that I try to strike.
But I truly believe that the discussion *needs* to happen at some point,
if not in the moment or as an immediate follow-up, then as a revisiting
(later in the day or week) or a reapplication (as in taking something
they can easily see in a tv show, for instance, and helping them apply
it to a recent incident in their own life). There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life. I'm not saying anything
remotely close to offering etiquette lessons. I'm talking about genuine
feedback as to our reactions, potential general reactions of others
outside the home, etc."
*****
"For me, it becomes a matter of looking past the behavior to the need
and the choice. In other words, instead of seeing a "misbehaving" child,
where the focus is on the behavior itself, we see a needy child who made
a poor choice. By seeing the need and the choice, we are able to address
both while still seeing the Whole Child, free of labels. By seeing the
choice, we keep the behavior within the moment rather than extrapolating
it to include most moments or a way of being. But, most importantly, we
empower the child to make a better choice the next time they face that
need, which empowers them to live in a world with other people."
*****
"I have three children *very* close in age--who all are in similar
developmental stages in terms of empathy, etc. I cannot, personally,
imagine what my house would look like if we didn't talk about choices,
if we didn't brainstorm together more successful--i.e better--ways to
get our needs met. This has been a crucial step for us in understanding
each other and living together. So, it's difficult for me to see life
without voicing the "hitting hurts" or "I felt sad when you called me
x." As I said in my book discussion post, I can see many of Rosenberg's
points about communication, but they are so wordy and involve so many
steps that I can't see them working for problem solving amongst many
small children, though I do find *myself* acting as interpreter of needs
after such statements as "I felt sad when you called me x." I do those
extra steps, hoping that my children will someday be able to do them for
themselves.
I think it's possible to talk about an array of choices. I think it's
possible and even beneficial to talk about them in terms of better
choices and worse choices. I'm very interested in this, and I'm going to
open it up personally (without references to others here) to the UD list
because I would like to hear a wider range of voices for my own personal
growth."
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/22/05 7:26:38 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:
"don't care" and "don't know."
-=- The questions arise over whether to address the
*expression* of the need, whether to judge the *method* of meeting the
need, whether it is useful for a parent to *label* the behavior or the
choice in a particular instance as worse and whether to discuss better
possible choices in future similar situations.-=-
Someone sent me something a while back that was good (good meaning I judged
it good; good meaning I agreed with it <bwg>) parenting
discussion/advice/summary, and I was liking reading it, but near the end it said (to
whichever/whoever it was aimed at) not to worry about what other people thought about your
child. That was NOT (in my judgment good).
I was planning to come here and figure out how to bring that up. Maybe it's
not what Danielle's after discussing and maybe it is.
-=-In other words, is it productive parenting/ useful in an Unschooling
context to discuss choices on a better-worse continuum and help our
children find better tools to use in place of worse ones...-=-
I think YES, absolutely and unquestionably yes.
To do otherwise is cruel.
If you were hosting a visitor from a very different culture who didn't know
how to shake hands or otherwise greet people, would you not advise him? If
your visitor had NO IDEA of table manners, wouldn't you point out what was
better and what was REALLY unacceptable? (And if you went to his native place
and ate with his grandmother, woudln't it be WAY kinder of him to brief you
beforehand of what is truly offensive table behavior that might be no big deal
here?)
-=-... or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?-=-
Did someone actually recommend that? That being (somehow, falsely,
infuriatingly) "non judgmental" could in ANY way increase trust? Strengthen
relationships. AID COMMUNICATION!???
What's there to communicate if there's no discussion of one thing being
better or worse than another? If there are no ideals, no joys, no successes, no
excitements over accomplishment, what's there to talk about?
-=-I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
-=-
Balance.
I think that's the answer.
Some people withhold what the child needs as punishment for bad approach, for
being demanding or grasping or whatever. Some people give the child the
thing no matter how he got it, and just look away contentedly. Neither is
good for relationships or trust or communications.
-=-
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed.-=-
Depending how strong the problem is and whether someone in the room has been
harmed (psychically, at least <g>), I might just let it go altogether until
we're on the way home or something, but there are some things I would even say
to an adult, and when a kid is old enough to understand hints or sarcasm or
humor, I might drop a clue in the presence of the others.
-=-There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life.-=-
Yes. Some parents don't have much interpersonal skill or awareness,
though, and what can be done in such cases? When cluelessness has a genetic
component too, THEN what?
-=- I'm not saying anything remotely close to offering etiquette lessons.-=-
Can something be "remotely close"? <g>
If so, I have very often offered something remotely close to etiquette
lessons.
--When Kirby and Marty went to their first funeral (and I wasn't going with
them), I briefed them on funeral etiquette, what to expect, what they might
say to the nearest older relatives (their friend's mom died).
--When Holly went to a mixed overnighter recently and had been told there
would be three other girls there, I asked her if she wanted motherly advice.
She said "If you feel like giving me some, I'm willing to listen." We were in
the car on the way, me her and Keith. She had known the host family (two
boys her age) for many years, and I told her she might not want to press that
point right off, but get to know the girls first. All we knew was they were
girls from two different middle schools. I told her briefly that it would be
good for her to show some interest in the girls themselves separate from their
friendships with the boys. She was really listening, because she understood
there might be some kind of schoolgirl thing she might have missed out on.
--Holly came home the other night and told me she felt bad because she had
embarrassed a boy. She saw her name written on his jeans and said "Why is my
name on your jeans?" He made a joke about it being "a typo for 'holey,' that
he had misspelled it, but she realized she had put him on the spot and wished
she hadn't later. We discussed how she might have gotten out of it or put
him more at ease. She wished really she just hadn't mentioned it.
-=-
I think it's possible to talk about an array of choices.-=-
Like The Terminator's pull-down menu. <g>
That's been a good model for me over the years as I've worked to become a
more understanding mom. Kids are familiar with the model from video games like
Harvest Moon and Knights of the Old Republic, where there are dialog options
from short lists, and your choice affects the next move.
-=- I think it's
possible and even beneficial to talk about them in terms of better
choices and worse choices.-=-
I really should transcribe the Peaceful Parenting tape. I am SO USED to cut
and paste that things not cut-and-pasteable irritate me now. <g> "Make the
better choice" is central to what I said there about people gradually becoming
the parents they can be, and NOBODY can aim straight to "the right choice"
because there are so many other variables all the time. But just because
there's no one single right choice does not even "remotely approach" saying
that there are no horribly wrong choices. There are tons of those.
Sandra
or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I see the issue on aI don't see how it can be avoided without just setting all the switches to
> continuum about whether or not judgment is useful or possible when
> relationships are the priority.
>
"don't care" and "don't know."
-=- The questions arise over whether to address the
*expression* of the need, whether to judge the *method* of meeting the
need, whether it is useful for a parent to *label* the behavior or the
choice in a particular instance as worse and whether to discuss better
possible choices in future similar situations.-=-
Someone sent me something a while back that was good (good meaning I judged
it good; good meaning I agreed with it <bwg>) parenting
discussion/advice/summary, and I was liking reading it, but near the end it said (to
whichever/whoever it was aimed at) not to worry about what other people thought about your
child. That was NOT (in my judgment good).
I was planning to come here and figure out how to bring that up. Maybe it's
not what Danielle's after discussing and maybe it is.
-=-In other words, is it productive parenting/ useful in an Unschooling
context to discuss choices on a better-worse continuum and help our
children find better tools to use in place of worse ones...-=-
I think YES, absolutely and unquestionably yes.
To do otherwise is cruel.
If you were hosting a visitor from a very different culture who didn't know
how to shake hands or otherwise greet people, would you not advise him? If
your visitor had NO IDEA of table manners, wouldn't you point out what was
better and what was REALLY unacceptable? (And if you went to his native place
and ate with his grandmother, woudln't it be WAY kinder of him to brief you
beforehand of what is truly offensive table behavior that might be no big deal
here?)
-=-... or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?-=-
Did someone actually recommend that? That being (somehow, falsely,
infuriatingly) "non judgmental" could in ANY way increase trust? Strengthen
relationships. AID COMMUNICATION!???
What's there to communicate if there's no discussion of one thing being
better or worse than another? If there are no ideals, no joys, no successes, no
excitements over accomplishment, what's there to talk about?
-=-I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
-=-
Balance.
I think that's the answer.
Some people withhold what the child needs as punishment for bad approach, for
being demanding or grasping or whatever. Some people give the child the
thing no matter how he got it, and just look away contentedly. Neither is
good for relationships or trust or communications.
-=-
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed.-=-
Depending how strong the problem is and whether someone in the room has been
harmed (psychically, at least <g>), I might just let it go altogether until
we're on the way home or something, but there are some things I would even say
to an adult, and when a kid is old enough to understand hints or sarcasm or
humor, I might drop a clue in the presence of the others.
-=-There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life.-=-
Yes. Some parents don't have much interpersonal skill or awareness,
though, and what can be done in such cases? When cluelessness has a genetic
component too, THEN what?
-=- I'm not saying anything remotely close to offering etiquette lessons.-=-
Can something be "remotely close"? <g>
If so, I have very often offered something remotely close to etiquette
lessons.
--When Kirby and Marty went to their first funeral (and I wasn't going with
them), I briefed them on funeral etiquette, what to expect, what they might
say to the nearest older relatives (their friend's mom died).
--When Holly went to a mixed overnighter recently and had been told there
would be three other girls there, I asked her if she wanted motherly advice.
She said "If you feel like giving me some, I'm willing to listen." We were in
the car on the way, me her and Keith. She had known the host family (two
boys her age) for many years, and I told her she might not want to press that
point right off, but get to know the girls first. All we knew was they were
girls from two different middle schools. I told her briefly that it would be
good for her to show some interest in the girls themselves separate from their
friendships with the boys. She was really listening, because she understood
there might be some kind of schoolgirl thing she might have missed out on.
--Holly came home the other night and told me she felt bad because she had
embarrassed a boy. She saw her name written on his jeans and said "Why is my
name on your jeans?" He made a joke about it being "a typo for 'holey,' that
he had misspelled it, but she realized she had put him on the spot and wished
she hadn't later. We discussed how she might have gotten out of it or put
him more at ease. She wished really she just hadn't mentioned it.
-=-
I think it's possible to talk about an array of choices.-=-
Like The Terminator's pull-down menu. <g>
That's been a good model for me over the years as I've worked to become a
more understanding mom. Kids are familiar with the model from video games like
Harvest Moon and Knights of the Old Republic, where there are dialog options
from short lists, and your choice affects the next move.
-=- I think it's
possible and even beneficial to talk about them in terms of better
choices and worse choices.-=-
I really should transcribe the Peaceful Parenting tape. I am SO USED to cut
and paste that things not cut-and-pasteable irritate me now. <g> "Make the
better choice" is central to what I said there about people gradually becoming
the parents they can be, and NOBODY can aim straight to "the right choice"
because there are so many other variables all the time. But just because
there's no one single right choice does not even "remotely approach" saying
that there are no horribly wrong choices. There are tons of those.
Sandra
or is any form
of judgment better/ worse likely to undermine trust, relationships and
communication?-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
SandraDodd@... wrote:
reading around a lot here over the years. Here's my whole post:
******"I've been trying to find a way to articulate this for a while,
and this seems like a window to me.
I believe the best approach is a two pronged effort where we focus on
the need behind the behavior as well as offering important information
and feedback as to the behavior as a choice of expression. People do
have a choice in how they express themselves and there are better and
worse ways to do that--better and worse in terms of Respect for the
other person, but also better and worse in terms of achieving a goal,
both of which I think need to be talked about. I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed. It's a delicate, situational balance that I try to strike.
But I truly believe that the discussion *needs* to happen at some point,
if not in the moment or as an immediate follow-up, then as a revisiting
(later in the day or week) or a reapplication (as in taking something
they can easily see in a tv show, for instance, and helping them apply
it to a recent incident in their own life). There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life. I'm not saying anything
remotely close to offering etiquette lessons. I'm talking about genuine
feedback as to our reactions, potential general reactions of others
outside the home, etc.
People have recently pointed out the problem with comparing children to
spouses, though I still think it holds up in terms of my treatment if
not their freedom of possibility in the wider world, but I think another
useful analogy, for me anyway, is the idea of a foreign traveler.
If a person came to visit us, putting us in a position of responsibility
as their host, and we continually focused only on meeting the need
rather than discussing the choice of expressing that need, chances are
we'd be doing that person a disservice. If, for instance, we focused
exclusively on the need, say operating an elevator, and we showed him
how to operate the elevator by pushing the appropriate button and giving
the corresponding numbers for the person's understanding, we would meet
the immediate need, and he'd likely know how to operate future elevators
just fine. Both useful services we've provided.
But, if we haven't addressed the notion of personal space and tone when
asking for help--expressing his need--then the next time that visitor
has a need he will be no better equipped to consider his expression or
to express it in the circumstances in which he finds himself. If it
happens with someone less generous or understanding, he could be open to
some rather negative reactions. We wouldn't be very good hosts if we
allowed that to happen through an error of omission, in my opinion. I
see my responsibility as a parent as even greater than my responsibility
as a host. "********
Rosenberg--Non-Violent Communication, and I believe that Alfie Kohn,
too, in his recent book _Unconditional Parenting_ makes the point that
it's not possible to judge the behavior without also judging the child.
So, much of this is the outgrowth of our book discussions, and several
people believe very strongly in these ideas. I, too, can see a certain
logic behind them--how blaming someone is not a good way to open
communication because it places in a position to either defend or
attack. But, I think that judgment itself can be used in productive ways
as well as non-productive ways, which is what I'm trying to get at, I
guess.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>Well, that's exactly the context in which I put it--probably from
> If you were hosting a visitor from a very different culture who didn't
> know
> how to shake hands or otherwise greet people, would you not advise
> him? If
> your visitor had NO IDEA of table manners, wouldn't you point out what
> was
> better and what was REALLY unacceptable? (And if you went to his
> native place
> and ate with his grandmother, woudln't it be WAY kinder of him to
> brief you
> beforehand of what is truly offensive table behavior that might be no
> big deal
> here?)
reading around a lot here over the years. Here's my whole post:
******"I've been trying to find a way to articulate this for a while,
and this seems like a window to me.
I believe the best approach is a two pronged effort where we focus on
the need behind the behavior as well as offering important information
and feedback as to the behavior as a choice of expression. People do
have a choice in how they express themselves and there are better and
worse ways to do that--better and worse in terms of Respect for the
other person, but also better and worse in terms of achieving a goal,
both of which I think need to be talked about. I think problems arise
with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
I totally agree that this discussion is not always best done in the
moment though there are times when it is and can be, at least, briefly
addressed. It's a delicate, situational balance that I try to strike.
But I truly believe that the discussion *needs* to happen at some point,
if not in the moment or as an immediate follow-up, then as a revisiting
(later in the day or week) or a reapplication (as in taking something
they can easily see in a tv show, for instance, and helping them apply
it to a recent incident in their own life). There are times when not
offering information as the opportunity naturally occurs, robs our
children of the chance to learn from life. I'm not saying anything
remotely close to offering etiquette lessons. I'm talking about genuine
feedback as to our reactions, potential general reactions of others
outside the home, etc.
People have recently pointed out the problem with comparing children to
spouses, though I still think it holds up in terms of my treatment if
not their freedom of possibility in the wider world, but I think another
useful analogy, for me anyway, is the idea of a foreign traveler.
If a person came to visit us, putting us in a position of responsibility
as their host, and we continually focused only on meeting the need
rather than discussing the choice of expressing that need, chances are
we'd be doing that person a disservice. If, for instance, we focused
exclusively on the need, say operating an elevator, and we showed him
how to operate the elevator by pushing the appropriate button and giving
the corresponding numbers for the person's understanding, we would meet
the immediate need, and he'd likely know how to operate future elevators
just fine. Both useful services we've provided.
But, if we haven't addressed the notion of personal space and tone when
asking for help--expressing his need--then the next time that visitor
has a need he will be no better equipped to consider his expression or
to express it in the circumstances in which he finds himself. If it
happens with someone less generous or understanding, he could be open to
some rather negative reactions. We wouldn't be very good hosts if we
allowed that to happen through an error of omission, in my opinion. I
see my responsibility as a parent as even greater than my responsibility
as a host. "********
> Did someone actually recommend that? That being (somehow, falsely,Well, much of this is based on the beliefs of Marshall
> infuriatingly) "non judgmental" could in ANY way increase trust?
> Strengthen
> relationships. AID COMMUNICATION!???
> What's there to communicate if there's no discussion of one thing being
> better or worse than another? If there are no ideals, no joys, no
> successes, no
> excitements over accomplishment, what's there to talk about?
Rosenberg--Non-Violent Communication, and I believe that Alfie Kohn,
too, in his recent book _Unconditional Parenting_ makes the point that
it's not possible to judge the behavior without also judging the child.
So, much of this is the outgrowth of our book discussions, and several
people believe very strongly in these ideas. I, too, can see a certain
logic behind them--how blaming someone is not a good way to open
communication because it places in a position to either defend or
attack. But, I think that judgment itself can be used in productive ways
as well as non-productive ways, which is what I'm trying to get at, I
guess.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
mamaaj2000
> -=-I think problems ariseYes. We're not talking about lecturing the child for 5 minutes for the
> with focusing exclusively on the behavior OR exclusively on the need.
> -=-
>
> Balance.
>
> I think that's the answer.
100th time on why such-and-such was rude and then sending the child
away "until you can be nice." It's about taking a few seconds to
remind someone that what they just did wasn't the best way to express
oneself. Now, let's reconnect and move forward.
Being able to give and take honest, gentle feedback is a wonderful
thing to model to our kids. Yes, as the big and powerful parents, we
have to be careful not to take advantage of our strength, but I'm not
too worried about unschooling parents doing that. I love to hear my
kids say to each other or to other people--kids and adults--"I didn't
like it when you..." and then move on. I'm still learning to stand up
for myself in small ways instead of keeping it inside and then running
away when really upset.
--aj
[email protected]
I love this topic.
our children have. We're their hosts, to a total degree when they're inside
us, and to a gradually lessening degree for many years after.
Some moms are better host(esse)s than others.
-=-Well, much of this is based on the beliefs of Marshall
Rosenberg--Non-Violent Communication, and I believe that Alfie Kohn,
too, in his recent book _Unconditional Parenting_ makes the point that
it's not possible to judge the behavior without also judging the child.-=-
Do those men have children?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-IBut similar, in that we've been in this culture and in this world longer than
> see my responsibility as a parent as even greater than my responsibility
> as a host.-=-
>
our children have. We're their hosts, to a total degree when they're inside
us, and to a gradually lessening degree for many years after.
Some moms are better host(esse)s than others.
-=-Well, much of this is based on the beliefs of Marshall
Rosenberg--Non-Violent Communication, and I believe that Alfie Kohn,
too, in his recent book _Unconditional Parenting_ makes the point that
it's not possible to judge the behavior without also judging the child.-=-
Do those men have children?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
SandraDodd@... wrote:
with a number of different philosophies jumbling together and even more
questions. :)
So, to continue... Another important part of the puzzle clicked for me
as I was laying in bed, unsuccessfully trying to turn off my brain and
fall asleep.
How do folks characterize their own mistakes?
When I make bad choices, and that's what I call them because I believe
we can all make bad choices in the moment and better ones in the next, I
apologize to my children for making a bad choice. I acknowledge what I
could have done better, what I hope to do next time, what I wish I had
done. We're all human; we all make bad choices from time to time, but
we're one step up if we can recognize that and see how to do better.
I'm really curious how folks apologize (assuming they do) and how they
characterize that apology if they don't pass judgment in some way on
their own actions. And if they do pass judgment on their own actions and
choices, do they believe their child(ren) picks up on that? Is there any
chance that the child may feel that reactions with them are not genuine
or authentic? I really think my children would pick up on the dichotomy
and it would just feel wrong.
I continue to come back to the fact that it feels disingenuous to me to
not talk about judgment.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
> I love this topic.I'm glad. I think it's very interesting, and it has my head swirling
with a number of different philosophies jumbling together and even more
questions. :)
So, to continue... Another important part of the puzzle clicked for me
as I was laying in bed, unsuccessfully trying to turn off my brain and
fall asleep.
How do folks characterize their own mistakes?
When I make bad choices, and that's what I call them because I believe
we can all make bad choices in the moment and better ones in the next, I
apologize to my children for making a bad choice. I acknowledge what I
could have done better, what I hope to do next time, what I wish I had
done. We're all human; we all make bad choices from time to time, but
we're one step up if we can recognize that and see how to do better.
I'm really curious how folks apologize (assuming they do) and how they
characterize that apology if they don't pass judgment in some way on
their own actions. And if they do pass judgment on their own actions and
choices, do they believe their child(ren) picks up on that? Is there any
chance that the child may feel that reactions with them are not genuine
or authentic? I really think my children would pick up on the dichotomy
and it would just feel wrong.
I continue to come back to the fact that it feels disingenuous to me to
not talk about judgment.
>yes.
> Do those men have children?
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/22/05 10:00:39 PM, danielle.conger@... writes:
I have a friend who's big into the non-violent communication books. She's
talked to me about it. It seems not genuine and not authentic.
For anyone to subscribe entirely to everything in ANY book is odd on several
levels. For one thing, our culture has a history of living by one book, and
that's the Bible. So we have a cultural history of "subscription." What are
you? That question can be answered with "a republican" or "a vegetarian" or
whateveer. But some books have come along and gotten followers, adherents,
etc. It shouldn't be about a book, a single individual book. Nobody who
loves and uses tools has just one single tool. If they decide a handsaw is the
best tool, do they get rid of all their other tools???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm really curious how folks apologize (assuming they do) and how they---------------
> characterize that apology if they don't pass judgment in some way on
> their own actions. And if they do pass judgment on their own actions and
> choices, do they believe their child(ren) picks up on that? Is there any
> chance that the child may feel that reactions with them are not genuine
> or authentic?
>
I have a friend who's big into the non-violent communication books. She's
talked to me about it. It seems not genuine and not authentic.
For anyone to subscribe entirely to everything in ANY book is odd on several
levels. For one thing, our culture has a history of living by one book, and
that's the Bible. So we have a cultural history of "subscription." What are
you? That question can be answered with "a republican" or "a vegetarian" or
whateveer. But some books have come along and gotten followers, adherents,
etc. It shouldn't be about a book, a single individual book. Nobody who
loves and uses tools has just one single tool. If they decide a handsaw is the
best tool, do they get rid of all their other tools???
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/23/2005 9:43:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
UnschoolingDiscussion writes:
do when they've discussed the "social niceties" and possible results if a
different route is chosen, and the behavior doesn't change? I'm not talking one
or two items, but most we discuss. Nix that-I talk about. He (6 year old)
listens and says he understands, but never asks questions-even to ask something
like, "Really? That happens?" or to say something like, "Oh, my friends would
never treat me like that!" I don't remind every time the situation comes up, but
every once in a while I will sit down and casually say something after the
fact. I've been at the point for a while of basically giving up-that maybe
experience in the world will show him... I hate to think I'm "putting him through"
that, and now that I've read the above statement, I'm wondering if there's
something else I might do, or maybe I'm taking the wrong angle or maybe not trying
enough? Its very hard for me to relate to my childhood, because I was very
controlled, and for a long time, I was a "pleaser", and would do anything asked
of me-whether it was indoctrinated or forced on me from toddlerhood or if that
was just my personality, I don't know, but it definitely didn't last into the
teen years. I've tried to raise him with confidence in himself, his choices,
his thoughts, his self-control or independence and he seems to be going along
fine with that. We are just so alike in so many ways, and yet had extremely
different-even opposite-upbrinings to this point in his life, that I cannot
relate to what he might be feeling or thinking. Any thoughts? I'd appreciate it!
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
UnschoolingDiscussion writes:
> <<If a mom doesn't know or care that her chld's actions are sociallyI've been puzzled for a while and am glad this came up... What is a parent to
> unacceptable, that makes her socially unacceptable too, and the two of them
>
> socially
> unacceptable to that group or individual making the judgment.
>
> It's pretty complicated. <g>
>
> Sandra>>
>
do when they've discussed the "social niceties" and possible results if a
different route is chosen, and the behavior doesn't change? I'm not talking one
or two items, but most we discuss. Nix that-I talk about. He (6 year old)
listens and says he understands, but never asks questions-even to ask something
like, "Really? That happens?" or to say something like, "Oh, my friends would
never treat me like that!" I don't remind every time the situation comes up, but
every once in a while I will sit down and casually say something after the
fact. I've been at the point for a while of basically giving up-that maybe
experience in the world will show him... I hate to think I'm "putting him through"
that, and now that I've read the above statement, I'm wondering if there's
something else I might do, or maybe I'm taking the wrong angle or maybe not trying
enough? Its very hard for me to relate to my childhood, because I was very
controlled, and for a long time, I was a "pleaser", and would do anything asked
of me-whether it was indoctrinated or forced on me from toddlerhood or if that
was just my personality, I don't know, but it definitely didn't last into the
teen years. I've tried to raise him with confidence in himself, his choices,
his thoughts, his self-control or independence and he seems to be going along
fine with that. We are just so alike in so many ways, and yet had extremely
different-even opposite-upbrinings to this point in his life, that I cannot
relate to what he might be feeling or thinking. Any thoughts? I'd appreciate it!
Peace,
Sang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
I want to apologize for that last cross post, where I discuss moral
conviction. It was a blunder of mine that it was sent to this list.
Please, feel free to discuss my ideas, but the OP should *not* have been
there.
I realize it's out there now, but I'd sure appreciate everyone's help
keeping my blunder as minimal as possible by not discussing the OP quoted.
Thanks! Won't happen again!
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
conviction. It was a blunder of mine that it was sent to this list.
Please, feel free to discuss my ideas, but the OP should *not* have been
there.
I realize it's out there now, but I'd sure appreciate everyone's help
keeping my blunder as minimal as possible by not discussing the OP quoted.
Thanks! Won't happen again!
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Angela S.
>to
> I've been puzzled for a while and am glad this came up... What is a parent
> do when they've discussed the "social niceties" and possible results if aDo you have a specific example?
> different route is chosen, and the behavior doesn't change
Angela
game-enthusiast@...