the problem with the list being quiet...
[email protected]
We have a policy of asking those who join the list to read for a couple of
weeks to get a feel for the tone and opinions and all. Someone who waited
over a week has asked the following question. I've removed names and am just
bringing the raw questions.
A whole week has passed without us discussing such things!? Yeah, it's
summer, but unschooling doesn't stop for the summer.
So...
What links and resources and responses are good for people with such
questions? Have at it:
====================================================
I have a question for all the seasoned unschoolers?
How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra or
Biology? I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make her
and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet. She never writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people. She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day. My
son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to 5.
What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about anything. I
even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something, nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.
HELP,,,,,, PLEASE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
weeks to get a feel for the tone and opinions and all. Someone who waited
over a week has asked the following question. I've removed names and am just
bringing the raw questions.
A whole week has passed without us discussing such things!? Yeah, it's
summer, but unschooling doesn't stop for the summer.
So...
What links and resources and responses are good for people with such
questions? Have at it:
====================================================
I have a question for all the seasoned unschoolers?
How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra or
Biology? I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make her
and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet. She never writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people. She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day. My
son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to 5.
What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about anything. I
even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something, nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.
HELP,,,,,, PLEASE
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
recently removed from institutional schooling or school-at-home? My
guess is they have been "schooling" in some form until now (or
pretty recently) since you "define" your DD as a "high school
junior" instead of a 16 yr old (or whatever age she is).
Next question: why is algebra or biology (or whatever) right now
important to -you-? Is it anything she can't do next week, next
year, 5 yrs from now? Does her brain have an "expiration date" when
no new learning can occur? Odds are, you're racing (mentally) to
when she gets to be 18 and goes to college and... but reality is she
*may* choose to postpone college and work. I've got a BS degree and
I've been in the "career world" for 20+ years and I've *never* used
my high school biology (except maybe playing trivia games and such)
and with a business/IS degree, didn't need much science in college
either (I can't remember ever taking a science course - maybe I did,
maybe I didn't, either way it means little if I can't remember it).
My DH went right from public high school to work - started with
stock boy and mailroom clerk type jobs through managing 2 or 3
people in a 'shop' environment for an office supply company to doing
high tech work at software companies(phone support, web design,
etc). A decade after high school, he choose to start college (as a
freshman) and tested out (via the CLEP tests) of ALL the 101
science, math, history, fine arts, and English courses - for a
little $ and a few hours of testing he ended up as a 2nd semester
sophomore after 1 semester of classwork. He said he knew most of the
stuff on the tests from living life and from watching Jeopardy and
playing Trivial Pursuit.
Odds are taking away the electronics then giving them back has led
to them spending MORE time on electronics just in case they get
taken away again (just guessing).
How do you know they have "zero curiosity about anything"? They
probably do - it's just not formed, communicated, packaged into
something that looks like a school subject. What are they watching?
What games are they playing? Have you sat with them and watched?
Asked about it (with TRUE interest) - what they are doing? what they
like? what they don't like? (most gamers have ideas about 'how I
would do it differently' as well as 'this is a really cool part').
Do you interact with them - bringing snacks perhaps, folding laundry
in the same room, *be*ing together?
Take a 'vacation' from 'school' thoughts and go do something fun for
yourself, ask what they might want to do that's fun (no fair
limiting things to 'educational') - a day at the skateboard park? a
trip to the store for a new game? a matinee movie? a picnic in the
living room? a whole day without mom hovering over them with a
worried look?
--Deb
> ====================================================First question: have they always been unschooled or are they
>
> I have a question for all the seasoned unschoolers?
>
> How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like
>Algebra or
> Biology? I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I
>make her
> and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet. She
>never writes
> a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-
> people. She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every
>day. My
> son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
>up to 5.
> What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about
>anything. I
> even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks
>hoping boredom
> would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore
>something, nope,
> they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.
>
>
> HELP,,,,,, PLEASE
recently removed from institutional schooling or school-at-home? My
guess is they have been "schooling" in some form until now (or
pretty recently) since you "define" your DD as a "high school
junior" instead of a 16 yr old (or whatever age she is).
Next question: why is algebra or biology (or whatever) right now
important to -you-? Is it anything she can't do next week, next
year, 5 yrs from now? Does her brain have an "expiration date" when
no new learning can occur? Odds are, you're racing (mentally) to
when she gets to be 18 and goes to college and... but reality is she
*may* choose to postpone college and work. I've got a BS degree and
I've been in the "career world" for 20+ years and I've *never* used
my high school biology (except maybe playing trivia games and such)
and with a business/IS degree, didn't need much science in college
either (I can't remember ever taking a science course - maybe I did,
maybe I didn't, either way it means little if I can't remember it).
My DH went right from public high school to work - started with
stock boy and mailroom clerk type jobs through managing 2 or 3
people in a 'shop' environment for an office supply company to doing
high tech work at software companies(phone support, web design,
etc). A decade after high school, he choose to start college (as a
freshman) and tested out (via the CLEP tests) of ALL the 101
science, math, history, fine arts, and English courses - for a
little $ and a few hours of testing he ended up as a 2nd semester
sophomore after 1 semester of classwork. He said he knew most of the
stuff on the tests from living life and from watching Jeopardy and
playing Trivial Pursuit.
Odds are taking away the electronics then giving them back has led
to them spending MORE time on electronics just in case they get
taken away again (just guessing).
How do you know they have "zero curiosity about anything"? They
probably do - it's just not formed, communicated, packaged into
something that looks like a school subject. What are they watching?
What games are they playing? Have you sat with them and watched?
Asked about it (with TRUE interest) - what they are doing? what they
like? what they don't like? (most gamers have ideas about 'how I
would do it differently' as well as 'this is a really cool part').
Do you interact with them - bringing snacks perhaps, folding laundry
in the same room, *be*ing together?
Take a 'vacation' from 'school' thoughts and go do something fun for
yourself, ask what they might want to do that's fun (no fair
limiting things to 'educational') - a day at the skateboard park? a
trip to the store for a new game? a matinee movie? a picnic in the
living room? a whole day without mom hovering over them with a
worried look?
--Deb
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
====================================================
I have a question for all the seasoned unschoolers?
How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra
or
Biology? I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make
her
and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet. She never
writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people. She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day.
My
son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to
5.
What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about anything. I
even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping
boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something,
nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, I think that my boys KNOW what they need. And because they've not
learned any different, they don't even know to hate some things.
Well, Cameron (17 and schooled for nine years) DID, but he's all healed
now and enjoys many different things---but that took time and patience.
First of all, we don't divide the world into subjects. Biology IS
algebra ID hstory IS language IS art. It's all related and
inter-related. My boys don't "do" algebra or biology, but those things
are huge parts of their lives because we see them in every day things.
Caring for our dogs and cats and rabbit and rats and bees---not to
mention ourSELVES!---IS biology. So's caring for our garden and
houseplants and the wild birds that we've really grown to know and
love. Cooking and grocery shopping is biology. Our visits to the doctor
this summer for strep and a bad reaction to a bee sting qualify as
biology too. We stopped to look at the armadillo on the side of the
road---armadillos are NOT local! We don't know how he got here!
Biology! Cooking a mushroom soufflee tonight for Ben's little Tour de
France party is biology. Watching all this rainfall and the jungle it's
turned our yard into----and keeping track of hurricanes that were
threatening our friends' homes---uh huh---that too!
I really don't know how my boys could avoid biology in their lives.
Seriously! And Animal Planet is FULL of biology! Duncan has collected
sooo much info from that channel! Things even I didn't know! Don't
under-estimate that!
As for algebra: what's that line you use, Sandra? Why do we need to
study algebra? Because it's part of our every day world? Well, then we
don't need to set up artificial algebra because it's naturally a part
of our every day world! If it weren't part of our world, why study it?
<bwg> We use algebra every day. It's simply figuring "x"---a variable.
I use variables to do almost everything! So do the boys. In almost
everything we do there's a variable! How we deal with that variable
proves how well we understand it. That's why schools use word problems!
Because we use them in real life every day! <g> The formula is EASY
after you understand the principle of variables!
I don't think Duncan (9) knows what the times tables are, but he knows
what eight sixes are---and thirteen sevens. He can figure it out
probably *because* he isn't familiar with the times tables. He's
figured his own algorithms. Don't ask me how. I'm still in the dark,
depending on my times tables! or my fingers. <bwg>
I don't refer to my children as "students"---they are nine and 17.
Haven't you heard? Grades are for meat and eggs, not children! <g>
How much writing do mine do? Very little, I guess. But what they DO
write is essential and meaningful. They can both write thank you notes.
They can write grocery lists. Cameron writes love letters to Carly and
keeps a sporadic journal. Duncan dictates wild, fun stories; he keeps a
journal too, but it's become filled more with artwork than words
lately. The big differnce here is that none of these things are
required, expected, or forced. They do these things because they are
important to my boys. Their writing has meaning to *them*.
Don't discount cartoons either!!! Duncan's vocabulary is HUGE because
of cartoons! First, with Ed, Edd, & Eddie---he learned many words that
most six-year-olds don't know! <g> Now, his favorites are: The
Simpsons, South Park, Futurama, and Family Guy. Because these are
soooooo incredibly current and in-your-face--and rather *adult*, we've
had all SORTS of discussions about all KINDS of topics---some which
many may not considder appropriate for a nine-year-old. But we talk a
LOT, and I answer many, many questions. And I LOVE TiVO!!! It makes
discussions of these shows so much easier!
Do you watch TV *with* them??? That makes a difference! Mine have so
many questions---and I know what interests them and how certain things
make them feel. Cameron is into That 70's Show. Hell, I LIVED That 70's
Show! <g> So that has brought up a lot of subjects and the history
(ugh!<g>) of my childhood!
The boys often join me and Ben while we're watching the Tour de France.
Cool things there to learn! History, geography, geometry, physics,
nutrition, statistics, sportmanship,...ALGEBRA! <g> All inter-related
in a bike race!
Are YOU fascinating? Are YOU curious? What do YOU do during the day?
Maybe they're simply following *your* lead and modelling *your*
behavior. I was recently described as a shark---if I stop moving, I'll
die! <g> I model that for my boys. Cameron is a bit more busy than
Duncan. But he's 17 and has wheels! And four jobs, a girlfriend, and a
band. For all of their lives, they've watched me be in "into" a zillion
things. I have a friend who is very sedentary: I really don't think she
should expect much more from her kids. Mine see "busy" and interested
and interesting as normal.
As for taking away their entertainment---that's just mean. I would
become angry and resentful if you did that to me. So---after you did
that, what did you offer them? To go out for Japanese food for lunch? A
trip to the beach with a picnic? To tie-dye shirts and sheets? Did you
toss a pork shoulder into the oven and have each of you make up
personal BBQ sauces? Did you do to Lowe's and pick out a new color of
paint to re-do their rooms? (That's also a sure-fire way to get a room
clean! My room is next on our list! <g>)
My guess is that you just left them to do nothing and expected them to
produce. Anger. Resentment. Fighting. Yep.
BE interesting! BE interested! BE curious! BE fascinating! BE *with*
them! DO *with* them! You don't get another chance! You're going to
miss them when they're gone! Have FUN....NOW!!!
Oh---and come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference near St
Louis October 6-9, 2005 and watch other unschoolers in action. Let them
see what they're missing. Let yourSELF see it!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: SandraDodd@...
====================================================
I have a question for all the seasoned unschoolers?
How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra
or
Biology? I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make
her
and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet. She never
writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people. She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day.
My
son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to
5.
What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about anything. I
even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping
boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something,
nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, I think that my boys KNOW what they need. And because they've not
learned any different, they don't even know to hate some things.
Well, Cameron (17 and schooled for nine years) DID, but he's all healed
now and enjoys many different things---but that took time and patience.
First of all, we don't divide the world into subjects. Biology IS
algebra ID hstory IS language IS art. It's all related and
inter-related. My boys don't "do" algebra or biology, but those things
are huge parts of their lives because we see them in every day things.
Caring for our dogs and cats and rabbit and rats and bees---not to
mention ourSELVES!---IS biology. So's caring for our garden and
houseplants and the wild birds that we've really grown to know and
love. Cooking and grocery shopping is biology. Our visits to the doctor
this summer for strep and a bad reaction to a bee sting qualify as
biology too. We stopped to look at the armadillo on the side of the
road---armadillos are NOT local! We don't know how he got here!
Biology! Cooking a mushroom soufflee tonight for Ben's little Tour de
France party is biology. Watching all this rainfall and the jungle it's
turned our yard into----and keeping track of hurricanes that were
threatening our friends' homes---uh huh---that too!
I really don't know how my boys could avoid biology in their lives.
Seriously! And Animal Planet is FULL of biology! Duncan has collected
sooo much info from that channel! Things even I didn't know! Don't
under-estimate that!
As for algebra: what's that line you use, Sandra? Why do we need to
study algebra? Because it's part of our every day world? Well, then we
don't need to set up artificial algebra because it's naturally a part
of our every day world! If it weren't part of our world, why study it?
<bwg> We use algebra every day. It's simply figuring "x"---a variable.
I use variables to do almost everything! So do the boys. In almost
everything we do there's a variable! How we deal with that variable
proves how well we understand it. That's why schools use word problems!
Because we use them in real life every day! <g> The formula is EASY
after you understand the principle of variables!
I don't think Duncan (9) knows what the times tables are, but he knows
what eight sixes are---and thirteen sevens. He can figure it out
probably *because* he isn't familiar with the times tables. He's
figured his own algorithms. Don't ask me how. I'm still in the dark,
depending on my times tables! or my fingers. <bwg>
I don't refer to my children as "students"---they are nine and 17.
Haven't you heard? Grades are for meat and eggs, not children! <g>
How much writing do mine do? Very little, I guess. But what they DO
write is essential and meaningful. They can both write thank you notes.
They can write grocery lists. Cameron writes love letters to Carly and
keeps a sporadic journal. Duncan dictates wild, fun stories; he keeps a
journal too, but it's become filled more with artwork than words
lately. The big differnce here is that none of these things are
required, expected, or forced. They do these things because they are
important to my boys. Their writing has meaning to *them*.
Don't discount cartoons either!!! Duncan's vocabulary is HUGE because
of cartoons! First, with Ed, Edd, & Eddie---he learned many words that
most six-year-olds don't know! <g> Now, his favorites are: The
Simpsons, South Park, Futurama, and Family Guy. Because these are
soooooo incredibly current and in-your-face--and rather *adult*, we've
had all SORTS of discussions about all KINDS of topics---some which
many may not considder appropriate for a nine-year-old. But we talk a
LOT, and I answer many, many questions. And I LOVE TiVO!!! It makes
discussions of these shows so much easier!
Do you watch TV *with* them??? That makes a difference! Mine have so
many questions---and I know what interests them and how certain things
make them feel. Cameron is into That 70's Show. Hell, I LIVED That 70's
Show! <g> So that has brought up a lot of subjects and the history
(ugh!<g>) of my childhood!
The boys often join me and Ben while we're watching the Tour de France.
Cool things there to learn! History, geography, geometry, physics,
nutrition, statistics, sportmanship,...ALGEBRA! <g> All inter-related
in a bike race!
Are YOU fascinating? Are YOU curious? What do YOU do during the day?
Maybe they're simply following *your* lead and modelling *your*
behavior. I was recently described as a shark---if I stop moving, I'll
die! <g> I model that for my boys. Cameron is a bit more busy than
Duncan. But he's 17 and has wheels! And four jobs, a girlfriend, and a
band. For all of their lives, they've watched me be in "into" a zillion
things. I have a friend who is very sedentary: I really don't think she
should expect much more from her kids. Mine see "busy" and interested
and interesting as normal.
As for taking away their entertainment---that's just mean. I would
become angry and resentful if you did that to me. So---after you did
that, what did you offer them? To go out for Japanese food for lunch? A
trip to the beach with a picnic? To tie-dye shirts and sheets? Did you
toss a pork shoulder into the oven and have each of you make up
personal BBQ sauces? Did you do to Lowe's and pick out a new color of
paint to re-do their rooms? (That's also a sure-fire way to get a room
clean! My room is next on our list! <g>)
My guess is that you just left them to do nothing and expected them to
produce. Anger. Resentment. Fighting. Yep.
BE interesting! BE interested! BE curious! BE fascinating! BE *with*
them! DO *with* them! You don't get another chance! You're going to
miss them when they're gone! Have FUN....NOW!!!
Oh---and come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference near St
Louis October 6-9, 2005 and watch other unschoolers in action. Let them
see what they're missing. Let yourSELF see it!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Elizabeth Hill
**I've been in the "career world" for 20+ years and I've *never* used
my high school biology **
I had a well-paid job in engineering for 12 years, and never took Biology in high school or college. Weird story, as I took "science" every year in high school. But I moved back and forth from my dad to my mom and my dad moved, so I went to three different high schools. When I was a sophmore my science class for the year was Health and Drivers Ed. Students at that school took Biology as Juniors. By the time I was a Junior, I was at a different school where Juniors took Chemistry, so I did.
Someday I may want to learn Biology, for my own satisfaction, or a future career, but I figure the field has changed amazingly since 1975, and some of the "facts" will be different now.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my high school biology **
I had a well-paid job in engineering for 12 years, and never took Biology in high school or college. Weird story, as I took "science" every year in high school. But I moved back and forth from my dad to my mom and my dad moved, so I went to three different high schools. When I was a sophmore my science class for the year was Health and Drivers Ed. Students at that school took Biology as Juniors. By the time I was a Junior, I was at a different school where Juniors took Chemistry, so I did.
Someday I may want to learn Biology, for my own satisfaction, or a future career, but I figure the field has changed amazingly since 1975, and some of the "facts" will be different now.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
** Now, his favorites are: The
Simpsons, South Park, Futurama, and Family Guy. Because these are
soooooo incredibly current and in-your-face--and rather *adult*, we've
had all SORTS of discussions about all KINDS of topics---some which
many may not considder appropriate for a nine-year-old. But we talk a
LOT, and I answer many, many questions. And I LOVE TiVO!!! **
We were watching a Tivo-ed Simpsons episode yesterday, and I explained a Boris Yeltsin reference. (Moe made Homer take a breathalyzer test before leaving the bar and "Boris Yeltsin" was the highest/drunkest score on the breath test.)
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Simpsons, South Park, Futurama, and Family Guy. Because these are
soooooo incredibly current and in-your-face--and rather *adult*, we've
had all SORTS of discussions about all KINDS of topics---some which
many may not considder appropriate for a nine-year-old. But we talk a
LOT, and I answer many, many questions. And I LOVE TiVO!!! **
We were watching a Tivo-ed Simpsons episode yesterday, and I explained a Boris Yeltsin reference. (Moe made Homer take a breathalyzer test before leaving the bar and "Boris Yeltsin" was the highest/drunkest score on the breath test.)
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jul 15, 2005, at 7:04 AM, soggyboysmom wrote:
games that are similar - find out if there are online multiplayer
versions - make connections to the game - spinoff movies? . Maybe see
if there are any video game conventions around that she'd enjoy - plan
a trip. SUPPORT her interests and broaden her horizons by building off
of her interests.
(Parents need to read the video game section of Sandra's website.)
Cartoons - this is just TOO easy. Watch them with her, first of all.
Talk about them. Cartoons are filled with allusions to all kinds of
history and geography and sociology and often politics, too. Notice
which cartoons she seems to enjoy - learn about those a bit so you can
share a little information. RENT cartoons - get into them. Expand the
interest in cartoons to include all kinds of animated stuff -- have you
see Spirited Away? It is incredible! Kiki's Delivery Service, too.
Watch The Simpsons and King of the Hill and Futurama -- all animated -
all FILLED with social commentary, horizon-broadening material.
AND - plan a vacation to Los Angeles or New York to visit the Museum of
Television and Radio -- you can visit Nickelodeon Studios, Disney
Studios, etc.
AND - once you start supporting your kids - be FLEXIBLE - don't get
your heart set on them being fascinated by cartoons and animation, it
might turn out that they're not at all interested. It might turn out
that while you're in the middle of planning that trip, looking at
information about Los Angeles, that they get excited about, say,
amusement parks, or the beach, or Hollywood, or whatever -- so GO with
it.
But -- I'm cringing thinking that they're probably seeing their choices
as veg out in front of the tv versus do algebra or biology or memorize
times tables.
Maybe a concrete example would be good --
Kids are watching cartoons - you sit down and watch with them. Say
they're watching Yogi Bear <G>. You say, "You know Jellystone Park is
really based on Yellowstone Park - we should go there someday." Or you
say, "I went to Yellowstone Park once - and the bears were all lined up
along the road into the park, begging for food. Some people actually
lowered their car windows and handed them food."
That's all. Unless it just happens that you see a spark of interest -
or unless one of the kids asks a question - or unless you think they'd
be INTERESTED in knowing about the geysers there. And so if you tell
them about Old Faithful -- you can wonder out loud if any of that
geothermal energy is being used to make electricity.
You don't have to RESEARCH all this - and you don't have to say what I
just said. And you don't have to go get them a book on Yellowstone to
read or build a model of a geyser out of papier-mache, or explain to
them how geothermal energy is used to make electricity or anything else
- you can just allude to things - just mention little bits of related
"trivia" that you might happen to know and think of while watching
cartoons with your kids. BUT don't interrupt the cartoons - I mean
don't be annoying.
You have to judge how much to say, how far to take things.
But the point is that it really truly doesn't matter WHAT the kids are
into - watching tv and playing computer games is fine! It is how well
the parents are able to create a rich environment that supports and
expands on and respects and builds on the kids' interests that makes
for a great unschooling life.
Or - think about other aspects of life. They do EAT right? So - bring
home something unusual from the grocery store. "Look at this, guys! It
is a fruit from south america that I've never had before." They don't
have to TASTE it - just introduce it to them. Now they know that there
are things in the grocery store they didn't know about before, that
fruit might come from South America and that the US imports food.
Yesterday I saw a guy on the street corner selling coconuts - he'd
drilled a hole in them and there was a straw sticking out. I should
stop and buy one and bring it home. And I should just mention that a
coconut is grass seed. And we should talk about where they guy on the
street corner got it and why he's selling them on the street corner and
that when I was growing up NOBODY sold anything on street corners.
Or not. If we're in the middle of a fascinating conversation about
fashion or cartoons or something else, I might not want to interrupt
that with stopping to buy a coconut right then.
Oh - but, for kids interested in cartoons, maybe get started watching
all the Disney movies! Plan a trip to Disneyland and go to California
Adventure where they have a huge Animation area - with lots of
activities related to making animated movies. And, at Disneyland, go
into the little theater that shows the very earliest silent cartoons
with Steamboat Willie and so on. It is great.
I just sounds like mom is not doing HER job as an unschooling parent -
like she's waiting around for the kids to get tired of tv and say,
"Mom, I want an algebra book."
THAT can happen - it happened at my house. But only when algebra was
something that came up in the swirl of everything else, just one more
really interesting thing along with cartoons and video games.
-pam
>> She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day everyI'd encourage the computer game - learn something about it - find other
>> day. My son is following her lead.
games that are similar - find out if there are online multiplayer
versions - make connections to the game - spinoff movies? . Maybe see
if there are any video game conventions around that she'd enjoy - plan
a trip. SUPPORT her interests and broaden her horizons by building off
of her interests.
(Parents need to read the video game section of Sandra's website.)
Cartoons - this is just TOO easy. Watch them with her, first of all.
Talk about them. Cartoons are filled with allusions to all kinds of
history and geography and sociology and often politics, too. Notice
which cartoons she seems to enjoy - learn about those a bit so you can
share a little information. RENT cartoons - get into them. Expand the
interest in cartoons to include all kinds of animated stuff -- have you
see Spirited Away? It is incredible! Kiki's Delivery Service, too.
Watch The Simpsons and King of the Hill and Futurama -- all animated -
all FILLED with social commentary, horizon-broadening material.
AND - plan a vacation to Los Angeles or New York to visit the Museum of
Television and Radio -- you can visit Nickelodeon Studios, Disney
Studios, etc.
AND - once you start supporting your kids - be FLEXIBLE - don't get
your heart set on them being fascinated by cartoons and animation, it
might turn out that they're not at all interested. It might turn out
that while you're in the middle of planning that trip, looking at
information about Los Angeles, that they get excited about, say,
amusement parks, or the beach, or Hollywood, or whatever -- so GO with
it.
But -- I'm cringing thinking that they're probably seeing their choices
as veg out in front of the tv versus do algebra or biology or memorize
times tables.
Maybe a concrete example would be good --
Kids are watching cartoons - you sit down and watch with them. Say
they're watching Yogi Bear <G>. You say, "You know Jellystone Park is
really based on Yellowstone Park - we should go there someday." Or you
say, "I went to Yellowstone Park once - and the bears were all lined up
along the road into the park, begging for food. Some people actually
lowered their car windows and handed them food."
That's all. Unless it just happens that you see a spark of interest -
or unless one of the kids asks a question - or unless you think they'd
be INTERESTED in knowing about the geysers there. And so if you tell
them about Old Faithful -- you can wonder out loud if any of that
geothermal energy is being used to make electricity.
You don't have to RESEARCH all this - and you don't have to say what I
just said. And you don't have to go get them a book on Yellowstone to
read or build a model of a geyser out of papier-mache, or explain to
them how geothermal energy is used to make electricity or anything else
- you can just allude to things - just mention little bits of related
"trivia" that you might happen to know and think of while watching
cartoons with your kids. BUT don't interrupt the cartoons - I mean
don't be annoying.
You have to judge how much to say, how far to take things.
But the point is that it really truly doesn't matter WHAT the kids are
into - watching tv and playing computer games is fine! It is how well
the parents are able to create a rich environment that supports and
expands on and respects and builds on the kids' interests that makes
for a great unschooling life.
Or - think about other aspects of life. They do EAT right? So - bring
home something unusual from the grocery store. "Look at this, guys! It
is a fruit from south america that I've never had before." They don't
have to TASTE it - just introduce it to them. Now they know that there
are things in the grocery store they didn't know about before, that
fruit might come from South America and that the US imports food.
Yesterday I saw a guy on the street corner selling coconuts - he'd
drilled a hole in them and there was a straw sticking out. I should
stop and buy one and bring it home. And I should just mention that a
coconut is grass seed. And we should talk about where they guy on the
street corner got it and why he's selling them on the street corner and
that when I was growing up NOBODY sold anything on street corners.
Or not. If we're in the middle of a fascinating conversation about
fashion or cartoons or something else, I might not want to interrupt
that with stopping to buy a coconut right then.
Oh - but, for kids interested in cartoons, maybe get started watching
all the Disney movies! Plan a trip to Disneyland and go to California
Adventure where they have a huge Animation area - with lots of
activities related to making animated movies. And, at Disneyland, go
into the little theater that shows the very earliest silent cartoons
with Steamboat Willie and so on. It is great.
I just sounds like mom is not doing HER job as an unschooling parent -
like she's waiting around for the kids to get tired of tv and say,
"Mom, I want an algebra book."
THAT can happen - it happened at my house. But only when algebra was
something that came up in the swirl of everything else, just one more
really interesting thing along with cartoons and video games.
-pam
K Krejci
We just had a night with King of the Hill where I got
to explain why Luanne's chest jiggled, why Boomhauer,
Dale and Bill were in a mental institution and why
Connie's parents freaked out over Bobby being in her
bedroom with his shirt off.
I think the best part is framing things so a 6
year-old gets his curiosity satisfied without throwing
in excessive judgements. It's a real exercise in
thinking, listening and speaking. Plus it makes me
think about the show instead of just passively
chuckling at the situations. I actually enjoyed the
brain exercise :)
It was completely enjoyable all the way around!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
to explain why Luanne's chest jiggled, why Boomhauer,
Dale and Bill were in a mental institution and why
Connie's parents freaked out over Bobby being in her
bedroom with his shirt off.
I think the best part is framing things so a 6
year-old gets his curiosity satisfied without throwing
in excessive judgements. It's a real exercise in
thinking, listening and speaking. Plus it makes me
think about the show instead of just passively
chuckling at the situations. I actually enjoyed the
brain exercise :)
It was completely enjoyable all the way around!
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Deb Lewis
***How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra
or
Biology? ***
I think you may be confused about what unschooling is. It's not a
method of schooling at home. I recommend you read the introduction to
this list which briefly explains unschooling. Read at
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and read at www.unschooling.info you
can read the message boards and a collection of articles and posts.
Unschooling is not schooling. Unschoolers don't school their children at
home. Unschoolers believe learning is a natural part of living life.
Unschoolers provide their children with an interesting environment and
interesting opportunities and do not make their children study formal
academics.
***How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra
or
Biology? ***
I'm forty two and can't recall the last time I *needed* algebra or
biology. I believe the only person qualified to determine what my son
needs (and what he will need in the future) is my son. I came to believe
this after examining my own schooling and after talking with many people
who went to school and after reading for years about school, learning and
unschooling.
So I would not try to get my kid to do something he hated. I think
that's an unhealthy practice. There are probably a lot of reasons people
become full of hate and being forced to do what one doesn't want to is a
big one.
***She never writes a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't
even IM or e-mail
people.***
Neither does my husband. He never learned to type and e-mail and IM
don't interest him. We got a microphone for our computer and he can IM
his sister in Germany via voice. My husband can write, he just rarely
has a reason to. His job requires little writing. He has a good life in
spite of not keeping a journal, not writing letters. He knows the
secret. Talk! Telephone!
***She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day.***
If she's doing those things because she's interested in them then she's
doing fine. If she's doing them because they're the best things
available right now, make more things available. Go places, experience
new things, get busy.
***My son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
up to 5.***
Neither can I and since leaving school I've never been required to do so.
Not once has my life been in jeopardy nor my fiendish plans foiled
because I couldn't recite times tables. My son is thirteen and cannot
recite the multiplication tables. He has never needed to. The only time
people ever have to do that is in school. If your children are not in
school, forget about memorizing multiplication tables. My son can
multiply though and keeps score in cribbage and other games where
multiplication is the fastest way to confirm he's winning. <g>
***What am I doing wrong?***
You're thinking like school. You don't have to think like school when
you're kids are home. Live like you never heard of school. Do things
with your kids, enjoy them, make life interesting.
***My children have zero curiosity about anything. ***
You just told us they like video games and cartoons. Do you mean
they're not curious about things you'd like them to be curious about?
It's not the same thing. My son is not at all interested in algebra but
he is interested in movies and cartoons, WWII, insects, fine art,
animals, driving, hiking, music, cooking...
***I even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping
boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something, nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.***
I'd be pretty angry if someone took away the things I really liked. I
think your kids responded in a normal way when they tried to escape a sad
and dull period in life with sleep and I think you're lucky they didn't
try to escape with something else.
You wanted their world to be bigger so you made it smaller. That doesn't
make any sense at all.
People are rarely inspired by punishment. If you'd like them to have a
broader world provide more, not less. Be inspiring.
Deb L
or
Biology? ***
I think you may be confused about what unschooling is. It's not a
method of schooling at home. I recommend you read the introduction to
this list which briefly explains unschooling. Read at
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and read at www.unschooling.info you
can read the message boards and a collection of articles and posts.
Unschooling is not schooling. Unschoolers don't school their children at
home. Unschoolers believe learning is a natural part of living life.
Unschoolers provide their children with an interesting environment and
interesting opportunities and do not make their children study formal
academics.
***How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like Algebra
or
Biology? ***
I'm forty two and can't recall the last time I *needed* algebra or
biology. I believe the only person qualified to determine what my son
needs (and what he will need in the future) is my son. I came to believe
this after examining my own schooling and after talking with many people
who went to school and after reading for years about school, learning and
unschooling.
So I would not try to get my kid to do something he hated. I think
that's an unhealthy practice. There are probably a lot of reasons people
become full of hate and being forced to do what one doesn't want to is a
big one.
***She never writes a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't
even IM or e-mail
people.***
Neither does my husband. He never learned to type and e-mail and IM
don't interest him. We got a microphone for our computer and he can IM
his sister in Germany via voice. My husband can write, he just rarely
has a reason to. His job requires little writing. He has a good life in
spite of not keeping a journal, not writing letters. He knows the
secret. Talk! Telephone!
***She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day.***
If she's doing those things because she's interested in them then she's
doing fine. If she's doing them because they're the best things
available right now, make more things available. Go places, experience
new things, get busy.
***My son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
up to 5.***
Neither can I and since leaving school I've never been required to do so.
Not once has my life been in jeopardy nor my fiendish plans foiled
because I couldn't recite times tables. My son is thirteen and cannot
recite the multiplication tables. He has never needed to. The only time
people ever have to do that is in school. If your children are not in
school, forget about memorizing multiplication tables. My son can
multiply though and keeps score in cribbage and other games where
multiplication is the fastest way to confirm he's winning. <g>
***What am I doing wrong?***
You're thinking like school. You don't have to think like school when
you're kids are home. Live like you never heard of school. Do things
with your kids, enjoy them, make life interesting.
***My children have zero curiosity about anything. ***
You just told us they like video games and cartoons. Do you mean
they're not curious about things you'd like them to be curious about?
It's not the same thing. My son is not at all interested in algebra but
he is interested in movies and cartoons, WWII, insects, fine art,
animals, driving, hiking, music, cooking...
***I even took all electronic gadgets away from them for two weeks hoping
boredom
would make them pick up a book or go outside and explore something, nope,
they slept or fought until I couldn't take it anymore.***
I'd be pretty angry if someone took away the things I really liked. I
think your kids responded in a normal way when they tried to escape a sad
and dull period in life with sleep and I think you're lucky they didn't
try to escape with something else.
You wanted their world to be bigger so you made it smaller. That doesn't
make any sense at all.
People are rarely inspired by punishment. If you'd like them to have a
broader world provide more, not less. Be inspiring.
Deb L
Katy Jennings
<<I'm forty two and can't recall the last time I *needed* algebra or biology. >>
I use algebra and biology almost daily, but I didn't learn any of it until after I graduated high school. Some of it I learned in college, some in job training courses, most on my own just because I liked it. I am great at calculus, algebra, geometry, etc, but I am terrible at arithmetic. I don't think I remember most of the times tables. My son though, is great at it. He plays YuGiOh a lot and keeps score, it gets pretty complicated. He figures out things in his head that I have to pull out a calculator to do. If they need it they will learn it.
Katy J.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I use algebra and biology almost daily, but I didn't learn any of it until after I graduated high school. Some of it I learned in college, some in job training courses, most on my own just because I liked it. I am great at calculus, algebra, geometry, etc, but I am terrible at arithmetic. I don't think I remember most of the times tables. My son though, is great at it. He plays YuGiOh a lot and keeps score, it gets pretty complicated. He figures out things in his head that I have to pull out a calculator to do. If they need it they will learn it.
Katy J.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brandie
***My son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
up to 5.***
I just had to jump in here -- I don't and never have had my times tables memorized. As a child, I was a solid A and B student, was always on the honor roll, and took algebra, geometry, and more -- so by school standards, a good student.
I knew *how* to get to the answer (somewhere along the way I figured that out), but I didn't have them memorized at all. Sure, some I know easily and by memory, but not all.
I have lived a wonderfully rich life, which I am sure you want for your son -- not knowing my times tables has never prevented me from doing that.
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
up to 5.***
I just had to jump in here -- I don't and never have had my times tables memorized. As a child, I was a solid A and B student, was always on the honor roll, and took algebra, geometry, and more -- so by school standards, a good student.
I knew *how* to get to the answer (somewhere along the way I figured that out), but I didn't have them memorized at all. Sure, some I know easily and by memory, but not all.
I have lived a wonderfully rich life, which I am sure you want for your son -- not knowing my times tables has never prevented me from doing that.
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
My initial response was really snarky, but I have toned it back (I hope)....
<<<<<How do you get your kids to do things they hate>>>>
I don't generally - but I am shortly going to post about a medical situation
that has stretched our commitment to respectful parenting.
<<<< but need, like Algebra or
Biology?>>>>
They don't (yet) or they would seek to discover it.
<<<<<I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make her>>>>
Then she is learning: that you can make her do stuff she hates, and since
you are making her then it must be difficult or dull stuff she should hate,
so she may never not hate it.
This unfortunate logic can extend to all sorts of "subjects" that you feel
called to impose, some of which may actually be more useful to most people
than Algebra. BTW if she already gets the concepts she doesn't need to
continue to explore it unless she really digs it for reasons of her own.
"It" can be anything. Forced drill detracts from anyone's ability to get the
concepts.
<<<<<and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet.>>>>>
It would count *if* I were keeping score, which I am freed of by living in a
non-assessing State. But who is choosing that channel? You, because you are
in an "at least this is educational" mindset, or her because she genuinely
likes the programming.
<<<< She never writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people.>>>>>
All of these are essentially private or personal communications. Maybe she
doesn't because she fears she would be required to share them.
<<<<< She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day. >>>>>
Envious?
Seriously though, it sounds like a fairly typical deschooling process
continuing.
<<<<< My son is following her lead.>>>>>
How nice for you to have siblings who like each other. How nice for a
younger boy to admire his big sister. How nice for them to have shared
interests.
<<<<< He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to 5.>>>>>
What is magic about the number 5 in this context? I suggest a calculator if
he is wanting to do math - and for you: patience while he plays computer
games and one day suddenly "gets" the usefulness of multiplication.
<<<<<What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about
anything.>>>>>
Judging your children and seeing them in negative terms.
Seeing the world through a schoolish lens - expecting curiosity to manifest
in schoolish looking ways.
<<<<< I even took all electronic gadgets away from them >>>>>
Another answer to your last question.
<<<< for two weeks >>>>
What is special about 2 weeks? All this has done is insert a giant snake
into the snakes and ladders game that is deschooling. 2 weeks to remove any
trust and empathy that you may have built up with each other.
<<<< hoping boredom >>>
Unschooling is about facilitating what your children want to do and how they
want to spend their time, not placing barriers in their way.
<<<<would make them>>>>
I don't try to "make" my dd do activities, either coercively or through
subtle manipulation.
Something that occurs to me here is that while ever you are living in this
judgmental headspace, it will be tough for you to let go of control as a
broader paradigm. For example now you want them to "pick up a book". Suppose
they start to do so. The next phase for a controller is to start judging the
quality, or worthiness, or educational value of the books they are choosing.
There will always be something else to want to take control of.
Without exploring the wider idea of Trust and examining the way people learn
best, in other words researching Unschooling more, it will be tough to let
go of the fears in your mind and heart that are prompting a desire to manage
and control.
<<<<< pick up a book or go outside and explore something >>>>>
They were exploring the computer games. They were exploring Popular Culture
via the TV.
How hot and glaringly sunny or muggy or dry is it outside in your town? How
much time did you spend engaging in your own interests outside, or exploring
new ones while they were both pleasantly occupied on the computer?
If you want them to get outside, one good way is to be so interesting to
them, and for what you are doing outside to be so interesting, that they
choose to spend time with you there.
<<<< they slept >>>>>
They may have needed the escape time for uninterrupted dreaming and mental
consolidation - or a kind of personal rebellion and withdrawal.
<<<<< or fought >>>>>
This is one of the most unfortunate parts of the experience. The friendly
relationship that they apparently had before has been eroded a bit.
Fortunately these setbacks can all temporary. You could start by apologizing
for not trusting them and trying to take back control of their time.
<<<<< HELP,,,,,, PLEASE >>>>
My best suggestion concurs with some others that you have received which is
to focus on your own learning, your own attitudes and your own actions and
to research more about Unschooling and think about your goals. The goal of
Unschooling is not an education that resembles a High School transcript or
even covers the usual curriculum but via a different route. The goal, or I
should say one of the main goals, of Unschooling is to create an enhanced,
close relationship between us and our kids.
Suppose you spend the next month reading all you can about Unschooling, from
positive rather than critical sources, and just let your kids spend their
time as they wish without making suggestions to them. Even if at the end of
that you are not convinced that it is a great lifestyle, all you have "lost"
is a month over the summer.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 7/15/2005
<<<<<How do you get your kids to do things they hate>>>>
I don't generally - but I am shortly going to post about a medical situation
that has stretched our commitment to respectful parenting.
<<<< but need, like Algebra or
Biology?>>>>
They don't (yet) or they would seek to discover it.
<<<<<I have a high school junior who only does Algebra when I make her>>>>
Then she is learning: that you can make her do stuff she hates, and since
you are making her then it must be difficult or dull stuff she should hate,
so she may never not hate it.
This unfortunate logic can extend to all sorts of "subjects" that you feel
called to impose, some of which may actually be more useful to most people
than Algebra. BTW if she already gets the concepts she doesn't need to
continue to explore it unless she really digs it for reasons of her own.
"It" can be anything. Forced drill detracts from anyone's ability to get the
concepts.
<<<<<and only does Biology if you count watching Animal Planet.>>>>>
It would count *if* I were keeping score, which I am freed of by living in a
non-assessing State. But who is choosing that channel? You, because you are
in an "at least this is educational" mindset, or her because she genuinely
likes the programming.
<<<< She never writes
a sentence. No journal, no letters, heck she doesn't even IM or e-mail
people.>>>>>
All of these are essentially private or personal communications. Maybe she
doesn't because she fears she would be required to share them.
<<<<< She play a computer game or watches cartoon all day every day. >>>>>
Envious?
Seriously though, it sounds like a fairly typical deschooling process
continuing.
<<<<< My son is following her lead.>>>>>
How nice for you to have siblings who like each other. How nice for a
younger boy to admire his big sister. How nice for them to have shared
interests.
<<<<< He's 11 and can't say his times tables up to 5.>>>>>
What is magic about the number 5 in this context? I suggest a calculator if
he is wanting to do math - and for you: patience while he plays computer
games and one day suddenly "gets" the usefulness of multiplication.
<<<<<What am I doing wrong? My children have zero curiosity about
anything.>>>>>
Judging your children and seeing them in negative terms.
Seeing the world through a schoolish lens - expecting curiosity to manifest
in schoolish looking ways.
<<<<< I even took all electronic gadgets away from them >>>>>
Another answer to your last question.
<<<< for two weeks >>>>
What is special about 2 weeks? All this has done is insert a giant snake
into the snakes and ladders game that is deschooling. 2 weeks to remove any
trust and empathy that you may have built up with each other.
<<<< hoping boredom >>>
Unschooling is about facilitating what your children want to do and how they
want to spend their time, not placing barriers in their way.
<<<<would make them>>>>
I don't try to "make" my dd do activities, either coercively or through
subtle manipulation.
Something that occurs to me here is that while ever you are living in this
judgmental headspace, it will be tough for you to let go of control as a
broader paradigm. For example now you want them to "pick up a book". Suppose
they start to do so. The next phase for a controller is to start judging the
quality, or worthiness, or educational value of the books they are choosing.
There will always be something else to want to take control of.
Without exploring the wider idea of Trust and examining the way people learn
best, in other words researching Unschooling more, it will be tough to let
go of the fears in your mind and heart that are prompting a desire to manage
and control.
<<<<< pick up a book or go outside and explore something >>>>>
They were exploring the computer games. They were exploring Popular Culture
via the TV.
How hot and glaringly sunny or muggy or dry is it outside in your town? How
much time did you spend engaging in your own interests outside, or exploring
new ones while they were both pleasantly occupied on the computer?
If you want them to get outside, one good way is to be so interesting to
them, and for what you are doing outside to be so interesting, that they
choose to spend time with you there.
<<<< they slept >>>>>
They may have needed the escape time for uninterrupted dreaming and mental
consolidation - or a kind of personal rebellion and withdrawal.
<<<<< or fought >>>>>
This is one of the most unfortunate parts of the experience. The friendly
relationship that they apparently had before has been eroded a bit.
Fortunately these setbacks can all temporary. You could start by apologizing
for not trusting them and trying to take back control of their time.
<<<<< HELP,,,,,, PLEASE >>>>
My best suggestion concurs with some others that you have received which is
to focus on your own learning, your own attitudes and your own actions and
to research more about Unschooling and think about your goals. The goal of
Unschooling is not an education that resembles a High School transcript or
even covers the usual curriculum but via a different route. The goal, or I
should say one of the main goals, of Unschooling is to create an enhanced,
close relationship between us and our kids.
Suppose you spend the next month reading all you can about Unschooling, from
positive rather than critical sources, and just let your kids spend their
time as they wish without making suggestions to them. Even if at the end of
that you are not convinced that it is a great lifestyle, all you have "lost"
is a month over the summer.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 7/15/2005
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
==How do you get your kids to do things they hate but need, like
Algebra <snip> She play a computer game==
You've already gotten great responses to this, so I'll just point this
out. Programmers can't build computer games and video games without
mathmatical and logical concepts. Those concepts are often built into
the game play. My son (8 y.o.) understands "math" (though we usually
don't call it that) at a *much* higher level than his "grade-level"
peers often do. But he doesn't know his times tables. He does know
multiplication, and uses it.
My son has done algebra, he just didn't know it was algebra. It wasn't
while he was sitting down with a textbook and paper and pencil, it was
within a nice conversation we were having at the kitchen table. The
way he talked about it let me know that he'd been thinking about it
for a while, working it out, and now he was ready to share it with me
and check it against my experience. It was in relation to his
Pokemon's stats in his video game.
I think computer games and video games help along a very systemic
understanding of math -- as in, the numbers, stats, scores, formulas
for game reactions and such are all interrelated and the player starts
to comprehend them that way, holistically.
So make sure to bring those electronics back. How else will they learn
the math they need? <G>
If you haven't read Sandra's games pages yet, do so.
http://www.sandradodd.com/games/page.html
Especially check out the article and book by Steven Johnson for some
recent scientific research on how computer games make you smarter.
Peace,
Amy
momwlol41 momwlol41
I have to agree with you on this. The simple ones I know by memorization But the harder one I have to work out. I know how to work them out and that's all that matters to me. I know how to work the problem and find the answer. If my son decides to go this way, Without memorizing each one, In my opinion, That's the way it should be.
Brandie <scrapdiva73@...> wrote: ***My son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
up to 5.***
I just had to jump in here -- I don't and never have had my times tables memorized. As a child, I was a solid A and B student, was always on the honor roll, and took algebra, geometry, and more -- so by school standards, a good student.
I knew *how* to get to the answer (somewhere along the way I figured that out), but I didn't have them memorized at all. Sure, some I know easily and by memory, but not all.
I have lived a wonderfully rich life, which I am sure you want for your son -- not knowing my times tables has never prevented me from doing that.
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brandie <scrapdiva73@...> wrote: ***My son is following her lead. He's 11 and can't say his times tables
up to 5.***
I just had to jump in here -- I don't and never have had my times tables memorized. As a child, I was a solid A and B student, was always on the honor roll, and took algebra, geometry, and more -- so by school standards, a good student.
I knew *how* to get to the answer (somewhere along the way I figured that out), but I didn't have them memorized at all. Sure, some I know easily and by memory, but not all.
I have lived a wonderfully rich life, which I am sure you want for your son -- not knowing my times tables has never prevented me from doing that.
Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
ALLIE CAT
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/15/05 11:16:33 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
questions, I NEVER do a full page of practice equations, nor even just the odd
numbered one. But I use it when I figure out how much material or tile to buy or
how many of something I can get with the money I have and when I figure out how
to make vines root better in water or how to water a tree that's sick (how are
that tree's roots structured? Watering right by the trunk almost never
helps, yet my college-educated renters dug little pits around the trunks of our
trees over there and water the trunks).
Very often when someone refers to "using chemistry" they mean "to get high
test scores and take more chemistry classes," and they never use it themselves
much. When I clean my hottub, I think of what I know of the microscopic
realities of wood and whether this is going to be a just-bleach-water cleaning or
whether for one factor or another it might be a 409 or soap week.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm forty two and can't recall the last time I *needed* algebra orI use them all the time, but I don't read the chapter and answer the
> biology.
>
questions, I NEVER do a full page of practice equations, nor even just the odd
numbered one. But I use it when I figure out how much material or tile to buy or
how many of something I can get with the money I have and when I figure out how
to make vines root better in water or how to water a tree that's sick (how are
that tree's roots structured? Watering right by the trunk almost never
helps, yet my college-educated renters dug little pits around the trunks of our
trees over there and water the trunks).
Very often when someone refers to "using chemistry" they mean "to get high
test scores and take more chemistry classes," and they never use it themselves
much. When I clean my hottub, I think of what I know of the microscopic
realities of wood and whether this is going to be a just-bleach-water cleaning or
whether for one factor or another it might be a 409 or soap week.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***I use them all the time, but I don't read the chapter and answer the
questions, I NEVER do a full page of practice equations, nor even just
the odd
numbered one.***
Right. We use the concepts called algebra and biology as a natural part
of living our lives but most of us will never need to refer to algebra or
biology text books or to pass an exam in order to successfully use those
concepts.
My husband failed algebra in high school, never could understand what
they wanted from him and yet when he built our fence he understood how to
calculate the number of boards needed for the pickets to span the
distance between our garage and the neighbors fence with equal spacing
between each picket.
I left high school before biology was required but I know which trees and
shrubs make their own rooting hormones and what kind of break in a bird
wing can be fixed allowing the bird to fly again, which birds are more
susceptible to shock and other complications and all kinds of other
things that are the natural result of the pursuit of my interests.
Deb L
questions, I NEVER do a full page of practice equations, nor even just
the odd
numbered one.***
Right. We use the concepts called algebra and biology as a natural part
of living our lives but most of us will never need to refer to algebra or
biology text books or to pass an exam in order to successfully use those
concepts.
My husband failed algebra in high school, never could understand what
they wanted from him and yet when he built our fence he understood how to
calculate the number of boards needed for the pickets to span the
distance between our garage and the neighbors fence with equal spacing
between each picket.
I left high school before biology was required but I know which trees and
shrubs make their own rooting hormones and what kind of break in a bird
wing can be fixed allowing the bird to fly again, which birds are more
susceptible to shock and other complications and all kinds of other
things that are the natural result of the pursuit of my interests.
Deb L
Deb Lewis
***Right. We use the concepts called algebra and biology as a natural
part
of living our lives but most of us will never need to refer to algebra or
biology text books or to pass an exam in order to successfully use those
concepts. ***
But I should talk about an unschooled kid.
Dylan has never had formal math instruction. A friend gave us a Saxon
math book awhile back and Dylan looked at it briefly but he didn't do a
page of math or study it.
He did make bad jokes about the ordinal number of Cardinals during the
news coverage of the selection of a new Pope.
As a bird watcher I was glad (for the first time ever) we don't get
Cardinals in western Montana. I think he got "ordinal" and "cardinal"
from that book because I don't recall it ever coming up before.
Dylan can add, subtract, multiply and divide. As far as I know he
doesn't know the written formula for long division and as I said before,
he can't recite multiplication tables.
But he can figure interest on his savings account. He can figure a
fifteen percent tip at a cafe. He can figure whether he has enough money
for the books he wants to buy. He can draw plans for bird and bat
houses, measure and cut the wood and put the pieces together. He just
built a nice bookshelf for his bedroom.
To my knowledge he's never looked at a biology textbook. He has field
guides that he refers to often, and he looks things up on-line. He can
identify hundreds of birds local to our area and he can identify almost
any insect, bug or spider he comes across in our area. With regard to
spiders specifically he can usually identify them at least to the genus
if he can watch them for awhile or see what kind of web they make. He
can recognize many plants and trees. When we're hiking he can tell the
difference between Douglas fir and spruce, lodge pole and ponderosa pine,
etc. My teacher neighbor calls every evergreen tree a "pine tree."
But here's the thing about Dylan. He likes bugs and birds and growing
things. So when he comes across a thing he hasn't seen before he is
curious about it. He wants to know what it is. He finds a way to get
his questions answered. I think it is -or could- be this way with all
people if they haven't had their curiosity killed by school.
Deb L
part
of living our lives but most of us will never need to refer to algebra or
biology text books or to pass an exam in order to successfully use those
concepts. ***
But I should talk about an unschooled kid.
Dylan has never had formal math instruction. A friend gave us a Saxon
math book awhile back and Dylan looked at it briefly but he didn't do a
page of math or study it.
He did make bad jokes about the ordinal number of Cardinals during the
news coverage of the selection of a new Pope.
As a bird watcher I was glad (for the first time ever) we don't get
Cardinals in western Montana. I think he got "ordinal" and "cardinal"
from that book because I don't recall it ever coming up before.
Dylan can add, subtract, multiply and divide. As far as I know he
doesn't know the written formula for long division and as I said before,
he can't recite multiplication tables.
But he can figure interest on his savings account. He can figure a
fifteen percent tip at a cafe. He can figure whether he has enough money
for the books he wants to buy. He can draw plans for bird and bat
houses, measure and cut the wood and put the pieces together. He just
built a nice bookshelf for his bedroom.
To my knowledge he's never looked at a biology textbook. He has field
guides that he refers to often, and he looks things up on-line. He can
identify hundreds of birds local to our area and he can identify almost
any insect, bug or spider he comes across in our area. With regard to
spiders specifically he can usually identify them at least to the genus
if he can watch them for awhile or see what kind of web they make. He
can recognize many plants and trees. When we're hiking he can tell the
difference between Douglas fir and spruce, lodge pole and ponderosa pine,
etc. My teacher neighbor calls every evergreen tree a "pine tree."
But here's the thing about Dylan. He likes bugs and birds and growing
things. So when he comes across a thing he hasn't seen before he is
curious about it. He wants to know what it is. He finds a way to get
his questions answered. I think it is -or could- be this way with all
people if they haven't had their curiosity killed by school.
Deb L
K Krejci
My husband provided an opening for me to drive the
unschooling bus straight down the middle of the gap
yesterday. A brief history:
He has never been an interested student in the world
of academia. Like me, he changed his college major
repeatedly. He finally found his 'thing' and, seven
years ago, began down the road of a doctoral degree.
He finished his coursework almost three years ago,
leaving only the qualifying exams and dissertation.
He cancelled his scheduled exam dates three times over
the past two years. Poor sweetie - just HATES this
stuff. And I'd say, "Then don't do it." And he'd
say, "But I'm so clooooooose..."
He's taking his quals FOR SURE in 10 days. Yesterday,
he came into the kitchen and said, "I'm just a bad
student. I hate this crap." (I rev my unschooling
bus engine...)
I said, "No, honey. You just don't care about this
stuff because you don't need it. If you did, you know
you'd be gobbling it up."
He paused. (unschooling bus engine roars...) I
hugged him and said, "It's so unfair - just like what
happens to kids all the time."
And the little light over his head began to glow. I
think we both understand a little more now. Oh, how I
hate to see him in such pain. He's a grownup and he's
crumbling. What chance do little punkins have in that
environment/those situations?
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
unschooling bus straight down the middle of the gap
yesterday. A brief history:
He has never been an interested student in the world
of academia. Like me, he changed his college major
repeatedly. He finally found his 'thing' and, seven
years ago, began down the road of a doctoral degree.
He finished his coursework almost three years ago,
leaving only the qualifying exams and dissertation.
He cancelled his scheduled exam dates three times over
the past two years. Poor sweetie - just HATES this
stuff. And I'd say, "Then don't do it." And he'd
say, "But I'm so clooooooose..."
He's taking his quals FOR SURE in 10 days. Yesterday,
he came into the kitchen and said, "I'm just a bad
student. I hate this crap." (I rev my unschooling
bus engine...)
I said, "No, honey. You just don't care about this
stuff because you don't need it. If you did, you know
you'd be gobbling it up."
He paused. (unschooling bus engine roars...) I
hugged him and said, "It's so unfair - just like what
happens to kids all the time."
And the little light over his head began to glow. I
think we both understand a little more now. Oh, how I
hate to see him in such pain. He's a grownup and he's
crumbling. What chance do little punkins have in that
environment/those situations?
Kathy
It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
jfetteroll
**I believe the only person qualified to determine what my son
needs (and what he will need in the future) is my son.**
And even he doesn't need to know what he needs for the future.
He only needs to know how to get what he needs right now.
One of the problems with schooling is that it convinces people
that things like Biology and Algebra are so hard (and dull) that
the only way to learn them is to have someone riding herd over
you as you go through the text..
A child who will be a doctor won't not learn biology any more than
a child who will be an artist will not draw. They will be drawn to
what they need because it's what interests them. And if they find
a college wants them to have more math, for instance, they'll be
faced with a class without the 12 years of preparation for further
dullness.
Unschooling happens the way kids learn to speak English. They
learn it as a side effect of getting what they want and persuing
what interests them.
What you're looking for is akin to expecting toddlers to pick up
English textbooks and work through them ;-)
Compare how well learning English as a side effect of living
works with how well learning works in a high school Spanish
class. The first is so effortless we don't take it seriously. The
second is so full of effort that if we end up with nothing more than
a few words we must assume we were at fault or all the work
was for nothing.
(Unfortunately all the work was pointless.)
Don't expect unschooling to look like kids doing school without
someone making them. Unschooling looks like playing. It looks
like kids using tools (like writing and biology and so on) to get
what they want.
You're part is to bring interesting things in their lives. *Don't*
equate interesting with things you think they "should" be
interested in. If they're interested in anime, seek out anime
conventions. If they're interested in model car racing, find ways
for them to pursue that.
Expand their worlds with things you think will interest them. But
be careful! If you slip into thinking in terms of what will be "good
for them" they won't trust you after a while! You only get so many
chances with "Trust me, I really think you'll like this." :-)
Joyce
Joyce
needs (and what he will need in the future) is my son.**
And even he doesn't need to know what he needs for the future.
He only needs to know how to get what he needs right now.
One of the problems with schooling is that it convinces people
that things like Biology and Algebra are so hard (and dull) that
the only way to learn them is to have someone riding herd over
you as you go through the text..
A child who will be a doctor won't not learn biology any more than
a child who will be an artist will not draw. They will be drawn to
what they need because it's what interests them. And if they find
a college wants them to have more math, for instance, they'll be
faced with a class without the 12 years of preparation for further
dullness.
Unschooling happens the way kids learn to speak English. They
learn it as a side effect of getting what they want and persuing
what interests them.
What you're looking for is akin to expecting toddlers to pick up
English textbooks and work through them ;-)
Compare how well learning English as a side effect of living
works with how well learning works in a high school Spanish
class. The first is so effortless we don't take it seriously. The
second is so full of effort that if we end up with nothing more than
a few words we must assume we were at fault or all the work
was for nothing.
(Unfortunately all the work was pointless.)
Don't expect unschooling to look like kids doing school without
someone making them. Unschooling looks like playing. It looks
like kids using tools (like writing and biology and so on) to get
what they want.
You're part is to bring interesting things in their lives. *Don't*
equate interesting with things you think they "should" be
interested in. If they're interested in anime, seek out anime
conventions. If they're interested in model car racing, find ways
for them to pursue that.
Expand their worlds with things you think will interest them. But
be careful! If you slip into thinking in terms of what will be "good
for them" they won't trust you after a while! You only get so many
chances with "Trust me, I really think you'll like this." :-)
Joyce
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/05 11:05:26 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
a photographer of the rainforests for national geographic articles, will
learn biology.
There are unfortunately "children" (in their 20's) who are going to medical
school because their parents declared long ago that that was the only thing the
parents would support and pay for, regardless of the "child"'s interest in
biology.
I've just never known it to happen that parents told a 22 year old "You will
be an artist, and you will like it, or we're cutting off your inheritance and
calling in all your debts to us immediately."
I know at least one who was told that about medical school, and I'm pretty
sure he was not the first, last or only of that subset of humans. Luckily, he
really DID like biology and chemistry and was good at them. He also
loved rooting exotic plants from cuttings, and playing guitar, and reading about
the Renaissance, but those were wastes of time in his parents' eyes.
I've known parents to pressure kids to play sports or take music lessons too,
but luckily art is still not one of the "Paint with oils right now or go to
your room without supper" areas of pressure.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> A child who will be a doctor won't not learn biology any more thanA child who WANTS to be a doctor, or a vet, or a zookeeper, or a botanist, or
> a child who will be an artist will not draw. They will be drawn to
> what they need because it's what interests them.
>
a photographer of the rainforests for national geographic articles, will
learn biology.
There are unfortunately "children" (in their 20's) who are going to medical
school because their parents declared long ago that that was the only thing the
parents would support and pay for, regardless of the "child"'s interest in
biology.
I've just never known it to happen that parents told a 22 year old "You will
be an artist, and you will like it, or we're cutting off your inheritance and
calling in all your debts to us immediately."
I know at least one who was told that about medical school, and I'm pretty
sure he was not the first, last or only of that subset of humans. Luckily, he
really DID like biology and chemistry and was good at them. He also
loved rooting exotic plants from cuttings, and playing guitar, and reading about
the Renaissance, but those were wastes of time in his parents' eyes.
I've known parents to pressure kids to play sports or take music lessons too,
but luckily art is still not one of the "Paint with oils right now or go to
your room without supper" areas of pressure.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
**You're part is to bring interesting things in their lives. *Don't*
equate interesting with things you think they "should" be interested in. **
I think this is one of the hardest things to "get" about unschooling. Would you all be willing to toss out some examples of interesting things that you've done recently, or are getting ready to do? (Sure, our kids are likely to diverge in what they are interested in, but I think examples help us readers start generating our own ideas.)
I'm not particularly great at leading a high-interest and high-action life, so I don't hold myself up as an example, but here's the most interesting current stuff at my house. We've been reading Harry Potter 6 recently, and that's strongly compelling for my son. We're planning a camping trip to the beach in a couple of days. And Mythbusters last night was about sharks. Other than that, playing with the hose and eating ice cream are our strongest summer interests.
I bet the rest of you are doing quite a range of other interesting stuff. And thinking other interesting thoughts.
Betsy
equate interesting with things you think they "should" be interested in. **
I think this is one of the hardest things to "get" about unschooling. Would you all be willing to toss out some examples of interesting things that you've done recently, or are getting ready to do? (Sure, our kids are likely to diverge in what they are interested in, but I think examples help us readers start generating our own ideas.)
I'm not particularly great at leading a high-interest and high-action life, so I don't hold myself up as an example, but here's the most interesting current stuff at my house. We've been reading Harry Potter 6 recently, and that's strongly compelling for my son. We're planning a camping trip to the beach in a couple of days. And Mythbusters last night was about sharks. Other than that, playing with the hose and eating ice cream are our strongest summer interests.
I bet the rest of you are doing quite a range of other interesting stuff. And thinking other interesting thoughts.
Betsy
soggyboysmom
Let's see - last year I started learning to play piano. And DS
sometimes jumps in and plays around with it. DH is making a working
replica light saber (using clear plastic rod, slices of colored
plastic, and copper plumbing bits and flashlight innards - once this
one is done, he's going to try one with clear plastic PVC pipe
and 'cool neon' rope). DS is enjoying playing with assorted leftover
bits and pieces. We went to see Fantastic Four on Friday, DS picked
up a volume of Fantastic Four episodes/issues (compiled into one
book) at the library Saturday. DH and DS are mucho into Starcraft
lately. We're considering a weekend trip in August - it will either
be a sleepover for DS at my sister's house (DS and his cousin would
love to spend a whole weekend together playing; DH and I would get a
hotel nearby and either have a whole weekend alone or we'd be able
to grab up DS if things got too hard for him) or it will be a trip
up to see Niagara Falls, possibly from the Canadian side - DS loves
waterfalls of all sorts. Oh, we found wild black raspberries growing
out behind the shed last week. That was fun. Not a whole lot
of 'wild and crazy' stuff going on - just life.
--Deb
sometimes jumps in and plays around with it. DH is making a working
replica light saber (using clear plastic rod, slices of colored
plastic, and copper plumbing bits and flashlight innards - once this
one is done, he's going to try one with clear plastic PVC pipe
and 'cool neon' rope). DS is enjoying playing with assorted leftover
bits and pieces. We went to see Fantastic Four on Friday, DS picked
up a volume of Fantastic Four episodes/issues (compiled into one
book) at the library Saturday. DH and DS are mucho into Starcraft
lately. We're considering a weekend trip in August - it will either
be a sleepover for DS at my sister's house (DS and his cousin would
love to spend a whole weekend together playing; DH and I would get a
hotel nearby and either have a whole weekend alone or we'd be able
to grab up DS if things got too hard for him) or it will be a trip
up to see Niagara Falls, possibly from the Canadian side - DS loves
waterfalls of all sorts. Oh, we found wild black raspberries growing
out behind the shed last week. That was fun. Not a whole lot
of 'wild and crazy' stuff going on - just life.
--Deb
Pam Sorooshian
Roxana is 17. She's in two musical theater shows at the same time
(Anything Goes and You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown) and taking dance
and vocal classes. Doing two shows also means a fair amount of time
spent shopping - for the right tights, leotard, shoes, make-up,
strapless bra, hairspray, etc., etc., etc. <G> In between all that,
she role plays on Desperate Fans (Live Journal community).
Roya is 20 now - I don't know if she really counts anymore as an
example of an unschooler, but SHE thinks she does so:
she is working two days a week in an adult education program through
the community college - she's an aide in a sign language class for
developmentally disabled adults, she tutors math to adults who are
wanting to get their GED, she works in the office sometimes, and has
even taught knitting and crocheting to the developmentally disabled
adults classes when they did units on "hobbies."
She's taking summer classes at Cal State Long Beach where she's a
full-time student now. She finished one class already - it included a
week-long trip to a completely undeveloped island fifty miles off the
coast (the island next to the Island of the Blue Dolphin one). She's
taking a class now on managing recreation programs (majoring in
Recreation and Leisure Studies). She's discovered she has a HUGE
advantage in her major over other students because she unschooled and
doesn't have any arbitrary lines in her mind dividing
leisure/recreation activities from work or learning activities. She
also has been doing a lot of working out - kickboxing class, aerobics,
swim fitness, and going to a gym.
Rosie is 14 and doing a LOT of hanging out with friends. Spent
yesterday all day at Downtown Disney with another girl and 4 or 5 boys
- all of these are kids who do karate at the same studio. They made a
bear at a place where you stuff and dress a stuffed animal yourself,
they ate, they went to a movie (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory). The
kids are 14 to 19 years old. Last week she was in Palm Springs with a
friend's family for a few days - just swimming and playing games and
reading and - hanging out. She did take a voice class a couple of times
a week, for 4 weeks, but that's done now. Tomorrow she'll go to karate
at noon and then stay and - you guessed it - hang out with her friends
- play games, listen to music, talk, eat, until another karate class at
7:30 pm. Wednesday she'll, hmmm, hang out at the park with her friends,
all day. Thursday would be a repeat of Tuesday except Roxana's got a
show in the morning and a bunch of us will go see that. Then, back to
--- hanging out. <G> When she isn't physically WITH her friends, she's
mostly talking to them by IM or emailing or live journaling.
My kids are mostly like me - high energy and not usually comfortable
sitting around the house much. Like to be on the go and involved in a
lot of outside stuff.
I do not necessarily recommend it - more down time would probably be
healthier! We get stressed and cranky - probably need more time spent
relaxing. But we do have fun!
-pam
(Anything Goes and You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown) and taking dance
and vocal classes. Doing two shows also means a fair amount of time
spent shopping - for the right tights, leotard, shoes, make-up,
strapless bra, hairspray, etc., etc., etc. <G> In between all that,
she role plays on Desperate Fans (Live Journal community).
Roya is 20 now - I don't know if she really counts anymore as an
example of an unschooler, but SHE thinks she does so:
she is working two days a week in an adult education program through
the community college - she's an aide in a sign language class for
developmentally disabled adults, she tutors math to adults who are
wanting to get their GED, she works in the office sometimes, and has
even taught knitting and crocheting to the developmentally disabled
adults classes when they did units on "hobbies."
She's taking summer classes at Cal State Long Beach where she's a
full-time student now. She finished one class already - it included a
week-long trip to a completely undeveloped island fifty miles off the
coast (the island next to the Island of the Blue Dolphin one). She's
taking a class now on managing recreation programs (majoring in
Recreation and Leisure Studies). She's discovered she has a HUGE
advantage in her major over other students because she unschooled and
doesn't have any arbitrary lines in her mind dividing
leisure/recreation activities from work or learning activities. She
also has been doing a lot of working out - kickboxing class, aerobics,
swim fitness, and going to a gym.
Rosie is 14 and doing a LOT of hanging out with friends. Spent
yesterday all day at Downtown Disney with another girl and 4 or 5 boys
- all of these are kids who do karate at the same studio. They made a
bear at a place where you stuff and dress a stuffed animal yourself,
they ate, they went to a movie (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory). The
kids are 14 to 19 years old. Last week she was in Palm Springs with a
friend's family for a few days - just swimming and playing games and
reading and - hanging out. She did take a voice class a couple of times
a week, for 4 weeks, but that's done now. Tomorrow she'll go to karate
at noon and then stay and - you guessed it - hang out with her friends
- play games, listen to music, talk, eat, until another karate class at
7:30 pm. Wednesday she'll, hmmm, hang out at the park with her friends,
all day. Thursday would be a repeat of Tuesday except Roxana's got a
show in the morning and a bunch of us will go see that. Then, back to
--- hanging out. <G> When she isn't physically WITH her friends, she's
mostly talking to them by IM or emailing or live journaling.
My kids are mostly like me - high energy and not usually comfortable
sitting around the house much. Like to be on the go and involved in a
lot of outside stuff.
I do not necessarily recommend it - more down time would probably be
healthier! We get stressed and cranky - probably need more time spent
relaxing. But we do have fun!
-pam
On Jul 18, 2005, at 12:51 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
> I bet the rest of you are doing quite a range of other interesting
> stuff. And thinking other interesting thoughts.
Angela S.
We ( me and dds 8 and 10) just got back from a short visit to Saratoga
Springs, NY, where dh is working. We drove from ME and stayed in his hotel
with him. My sister also lives in the area so we visited with her. We took
the kids to their first drive-in movie (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory),
we went to a rodeo, we tried to go to polo again, but it was cancelled
again. :( We visited with my sister and dyed Queen Anne's Lace. We also
shopped in a really cool horsey store in downtown Saratoga and walked the
streets looking at all the horse statues and went to the local county fair
there and watched a horse presentation and talked at length with a man who
was building furniture with early American tools who was clearly passionate
about what he was doing and sharing it with others. We've also been
watching the series on TNT called Into the West. It's very good, although
sad. Daily we care for our horse, ride her, and work at the farm we board
her at. We also just went to our family reunion a couple weeks ago at a
local campground. That was fun! We are seriously thinking of selling our
pop-up camper for a second horse. One of my dd's isn't sure she is ready to
make that change, but change always comes hard for her. She keeps changing
her mind. We'll wait a bit longer and see what happens. Maybe wait and get
one with our tax return next year. I am reading All Things Wise and
Wonderful to me and I am reading some other horse series books to the girls.
We have been playing Scatagories lately too and that's been fun and we also
played Beyond Balderdash at my sister's and that was fun too. We are off to
ride the horse with some other girls from the barn. Got to run but I'll try
to think of what else we've been doing while we're gone. :)
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Springs, NY, where dh is working. We drove from ME and stayed in his hotel
with him. My sister also lives in the area so we visited with her. We took
the kids to their first drive-in movie (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory),
we went to a rodeo, we tried to go to polo again, but it was cancelled
again. :( We visited with my sister and dyed Queen Anne's Lace. We also
shopped in a really cool horsey store in downtown Saratoga and walked the
streets looking at all the horse statues and went to the local county fair
there and watched a horse presentation and talked at length with a man who
was building furniture with early American tools who was clearly passionate
about what he was doing and sharing it with others. We've also been
watching the series on TNT called Into the West. It's very good, although
sad. Daily we care for our horse, ride her, and work at the farm we board
her at. We also just went to our family reunion a couple weeks ago at a
local campground. That was fun! We are seriously thinking of selling our
pop-up camper for a second horse. One of my dd's isn't sure she is ready to
make that change, but change always comes hard for her. She keeps changing
her mind. We'll wait a bit longer and see what happens. Maybe wait and get
one with our tax return next year. I am reading All Things Wise and
Wonderful to me and I am reading some other horse series books to the girls.
We have been playing Scatagories lately too and that's been fun and we also
played Beyond Balderdash at my sister's and that was fun too. We are off to
ride the horse with some other girls from the barn. Got to run but I'll try
to think of what else we've been doing while we're gone. :)
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/05 2:08:32 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
(coming up). My sister will be there. She hasn't been for 20 years. I'm not
going. Kirby's staying home too.
Marty (and sometimes Holly) have been involved in once or twice a week
sessions of a kind of basketball/volleyball-like made up game in a friend's swimming
pool. He designed the game (Ryan did) when he was younger, but never had
full teams to play it with. It's three on a side. Holly bought him a new
ball (with bumps) last week.
Kirby's planning a birthday party for which people are supposed to dress as
movie characters. He was planning to be Jaba the Hut (so Sadie would do
Princess Leia <g>), but he's starting to see how impractical it is. I have the
wheel chair from when my leg was broken. We talked about maybe dressing up the
couch and he could get in and out of the costume (a front-opening couch cover
of some sort).
Kirby has some new friends from "the other gaming store," and I met a couple
of them briefly, but it's been months now, so he's finally with a batch of
people I didn't meet first or approve. They're gamers, though, and when the
gameshop's closed they hang out at one's home and it's not too far from here.
So that's new but I didn't plan it.
Holly spends most of her time on Halo2 (chatting and playing) and MSN,
chatting with some of the kids she met at HesFes and some of their online friends.
The grandparents were here for two days. It wasn't too bad. They took the
kids out to eat, and we played Five Crowns (Holly and the adults). They
hung out with the kids some, where they were. Even watched Holly play Halo2
without criticizing her.
Keith and I have been working on the yard and house, and that's fun for us.
Lately hasn't been so much all-family stuff, but more in twos and threes.
Marty and Holly and I went to the zoo one day and will go again before long
because a friend of ours is telling stories in the new Africa center. Marty
and I went out to lunch one day after he had an ortho appt, and another day we
went shopping for electronics parts and took our time. Holly always wants to
go to the store with me lately. We walk slowly and talk and buy things that
weren't on the list that we know others in the family will like.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I think this is one of the hardest things to "get" about unschooling.Keith is taking Holly and probably Marty to a medieval camping weekend
> Would you all be willing to toss out some examples of interesting things that
> you've done recently, or are getting ready to do? (Sure, our kids are likely to
> diverge in what they are interested in, but I think examples help us readers
> start generating our own ideas.)
>
>
(coming up). My sister will be there. She hasn't been for 20 years. I'm not
going. Kirby's staying home too.
Marty (and sometimes Holly) have been involved in once or twice a week
sessions of a kind of basketball/volleyball-like made up game in a friend's swimming
pool. He designed the game (Ryan did) when he was younger, but never had
full teams to play it with. It's three on a side. Holly bought him a new
ball (with bumps) last week.
Kirby's planning a birthday party for which people are supposed to dress as
movie characters. He was planning to be Jaba the Hut (so Sadie would do
Princess Leia <g>), but he's starting to see how impractical it is. I have the
wheel chair from when my leg was broken. We talked about maybe dressing up the
couch and he could get in and out of the costume (a front-opening couch cover
of some sort).
Kirby has some new friends from "the other gaming store," and I met a couple
of them briefly, but it's been months now, so he's finally with a batch of
people I didn't meet first or approve. They're gamers, though, and when the
gameshop's closed they hang out at one's home and it's not too far from here.
So that's new but I didn't plan it.
Holly spends most of her time on Halo2 (chatting and playing) and MSN,
chatting with some of the kids she met at HesFes and some of their online friends.
The grandparents were here for two days. It wasn't too bad. They took the
kids out to eat, and we played Five Crowns (Holly and the adults). They
hung out with the kids some, where they were. Even watched Holly play Halo2
without criticizing her.
Keith and I have been working on the yard and house, and that's fun for us.
Lately hasn't been so much all-family stuff, but more in twos and threes.
Marty and Holly and I went to the zoo one day and will go again before long
because a friend of ours is telling stories in the new Africa center. Marty
and I went out to lunch one day after he had an ortho appt, and another day we
went shopping for electronics parts and took our time. Holly always wants to
go to the store with me lately. We walk slowly and talk and buy things that
weren't on the list that we know others in the family will like.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> I bet the rest of you are doing quite a range of other interesting____
> stuff. And thinking other interesting thoughts.
We're busy but not our normal 'busy". We're moving in 2 weeks...all the way
from Jacksonville, Florida to Albuquerque, New Mexico. Just us and a U-Haul
pulling one car...I'll be driving the van....with 4 kids....a dog, a cat and
a rabbit. We'll take 2 of the kids back to their home in Austin,
Texas,....and then on down the road. I think it's about 2000 miles.
Today, we went to the beach. Broc and I and Brenna and Logan...my two
stepkids, Tyler and Lindsay (my older stepson had to fly back to Texas yesterday)
and two wonderful unschooling friends that Brenna knows from Live and Learn
Conferences. Julian is here from the Boston area and Chris from Chicago.
(Thanks to their wonderful families for sharing their sons with us :-) They flew
in yesterday and on Friday I'm driving Brenna, Julian and Chris to Not Back
to School Camp in West Virginia. One week later I'll drive back up to get
her and then we head for New Mexico.
I was so worried about the riptides and sunburns for those "northern boys".
We got home and the only ones with sunburns are the Florida people! :-) We
watched some of Woodstock tonight...the teens are all playing their guitars.
The younger kids are in the pool. I think we have 3 Harry Potter books
being read. Lots of boxes half packed here and there. It's so nice having
the kids about. I love the sound of their music and their voices and laughter.
Many changes for me this summer. Huge. Some of it sad....some very
hopeful and I'm thinking that the music and children's voices and the laughter
will be with us in New Mexico also.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: gailbrocop@...
Today, we went to the beach. Broc and I and Brenna and Logan...my two
stepkids, Tyler and Lindsay (my older stepson had to fly back to Texas
yesterday)
and two wonderful unschooling friends that Brenna knows from Live and
Learn
Conferences. Julian is here from the Boston area and Chris from
Chicago.
(Thanks to their wonderful families for sharing their sons with us :-)
They
flew
in yesterday and on Friday I'm driving Brenna, Julian and Chris to Not
Back
to School Camp in West Virginia. One week later I'll drive back up to
get
her and then we head for New Mexico.
-=-=-=-=-
And somewhere in there she and Brenna and Julian and Chris are
wandering up here to Columbia on their way to West Virginia. So I get
to host all of them for a night! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: gailbrocop@...
Today, we went to the beach. Broc and I and Brenna and Logan...my two
stepkids, Tyler and Lindsay (my older stepson had to fly back to Texas
yesterday)
and two wonderful unschooling friends that Brenna knows from Live and
Learn
Conferences. Julian is here from the Boston area and Chris from
Chicago.
(Thanks to their wonderful families for sharing their sons with us :-)
They
flew
in yesterday and on Friday I'm driving Brenna, Julian and Chris to Not
Back
to School Camp in West Virginia. One week later I'll drive back up to
get
her and then we head for New Mexico.
-=-=-=-=-
And somewhere in there she and Brenna and Julian and Chris are
wandering up here to Columbia on their way to West Virginia. So I get
to host all of them for a night! <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/2005 9:29:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
And somewhere in there she and Brenna and Julian and Chris are
wandering up here to Columbia on their way to West Virginia. So I get
to host all of them for a night! <g>
Cameron is driving up to camp also! Thanks Kelly for giving us a place to
stay!
I'm thinking I could use a week at NBTSC this year.. Guess I'll just have
to hold out till the Live and Learn Conference in St. Louis. >g<
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
And somewhere in there she and Brenna and Julian and Chris are
wandering up here to Columbia on their way to West Virginia. So I get
to host all of them for a night! <g>
Cameron is driving up to camp also! Thanks Kelly for giving us a place to
stay!
I'm thinking I could use a week at NBTSC this year.. Guess I'll just have
to hold out till the Live and Learn Conference in St. Louis. >g<
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
interesting things that you've done recently, or are getting ready to
do? ==
We're listening to Harry Potter on books-on-tape -- we're a little
behind, so we'll be picking up Book 4 from the library tomorrow. But
last Friday we went to our local bookstore's HP6 party, just for the
party -- we didn't stay for the book. <G> Fisher (8) dressed up in
his wizard's hat and a homemade cape, made a sparkly wand, touched a
hedgehog at the "Care of Magical Creatures" booth, and brought home,
not a Harry Potter item, but a Pirate's Treasure Chest that had a lot
of historical information and knot-tying information <G>. So since
then we've been playing pretend pirates quite a bit.
We've been playing lots on our new birthday trampoline -- both kids (8
and 2) can do way more with their bodies than they could a few weeks
ago.
We also pretend to drive the cars a lot -- Riley in particular, but
Fisher often joins in. Our minivan is alternately a space ship, a
pirate ship, and an actual car being driven by crazy people on the
freeway. Riley likes to turn the radio up loud and blow me kisses as
he's driving -- I think he's been watching his papa.
Our area has some free water parks (not slides -- just water shooting
out of the ground at different places and different intervals), so we
visited one of those last week. There are summer programs there that
include having board games and crafts materials available, so we used
those as well.
Fisher has switched from playing Pokemon on his GameBoy to playing
MegaMan. He is reading the game guide and telling me all the ways
that the stats and the various pieces of information interrelate. We
play pretend MegaMan and come up with some pretty tough Net
Navigators, thanks to his incisive analysis.
Fisher saw a new Bionicle advertised that he's interested in, so we
may be checking that out tomorrow or the next day. We just picked up
some MadLibs and some of the Invisible Ink books, so we've been
playing around with those. Fisher got a big stuffed snake, so he's
been carrying that around his neck and we tell all sorts of snake
stories together.
Riley's new fascination is pouring his own soda and putting ice in it.
If I have any carbonated drink that I'm not using, I take it out to
the deck with a cup and a small tub of ice, and let him go to it. The
fizz just fascinates him.
I've been writing more and getting my Tarot cards out some. Sometimes
Fisher comes by and asks about the pictures, so we talk about world
religions and mythology and symbols.
We've been watching Dragonball Z on Cartoon Network with great
interest, as it's the first time we've seen this part of the series.
Well, Riley isn't as interested in DBZ. Riley and I love the Boobahs
and the Wiggles. Very trippy, all of it. Riley likes to blow us down
and to wake us up, Wiggles style. We have lots of games on the
trampoline of falling over and bouncing back up again.
Our life in a nutshell -- lots of learning and connections and
interests, coming from all over.
Peace,
Amy
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>==I think this is one of the hardest things to "get" aboutunschooling. Would you all be willing to toss out some examples of
interesting things that you've done recently, or are getting ready to
do? ==
We're listening to Harry Potter on books-on-tape -- we're a little
behind, so we'll be picking up Book 4 from the library tomorrow. But
last Friday we went to our local bookstore's HP6 party, just for the
party -- we didn't stay for the book. <G> Fisher (8) dressed up in
his wizard's hat and a homemade cape, made a sparkly wand, touched a
hedgehog at the "Care of Magical Creatures" booth, and brought home,
not a Harry Potter item, but a Pirate's Treasure Chest that had a lot
of historical information and knot-tying information <G>. So since
then we've been playing pretend pirates quite a bit.
We've been playing lots on our new birthday trampoline -- both kids (8
and 2) can do way more with their bodies than they could a few weeks
ago.
We also pretend to drive the cars a lot -- Riley in particular, but
Fisher often joins in. Our minivan is alternately a space ship, a
pirate ship, and an actual car being driven by crazy people on the
freeway. Riley likes to turn the radio up loud and blow me kisses as
he's driving -- I think he's been watching his papa.
Our area has some free water parks (not slides -- just water shooting
out of the ground at different places and different intervals), so we
visited one of those last week. There are summer programs there that
include having board games and crafts materials available, so we used
those as well.
Fisher has switched from playing Pokemon on his GameBoy to playing
MegaMan. He is reading the game guide and telling me all the ways
that the stats and the various pieces of information interrelate. We
play pretend MegaMan and come up with some pretty tough Net
Navigators, thanks to his incisive analysis.
Fisher saw a new Bionicle advertised that he's interested in, so we
may be checking that out tomorrow or the next day. We just picked up
some MadLibs and some of the Invisible Ink books, so we've been
playing around with those. Fisher got a big stuffed snake, so he's
been carrying that around his neck and we tell all sorts of snake
stories together.
Riley's new fascination is pouring his own soda and putting ice in it.
If I have any carbonated drink that I'm not using, I take it out to
the deck with a cup and a small tub of ice, and let him go to it. The
fizz just fascinates him.
I've been writing more and getting my Tarot cards out some. Sometimes
Fisher comes by and asks about the pictures, so we talk about world
religions and mythology and symbols.
We've been watching Dragonball Z on Cartoon Network with great
interest, as it's the first time we've seen this part of the series.
Well, Riley isn't as interested in DBZ. Riley and I love the Boobahs
and the Wiggles. Very trippy, all of it. Riley likes to blow us down
and to wake us up, Wiggles style. We have lots of games on the
trampoline of falling over and bouncing back up again.
Our life in a nutshell -- lots of learning and connections and
interests, coming from all over.
Peace,
Amy
Betsy and Chris
From: Pam Sorooshian
<<<<<<<<Rosie is 14 and doing a LOT of hanging out with friends. Spent
yesterday all day at Downtown Disney with another girl and 4 or 5 boys
. . <snip>. . Tomorrow she'll go to karate
at noon and then stay and - you guessed it - hang out with her friends
- play games, listen to music, talk, eat, until another karate class at
7:30 pm. Wednesday she'll, hmmm, hang out at the park with her friends,
all day. Thursday would be a repeat of Tuesday except Roxana's got a
show in the morning and a bunch of us will go see that. Then, back to
--- hanging out. <G> When she isn't physically WITH her friends, she's
mostly talking to them by IM or emailing or live journaling.>>>>>>>>
Did anyone else read this and think that the "But, kids NEED socialization!"
people would suddenly be very focused on how much kids need academics if
they heard about all this "hanging out?" <g> Maybe I'm just cynical! LOL
Betsy S.
<<<<<<<<Rosie is 14 and doing a LOT of hanging out with friends. Spent
yesterday all day at Downtown Disney with another girl and 4 or 5 boys
. . <snip>. . Tomorrow she'll go to karate
at noon and then stay and - you guessed it - hang out with her friends
- play games, listen to music, talk, eat, until another karate class at
7:30 pm. Wednesday she'll, hmmm, hang out at the park with her friends,
all day. Thursday would be a repeat of Tuesday except Roxana's got a
show in the morning and a bunch of us will go see that. Then, back to
--- hanging out. <G> When she isn't physically WITH her friends, she's
mostly talking to them by IM or emailing or live journaling.>>>>>>>>
Did anyone else read this and think that the "But, kids NEED socialization!"
people would suddenly be very focused on how much kids need academics if
they heard about all this "hanging out?" <g> Maybe I'm just cynical! LOL
Betsy S.
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], "Betsy and Chris"
<canderson51@c...> wrote:
in just about every Friday night for the last month - DS favorite
thing because WE can control the volume and such so he can watch
movies he wants to see without the dark, loud, crowded issues. This
last time, it was interesting to see because there was a little boy
(maybe 5? DS is 7) in the car next to us. About 20 minutes until
movie time. DS had been playing with some other kids (he brings his
pair of light sabers to battle with) but they had to go with their
mom (pre-movie bathroom and snack stuff). So, this other little kid
had been watching them from his seat at the open window of his
vehicle. He started talking to DS about the light sabers and DS
asked if he wanted to come out and play. Kid's dad shook his head
no. DS came over to me. I said "Well, it looks like his dad doesn't
want him to come out of the car." DS talked to the kid another
minute then went around to the driver's side window and quite calmly
and coolly asked the DAD if it would be okay for the boy to come out
and play. I guess something got to him (maybe courtesy and
politeness?) because the mom apparently convinced the dad and she
and the boy came out. She leaned on their vehicle while DS and her
son had a grand time with the light sabers - DS even let the boy be
Anakin (the good Jedi Anakin) while he was Darth Vader with the red
light saber. Then they switched. And when we signalled that the
movie was about to start, they calmly packed up, said goodbye and
went back to their respective spots (we sit inside the pickup - big
bench seat way more comfortable than beach chairs for one).
Gee, so DS 'should' go to school to learn sharing, courtesy,
politeness, respectful address for others,...? LOL
--Deb
<canderson51@c...> wrote:
> From: Pam Sorooshiancynical! >LOL
>
> Did anyone else read this and think that the "But, kids NEED
>socialization!"
> people would suddenly be very focused on how much kids need
>academics if
> they heard about all this "hanging out?" <g> Maybe I'm just
>I get those thoughts - frequently lately as we've been at the drive
> Betsy S.
in just about every Friday night for the last month - DS favorite
thing because WE can control the volume and such so he can watch
movies he wants to see without the dark, loud, crowded issues. This
last time, it was interesting to see because there was a little boy
(maybe 5? DS is 7) in the car next to us. About 20 minutes until
movie time. DS had been playing with some other kids (he brings his
pair of light sabers to battle with) but they had to go with their
mom (pre-movie bathroom and snack stuff). So, this other little kid
had been watching them from his seat at the open window of his
vehicle. He started talking to DS about the light sabers and DS
asked if he wanted to come out and play. Kid's dad shook his head
no. DS came over to me. I said "Well, it looks like his dad doesn't
want him to come out of the car." DS talked to the kid another
minute then went around to the driver's side window and quite calmly
and coolly asked the DAD if it would be okay for the boy to come out
and play. I guess something got to him (maybe courtesy and
politeness?) because the mom apparently convinced the dad and she
and the boy came out. She leaned on their vehicle while DS and her
son had a grand time with the light sabers - DS even let the boy be
Anakin (the good Jedi Anakin) while he was Darth Vader with the red
light saber. Then they switched. And when we signalled that the
movie was about to start, they calmly packed up, said goodbye and
went back to their respective spots (we sit inside the pickup - big
bench seat way more comfortable than beach chairs for one).
Gee, so DS 'should' go to school to learn sharing, courtesy,
politeness, respectful address for others,...? LOL
--Deb