Re: When saying "yes" is offensive
Kathleen Whitfield
on 5/30/05 2:25 AM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:
steps" introduction to RU, if their subscription to the list is their
introduction. The question: Is that the goal of the list, to make people
feel comfortable?
In LLL, the point of meeting women where they're at and encouraging them to
"take what they can use and leave the rest" is the hopes that they will move
more in the direction of LLL Philosophy. Or, if they don't move far in that
direction, they will at least support the organization and not bad-mouth it
to their friends! Ideally, we don't soften message, but we do tell it in a
kind way and emphasize that people "have to do what's best for their own
families."
I'm on a ton of email lists, and this one doesn't seem all that harsh,
frankly, particularly on a harshness continuum on parenting subjects --
people get nasty about different child-rearing choices. Many of those who
post here are direct, but not nasty. I feel like I learn something, even
though I don't post myself.
But not everyone will feel comfortable -- I guess I don't see a problem with
that.
Kathleen
[email protected] wrote:
> Personally, I am over feeling attacked by challenging feedback. ISoftening the message might make people feel more comfortable in their "baby
> welcome the direct approach. Sometimes that is the only way to "get
> it." But I can see that those who feel fragile find it difficult to
> honestly share where they are stuck because they are terrified of
> failing their kids or being correctd and don't have the confidence to
> trust unschooling all the way.**
steps" introduction to RU, if their subscription to the list is their
introduction. The question: Is that the goal of the list, to make people
feel comfortable?
In LLL, the point of meeting women where they're at and encouraging them to
"take what they can use and leave the rest" is the hopes that they will move
more in the direction of LLL Philosophy. Or, if they don't move far in that
direction, they will at least support the organization and not bad-mouth it
to their friends! Ideally, we don't soften message, but we do tell it in a
kind way and emphasize that people "have to do what's best for their own
families."
I'm on a ton of email lists, and this one doesn't seem all that harsh,
frankly, particularly on a harshness continuum on parenting subjects --
people get nasty about different child-rearing choices. Many of those who
post here are direct, but not nasty. I feel like I learn something, even
though I don't post myself.
But not everyone will feel comfortable -- I guess I don't see a problem with
that.
Kathleen
Julie Bogart
--- In [email protected], Kathleen Whitfield
<kmckernan@e...> wrote:
The question: Is that the goal of the list, to make people
peaceful and free to learn, reaching moms is the necessary step in
that direction.
I think this list does a great job, for the most part. I wasn't
criticizing the list but explaining why some people are reticent to
stay and learn.
different for unschooling.
In fact, if we are talking about how to help our kids with what they
need, we don't just demand that they "get it" (whatever "it" is), but
go to great lengths to help them, to understand them, to see them
through the frustrating, scary parts.
This list has been that for me. But not everyone starts with as much
commitment to the idea of unschooling as I had at the beginning.
Ideally, we don't soften message, but we do tell it in a
Many of those who
Julie B
<kmckernan@e...> wrote:
The question: Is that the goal of the list, to make people
> feel comfortable?Clearly not. But if the goal includes making children happy and
peaceful and free to learn, reaching moms is the necessary step in
that direction.
I think this list does a great job, for the most part. I wasn't
criticizing the list but explaining why some people are reticent to
stay and learn.
>them to
> In LLL, the point of meeting women where they're at and encouraging
> "take what they can use and leave the rest" is the hopes that theywill move
> more in the direction of LLL Philosophy.See, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure why that would be
different for unschooling.
In fact, if we are talking about how to help our kids with what they
need, we don't just demand that they "get it" (whatever "it" is), but
go to great lengths to help them, to understand them, to see them
through the frustrating, scary parts.
This list has been that for me. But not everyone starts with as much
commitment to the idea of unschooling as I had at the beginning.
Ideally, we don't soften message, but we do tell it in a
> kind way and emphasize that people "have to do what's best for their ownMakes sense to me.
> families."
Many of those who
> post here are direct, but not nasty.I agree. I like that about this list too.
Julie B
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2005 11:20:37 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
julie@... writes:
different for unschooling.
==============
La Leche League involves money, approval and training of leaders, a strict
curriculum with guidelines and principles (stated exactly) which all leaders
must promote. There's no room for discussion between leaders during a meeting
about what the right answer is. There is a right answer to every question.
There's a board of directors to maintain those right answers and their
quality controls. Nothing goes into their publications that's not checked at a
corporate level (used to be; may just regional now <g>).
Unschooling is wilder and broader and we're not the sole source for people
who want discussions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie@... writes:
> In LLL, the point of meeting women where they're at and encouragingthem to
> "take what they can use and leave the rest" is the hopes that theywill move
> more in the direction of LLL Philosophy.See, that makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure why that would be
different for unschooling.
==============
La Leche League involves money, approval and training of leaders, a strict
curriculum with guidelines and principles (stated exactly) which all leaders
must promote. There's no room for discussion between leaders during a meeting
about what the right answer is. There is a right answer to every question.
There's a board of directors to maintain those right answers and their
quality controls. Nothing goes into their publications that's not checked at a
corporate level (used to be; may just regional now <g>).
Unschooling is wilder and broader and we're not the sole source for people
who want discussions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On May 30, 2005, at 3:57 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
Leche League in our area because the women were meanspirited hostile
people. She said they sat there at the meeting and mocked people who
bottle fed, making fun of them in sarcastic ways. She said she was
never so uncomfortable in her life and couldn't wait to get away. She
went there fully intending to breastfeed and just thought it might be
good to get some support because many of her friends AND her husband's
relatives (mil, especially) were discouraging her from breastfeeding.
She breastfed anyway, although not as long as she might have with more
support for long-term breastfeeding. And I never went to LLL, but read
"The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" and had my sisters and mother as
role models and support.
-pam
>> In LLL, the point of meeting women where they're at and encouragingMy sister (her kids are older than mine) told me to stay away from La
> them to
>> "take what they can use and leave the rest" is the hopes that they
> will move
>> more in the direction of LLL Philosophy.
Leche League in our area because the women were meanspirited hostile
people. She said they sat there at the meeting and mocked people who
bottle fed, making fun of them in sarcastic ways. She said she was
never so uncomfortable in her life and couldn't wait to get away. She
went there fully intending to breastfeed and just thought it might be
good to get some support because many of her friends AND her husband's
relatives (mil, especially) were discouraging her from breastfeeding.
She breastfed anyway, although not as long as she might have with more
support for long-term breastfeeding. And I never went to LLL, but read
"The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding" and had my sisters and mother as
role models and support.
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/30/2005 5:58:06 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
La Leche League involves money, approval and training of leaders, a strict
curriculum with guidelines and principles (stated exactly) which all
leaders
must promote. There's no room for discussion between leaders during a
meeting
about what the right answer is. There is a right answer to every question.
There's a board of directors to maintain those right answers and their
quality controls. Nothing goes into their publications that's not
checked at a
corporate level (used to be; may just regional now <g>).
Unschooling is wilder and broader and we're not the sole source for people
who want discussions.
~~~
Plus, the actual health and safety of newborn babies is not so much at
stake. LLL has big-lawsuit type liability if their methods can be proven to cause
the death of a child. (Which would never happen, but this is a crazy
world.)
Since everyone here is acting as a free-agent and there is no organization,
etc., we have no liability if someone neglects their child in the name of
unschooling and they run out the in the street and get hit by a car.
I certainly prefer it that way.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
La Leche League involves money, approval and training of leaders, a strict
curriculum with guidelines and principles (stated exactly) which all
leaders
must promote. There's no room for discussion between leaders during a
meeting
about what the right answer is. There is a right answer to every question.
There's a board of directors to maintain those right answers and their
quality controls. Nothing goes into their publications that's not
checked at a
corporate level (used to be; may just regional now <g>).
Unschooling is wilder and broader and we're not the sole source for people
who want discussions.
~~~
Plus, the actual health and safety of newborn babies is not so much at
stake. LLL has big-lawsuit type liability if their methods can be proven to cause
the death of a child. (Which would never happen, but this is a crazy
world.)
Since everyone here is acting as a free-agent and there is no organization,
etc., we have no liability if someone neglects their child in the name of
unschooling and they run out the in the street and get hit by a car.
I certainly prefer it that way.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>My sister (her kids are older than mine) told me to stay away from LaLeche League in our area because the women were meanspirited hostile
people. She said they sat there at the meeting and mocked people who
bottle fed, making fun of them in sarcastic ways. She said she was
never so uncomfortable in her life and couldn't wait to get away.>>>>>>>>>>>
La Leche League International does NOT tell leaders to bash formula feeding mothers.
When I was involved in La Leche League, we made it a point to avoid saying negative things about bottle-feeding. Our focus was on promoting the positive aspects of breastfeeding and breastmilk and helping mothers to gain confidence in knowing their own baby rather than relying on "experts".
To criticize LLL because of a bad impression from one group is not fair.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2005 12:27:44 AM Central Standard Time,
nellebelle@... writes:
To criticize LLL because of a bad impression from one group is not fair.
~~~
All she did was list the reasons her sister gave for not going to the local
group. She didn't bash the entire organization.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle@... writes:
To criticize LLL because of a bad impression from one group is not fair.
~~~
All she did was list the reasons her sister gave for not going to the local
group. She didn't bash the entire organization.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
To criticize LLL because of a bad impression from one group is not fair.
"Fair" is an interesting concept in that way too.
Some people had a VW they HATED and so they never want another volkswagen.
Is that fair?
If someone was raped by a marine in uniform and hates all marines
thereafter, is that fair?
If a German shepherd bites a nine year old in the butt (ahem... it can
happen) and she's wary of German shepherds from then on is that fair?
When someone badmouths a restaurant, I ask if they don't think it might've
just been the particular waiter and cook they had that day. Other shifts,
other days might easily be much better.
Same with schools and teachers.
"Fair" isn't a fair measure.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Fair" is an interesting concept in that way too.
Some people had a VW they HATED and so they never want another volkswagen.
Is that fair?
If someone was raped by a marine in uniform and hates all marines
thereafter, is that fair?
If a German shepherd bites a nine year old in the butt (ahem... it can
happen) and she's wary of German shepherds from then on is that fair?
When someone badmouths a restaurant, I ask if they don't think it might've
just been the particular waiter and cook they had that day. Other shifts,
other days might easily be much better.
Same with schools and teachers.
"Fair" isn't a fair measure.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]