unschooling personal hygiene
kricketp2
Hello all. I have been lurking on this site for about three weeks
now, and am so grateful that I discovered you all. I feel like a
sponge that is soaking up all of these wonderful ideas about life
and learning. Right now, I'm looking for opinions on how to
approach the concept of personal hygiene (or extreme lack thereof)
from an RU perspective.
I am a single mother homeschooling my ds age 12. We are still new
to homeschooling and even newer to the concept of unschooling, so we
are still very much in a deschooling adjustment period. My ds
tolerated attending a small private school through 5th grade, but
due to a job layoff and new job with about 60% less income, and
therefore no money for tuition, he transferred into a large
extremely overcrowded public middle school for 6th grade. I wish I
had heard of the concept of unschooling before I enrolled him in ps,
or I never would have done that hideous thing to him at all. But
until last November, homeschooling in my mind had always been
equivalent to school-at-home and therefore a last resort.
Not surprisingly, he did not take the transition into ps well at
all. The anxiety created severe IBS problems, causing him to miss
quite a bit of school and eventually spiraling him into a suicidal
depression. The psychiatrist gave him drugs, and when those didn't
work they gave him more drugs, all in an effort to make him able to
tolerate the *necessary* school atmosphere. The school was ready to
hold him back a year because he had missed too many days, therefore
labeling him as a failure. It became extremely apparent to me that
all of them were less concerned about him as a human being, and more
concerned about him helping to maintain their high test score
averages in the school district, so I said *enough* and pulled him
out of school. He was almost immediately a totally different child,
as if I had rescued him from death (which I guess I did). We
eventually also dumped the psychiatrist (and his drugs). And we
dumped the counselor who said that homeschooling was the worst thing
I could do for my child and who scolded me for never having assigned
him chores yet in his life, because they were long overdue. Even
the IBS problems have completely ceased. He is no longer depressed
or suicidal.
Because I was initially afraid of the school questioning me and
claiming that I was simply trying to avoid truancy, we did attempt
to do school-at-home for the first two months, but it didn't work
well at all. Not even when we only studied one subject a day and
only for 30 minutes. Even if he got to pick the subject. It became
obvious that he desperately needed a long period of deschooling with
a goal of unschooling. So that's where we are now.
Fortunately, I work from home, so we just each go about our day
doing what we each need/want to do, doing activities together as
much as possible. Because some days are rather lean on the together
time, we declared Sunday to be family day (at his request) so that
we can have one day a week that is just for us to do activities
together (no work for me and no friends over for him, except on rare
and mutually agreeable occasions). He is very much a night owl and
will often stay up all night and sleep most of the day. He spends
his waking hours watching TV and playing video games, or playing
with his ps friends after they get home in the afternoon. On
extremely rare occasions he will read for a little bit.
The only area I worry about in the long term is his extreme lack of
personal hygiene. He absolutely hates bathing, washing his hair,
and brushing his teeth. He will wear the same clothes for weeks at
a time, he has taken one shower in the last four months (on Mother's
Day as a gift to me, even though I didn't ask for it), and I cannot
remember the last time that he brushed his teeth. Since coercion
and even blatant bribery with money has failed over the years, I am
trying to give him space to choose these things on his own, but he
simply doesn't. He did bathe on occasion when in private school
because the teachers or principal would tell him he needed to. And
there was a short time in 5th grade when he chose to shower every
day, but I'm pretty sure there was peer pressure involved in that.
Now he just doesn't. Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).
So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU.
Obviously, I haven't arrived at being a radical unschooler yet, but
that is the goal. Is the fact that there is a health issue involved
make this an area where he doesn't just get to choose what he wants
to do (sort of like I would never let him choose to play in the
middle of a busy highway), or should I continue to let him make his
own decisions in this area and I just need to be more patient and
work on healing my own attitude and fears? I really don't care so
much about his wearing the same clothes for two weeks (less
laundry), but I do worry about the months of not bathing at all or
brushing his teeth. Sorry this was so long, but I thought some
background might be useful.
Glenda in OK
now, and am so grateful that I discovered you all. I feel like a
sponge that is soaking up all of these wonderful ideas about life
and learning. Right now, I'm looking for opinions on how to
approach the concept of personal hygiene (or extreme lack thereof)
from an RU perspective.
I am a single mother homeschooling my ds age 12. We are still new
to homeschooling and even newer to the concept of unschooling, so we
are still very much in a deschooling adjustment period. My ds
tolerated attending a small private school through 5th grade, but
due to a job layoff and new job with about 60% less income, and
therefore no money for tuition, he transferred into a large
extremely overcrowded public middle school for 6th grade. I wish I
had heard of the concept of unschooling before I enrolled him in ps,
or I never would have done that hideous thing to him at all. But
until last November, homeschooling in my mind had always been
equivalent to school-at-home and therefore a last resort.
Not surprisingly, he did not take the transition into ps well at
all. The anxiety created severe IBS problems, causing him to miss
quite a bit of school and eventually spiraling him into a suicidal
depression. The psychiatrist gave him drugs, and when those didn't
work they gave him more drugs, all in an effort to make him able to
tolerate the *necessary* school atmosphere. The school was ready to
hold him back a year because he had missed too many days, therefore
labeling him as a failure. It became extremely apparent to me that
all of them were less concerned about him as a human being, and more
concerned about him helping to maintain their high test score
averages in the school district, so I said *enough* and pulled him
out of school. He was almost immediately a totally different child,
as if I had rescued him from death (which I guess I did). We
eventually also dumped the psychiatrist (and his drugs). And we
dumped the counselor who said that homeschooling was the worst thing
I could do for my child and who scolded me for never having assigned
him chores yet in his life, because they were long overdue. Even
the IBS problems have completely ceased. He is no longer depressed
or suicidal.
Because I was initially afraid of the school questioning me and
claiming that I was simply trying to avoid truancy, we did attempt
to do school-at-home for the first two months, but it didn't work
well at all. Not even when we only studied one subject a day and
only for 30 minutes. Even if he got to pick the subject. It became
obvious that he desperately needed a long period of deschooling with
a goal of unschooling. So that's where we are now.
Fortunately, I work from home, so we just each go about our day
doing what we each need/want to do, doing activities together as
much as possible. Because some days are rather lean on the together
time, we declared Sunday to be family day (at his request) so that
we can have one day a week that is just for us to do activities
together (no work for me and no friends over for him, except on rare
and mutually agreeable occasions). He is very much a night owl and
will often stay up all night and sleep most of the day. He spends
his waking hours watching TV and playing video games, or playing
with his ps friends after they get home in the afternoon. On
extremely rare occasions he will read for a little bit.
The only area I worry about in the long term is his extreme lack of
personal hygiene. He absolutely hates bathing, washing his hair,
and brushing his teeth. He will wear the same clothes for weeks at
a time, he has taken one shower in the last four months (on Mother's
Day as a gift to me, even though I didn't ask for it), and I cannot
remember the last time that he brushed his teeth. Since coercion
and even blatant bribery with money has failed over the years, I am
trying to give him space to choose these things on his own, but he
simply doesn't. He did bathe on occasion when in private school
because the teachers or principal would tell him he needed to. And
there was a short time in 5th grade when he chose to shower every
day, but I'm pretty sure there was peer pressure involved in that.
Now he just doesn't. Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).
So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU.
Obviously, I haven't arrived at being a radical unschooler yet, but
that is the goal. Is the fact that there is a health issue involved
make this an area where he doesn't just get to choose what he wants
to do (sort of like I would never let him choose to play in the
middle of a busy highway), or should I continue to let him make his
own decisions in this area and I just need to be more patient and
work on healing my own attitude and fears? I really don't care so
much about his wearing the same clothes for two weeks (less
laundry), but I do worry about the months of not bathing at all or
brushing his teeth. Sorry this was so long, but I thought some
background might be useful.
Glenda in OK
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/2005 3:34:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
gpurscell@... writes:
Because some days are rather lean on the together
time, we declared Sunday to be family day (at his request) so that
we can have one day a week that is just for us to do activities
together (no work for me and no friends over for him, except on rare
and mutually agreeable occasions). He is very much a night owl and
will often stay up all night and sleep most of the day. He spends
his waking hours watching TV and playing video games, or playing
with his ps friends after they get home in the afternoon.
======================
Why can't a weekday be the family day? If he already has to wait for
schoolkids, why black out one of the days they're all home?
-=-The only area I worry about in the long term is his extreme lack of
personal hygiene. He absolutely hates bathing, washing his hair,
and brushing his teeth. -=-
So if he were going to school he would do it because it was time to go
somewhere?
You could take him somewhere every day, after he's cleaned up and ready to
go, maybe.
-=- He will wear the same clothes for weeks at
a time, =-
Not if you put them in the washing machine when he takes them off.
If he's sleeping in them, tell him it's not good for the sheets and the
sheets are yours, so to change for bed. Then wash what he pulls off.
-=- I cannot
remember the last time that he brushed his teeth. Since coercion
and even blatant bribery with money has failed over the years, . . .-=-
If this has been going on for years, then it's not about deschooling or
homeschooling, right?
-=-He did bathe on occasion when in private school
because the teachers or principal would tell him he needed to.-=-
If he would do it for them, why wouldn't he do it for you?
Why could YOU say "Take a shower now" but in a nice way?
-=--=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him,-=-
"Break down" from WHAT!?
You have a policy of not discussing things with him?
-=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).-=-
If you were regularly discussing things with him, you couldn't write
"sometimes I break down and discuss it."
If you were totally honest with him, you could write to us and say "the
reasoning I give him is his health... but to be totally honest..."
He should have heard long ago that it's embarrassing to you and that you
could be in trouble with CPS. Those things are real and true, and if you
haven't been communicating well with him that could be your first goal, I think.
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
That article might help.
-=-So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU. =-
Can we just say unschooling, maybe?
Those issues do NOT "fit into" unschooling.
I think your question is how to apply principles to this situation. What
are your priorities for your relationship with him and for how the environment
in which he's living and learning should be?
Something went wrong a long time back that has nothing to do with private
school or public school.
On the other hand, lots of kids will start showering more (or lots!) when
they're into puberty, and 12 can be the last holdout period for boys. The
gamer boys will tell the younger boys "take a shower," but I know of NO older
gamer boys who don't take regular showers. And those are the geekiest of the
geek-boys, generally.
-=- I really don't care so much about his wearing the same clothes for two
weeks (less
laundry),-=-
Well it's not good for the cloth itself, and it's not as good for his health
as changing clothes would be. Maybe you should take a detour from
deschooling for a unit study on germs. If you as a mom aren't more worried about the
cleanliness in which your child resides, and if your honest discussion only
vaguely concerns health, maybe you need to do a google-session looking up
bacteria and how laundry detergents and soaps work and maybe your son would be
interested in seeing it too. It might inspire him to want more showers.
What about renting Osmosis Jones? If he doesn't want to watch it with you,
you could watch it.
Do you change your own clothes a lot? Shower lots? Do you say "OH, that
feels good!" when you're hair's just clean after you've worked in the yard (or
whatever) and then taken a shower?
Would he like new clothes (or different, used clothes)?
Is he still depressed?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gpurscell@... writes:
Because some days are rather lean on the together
time, we declared Sunday to be family day (at his request) so that
we can have one day a week that is just for us to do activities
together (no work for me and no friends over for him, except on rare
and mutually agreeable occasions). He is very much a night owl and
will often stay up all night and sleep most of the day. He spends
his waking hours watching TV and playing video games, or playing
with his ps friends after they get home in the afternoon.
======================
Why can't a weekday be the family day? If he already has to wait for
schoolkids, why black out one of the days they're all home?
-=-The only area I worry about in the long term is his extreme lack of
personal hygiene. He absolutely hates bathing, washing his hair,
and brushing his teeth. -=-
So if he were going to school he would do it because it was time to go
somewhere?
You could take him somewhere every day, after he's cleaned up and ready to
go, maybe.
-=- He will wear the same clothes for weeks at
a time, =-
Not if you put them in the washing machine when he takes them off.
If he's sleeping in them, tell him it's not good for the sheets and the
sheets are yours, so to change for bed. Then wash what he pulls off.
-=- I cannot
remember the last time that he brushed his teeth. Since coercion
and even blatant bribery with money has failed over the years, . . .-=-
If this has been going on for years, then it's not about deschooling or
homeschooling, right?
-=-He did bathe on occasion when in private school
because the teachers or principal would tell him he needed to.-=-
If he would do it for them, why wouldn't he do it for you?
Why could YOU say "Take a shower now" but in a nice way?
-=--=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him,-=-
"Break down" from WHAT!?
You have a policy of not discussing things with him?
-=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).-=-
If you were regularly discussing things with him, you couldn't write
"sometimes I break down and discuss it."
If you were totally honest with him, you could write to us and say "the
reasoning I give him is his health... but to be totally honest..."
He should have heard long ago that it's embarrassing to you and that you
could be in trouble with CPS. Those things are real and true, and if you
haven't been communicating well with him that could be your first goal, I think.
_http://sandradodd.com/truck_ (http://sandradodd.com/truck)
That article might help.
-=-So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU. =-
Can we just say unschooling, maybe?
Those issues do NOT "fit into" unschooling.
I think your question is how to apply principles to this situation. What
are your priorities for your relationship with him and for how the environment
in which he's living and learning should be?
Something went wrong a long time back that has nothing to do with private
school or public school.
On the other hand, lots of kids will start showering more (or lots!) when
they're into puberty, and 12 can be the last holdout period for boys. The
gamer boys will tell the younger boys "take a shower," but I know of NO older
gamer boys who don't take regular showers. And those are the geekiest of the
geek-boys, generally.
-=- I really don't care so much about his wearing the same clothes for two
weeks (less
laundry),-=-
Well it's not good for the cloth itself, and it's not as good for his health
as changing clothes would be. Maybe you should take a detour from
deschooling for a unit study on germs. If you as a mom aren't more worried about the
cleanliness in which your child resides, and if your honest discussion only
vaguely concerns health, maybe you need to do a google-session looking up
bacteria and how laundry detergents and soaps work and maybe your son would be
interested in seeing it too. It might inspire him to want more showers.
What about renting Osmosis Jones? If he doesn't want to watch it with you,
you could watch it.
Do you change your own clothes a lot? Shower lots? Do you say "OH, that
feels good!" when you're hair's just clean after you've worked in the yard (or
whatever) and then taken a shower?
Would he like new clothes (or different, used clothes)?
Is he still depressed?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: kricketp2 <gpurscell@...>
-=-=-=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).-=-=-=-
I think you need to break down and be honestly honest with him.
I think that it seriously *could* be considered an issue that would
involve CPS. It could jeapordize your unschooling.
If he considers school a better option, by all means, he can continue
to live in filth. If he likes his life right now, he might want to
consider doing something as simple as showering to remain at home in
peace and joy.
Not a hard decision, really.
Be honest and quit beating around the bush. He stinks and is filthy,
and "neglect" IS grounds for a CPS report.
-=-=-=-=-So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU.
Obviously, I haven't arrived at being a radical unschooler yet, but
that is the goal. Is the fact that there is a health issue involved
make this an area where he doesn't just get to choose what he wants
to do-=-=-=-=-=-
This doesn't seem much like an unschooling issue. But...
Part of unschooling is making sure he knows the facts so that he can
make wise decisions. I don't think you've talked enough.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: kricketp2 <gpurscell@...>
-=-=-=- Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. There is truth
in it being a health issue, but to be totally honest my biggest
reason for wanting him to be clean has nothing to do with that -- it
is because I am embarrassed when other adults see him looking dirty
and unkempt. I am afraid they will think that he is neglected and
think poorly of me as his parent (or worse yet, report me to Child
Protective Services over it).-=-=-=-
I think you need to break down and be honestly honest with him.
I think that it seriously *could* be considered an issue that would
involve CPS. It could jeapordize your unschooling.
If he considers school a better option, by all means, he can continue
to live in filth. If he likes his life right now, he might want to
consider doing something as simple as showering to remain at home in
peace and joy.
Not a hard decision, really.
Be honest and quit beating around the bush. He stinks and is filthy,
and "neglect" IS grounds for a CPS report.
-=-=-=-=-So I'm looking for opinions on where this issue fits into RU.
Obviously, I haven't arrived at being a radical unschooler yet, but
that is the goal. Is the fact that there is a health issue involved
make this an area where he doesn't just get to choose what he wants
to do-=-=-=-=-=-
This doesn't seem much like an unschooling issue. But...
Part of unschooling is making sure he knows the facts so that he can
make wise decisions. I don't think you've talked enough.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Pam Sorooshian
You've been through hell and gotten out of it!! Wow!
I wouldn't worry at ALL about the personal hygiene thing - after what
he's been through, it isn't that big a deal and, trust me, it is VERY
very very common among boys his age.
I don't have sons, but I have 3 daughters 14, 17, and 20 and have spent
a lot of time around a lot of young boys. There seems to be a stage
that many many many of them go through during which they don't seem to
mind at ALL being really stinky and having dirty hair and all that.
Usually this is just before puberty - and sometimes they can really get
pretty awful smelling. I've had some boys in my car, over the years,
where I had to open the windows and air the car out after they'd been
in it.
So - it passes. I BET there will be a time in the not-too-distant
future when he'll be taking frequent and really LONG showers and you'll
be wondering what the heck he is doing in there <BEG>!!!
I'd bribe him to shower, if it was me, because I wouldn't want to have
him around me, all stinky and gross. MY problem, not his, right? But I
wouldn't worry that he'd never come round to wanting to be clean - for
himself --- that'll happen.
-pam
I wouldn't worry at ALL about the personal hygiene thing - after what
he's been through, it isn't that big a deal and, trust me, it is VERY
very very common among boys his age.
I don't have sons, but I have 3 daughters 14, 17, and 20 and have spent
a lot of time around a lot of young boys. There seems to be a stage
that many many many of them go through during which they don't seem to
mind at ALL being really stinky and having dirty hair and all that.
Usually this is just before puberty - and sometimes they can really get
pretty awful smelling. I've had some boys in my car, over the years,
where I had to open the windows and air the car out after they'd been
in it.
So - it passes. I BET there will be a time in the not-too-distant
future when he'll be taking frequent and really LONG showers and you'll
be wondering what the heck he is doing in there <BEG>!!!
I'd bribe him to shower, if it was me, because I wouldn't want to have
him around me, all stinky and gross. MY problem, not his, right? But I
wouldn't worry that he'd never come round to wanting to be clean - for
himself --- that'll happen.
-pam
On May 21, 2005, at 12:38 PM, kricketp2 wrote:
> The only area I worry about in the long term is his extreme lack of
> personal hygiene. He absolutely hates bathing, washing his hair,
> and brushing his teeth.
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/21/2005 5:08:34 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
On the other hand, lots of kids will start showering more (or lots!) when
they're into puberty, and 12 can be the last holdout period for boys. The
gamer boys will tell the younger boys "take a shower," but I know of NO
older
gamer boys who don't take regular showers. And those are the geekiest of
the
geek-boys, generally.
~~~
Yeah, I was thinking about that too, until she said it was going on from
long ago.
Glenda, I'd like to know how much physical closeness you have with your son?
My youngest is 11 and we still snuggle up on the couch together a lot. He
only stopped sleeping with me last year. He has problems remembering to
shower and brush his teeth, but I remind him like I always have (he didn't
remember to shower or brush his teeth when he was 3, either). So, when we're close
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean.
This is an area where my son needs help remembering how and when to do the
proper thing, and like anything (eating, baseball practice), I help him
remember to get it done. I've even insisted on the shower at certain times. The
lucky thing is he's 11 now, and I can tell him how much time he has left from
the time we have to leave or whatever, or I can point out that he didn't
shower yesterday because we stayed home all day in our pajamas, and he'll go and
shower without being cajoled into it. It took a long time to get him to that
point. 11 years. :) He simply wasn't ready to do it on his own before
now. He's still not showering independently of his own choice, but like my
older sons, I know that day is coming when he will be using up the hot water
before I can.
I'm an unschooler, by the way. Unschooling doesn't mean we don't interact
or guide or encourage your children. Unschooling is all about the
*relationship* between the child and his world. He doesn't live in a bubble of his own
choosing. Parents are a major part of that world.
Another thing...Is your shower clean? Are any of the tiles missing or does
the water back up into the tub? Is it scary in there for him? Does he have
enough privacy? No windows with sheer curtains or anything like that?
There's a lock on the door? Does he know HOW to shower and wash himself? Is
there plenty of soap, a washcloth and clean towels? Does he object to you seeing
him naked? (Will doesn't want me to see him anymore.) Could you sit in the
bathroom with him while showers? Make conversation, talk about the weather.
Could you put a radio in there so he could blast his favorite music while
he showers?
I like a clean shower. If I'm camping out and the nearest shower is creepy
or not clean, I'll gladly skip showers until I can't stand myself anymore.
(Lots of people don't shower when they camp, I know. I like to shower on
occasion if I can.) Maybe your son doesn't enjoy the experience of showering.
Maybe he needs help making the environment more comfy for him.
I'd definitely ask him how you can help him be get clean more often, and
then follow through on it right away.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
On the other hand, lots of kids will start showering more (or lots!) when
they're into puberty, and 12 can be the last holdout period for boys. The
gamer boys will tell the younger boys "take a shower," but I know of NO
older
gamer boys who don't take regular showers. And those are the geekiest of
the
geek-boys, generally.
~~~
Yeah, I was thinking about that too, until she said it was going on from
long ago.
Glenda, I'd like to know how much physical closeness you have with your son?
My youngest is 11 and we still snuggle up on the couch together a lot. He
only stopped sleeping with me last year. He has problems remembering to
shower and brush his teeth, but I remind him like I always have (he didn't
remember to shower or brush his teeth when he was 3, either). So, when we're close
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean.
This is an area where my son needs help remembering how and when to do the
proper thing, and like anything (eating, baseball practice), I help him
remember to get it done. I've even insisted on the shower at certain times. The
lucky thing is he's 11 now, and I can tell him how much time he has left from
the time we have to leave or whatever, or I can point out that he didn't
shower yesterday because we stayed home all day in our pajamas, and he'll go and
shower without being cajoled into it. It took a long time to get him to that
point. 11 years. :) He simply wasn't ready to do it on his own before
now. He's still not showering independently of his own choice, but like my
older sons, I know that day is coming when he will be using up the hot water
before I can.
I'm an unschooler, by the way. Unschooling doesn't mean we don't interact
or guide or encourage your children. Unschooling is all about the
*relationship* between the child and his world. He doesn't live in a bubble of his own
choosing. Parents are a major part of that world.
Another thing...Is your shower clean? Are any of the tiles missing or does
the water back up into the tub? Is it scary in there for him? Does he have
enough privacy? No windows with sheer curtains or anything like that?
There's a lock on the door? Does he know HOW to shower and wash himself? Is
there plenty of soap, a washcloth and clean towels? Does he object to you seeing
him naked? (Will doesn't want me to see him anymore.) Could you sit in the
bathroom with him while showers? Make conversation, talk about the weather.
Could you put a radio in there so he could blast his favorite music while
he showers?
I like a clean shower. If I'm camping out and the nearest shower is creepy
or not clean, I'll gladly skip showers until I can't stand myself anymore.
(Lots of people don't shower when they camp, I know. I like to shower on
occasion if I can.) Maybe your son doesn't enjoy the experience of showering.
Maybe he needs help making the environment more comfy for him.
I'd definitely ask him how you can help him be get clean more often, and
then follow through on it right away.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/2005 9:34:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
So, when we're close
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean.
____
I use this with my 12 year old son. He is a big hugger and I always tell
him how good his hair smells when he comes to hug me good night after a shower.
I also remind him about his teeth occasionally....he doesn't mind. He's
busy and get preoccupied for hours and often doesn't shower because it's just
not something that he wants to take time to do.
His sister has no problem at all telling him that he stiinks! She doesn't
have much tact and will say something like..."Logan you smell really really
bad!"
One thing that saves us in the summer is our pool. Last summer I had three
boys (two stepchildren) here ages 11, 13 and 15. The 13 year old showered
only twice in one month. I just encouraged them to swim often and kept
chlorine in the pool. They have a room in the garage in the summer and I just
didn't go in there. The 15 year old was starting to shower more and with 3
teenage girls in the neighborhood I predict he may be showering more this summer.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
So, when we're close
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean.
____
I use this with my 12 year old son. He is a big hugger and I always tell
him how good his hair smells when he comes to hug me good night after a shower.
I also remind him about his teeth occasionally....he doesn't mind. He's
busy and get preoccupied for hours and often doesn't shower because it's just
not something that he wants to take time to do.
His sister has no problem at all telling him that he stiinks! She doesn't
have much tact and will say something like..."Logan you smell really really
bad!"
One thing that saves us in the summer is our pool. Last summer I had three
boys (two stepchildren) here ages 11, 13 and 15. The 13 year old showered
only twice in one month. I just encouraged them to swim often and kept
chlorine in the pool. They have a room in the garage in the summer and I just
didn't go in there. The 15 year old was starting to shower more and with 3
teenage girls in the neighborhood I predict he may be showering more this summer.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S.
<<<So, when we're close
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean >>>
We do a lot of snuggling in our house and I have a pretty sensitive nose. I
have only daughters (8 and 10) but they don't like to shower either. I have
no problem telling them when they smell badly and need to bathe. I am not
trying to insult them but just inform them that if they want people to enjoy
being around them, that it would benefit them to bathe. Also, it's harder
to notice your own body odor or even that of your own kids, so I think that
by the time I notice that they stink that any other people who have come in
close contact have already noticed. My kids can go a good week without
smelling too badly and longer in the summer when they swim often. I don't
think it's too much to ask to ask them to shower occasionally for the
benefit of others who live in the same house or come in close contact with
them.
My kids still like to have me shampoo their hair and adjust the water
temperature in the shower. I don't mind helping to make their shower
experiences as easy as possible. It just encourages them to do it more
often.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
together, sitting on the couch, and he's stinky, I don't have a bit of a
problem with telling him I'd enjoy our snuggle more if he were clean >>>
We do a lot of snuggling in our house and I have a pretty sensitive nose. I
have only daughters (8 and 10) but they don't like to shower either. I have
no problem telling them when they smell badly and need to bathe. I am not
trying to insult them but just inform them that if they want people to enjoy
being around them, that it would benefit them to bathe. Also, it's harder
to notice your own body odor or even that of your own kids, so I think that
by the time I notice that they stink that any other people who have come in
close contact have already noticed. My kids can go a good week without
smelling too badly and longer in the summer when they swim often. I don't
think it's too much to ask to ask them to shower occasionally for the
benefit of others who live in the same house or come in close contact with
them.
My kids still like to have me shampoo their hair and adjust the water
temperature in the shower. I don't mind helping to make their shower
experiences as easy as possible. It just encourages them to do it more
often.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], "kricketp2"
<gpurscell@c...> wrote:
==Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
with our kids, if it's an actual discussion and dialogue and giving
information, as opposed to "laying down the law." Discussing is a
huge part of what we do as unschooling parents -- giving information,
listening to our children, considering things from all angles, being
as honest about our own feelings and experiences as we are respectful
of theirs. This is how our children learn to communicate as a real
person in the world (instead of as a powerless sub-human, which is
what they learn in school). This is how they get the information they
need to make well-considered decisions.
So by all means, keep discussing!
Peace,
Amy
<gpurscell@c...> wrote:
==Sometimes I break down and do discuss it with
> him, and the reasoning I give to him is his health. ==In unschooling, we don't have to "break down" to discuss something
with our kids, if it's an actual discussion and dialogue and giving
information, as opposed to "laying down the law." Discussing is a
huge part of what we do as unschooling parents -- giving information,
listening to our children, considering things from all angles, being
as honest about our own feelings and experiences as we are respectful
of theirs. This is how our children learn to communicate as a real
person in the world (instead of as a powerless sub-human, which is
what they learn in school). This is how they get the information they
need to make well-considered decisions.
So by all means, keep discussing!
Peace,
Amy
Elizabeth Hill
**
In unschooling, we don't have to "break down" to discuss something
with our kids, if it's an actual discussion and dialogue and giving
information, as opposed to "laying down the law." Discussing is a
huge part of what we do as unschooling parents -- giving information,
listening to our children, considering things from all angles, being
as honest about our own feelings and experiences as we are respectful
of theirs. **
Right.
This made me think that dysfunctional, dictatorial families in which having a dissenting opinion is "talking back" are very likely to create the (very common now) next generation of dysfunctional families in which the adults "don't know how to communicate" with each other (due to lack of opportunities to practice).
People get all anxious about windows of opportunity to learn foreign language or math and sail right past the critical opportunity to learn to play nice and share. ::::: overly dramatic sigh :::::
Betsy
In unschooling, we don't have to "break down" to discuss something
with our kids, if it's an actual discussion and dialogue and giving
information, as opposed to "laying down the law." Discussing is a
huge part of what we do as unschooling parents -- giving information,
listening to our children, considering things from all angles, being
as honest about our own feelings and experiences as we are respectful
of theirs. **
Right.
This made me think that dysfunctional, dictatorial families in which having a dissenting opinion is "talking back" are very likely to create the (very common now) next generation of dysfunctional families in which the adults "don't know how to communicate" with each other (due to lack of opportunities to practice).
People get all anxious about windows of opportunity to learn foreign language or math and sail right past the critical opportunity to learn to play nice and share. ::::: overly dramatic sigh :::::
Betsy
Katy Jennings
This discussion is extremely timely for me. I have been having issues lately with Richard's hygiene. He is 9, and has in the last year started having lots of body odor, mostly after exercising. He doesn't like to get in the shower, but once he is in he doesn't like to get out <g>.
The other day I blew up at him. There was a lot leading up to it, but some of the things were: I had asked him to shower every day for the last 5 and he didn't, I didn't harp on it, just reminded him, and he just forgot each day. He likes me to set out clothes for him sometimes, and each time I did lately I noticed that he put on everything that I set out *except* the clean underwear. He has been forgetting to put on deodorant, even with reminders. He hasn't brushed his teeth in a week, not a huge problem except that he likes to drink red Fanta so his teeth are red.
And, the biggest factor leading up to it, I was tired and grumpy!
So, I blew up about him not taking care of himself. I felt really bad afterwards, and I apologized and asked him for suggestions to help him remember to do these things. He gets mad at me if I remind him *too* much, too much like nagging ya know? So I try really hard not to do that, but he *does* need to be reminded. So he came up with a list on the bathroom mirror. That way I only remind him to do his "morning stuff" (kind of a funny name, since mornings at our house are really closer to noon!) and he goes and looks at the list. It has been working so far, and he seems to like checking each thing off each day. I work 3 days a week, and on those days he gets himself up and rides his bike to a childcare home. Those are the days that it has really helped. I really worry about him smelling since someone called CPS on us a while back (not for that, for homeschooling and a cluttered house, case is to be closed this week, finally!), a smelly kid looks like neglect to a social worker. He also tends to have a little bit of dandruff, and the anti-dandruff shampoos only work if you shower! <g> So we talked about this, how it looks bad to others if we smell, or have visible dandruff, and that wearing the same underwear for days on end is not the same as wearing the same jeans a couple of days in a row.
I found out that there was a reason that he wasn't changing his underwear. A while back he told me that he didn't like the feel of his underwear (those boxer briefs, fitted like briefs but with legs like shorts) under his cup/supporter that he has to wear for TaeKwonDo. He decided that he liked wearing regular boxers, the soft ones made of t-shirt knit, better. So I bought him a bunch of those. At some point he changed his mind, but was afraid to tell me. So he had lots of boxers clean, but no boxer briefs, so he just kept wearing the same ones for a week! He wasn't afraid that I would be mad, but he said he was afraid of disappointing me, that I had just spent money on these boxers and then he didn't like them. I felt really bad and told him that I wanted him to be comfortable, I don't care about buying the new underwear.
Anyway, things are much better now, after talking about it with him. I did talk to him about hygiene before, but not really *why* it is important. And I am rambling now!
Katy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The other day I blew up at him. There was a lot leading up to it, but some of the things were: I had asked him to shower every day for the last 5 and he didn't, I didn't harp on it, just reminded him, and he just forgot each day. He likes me to set out clothes for him sometimes, and each time I did lately I noticed that he put on everything that I set out *except* the clean underwear. He has been forgetting to put on deodorant, even with reminders. He hasn't brushed his teeth in a week, not a huge problem except that he likes to drink red Fanta so his teeth are red.
And, the biggest factor leading up to it, I was tired and grumpy!
So, I blew up about him not taking care of himself. I felt really bad afterwards, and I apologized and asked him for suggestions to help him remember to do these things. He gets mad at me if I remind him *too* much, too much like nagging ya know? So I try really hard not to do that, but he *does* need to be reminded. So he came up with a list on the bathroom mirror. That way I only remind him to do his "morning stuff" (kind of a funny name, since mornings at our house are really closer to noon!) and he goes and looks at the list. It has been working so far, and he seems to like checking each thing off each day. I work 3 days a week, and on those days he gets himself up and rides his bike to a childcare home. Those are the days that it has really helped. I really worry about him smelling since someone called CPS on us a while back (not for that, for homeschooling and a cluttered house, case is to be closed this week, finally!), a smelly kid looks like neglect to a social worker. He also tends to have a little bit of dandruff, and the anti-dandruff shampoos only work if you shower! <g> So we talked about this, how it looks bad to others if we smell, or have visible dandruff, and that wearing the same underwear for days on end is not the same as wearing the same jeans a couple of days in a row.
I found out that there was a reason that he wasn't changing his underwear. A while back he told me that he didn't like the feel of his underwear (those boxer briefs, fitted like briefs but with legs like shorts) under his cup/supporter that he has to wear for TaeKwonDo. He decided that he liked wearing regular boxers, the soft ones made of t-shirt knit, better. So I bought him a bunch of those. At some point he changed his mind, but was afraid to tell me. So he had lots of boxers clean, but no boxer briefs, so he just kept wearing the same ones for a week! He wasn't afraid that I would be mad, but he said he was afraid of disappointing me, that I had just spent money on these boxers and then he didn't like them. I felt really bad and told him that I wanted him to be comfortable, I don't care about buying the new underwear.
Anyway, things are much better now, after talking about it with him. I did talk to him about hygiene before, but not really *why* it is important. And I am rambling now!
Katy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/2005 7:04:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
kjennings95@... writes:
I did talk to him about hygiene before, but not really *why* it is
important.
-------------
But without the WHY, what message was he getting?
That he should do it because... mom said? Because other people do it?
The bacterial build-up is #1, but...
-=- a smelly kid looks like neglect to a social worker.=-
I don't think a person would need to be a social worker to feel a smelly kid
was a neglected kid. You could tell him that, in all honesty. You could
say that if he grows up and in his own home decides to be dirty, that only
makes him look odd and anti-social and might keep him from keeping a job or
friends, but that when he's a kid it makes his mom look bad, odd, anti-social and
negletful and that's not a cool thing to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kjennings95@... writes:
I did talk to him about hygiene before, but not really *why* it is
important.
-------------
But without the WHY, what message was he getting?
That he should do it because... mom said? Because other people do it?
The bacterial build-up is #1, but...
-=- a smelly kid looks like neglect to a social worker.=-
I don't think a person would need to be a social worker to feel a smelly kid
was a neglected kid. You could tell him that, in all honesty. You could
say that if he grows up and in his own home decides to be dirty, that only
makes him look odd and anti-social and might keep him from keeping a job or
friends, but that when he's a kid it makes his mom look bad, odd, anti-social and
negletful and that's not a cool thing to do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**You could say that if he grows up and in his own home decides to be
dirty, that only makes him look odd and anti-social and might keep him
from keeping a job or friends, but that when he's a kid it makes his mom
look bad, odd, anti-social and negletful and that's not a cool thing to
do. **
My son mostly would rather not comb his hair. A real sentence from my house (roughly remembered) is, "Aunt C------- will think I'm a bad mom if she sees your hair looking like that, so would you let me comb it?"
Betsy
dirty, that only makes him look odd and anti-social and might keep him
from keeping a job or friends, but that when he's a kid it makes his mom
look bad, odd, anti-social and negletful and that's not a cool thing to
do. **
My son mostly would rather not comb his hair. A real sentence from my house (roughly remembered) is, "Aunt C------- will think I'm a bad mom if she sees your hair looking like that, so would you let me comb it?"
Betsy
Krisula Moyer
The biggest hygiene issue here is ds's finger nails. He really does not
like to trim them and when they get too long they gather dirt and become
very gross looking. We talked about bacteria and how finger nails harbor it
and then pass it along to everything we do with our hands including eating.
That helped but he still likes them long (to scratch of course).
Last weekend we were all invited to a wedding and I found a big salon style
manicure kit on sale at Ross. So I got it and set up bowls of warm soapy
water and fluffy towels in the living room. I was thinking of the girls
when I did this but wouldn't you know ds joined us and let me wash, cut file
and buff his nails while we laughed and watched TV. He enjoyed a little
pampering and it made doing his nails not so much a chore for him. Who
would've guessed.
Krisula
like to trim them and when they get too long they gather dirt and become
very gross looking. We talked about bacteria and how finger nails harbor it
and then pass it along to everything we do with our hands including eating.
That helped but he still likes them long (to scratch of course).
Last weekend we were all invited to a wedding and I found a big salon style
manicure kit on sale at Ross. So I got it and set up bowls of warm soapy
water and fluffy towels in the living room. I was thinking of the girls
when I did this but wouldn't you know ds joined us and let me wash, cut file
and buff his nails while we laughed and watched TV. He enjoyed a little
pampering and it made doing his nails not so much a chore for him. Who
would've guessed.
Krisula
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/23/2005 8:24:32 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
My son mostly would rather not comb his hair. A real sentence from my house
(roughly remembered) is, "Aunt C------- will think I'm a bad mom if she sees
your hair looking like that, so would you let me comb it?"
------------
I've said "Wear real shoes because I don't want people to call CPS," and
I've meant it. <g>
Kirby went to his class once last spring (probably more than once, but one
day I saw...) in shorts and flip-flops. Only bad thing was it was snowing.
But his dad's that way, so it's not ignorance, it's a genetic tendency to be
warmer than other people (and they have nice legs).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
My son mostly would rather not comb his hair. A real sentence from my house
(roughly remembered) is, "Aunt C------- will think I'm a bad mom if she sees
your hair looking like that, so would you let me comb it?"
------------
I've said "Wear real shoes because I don't want people to call CPS," and
I've meant it. <g>
Kirby went to his class once last spring (probably more than once, but one
day I saw...) in shorts and flip-flops. Only bad thing was it was snowing.
But his dad's that way, so it's not ignorance, it's a genetic tendency to be
warmer than other people (and they have nice legs).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wilson family
I'm really glad someone brought this issue this up. Between personal hygiene
and hair length and clothes ,ect...
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?
My kids love going barefoot, especially my daughter. So I only insist on
shoes in stores (where you have to), going to friends that don't know them
well enough to be understanding about the barefoot thing, classes such as
drama and art but I hear that they take their shoes off when they get there
anyway.
To a whole lot of people this elicits many reactions. Some kids (I'll bet
the ones who are never allowed to take shoes off) are very angry and shout
things like "where's your shoes?" in a very mean tone. Adults laugh and just
don't quite know what to do. A lot of people ask them about hurting their
feet. They have extremely tough feet and rarely ever get cut.
I have felt worried at times about what if cps see my children walking
down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet.
One more thing, my son is loving being able to grow his hair out long. He is
11 and his hair is now at his shoulders he wants to grow it long down his
back. I really want him to keep it out of his eyes, but he likes it that
way. I think he may be trying to hide behind his bangs, but he just says he
likes it. I know that a lot of people look at him and can't understand his
hair and are afraid to get to know him because of it. I have discussed my
feelings to him, but he says he doesn't care what other people think he
likes his hair long. I think it feels freeing to him.
I feel in this case to live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of
choices for his own body I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he
will have to live the consequences of his choice even how much I wish I
could spare him that.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
~Steph
and hair length and clothes ,ect...
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?
My kids love going barefoot, especially my daughter. So I only insist on
shoes in stores (where you have to), going to friends that don't know them
well enough to be understanding about the barefoot thing, classes such as
drama and art but I hear that they take their shoes off when they get there
anyway.
To a whole lot of people this elicits many reactions. Some kids (I'll bet
the ones who are never allowed to take shoes off) are very angry and shout
things like "where's your shoes?" in a very mean tone. Adults laugh and just
don't quite know what to do. A lot of people ask them about hurting their
feet. They have extremely tough feet and rarely ever get cut.
I have felt worried at times about what if cps see my children walking
down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet.
One more thing, my son is loving being able to grow his hair out long. He is
11 and his hair is now at his shoulders he wants to grow it long down his
back. I really want him to keep it out of his eyes, but he likes it that
way. I think he may be trying to hide behind his bangs, but he just says he
likes it. I know that a lot of people look at him and can't understand his
hair and are afraid to get to know him because of it. I have discussed my
feelings to him, but he says he doesn't care what other people think he
likes his hair long. I think it feels freeing to him.
I feel in this case to live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of
choices for his own body I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he
will have to live the consequences of his choice even how much I wish I
could spare him that.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
~Steph
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/23/2005 3:00:43 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ssag@... writes:
-=-I'm really glad someone brought this issue this up. Between personal
hygiene
and hair length and clothes ,ect...
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?-=-
========
Depends.
Depends who the others are, how the kid feels about being possibly disliked
or shunned, whether it's actually a danger to some social situation (will an
ex-husband throw a fit or take legal action, or is it just kinda tacky?);
depends and could change every time.
-=-I feel in this case to live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of
choices for his own body I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he
will have to live the consequences of his choice even how much I wish I
could spare him that.
-=-
-=-I must let him wear his hair how he likes it ...-=-
As opposed to what? Cutting it off while he's sleeping? Force him to go to
a barber?
-=He will have to live the consequences of his choice-=-
No he won't. The decision making repeats over and over and over. It's not
like getting a tattoo. He could cut his hair off in the next half hour, in
the next minute, and then not cut it again for five years.
When the consequences are less pleasant than the hair is, he can cut the
hair off.
He doesn't have to live with it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ssag@... writes:
-=-I'm really glad someone brought this issue this up. Between personal
hygiene
and hair length and clothes ,ect...
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?-=-
========
Depends.
Depends who the others are, how the kid feels about being possibly disliked
or shunned, whether it's actually a danger to some social situation (will an
ex-husband throw a fit or take legal action, or is it just kinda tacky?);
depends and could change every time.
-=-I feel in this case to live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of
choices for his own body I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he
will have to live the consequences of his choice even how much I wish I
could spare him that.
-=-
-=-I must let him wear his hair how he likes it ...-=-
As opposed to what? Cutting it off while he's sleeping? Force him to go to
a barber?
-=He will have to live the consequences of his choice-=-
No he won't. The decision making repeats over and over and over. It's not
like getting a tattoo. He could cut his hair off in the next half hour, in
the next minute, and then not cut it again for five years.
When the consequences are less pleasant than the hair is, he can cut the
hair off.
He doesn't have to live with it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/23/2005 5:00:44 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ssag@... writes:
I have felt worried at times about what if cps see my children walking
down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet.
My dad MADE us wear shoes. So we wouldn't get cut/sick/anything that might
cost him money.
He would stomp really hard on our feet if he saw us without shoes on.
As an adult, I never ever wear shoes at home. I wear shoes out mostly
because it's required in stores and such.
I have been known to leave my shoes at different homes, quite by accident.
I always take my shoes off as soon as practical and I might get a phone call
telling me I left my shoes, or I might look for them later and then remember
where I left them.
So making kids wear shoes might make them LOOSE them. Better reason than my
father had for making us wear them. Or just as good anyway. And I bet no
one will stomp their feet and break their toes to remind them NOT to wear them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ssag@... writes:
I have felt worried at times about what if cps see my children walking
down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet.
My dad MADE us wear shoes. So we wouldn't get cut/sick/anything that might
cost him money.
He would stomp really hard on our feet if he saw us without shoes on.
As an adult, I never ever wear shoes at home. I wear shoes out mostly
because it's required in stores and such.
I have been known to leave my shoes at different homes, quite by accident.
I always take my shoes off as soon as practical and I might get a phone call
telling me I left my shoes, or I might look for them later and then remember
where I left them.
So making kids wear shoes might make them LOOSE them. Better reason than my
father had for making us wear them. Or just as good anyway. And I bet no
one will stomp their feet and break their toes to remind them NOT to wear them.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<< I have felt worried at times about what if cps see my children walking
down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet. >>>>>
Depending on the child's age, just carrying their shoes for them in full
view of passers by defuses a lot of worry about cps. Also works for coats in
cold weather. If you smile and shrug, people may think you are "teaching a
lesson through experience" rather than just living freely, and may be more
humorous and light instead of judgmental.
I guess if the child is asking why the adult is interested in their feet,
the adult could be likely to add "cheeky and disrespectful" to the catalog
of complaints. It is adding more negative energy to the situation of adults'
meanness and judgmental attitudes. I agree that the adults own the problem
of their own feelings. Maybe Mom saying something like "I'm not worried
about them" would help refocus the adult's attention. Of course that only
works if you are present!
I think these "issues" are part of the spectrum of envy that we often have
to face. Envy from parents because we have so much less conflict with our
children about everyday stuff. Envy from kids because ours are not being
forced to do school or homework and get to watch tv/play/eat whenever. It is
impossible for me to change their feelings - they have to do that for
themselves. Sometimes I say something like, "Yes, we're so lucky".
Expressing Gratitude helps defuse the envy.
<<<<One more thing, my son is loving being able to grow his hair out long.
He is11 and his hair is now at his shoulders he wants to grow it long down
his back. I really want him to keep it out of his eyes, but he likes it that
way. I think he may be trying to hide behind his bangs, but he just says he
likes it. I know that a lot of people look at him and can't understand his
hair and are afraid to get to know him because of it. I have discussed my
feelings to him, but he says he doesn't care what other people think he
likes his hair long. I think it feels freeing to him. I feel in this case to
live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of choices for his own body
I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he will have to live the
consequences of his choice even how much I wish I could spare him that.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? >>>>
Sorta related.
My dd, Jayn (5.5) has not allowed me to brush her hair since June of last
year. Her hair is fine and was curly (think Shirley Temple). It is now in
three matted wads, with dreadlock like strands poking out. We do wash it
with shampoo and conditioner periodically when she is willing, and rinse it
in water almost every day, so it is an odd combination of stiffness and
softness. It is now so matted that it is growing in such a way that when I
eventually cut the wads off, it will be untangled - almost all the ends are
now captured - but appears to be turning straighter, more like dh's slight
wave.
Jayn is very happy with her unusual hairstyle and loves putting clips and
ornaments into the front. She also wears hats and backwards or sideways
baseball caps on occasion. She needs an adult size to get over the wads. If
we are going somewhere that might be vaguely formal, she will let me put it
into a bun - an interesting but not impossible exercise.
She has an outgoing personality, and is definitely "cute", as against
"pretty". Most people seem to accept her Phyllis Diller hair as part of her
specialness.
However, I found myself doing two things that I didn't like.
The first was with people (adults) I know, such as in my HS group, where
Jayn is pretty much odd-girl-out with her hair. It was telling them, as a
conversation about her hair may come up, about how I was ready with
conditioners and brushes for the moment that Jayn was willing to let me
"fix" her hair. Usually this would be a response to people having "helpful
suggestions" like particular products, but it came from my side, from a
desire to excuse myself - with the base assumption that her hair was some
kind of aberration or fault, that it was temporary, that it was an area that
I was "allowing" her to experiment. A sort of "she's wrong but will come
round soon, and I'm ready for when she does".
I have had to accept that this just isn't Jayn. She LOVES her wads.
The second thing came from a place of me being a bit embarrassed in public
places amongst strangers - a body language version of the same ideas as
above. I would pick at her hair, as if trying to tidy it a bit - thereby
drawing even more attention to it, and to my discomfort. James (dh) was the
person who actually pointed out the activity to me, with strongly worded
exhortations to desist.
The challenge for me has been to become genuinely acceptant of Jayn's hair,
rather than "temporarily" and superficially acceptant. That has been
facilitated by talking to her about it - and her emphatic expression of her
enjoyment of her hair. She tells me that she will let me cut her wads when
she is 100 years old.
So now *if* anyone has a negative comment to me, I usually just say, "Yes
she really loves her wads."
Robyn L. Coburn
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down the sidewalk barefoot. But it is not worth it to me to get them to stop
just because for so many other people they have "issues" with this.
I've told my kids that if grown-ups or kids are mean to them about their
preference to be barefoot they should ask that person why they are so
interested in their feet. >>>>>
Depending on the child's age, just carrying their shoes for them in full
view of passers by defuses a lot of worry about cps. Also works for coats in
cold weather. If you smile and shrug, people may think you are "teaching a
lesson through experience" rather than just living freely, and may be more
humorous and light instead of judgmental.
I guess if the child is asking why the adult is interested in their feet,
the adult could be likely to add "cheeky and disrespectful" to the catalog
of complaints. It is adding more negative energy to the situation of adults'
meanness and judgmental attitudes. I agree that the adults own the problem
of their own feelings. Maybe Mom saying something like "I'm not worried
about them" would help refocus the adult's attention. Of course that only
works if you are present!
I think these "issues" are part of the spectrum of envy that we often have
to face. Envy from parents because we have so much less conflict with our
children about everyday stuff. Envy from kids because ours are not being
forced to do school or homework and get to watch tv/play/eat whenever. It is
impossible for me to change their feelings - they have to do that for
themselves. Sometimes I say something like, "Yes, we're so lucky".
Expressing Gratitude helps defuse the envy.
<<<<One more thing, my son is loving being able to grow his hair out long.
He is11 and his hair is now at his shoulders he wants to grow it long down
his back. I really want him to keep it out of his eyes, but he likes it that
way. I think he may be trying to hide behind his bangs, but he just says he
likes it. I know that a lot of people look at him and can't understand his
hair and are afraid to get to know him because of it. I have discussed my
feelings to him, but he says he doesn't care what other people think he
likes his hair long. I think it feels freeing to him. I feel in this case to
live up to my principles of allowing him freedom of choices for his own body
I must let him wear his hair how he likes it and he will have to live the
consequences of his choice even how much I wish I could spare him that.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? >>>>
Sorta related.
My dd, Jayn (5.5) has not allowed me to brush her hair since June of last
year. Her hair is fine and was curly (think Shirley Temple). It is now in
three matted wads, with dreadlock like strands poking out. We do wash it
with shampoo and conditioner periodically when she is willing, and rinse it
in water almost every day, so it is an odd combination of stiffness and
softness. It is now so matted that it is growing in such a way that when I
eventually cut the wads off, it will be untangled - almost all the ends are
now captured - but appears to be turning straighter, more like dh's slight
wave.
Jayn is very happy with her unusual hairstyle and loves putting clips and
ornaments into the front. She also wears hats and backwards or sideways
baseball caps on occasion. She needs an adult size to get over the wads. If
we are going somewhere that might be vaguely formal, she will let me put it
into a bun - an interesting but not impossible exercise.
She has an outgoing personality, and is definitely "cute", as against
"pretty". Most people seem to accept her Phyllis Diller hair as part of her
specialness.
However, I found myself doing two things that I didn't like.
The first was with people (adults) I know, such as in my HS group, where
Jayn is pretty much odd-girl-out with her hair. It was telling them, as a
conversation about her hair may come up, about how I was ready with
conditioners and brushes for the moment that Jayn was willing to let me
"fix" her hair. Usually this would be a response to people having "helpful
suggestions" like particular products, but it came from my side, from a
desire to excuse myself - with the base assumption that her hair was some
kind of aberration or fault, that it was temporary, that it was an area that
I was "allowing" her to experiment. A sort of "she's wrong but will come
round soon, and I'm ready for when she does".
I have had to accept that this just isn't Jayn. She LOVES her wads.
The second thing came from a place of me being a bit embarrassed in public
places amongst strangers - a body language version of the same ideas as
above. I would pick at her hair, as if trying to tidy it a bit - thereby
drawing even more attention to it, and to my discomfort. James (dh) was the
person who actually pointed out the activity to me, with strongly worded
exhortations to desist.
The challenge for me has been to become genuinely acceptant of Jayn's hair,
rather than "temporarily" and superficially acceptant. That has been
facilitated by talking to her about it - and her emphatic expression of her
enjoyment of her hair. She tells me that she will let me cut her wads when
she is 100 years old.
So now *if* anyone has a negative comment to me, I usually just say, "Yes
she really loves her wads."
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.16 - Release Date: 5/24/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/23/2005 5:00:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ssag@... writes:
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?<<<<
I'm delayed chiming in on this but twice in the past month, Logan (12) has
been mistaken for a girl because of his long hair. Once he and I were in line
at the post office and an elderly man said, "Your daughter is going to look
just like you when she grows up." Logan and I caught each other's eye and
kept from laughing. I knew it would probably embarrass the gentleman much more
than Logan if we said anything so we just let it go. We had a great laugh
about it afterwards. The other incident was at a hotel eating breakfast when
an adjoining table asked if Logan and my niece (who has much darker skin than
my son) were both my daughters. I said..."Logan is my son and Cailin is my
niece" Both kids laughed about this later too.
When I asked Logan if this bothered him his response was, "I like my hair
and I don't much care what other people think about it." He is quite
comfortable with who he is and that seems to include his hair, the clothes he wears
and his viewpoints on life.
Neither of my children care much about clothes even my 15 year old daughter.
They are happy in t-shirts and jeans. It's an interesting contrast in the
summer when my 3 stepkids are with us. Two teen boys and a 12 year old girl
and they don't own anything that is not a popular name brand. All Abercrombie
or Gap and very conscious of the type of shoes they wear and hairstyles.
Lots of comments about what is cool and what isn't. All public schooled and
live in an affluent neighborhood. My stepson just turned 16 and he got either
an Audi or a Volvo. Those are good cars but it seems the brand names are
most important to all of them.
I'm not sure if that's more about being in a public schooled setting with
peer pressure or their family lifestyle. It does seem important to many of the
public schooled kids in our neighborhood also.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ssag@... writes:
>>>>really glad someone brought this issue this up. Between personal hygieneand hair length and clothes ,ect...
Where do you draw the line between induviduality and being presentable
enough for society?<<<<
I'm delayed chiming in on this but twice in the past month, Logan (12) has
been mistaken for a girl because of his long hair. Once he and I were in line
at the post office and an elderly man said, "Your daughter is going to look
just like you when she grows up." Logan and I caught each other's eye and
kept from laughing. I knew it would probably embarrass the gentleman much more
than Logan if we said anything so we just let it go. We had a great laugh
about it afterwards. The other incident was at a hotel eating breakfast when
an adjoining table asked if Logan and my niece (who has much darker skin than
my son) were both my daughters. I said..."Logan is my son and Cailin is my
niece" Both kids laughed about this later too.
When I asked Logan if this bothered him his response was, "I like my hair
and I don't much care what other people think about it." He is quite
comfortable with who he is and that seems to include his hair, the clothes he wears
and his viewpoints on life.
Neither of my children care much about clothes even my 15 year old daughter.
They are happy in t-shirts and jeans. It's an interesting contrast in the
summer when my 3 stepkids are with us. Two teen boys and a 12 year old girl
and they don't own anything that is not a popular name brand. All Abercrombie
or Gap and very conscious of the type of shoes they wear and hairstyles.
Lots of comments about what is cool and what isn't. All public schooled and
live in an affluent neighborhood. My stepson just turned 16 and he got either
an Audi or a Volvo. Those are good cars but it seems the brand names are
most important to all of them.
I'm not sure if that's more about being in a public schooled setting with
peer pressure or their family lifestyle. It does seem important to many of the
public schooled kids in our neighborhood also.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/2005 7:58:02 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
gailbrocop@... writes:
I'm not sure if that's more about being in a public schooled setting with
peer pressure or their family lifestyle.
-------
Could be the combination of parents who bought into peer pressure and think
it's a civilizing, reasonable thing, and encouraging their kids to care about
what the other kids think, supporting their buying habits SO that they'll be
"popular at school," and it just snowballs in those cases, I think.
In some places it's hard to get away from that because even the greater
culture is into the same kind of "houses must match" and "cars must be new," but
a cool thing about New Mexico is that because things don't rust, 30 year old
cars are way feasible transport, and houses rarely match anyway. In the 50's
tract neighborhoods the coolest thing is to customize house and yard. I'm
assuming that will be happening with the current-new silly neighborhoods where
the houses are the same and about five feet apart. They all look the same
now, but it's still New Mexico. Or maybe they've signed covenants to live
there that say they will not customize anything. <G> (I doubt it.)
Being creative in dress and hair is easier in northern New Mexico than in
most part of the U.S., I'm guessing, but I wouldn't be so quick to cheer my kids
on to be different if we lived in SE New Mexico (a.k.a. "Little Texas")
which is a pocket of redneck conservatism.
Within any area some are more conservative than others, so a conservative
family in a conservative area (where "conservative" means blending in with the
prevailing mode of dress/lifestyle) will reward kids for any conservative
tendencies.
Kirby had long hair when he was little, cut it off after the one-too-many
comments that he was in the wrong bathroom (not people being mean, just thinking
honestly he wasn't a boy), and said he would grow it again when he had
facial hair. He grew it again before facial hair. Once he had facial hair, he
was wanting it cut more often. He's never let anyone else cut it (I've
encouraged it that direction), but he wants me to do it. Last week he asked for
the back to be cut off and the front left longish, and I had doubts but it
worked out fine. Apparently the fear of someone saying "mullet" has lots of
naturally-occuring hair growth being chopped off in back. That too shall pass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gailbrocop@... writes:
I'm not sure if that's more about being in a public schooled setting with
peer pressure or their family lifestyle.
-------
Could be the combination of parents who bought into peer pressure and think
it's a civilizing, reasonable thing, and encouraging their kids to care about
what the other kids think, supporting their buying habits SO that they'll be
"popular at school," and it just snowballs in those cases, I think.
In some places it's hard to get away from that because even the greater
culture is into the same kind of "houses must match" and "cars must be new," but
a cool thing about New Mexico is that because things don't rust, 30 year old
cars are way feasible transport, and houses rarely match anyway. In the 50's
tract neighborhoods the coolest thing is to customize house and yard. I'm
assuming that will be happening with the current-new silly neighborhoods where
the houses are the same and about five feet apart. They all look the same
now, but it's still New Mexico. Or maybe they've signed covenants to live
there that say they will not customize anything. <G> (I doubt it.)
Being creative in dress and hair is easier in northern New Mexico than in
most part of the U.S., I'm guessing, but I wouldn't be so quick to cheer my kids
on to be different if we lived in SE New Mexico (a.k.a. "Little Texas")
which is a pocket of redneck conservatism.
Within any area some are more conservative than others, so a conservative
family in a conservative area (where "conservative" means blending in with the
prevailing mode of dress/lifestyle) will reward kids for any conservative
tendencies.
Kirby had long hair when he was little, cut it off after the one-too-many
comments that he was in the wrong bathroom (not people being mean, just thinking
honestly he wasn't a boy), and said he would grow it again when he had
facial hair. He grew it again before facial hair. Once he had facial hair, he
was wanting it cut more often. He's never let anyone else cut it (I've
encouraged it that direction), but he wants me to do it. Last week he asked for
the back to be cut off and the front left longish, and I had doubts but it
worked out fine. Apparently the fear of someone saying "mullet" has lots of
naturally-occuring hair growth being chopped off in back. That too shall pass.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>Where do you draw the line between individuality and being presentableenough for society?<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>
Advice on this list helped me relax about my kid's hygiene. Buying requested shampoos, etc., helped a lot too. And then age kicks in. Now I am trying to keep my mouth shut about how much hot water Lisa (12) is using for showers and shampooing! Jackie typically bathes about once a week, but hasn't started to get greasy or stinky yet.
I have a slightly different problem. Lisa likes to wear tanktops and some of them do not completely cover her bra. I can live with just the bra straps showing, even though it is a style that I don't care to wear myself. Kind of funny, really, as I remember when having a bra strap poke out was embarrassing, but now bras come in lots of pretty colors and designs and exposed straps have become a fashion statement.
Monday night we were going to an end of baseball season party for Jackie (YMCA league for 8-10 yo). Lisa had on a purple tank top with lace around the top edge. It barely covered the top of her bra, but not very well. I asked her to change because I was concerned that some of the people at the party would be offended by a girl her age wearing a top that exposed her bra that much. She did change, although she was pretty grumpy about it.
>>>>>>>>>>All Abercrombie or Gap and very conscious of the type of shoes they wear and hairstyles.>>>>>>>>>>I keep my eye out for Gap jeans at thrift shops because for some reason the cut usually fits me very well.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I say do not worry about what other people think - unless it is a rich
great aunt or someone who might decide not to leave you money! <G>
With three daughters who are all very creative - now 14, 17, and 20 -
we've been through all kinds of "styles" - and some seem inappropriate
to me. But they pass. Don't start having power struggles over clothing.
NOT worth it.
The low-cut tank top thing is the style - bras show - they're MEANT to
show - that's why they're made in all those cool colors and patterns.
The layered look now INCLUDES the bra!
So - I have a 14 yo wearing them, too.
And my very very modest 17 yo got herself right to the edge of it - had
a little smidgen of bra showing the other day. You gotta KNOW this is a
very accepted style when she feels comfortable in it.
-pam
great aunt or someone who might decide not to leave you money! <G>
With three daughters who are all very creative - now 14, 17, and 20 -
we've been through all kinds of "styles" - and some seem inappropriate
to me. But they pass. Don't start having power struggles over clothing.
NOT worth it.
The low-cut tank top thing is the style - bras show - they're MEANT to
show - that's why they're made in all those cool colors and patterns.
The layered look now INCLUDES the bra!
So - I have a 14 yo wearing them, too.
And my very very modest 17 yo got herself right to the edge of it - had
a little smidgen of bra showing the other day. You gotta KNOW this is a
very accepted style when she feels comfortable in it.
-pam
On May 25, 2005, at 8:07 AM, nellebelle wrote:
> Monday night we were going to an end of baseball season party for
> Jackie (YMCA league for 8-10 yo). Lisa had on a purple tank top with
> lace around the top edge. It barely covered the top of her bra, but
> not very well. I asked her to change because I was concerned that
> some of the people at the party would be offended by a girl her age
> wearing a top that exposed her bra that much. She did change,
> although she was pretty grumpy about it.
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<I have a slightly different problem. Lisa likes to wear tanktops and
some of them do not completely cover her bra. I can live with just the bra
straps showing, even though it is a style that I don't care to wear myself.
Kind of funny, really, as I remember when having a bra strap poke out was
embarrassing, but now bras come in lots of pretty colors and designs and
exposed straps have become a fashion statement.>>>>
She may be too small for this idea to work, but: Travelsmith (a catalogue of
travel clothing and website) has really nice varieties of tank tops and
camisoles with built in bras in a wide range of fabrics and colors. Maybe
the smallest size would fit her and make the problem disappear. I bought a
ton of them because I can't go without a bra, and t-shirts often get too
hot, and I'm just too old fashioned to like the visible bra strap look
unless the bras are pretty (meant to be seen), and I don't have any of
those.
<<<<<Monday night we were going to an end of baseball season party for
Jackie (YMCA league for 8-10 yo). Lisa had on a purple tank top with lace
around the top edge. It barely covered the top of her bra, but not very
well. I asked her to change because I was concerned that some of the people
at the party would be offended by a girl her age wearing a top that exposed
her bra that much. She did change, although she was pretty grumpy about
it.>>>>
Maybe dye some of her bras to match or coordinate with her favorite tanks,
to the effect is of layering??
The broader issue of walking the line between child's autonomy, the fashion
practices that are peer accepted, and the social expectations of adults who
may be conservative or judgmental, is sometimes tough.
Worrying excessively about other people's opinions is something that is a
personal growth challenge for me. In a similar situation my task would be to
examine my reaction closely to make sure I was being reasonable and accurate
rather than letting my personal timidity or paranoia take over.
Robyn L. Coburn
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some of them do not completely cover her bra. I can live with just the bra
straps showing, even though it is a style that I don't care to wear myself.
Kind of funny, really, as I remember when having a bra strap poke out was
embarrassing, but now bras come in lots of pretty colors and designs and
exposed straps have become a fashion statement.>>>>
She may be too small for this idea to work, but: Travelsmith (a catalogue of
travel clothing and website) has really nice varieties of tank tops and
camisoles with built in bras in a wide range of fabrics and colors. Maybe
the smallest size would fit her and make the problem disappear. I bought a
ton of them because I can't go without a bra, and t-shirts often get too
hot, and I'm just too old fashioned to like the visible bra strap look
unless the bras are pretty (meant to be seen), and I don't have any of
those.
<<<<<Monday night we were going to an end of baseball season party for
Jackie (YMCA league for 8-10 yo). Lisa had on a purple tank top with lace
around the top edge. It barely covered the top of her bra, but not very
well. I asked her to change because I was concerned that some of the people
at the party would be offended by a girl her age wearing a top that exposed
her bra that much. She did change, although she was pretty grumpy about
it.>>>>
Maybe dye some of her bras to match or coordinate with her favorite tanks,
to the effect is of layering??
The broader issue of walking the line between child's autonomy, the fashion
practices that are peer accepted, and the social expectations of adults who
may be conservative or judgmental, is sometimes tough.
Worrying excessively about other people's opinions is something that is a
personal growth challenge for me. In a similar situation my task would be to
examine my reaction closely to make sure I was being reasonable and accurate
rather than letting my personal timidity or paranoia take over.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Krisula Moyer
On the subject of shoes (or *not* wearing them), I used to insist all the
kids wear them in stores and restaurants because, "The store requires that
we wear shoes " or something like that. I tried to point out the little
signs that I remember seeing in windows saying "no shoes no shirt no
service" or whatever but surprisingly, maybe just where we live, there don't
seem to be any.
My 11yo and 9yo wear them to go in stores but the 4yo doesn't want to put
them on. So, if there is no sign I might offer to carry a pair of flip fops
in my purse just in case a store manager or someone asks her to put on some
shoes. No one ever has. I remember once in a grocery store being told they
could ride in the cart barefooted so that's been the rule there but just
about everywhere else we've been surprised by how little anyone cared. It's
a beach community too though so it's not too unusual to see peaople walking
around in bathing suits.
kids wear them in stores and restaurants because, "The store requires that
we wear shoes " or something like that. I tried to point out the little
signs that I remember seeing in windows saying "no shoes no shirt no
service" or whatever but surprisingly, maybe just where we live, there don't
seem to be any.
My 11yo and 9yo wear them to go in stores but the 4yo doesn't want to put
them on. So, if there is no sign I might offer to carry a pair of flip fops
in my purse just in case a store manager or someone asks her to put on some
shoes. No one ever has. I remember once in a grocery store being told they
could ride in the cart barefooted so that's been the rule there but just
about everywhere else we've been surprised by how little anyone cared. It's
a beach community too though so it's not too unusual to see peaople walking
around in bathing suits.