greencow32766

I have a 12 yr old visually impaired daughter, pulled her out of
school back in Oct. No problem with school really, she had very
caring teachers and a wonderful vision teacher that kept a close eye
on her - We pulled her out due to her self-esteem. She was so
unhappy, she really couldn't keep up etc, she felt like everyday she
was already starting off behind. Her vision makes it hard to find
her friends in a crowd etc... well, I could type forever about
that..........She is so much happier now, I feel 100% comfortable
with our decision to pull her out. As I'm sure most new
homeschoolers to, we've tried various things trying to find out what
will work best for us. We first only used internet to try to
continue on what she had started in school - that didn't work, then
we bought several books/workbooks for each subject, that didn't work,
we dabbled with unschooling and she ran with her love of Japan,
anime, manga etc... which was thrilling - it proved to me that she'll
give 150% with something she likes. I'm trying to as a
parent/teacher just make things available to her that should would
have been learning this year in school - library books on geography,
history videos, recording shows on cable about the human body etc....
The thing is she won't just on her own grab a video or a library
book, I have to say "Okay, lets watch this video" she of course
fights me the whole time - Am I trying too much? It's scary to think
this whole school year could go by and all she's really done and been
interested in was Japan. With her main problem with her vision being
light sensitive, she's a night owl. She's a different person at
night, happier, giggly, energetic, chatty etc... I can only stay up
with her for so long because I'm lucky enough to be able to do most
of my job from home BUT I have to be up & ready for phone calls by
8am. Night time would be prime time for her where she'd be so open
to things. During the day, I fight with her to get her up, then
she's just grumpy all day until the sun goes down!!!! When I have to
go to the office (which is at my mom & dad's house) I pack her
backback with stuff to do - not workbooks or anything "school-like"
but she'll manage to doze off on the couch. She loves the computer
and our rule is she can't get on until 5pm when all her friends get
on after they've gotten out of school. Sometimes I think I should
only let her on the computer a few times a week but I have to admit
that she's done more reading online than in her whole life which has
never come easy for her with her vision but she can read anime storys
online, read show spoilers online etc... and she's reading YEAH!!!!!
so she's doing other things on the computer that are "educational".
I just worry that we aren't doing enough.....I do take her to school
for chorus everyday, she's doing an art class every other week
through our homeschool group and a classical composers/shakespeare
class through our homeschool group each week. Today is Thursday and
all we've done is those classes - along with lots of conversations
about things in the car like religion, Terri Shiavo & brain
functions, bird care etc..... Our conversations are great. But what
about math, spelling, grammar, etc..... It's just scary!!!!!!! If
she had her choice, she'd stay up all night reading anime on the
computer, looking at anime pictures, checking out anime conventions,
making flyers etc.. on Microsoft Publisher, talking to friends,
playing Final Fantasy on the Playstation, Playing with her birds and
our dogs and snacking. Then she'll manage to do her 3 classes and
then sleep the rest of the day.................AHHHHHHH

HELP!!!!!
Tracie

Pam Sorooshian

Tracie - She sounds like a wonderful kid and it sounds like you got her
out of school before her love of learning was crushed so
CONGRATULATIONS! And she sounds like a sensible kid who objects and
resists being coerced into using her time and energy to do things in
which she is completely uninterested. This is a POSITIVE trait - I hope
you can see it that way. She's way more mentally healthy than those
kids who just do what they're told, go along, make the minimal effort
to placate those in authority over them.

Your description of her day today sounds great - I LOVE it that you see
the value of your conversations. You sound like a natural-born
unschooling family EXCEPT you have some learning to do about real
learning (not schooling).

Instead of giving you specific suggestions, I just want to encourage
you to browse around on Sandra's website <sandradodd.com> and read
whatever catches your fancy.

In the meantime, I wish you'd take a break from trying to make her
"keep up" or learn what she'd learn in school, etc. How about just
taking the rest of the year off and enjoying yourselves, instead, while
YOU learn about learning?

She'll still learn. I guarantee it. In fact, just try to stop her! <G>

She won't necessarily learn what is taught in school (remember,
"taught" does not mean "learned") but what she learns will be
important, deep, lasting, and will ALSO lead eventually to all kinds of
wonderful things like her being self-motivated, independent,
responsible for herself, with self-understanding far beyond those kids
who have been directed and micro-managed for most of their lives.
There are many hidden lessons that kids learn very very well when they
are "schooled." These are lessons you probably don't want her to learn
and don't mean to teach - "learning is hard," "other people know better
than you do what you should learn," "your interests don't really
matter," "don't trust your own inner voice," "go along to get along,"
"other people's judgment of you is what really counts," and on and on.

Maybe the one thing you could do would be to find a way that you could
work out your schedules so that she does have the chance to be up late
and sleep late. At LEAST let her stay up late and then nap during the
day. Lots of our kids do that and she has a particularly good reason
for it - honor her needs.

-pam



On Mar 31, 2005, at 9:46 AM, greencow32766 wrote:

> Today is Thursday and
> all we've done is those classes - along with lots of conversations
> about things in the car like religion, Terri Shiavo & brain
> functions, bird care etc..... Our conversations are great. But what
> about math, spelling, grammar, etc..... It's just scary!!!!!!! If
> she had her choice, she'd stay up all night reading anime on the
> computer, looking at anime pictures, checking out anime conventions,
> making flyers etc.. on Microsoft Publisher, talking to friends,
> playing Final Fantasy on the Playstation, Playing with her birds and
> our dogs and snacking. Then she'll manage to do her 3 classes and
> then sleep the rest of the day.................AHHHHHHH

Pam Sorooshian

I wrote this, but I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
learned by unschooling kids?

-pam

> There are many hidden lessons that kids learn very very well when they
> are "schooled." These are lessons you probably don't want her to learn
> and don't mean to teach - "learning is hard," "other people know better
> than you do what you should learn," "your interests don't really
> matter," "don't trust your own inner voice," "go along to get along,"
> "other people's judgment of you is what really counts," and on and on.

Jackie Chovanes

On Mar 31, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

>
> I wrote this, but I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
> are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
> learned by unschooling kids?
>
> -pam
>
>> There are many hidden lessons that kids learn very very well when they
>> are "schooled." These are lessons you probably don't want her to learn
>> and don't mean to teach - "learning is hard," "other people know
>> better
>> than you do what you should learn," "your interests don't really
>> matter," "don't trust your own inner voice," "go along to get along,"
>> "other people's judgment of you is what really counts," and on and on.

"Learning can only happen in a classroom or under the supervision of a
teacher," "Learning requires testing in order to be valid," "Learning
is something you do to please your: teacher, parents, coach ..." and,
the one I think is the worst, "Learning is only valuable for what it
can get you: a grade, into a "good" college, a certain job -- it has
no intrinsic value of it's own."

Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> -pam
>
> > There are many hidden lessons that kids learn very very well
when >they
> > are "schooled." These are lessons you probably don't want her to
>learn
> > and don't mean to teach - "learning is hard," "other people know
>better
> > than you do what you should learn," "your interests don't really
> > matter," "don't trust your own inner voice," "go along to get
>along,"
> > "other people's judgment of you is what really counts," and on
and >on.
People who are different from you - whether it's age, race, beliefs,
physical differences, whatever - are to be avoided.

Don't show emotions unless they are happy ones - and be careful with
those too

Originality is bad, conformity is good

He who has the most toys wins

He who has the most toys gets them taken from him by bigger people

Don't interfere, it's none of your business

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/31/05 11:32:58 AM, McGeath3@... writes:

<< She was so

unhappy, she really couldn't keep up etc, she felt like everyday she

was already starting off behind. >>

So...
Nearly everything school does, parents can do at home.
Part of your job should be to make sure home isn't just a quieter version of
more-of-the-same.

-=-I'm trying to as a parent/teacher. . .=-=-

Would you do differently if you were trying as just her parent instead of
considering yourself a hybrid creature?

-=-The thing is she won't just on her own grab a video or a library

book, I have to say "Okay, lets watch this video" she of course

fights me the whole time --=-

See everything above.
Who's side are you on?

-=-Am I trying too much? -=-

Trying the wrong things is all, I think.

-=-It's scary to think

this whole school year could go by and all she's really done and been

interested in was Japan. -=-

In school, Japan might be a one week unit with a test and that's all of Japan.
In the real world (as you already know, but you said "scary" so you're
probably freezing up when you try to see), Japan is geography, history, language,
art, fashion, culture, architecture, commerce, religion, electronics, animation,
mythology, theatre, music, food, and maybe a couple of other things.

Did you know that in Japan they have an entire disease we've never heard of
here? BIG disease. They put people in hospitals for it. I don't know the
Japanese word, but it translates literally as "school refusal."

-=-It's scary to think

this whole school year could go by and all she's really done and been

interested in was Japan. -=-

How did she "do" Japan?
Do you mean to learn about it and care about it and tie it in to every other
thing she knows about? Sounds more like she's living her own life and doing
her own learning. Japan didn't even know she was there, but she knows Japan is
there!

Her learning is great.

Your fears, we can help you work out.
http://SandraDodd.com/dot/elvis
When you read that, you could overlay "Japan" for the "Elvis" base.

-=-With her main problem with her vision being

light sensitive, she's a night owl. -=-

Lots of people are, even if they see well, but how wonderful that electricity
will allow people to be up late at night safely, not having to worry about
candles or oil lamps burning the house down. Cool!

-=-She's a different person at

night, happier, giggly, energetic, chatty etc... -=-

I've noticed that here too, with my kids. Some of the best discussions and
ideas happen late at night. I wrote an article about it:
http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning

-=- Night time would be prime time for her where she'd be so open

to things. -=-

Night time IS prime time for her.
She doesn't need you with her to be open to things. There are books, movies,
the internet, art supplies.

-=- During the day, I fight with her to get her up, then

she's just grumpy all day until the sun goes down!!!! -=-

Two bads.
Bad you're fighting, bad she's made grumpy.
You don't need to do that.

Why does she need to be awake? You need to work, right?

-=-She loves the computer

and our rule is she can't get on until 5pm when all her friends get

on after they've gotten out of school. -=-

This doesn't seem designed to make her happy or to help her learn.
If her opportunities to learn and her happiness aren't among your very top
priorities, you'll have a hard time homeschooling.

Please read this. It's about joy and new days:
http://www.unschooling.com/library/essays/essay06.shtml

And here are some other things about living by principles rather than by
rules:

http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/benrules

-=-If she had her choice, she'd stay up all night reading anime on the

computer, looking at anime pictures, checking out anime conventions,

making flyers etc.. on Microsoft Publisher, talking to friends,

playing Final Fantasy on the Playstation, Playing with her birds and

our dogs and snacking. -=-

I really like this.
That's the life she should be leading.
And you could spend some energy learning to see how fantastically WONDERFUL
that life is.

You might want to l look at this page, about what others have been sure their
kids would do if they didn't make them do something else. Your list is WAY
better.

http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet

-=-Then she'll manage to do her 3 classes and

then sleep the rest of the day..............AHHHHHHH

HE
Z*LP!!!!!-=-

I would drop the classes she doesn't love.
If she loves the music class, GREAT. If she doesn't, drop it.
Ditto others.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Sandra

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Jackie Chovanes <jchovanes@...>
and,
the one I think is the worst, "Learning is only valuable for what it
can get you: a grade, into a "good" college, a certain job -- it has
no intrinsic value of its own."

-=-=-=-=-=-

I think this one is the worst and most long-lasting. It's also the one
that raises its head in "the real world" when schooled kids start
working.

It results in adults who do the least amount of work and still remain
employable. Who never do any "extra" because it won't bring them any
reward.

They have a hard time RElearning that learning is cool in and of
itself---that you don't have to "get" anything in order to enjoy it.

Bad damage---in many ways.

~Kelly

Deb Lewis

***what are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
learned by unschooling kids?***


It's better to not say anything than to risk being wrong.

If you don't know all the answers you're stupid.

Deb L

averyschmidt

> It's better to not say anything than to risk being wrong.
>
> If you don't know all the answers you're stupid.

The flip side of this can be that if you *do* know all the answers
it might be better not to say anything that might make you look too
smart/teacher's pet-ish and attract the disdain of your peers.
I have a very clear memory (clear like it could have been last week)
of being in my fourth grade reading group- the top group. It was my
turn to read aloud, and when I came to the word "knowledge" my
teacher was ready to help me with it but I read it smoothly and
fluently without missing a beat. The teacher, happily surprised at
my ability, smiled hugely and said "very GOOD Patti!" and I could
immediately feel a change in the atmosphere- I remember feeling the
other kids' eyes on me and staring down at my book with a flushed
face. My 9yo self concluded that it was safest to appear exactly
average in the classroom so as not to attract *any* focus to
myself. During my next turn I pretended to stumble over what I
thought was the "right" amount of words.

Patti

sheila

"In school, Japan might be a one week unit with a test and that's all of Japan.
In the real world (as you already know, but you said "scary" so you're
probably freezing up when you try to see), Japan is geography, history, language,
art, fashion, culture, architecture, commerce, religion, electronics, animation,
mythology, theatre, music, food, and maybe a couple of other things."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The mention of Japan made me think of a Grace Llewellyn quote:
"In the end, the secret to learning is so simple: forget about it. Think only about whatever you love. Follow it, do it, dream about it. One day, you will glance up at your collection of Japanese literature, or trip over the solar oven you built, and it will hit you: learning was there all the time, happening by itself."

- Grace Llewellyn,
The Teenage Liberation Handbook (Element Publishing, 1997).

Sheila






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

**

I wrote this, but I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
learned by unschooling kids?**

-- The bell is more important than the lesson.

-- The rules don't have to make sense.

-- Questions prompted by your own curiousity are off topic.

-- You only have to "learn" a fact until the test is given.

-- There is a simple "right" answer to every question.

-- Wiggling is bad.

The current one that ticks me off, that is being said explicitly, rather than implicitly -- "Kids who go to preschool grow up to be more successful." (I need a bumper sticker that says "Corelation is not causation." Without seeing the details of the studies quoted, I don't know for sure if they are making this elementary mistake. But it sure smells like they are.)

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/31/05 6:24:14 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< -- Questions prompted by your own curiousity are off topic. >>

Oooh!

OOOOH!

I know the answer.

Either "That's not going to be on the test" or "They'll cover that next year."

Sandra

Pam Sorooshian

On Mar 31, 2005, at 5:06 PM, averyschmidt wrote:

> During my next turn I pretended to stumble over what I
> thought was the "right" amount of words.

I used to miss questions on math tests, on purpose. Same reason.

-pam

[email protected]

**I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
learned by unschooling kids?**

Many learn not to expect that things will make sense. They expect "learning"
to be rote memorization long enough to pass the test, and nothing more. They
don't ask questions because they don't expect the answers to make any
difference in their understanding.

Some learn to choose books solely by length or "reading level", without
regard to interest.

Deborah

Jackie Chovanes

On Mar 31, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

> The current one that ticks me off, that is being said explicitly,
> rather than implicitly -- "Kids who go to preschool grow up to be
> more successful." (I need a bumper sticker that says "Corelation is
> not causation." Without seeing the details of the studies quoted, I
> don't know for sure if they are making this elementary mistake. But
> it sure smells like they are.)
>
> Betsy

Diane Keith (author of "Carschooling" and owner of the Unpreschool
list) has a group called UniversalPreschool that was set up
specifically to fight against California's proposed mandatory preschool
law. I don't have the URL, but I'm pretty sure it's a yahoo group.
Her email is diane@.... I'm sure she has info on the studies
you're referring to. I seem to remember her writing that they were
done very poor and otherwise disadvantaged children, so the results
were very skewed.

Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...

Pam Sorooshian

On Mar 31, 2005, at 10:16 PM, DACunefare@... wrote:

> Many learn not to expect that things will make sense. They expect
> "learning"
> to be rote memorization long enough to pass the test, and nothing
> more. They
> don't ask questions because they don't expect the answers to make any
> difference in their understanding.

YES - this is the number one effect of schooling that I see in my
college students. They truly don't expect things to be understandable.
It makes them SEEM mentally lazy because they don't bother to try to
understand - their goal seems to be to memorize what they can of what
the book and teacher say and spit as much out on a test as possible.
Those who are good at that are considered "smart" and the other
students seem to think they were just born that way - which is true, to
some extent.

Even the "smart" students, though, very seldom exhibit a desire for
understanding. They don't even equate "learning" and "understanding" -
to them "learning" IS memorizing long enough to do well on a test. When
my kids take college courses, the teachers go nuts over what fantastic
students they are - they stand out by a mile. I know why - it is
because the teachers can see in their eyes, read in their body
language, hear in their voices and tell just by the looks on their
faces that they are there to learn and understand, not to swallow and
regurgitate undigested material. There are teachers who get excited by
the existence of such rare students. I know this - I'm lucky - LUCKY -
if I get one in a class of 35 students. There are many semesters that I
don't have any students who are "there to learn."

This is what I wanted for my kids - to NOT have that light snuffed out.

It is why what we're doing really is "UN-schooling." Sometimes people
complain about the negativity of that word or that it only says what
we're "not" doing instead of what we are doing. True enough - but that
IS the point of NOT schooling them - we're NOT doing to them what
schooling does to most kids. And NOT schooling them is a big huge deal.

If everybody in a country was completely brainwashed and there were
just a few people who managed, somehow, to escape or avoid being
brainwashed, the fact that they were "UN-brainwashed" would be the
logical way to describe them.

That's the case with our children - being "UN-schooled" is the logical
way to describe people who are among the few who have managed to escape
or avoid being "schooled."

-pam

[email protected]

For Pam's list:

People younger than you are inferior.

People older than you are better.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

> **I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
> are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
> learned by unschooling kids?**

It's a zero sum game...for you to win, someone else has to lose or do
badly, e.g., being graded on a bell curve. Rewards are scarce, so you
need to get yours and keep others from getting them first.

Danielle Conger

Pam Sorooshian wrote:

>I know why - it is
>because the teachers can see in their eyes, read in their body
>language, hear in their voices and tell just by the looks on their
>faces that they are there to learn and understand, not to swallow and
>regurgitate undigested material. There are teachers who get excited by
>the existence of such rare students. I know this - I'm lucky - LUCKY -
>if I get one in a class of 35 students. There are many semesters that I
>don't have any students who are "there to learn."
>
>This is what I wanted for my kids - to NOT have that light snuffed out.
>

When I was teaching at Penn State (6 years, main campus) I never had a
homeschooled student, but this was the major difference that I saw in
the returning ed students--those there on the GI bill or people going to
college after several years out working. These people *truly* wanted to
be there, wanted to be learning in a way that the kids fresh out of
highschool did not. They also had life experiences to share and connect
knowledge to in a way that was so refreshing and interesting. Having a
class full of the same dick and jane gets really boring, and there's
only so many times one can see an essay that begins with a dictionary
definition before becoming really jaded. I can only imagine what it
would have been like to have an Unschooled kid in one of my classes.

Problem is the dichotomy such students set up in a discussion
class--they just leave the other kids in the dust with their ability to
think quickly and critically, make connections and draw conclusions. It
always amazed me how incapable the majority of students were of simply
having an OPINION--they were just waiting to be told what to think. When
I'd tell them to form an opinion, not my opinion, but their own critical
opinion, they were not only incapable, they were suspicious because for
the past 12 to 14 years of their lives they'd been taught that their
opinion did not matter.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Pam Sorooshian

On Apr 1, 2005, at 6:30 AM, mamaaj2000 wrote:

> It's a zero sum game...for you to win, someone else has to lose or do
> badly, e.g., being graded on a bell curve. Rewards are scarce, so you
> need to get yours and keep others from getting them first.

Oh yeah - and those teachers who claim NOT to grade on a curve are
frequently being untruthful. They STILL can only give so many "A's" and
so many "B's" and so on.

Where I teach college, I once gave "A's" to an entire class - it was an
unusual group, small class, summer school, and 80 percent of them my
own former students.

I didn't get rehired for the next couple of semesters and when they
finally called and wanted me back at that college, the dean called me
in first and said, "We had some concerns about your grading policies."
HUH? I'd taught there about 15 years before that - and he simply
STOPPED offering me courses because I'd given "A's" to one whole class?
It didn't matter - they want everybody's grade distribution to end up
about the same. He TOLD me that. He gave me printouts of the grade
distributions for our department, division, and the college - I was
told in no uncertain terms that my grade distribution ought to match
those pretty closely. I don't have to grade on a curve - just make my
grading scale work out that way - the suggestion was to have enough
subjectively-graded assignments that even if they all do well on the
objective tests I could give them different grades based on the
subjective work.

Blech.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On Apr 1, 2005, at 6:42 AM, Danielle Conger wrote:

> It
> always amazed me how incapable the majority of students were of simply
> having an OPINION--they were just waiting to be told what to think.
> When
> I'd tell them to form an opinion, not my opinion, but their own
> critical
> opinion, they were not only incapable, they were suspicious because for
> the past 12 to 14 years of their lives they'd been taught that their
> opinion did not matter.

This is exactly my experience, too. And they're often extremely
suspicious that it is a trick - that, in fact, their grade is going to
depend, not on how well they argue their own position, but on how well
they guess my opinion and spout it.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

For the record and in the interest of this list not spreading false
rumors - there is NO mandatory preschool law currently proposed in
California.

There is fear on the part of some homeschoolers that making preschool
AVAILABLE to all children will eventually lead to making it mandatory.

-pam

On Apr 1, 2005, at 3:31 AM, Jackie Chovanes wrote:

> specifically to fight against California's proposed mandatory preschool
> law.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/05 6:58:05 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< This is what I wanted for my kids - to NOT have that light snuffed out.

<<It is why what we're doing really is "UN-schooling." Sometimes people
complain about the negativity of that word or that it only says what
we're "not" doing instead of what we are doing. >>



[To the frequently voiced complaint that the word "unschooling" seems
negative, this was written years ago and has not been bested:]

"Lots of people make this point, but I never see the negation as negative in
a value-judgment sense when I use the word--to me unschooling is as positive
as unchaining, unbinding, unleashing, unfolding, unfurling, unlimiting....

"All mean freedom and growth and vast possibilities to me."

Suzanne Carter

That and other definitions of unschooling are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/05 7:27:38 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< People younger than you are inferior.

People older than you are better. >>


[CLAPPING HARD AS THEY DO ON FAMILY FEUD AND SAYING ENTHUSIASTICALLY:]

Good answer! Good answer!

Especially because they NAME these ranks, and people seem required to use
them outside of school. TOTAL STRANGERS, old men, say "What grade are you in?"
and any child is expected to answer.

I might never have noticed that had my kids not HAD that ready answer, and
they've baffled many strangers by pausing and thinking instead of immediately
responding with "third grade" or "sophomore in high school" or something. They
say, "I don't go to school," which even among most homeschoolers is NOT "the
right answer."

Then the strangers say, "But what grade are you in?" and these renegades from
heirarchy say "We don't do grades."

And then, sure enough, others (especially kids) do not know how to treat them.

Are they superior? Equal? Inferior?
If they would only state a grade level, our neighbors across the cul-de-sac
would be able to interact with them, but they didn't and couldn't, and so those
boys didn't come back after about a visit and a half during which time they
couldn't stop asking "but what about sports?" and "What do you mean, you're not
in a grade? How old are you?!"

When I was a very young teacher and had a small straight body, I went to a
Jr. High sock-hop disguised as an alien, entirely unidentifiable as to male or
female, teacher or student, and I walked differently. No one was comfortable
in the least. Everyone was afraid to be too nice or too mean to me because
surely I WAS inferior or superior, and they didn't know which, and seemed
terrified to guess wrong. No one would dance with me, though I tried. What if I
were the opposite gender? Or what if I were just the geekiest kid there?
After about twenty minutes, someone spotted and recognized my wristwatch.
Bummer. I was having big sociological fun. Then when I de-hooded, everyone was ha
ppy and it had (in retrospect) been fun and amusing for them, because it
turned out okay.

John Holt kind of did that when he wrote, because though he would say he had
been a teacher, he didn't talk about any degrees he might have or what his
"rank" in the world as a man was, so that the books could be taken on the merit
of their ideas. Rough stuff! Lots of people hesitate at that point, and don't
know whether to respect the ideas or reject them unread.

Online writings have an advantage, I think, though, in that way. We can't
see height or beauty of face or limp. We don't know who's poor or rich, whose
computer is the spiffiest and newest, and who's limping along on an antique.
We can't tell country club from welfare, or the Mercedes convertible from the
used Toyota Corolla here, so the unspoken messages of adult society (where you
live, where you work, what you wear, where you play, what you drive to get
there) are missing.

Good ideas will fly and bad ideas will flop.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/05 7:50:17 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< Oh yeah - and those teachers who claim NOT to grade on a curve are
frequently being untruthful. They STILL can only give so many "A's" and
so many "B's" and so on. >>

But if Kirby's recent English 101 teacher had graded on the curve, she'd
either have given an A (didn't) or not given four Fs (did).

We were encouraged to grade on a "skewed bell curve" when I was teaching, so
that the bulk of the grades were B and C+ That way the kids weren't crushed
(some where, but then by that thinking they should just compete harder for that
large store of B/C+ and knock someone else OUT of those spots), and they
could think "I'm so near an A, I'll just work a little harder."

Nasty carrot and mean stick.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/1/05 9:15:27 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< There is fear on the part of some homeschoolers that making preschool
AVAILABLE to all children will eventually lead to making it mandatory. >>

There is also hope and intent on the part of the NEA and their increasing
pool of un- and under-employed early-childhood-ed specialists that it will become
mandatory in more and more states, which leads eventually to federal mandate.

If that is no longer their plan, it was a few years back when my friend
Jennifer got her QUICKIE (one year from BA to MA) degree in early childhood ed. I
think it's terrible that her kids were in daycare so she could go to college
to learn about how children learn, and our friendship is not as good as it
used to be.

Still, it shouldn't affect homeschoolers.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/31/05 11:16:43 PM, DACunefare@... writes:

<< Some learn to choose books solely by length or "reading level", without
regard to interest. >>

That's sad. Sometimes when a kid HAS chosen a book by interest, the teacher
will simply say "No, that's too long" or "that's too hard for you."

Yuck. My stomach is having memories.

When I first quit teaching, I couldn't even hear a news story on "the state
of the schools" or anything about schools. I skipped Newsweek articles and all
that. Keith would turn things off if he knew it would stress me. I was
really angry and wounded and frustrated for a few years.

I'm nearly completely over it, but that reminder of how books are chosen gave
me a momentary jolt of sorrow.

Sandra

Jackie Chovanes

On Apr 1, 2005, at 11:13 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:

>
> For the record and in the interest of this list not spreading false
> rumors - there is NO mandatory preschool law currently proposed in
> California.
>
> There is fear on the part of some homeschoolers that making preschool
> AVAILABLE to all children will eventually lead to making it mandatory.
>
> -pam

Whoops! Sorry for the misinformation -- just want to say I'm sure the
mistake was mine and not Diane's. Thanks for the correction, Pam.
>
> On Apr 1, 2005, at 3:31 AM, Jackie Chovanes wrote:
>
>> specifically to fight against California's proposed mandatory
>> preschool
>> law.
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...

Pam Sorooshian

On Apr 1, 2005, at 9:47 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> << Oh yeah - and those teachers who claim NOT to grade on a curve are
> frequently being untruthful. They STILL can only give so many "A's" and
> so many "B's" and so on. >>
>
> But if Kirby's recent English 101 teacher had graded on the curve,
> she'd
> either have given an A (didn't) or not given four Fs (did).

Right - the unwritten rule is you should not give too MANY "A's" and
"B's" - you can give none if you want, nobody complains about grading
harder than average - they just worry about too many good grades.
Grading is a filtration system - if you give too many high grades, the
filters won't be doing their job - keeping people in their places -
with only so many A students and so many B students, etc.

It isn't a curve - but it isn't a system where everybody can earn the
highest marks, either.

-pam

emonade8

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> I wrote this, but I'd like to ask all of you to add to my list --- what
> are the "hidden lessons that ARE learned" from schooling and not
> learned by unschooling kids?


"The only purpose of reading is to correctly answer the questions at
the end of the chapter."

"If you are not fast enough to leave your class at one end of the
school, stop at your locker to change books, and make it to the other
end of the school for your algebra class in 4 minutes, you have no
respect for the teacher and do not belong in that algebra class."

Jenn
Mom to Emelynn, 5
and Adrienne, 4