Heidi Here

By limiting it you're creating a desire for it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with this 100%. I am 41 years old, I was raised the same way ..very controlling parents when it same to food. We only had candy in our house at Easter and Halloween, No soda, No chips , I think the only kind of "junk" food we had was Ice cream once a week. My Mom Make everything from "scratch" ,Cookies , cakes on occasion and all meals were homemade....you would think that by me growing up in such a non junk food homemade from scratch kind of home that I today would eat that way...NO. When I moved out of my parents house I stocked up on all kinds of junk..drank soda by the 3 liter (a day) ate candy until I felt sick...all that stuff people think they are "teaching" there kids not to do...
I am not saying that every person who is raised to eat only good or mostly good will turn to the worst like I did but I know that I did so my kids have always had free rein over what that want to eat , one is a vegetarian, one would rather have fruits and veggies over chips and candy and one is still finding out what she really likes. So I would please try to let go of the food control, leave the room when they drink the soda if it bothers you so much. I am not saying that in a mean way , sometimes it helps to look the other way, "what you don't see wont hurt you kind of thing" I know you will still feel upset when you see the soda disappearing but at least maybe they wont feel your feelings? All I know is that When I was younger and I went somewhere were they had different deserts and junky kind of foods I would feel like I almost had to "sneak" some into my pocketbook so I can have some later and that's really an awful feeling , like a thief over food! And I battle with being 20-25 pounds over weight and its from the junk, that I know in my heart of hearts but its so hard to get away from. My husband on the other hand had all the
"junk" he wanted growing up and he has NO problem taking or leaving it, eats it on occasion only. So I guess we are both living proof of what has been said about NOT controlling the children's food .
Have a great Easter all, cant wait to do the eggs later!!
HeidiK
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] parent's issues food choices (LONG)



On Mar 25, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Sears Family wrote:

> -no sweet treats before a meal, particularly breakfast. "healthier
> food first - ie, oatmeal, toast, eggs, fruit, "

When my daughter has reached for the candy early in the morning I ask
her if she'd like me to make her something. If she doesn't that would
be okay but so far she's always said yes. For her, since she can have
as much as she wants the only thing special about candy is that it's
easier than making a bowl of cereal. But if I offer to make the cereal
then that's more appealing to her for breakfast.

So, without a rule, with the freedom to eat candy for breakfast she
chooses "healthier food first" just because it's more appealing to her
for breakfast.

> -often limit amount of dessert/sweet treats eaten (ie - one bowl of
> ice cream)- sometimes because I'm triggered, sometimes because I'd
> like to make the box of ice cream last longer, since the budget is not
> allowing lots of leeway

What you're saying with this is that your wants are more important than
their wants. And since you're bigger and stronger you get to have your
way.

What if you really really wanted a bowl of ice cream and nothing felt
like it would satisfy that craving and your husband said, no you can't,
we need to make it last?

If there's a special event that's it being saved for they'll understand
-- if it isn't commonly limited. But what better use for ice cream
could there be than to have happy kids :-)

> -If one food is requested over and over in one day - will often
> suggest another food, and point out that they've already had 4 bowls
> of oatmeal - perhaps their body might like something else? This is
> likely along the lines of open chioces - after I've said that, if they
> still want oatmeal - I am happy to make it. If it were to be ice
> cream - that would be a different story.

When my husband had a week long business trip I had spaghetti every
night for dinner. Why should someone have to be an adult to have the
freedom to do that?

What if you had to live your life asking your husband's permission and
help for everything you wanted? Maybe try that for a week! Every time
you start to do something independently -- even decisions about what to
buy at the store, what to make for dinner -- imagine having to ask your
husband if it's okay, or for him to do it for you. Imagine if his
priorities were different and he'd often say no because he didn't like
the choices you made.

> -requests for candy are mostly met with a no if we're out - we provide
> them with allowance each week, and they are entitled to purchase
> whatever they want with it - candy included. However, I know they
> often ask if what they're buying "is okay" - I often say yes. Once I
> have truly graduated to the other side, they won't ask anymore. That
> would be great.

What's your favorite food? What if the only way you could get out into
the world and out to where your favorite food (or book or movie) was
was to go with him? And what if you were out with him and the thing you
really wanted was right there within reach and he said no?

If we as adults had to live our lives as kids, being dependent on
someone, asking permission for each thing we wanted, we'd go nuts!
(And, hey, it might happen! And it might be our kids that we're saying
"No, your needs and wants aren't what I want to do for you. You can
take what I think you need," who are taking care of us!) *Life* and
society so severely restrict kids' freedom to get what they want for
themselves. We can add to that and be additional controllers in their
lives. Or we can be their partners and recognize that they don't have
the freedoms that we do and compassionately help them get what they
want.

The less needy they are, the less they'll need. If they know that 75%
of their requests will be turned down, they have to ask for a lot more
to get a better chance of getting the things they want.

> -pop is definitely limited to parties/babysitters in our house, and
> the times my dh has one. He likes it, so there is often pop stored in
> the cold cellar for those occasions. Any requests by the kids to have
> pop in between is met with a no. All the time. Pop is a big trigger
> for me. I can't seem to get over that coins disintegrate in it, the
> total lack of nutrition in it, and the large amount of
> calories/artificial sweeteners. It will probably be the last thing
> I'll let go of.

And what you're doing by making pop for special occasions is making it
something special to be greatly desired. Is that what you want? I've
got 2 cases of Coke sitting in the closet for anyone to take. It's rare
when anyone other than me takes one.

By limiting it you're creating a desire for it.

Joyce



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

We've had an open kitchen policy for years. Even before I heard of
unschooling, I've always made the kitchen available to my kids. Heck,
I don't want to always be fixing food that they're capable of doing,
so I've let them have a lot of freedom in there, always. Though I have
in the past made them "at least taste everything on your plate".

And, my 10 year old is pretty chunky. I'd say 30 lbs overweight. And,
she sneaks foods sometimes. Sometimes getting this "jumpy guilty
busted" look on her face, for eating something that was meant to be
eaten. As if she was sneaking it when she didn't need to be sneaky.
Also, hoarding food. She'll have a stash of things like soda crackers
in a drawer in her bedroom. Any candy she buys, she eats it right
away. In fact, we recently went through a spate of her stealing money
from her sibs, in order to go buy sweets. And then lying about where
the money came from.

Right now, she is craving sugar, and last night made
several "helpings" of sugar water. The Tang that I bought her at the
beginning of the month (a big Costco sized tub) is gone, but she likes
sweet drinks, and so makes sugar water for herself. I don't bug her
about it.

My 12 yob isn't gaining weight, and he lives with the same open policy
concerning food. He just stops when he is full. I've never known him
to sneak or steal. He eats a lot of sweets, but I think it's more
about his full sensor.

What is the difference? Honestly, I NEVER NEVER NEVER say anything
about her weight. EVER. And it's only a rare occasion when I mention
the seconds or the snacking, and usually in the context of "So and so
hasn't eaten yet." or "I'll need that for a recipe I'm trying out" It
is never in the context of "haven't you had enough, already?"

so, in our case, no food rules haven't helped her (yet?) to establish
internal controls. I'm watching and waiting.

blessings, HeidiC

> When I was younger and I went somewhere were they had different
>deserts and junky kind of foods I would feel like I almost had
>to "sneak" some into my pocketbook so I can have some later and
>that's really an awful feeling , like a thief over food!

> HeidiK

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2005 1:54:08 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

-=-We've had an open kitchen policy for years. -=-


How old was she before you did?

-=-Any candy she buys, she eats it right
away. In fact, we recently went through a spate of her stealing money
from her sibs, in order to go buy sweets. And then lying about where
the money came from.=-

Could she have just asked you to get some candy, or asked you for money?

-=-What is the difference?=

Do you have some chubby relatives/ancestors and some skinny ones? Some
differences are just nothing but genetics. My husband was a fat baby and has
both very skinny relatives and fat ones, so I didn't know what to expect
genetically with our kids. Still don't know how they'll be as adults.

-=-so, in our case, no food rules haven't helped her (yet?) to establish
internal controls.-=-

Maybe she needs more fruit. Will she drink juice, or eat toast and jam or
other sweet things? Could you find a recipe for candy made with nuts and
honey, maybe?

But would "internal controls" look like limits to you? Maybe you're looking
for something other than her natural food needs.

Keith (dh) eats lots of salty food, but takes pride in not salting his food.
<G> He'll eat chips and microwave popcorn, though. Kirby likes milk a
LOT. He drinks a lot, eats cereal with milk, adds milk to hot cereal. If I
were an anti-milk mom, I could think that Kirby drinks too much milk, that
freedom hasn't helped him to self-regulate on milk consumption. What that would
mean is he drinks more milk than I would give him if I were doling it out.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/26/2005 1:54:08 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> -=-We've had an open kitchen policy for years. -=-
>
>
> How old was she before you did?

oh, about 7-8. But my "controls" were more about "eat what's on your
plate" or "taste everything" rather than disallowing them sweets.
And, my boy was 9-10 when Open Kitchen was begun.


> -=-Any candy she buys, she eats it right
> away. In fact, we recently went through a spate of her stealing
money
> from her sibs, in order to go buy sweets. And then lying about
where
> the money came from.=-
>
> Could she have just asked you to get some candy, or asked you for
money?

Absolutely. Well, chances are I wouldn't have had actual MONEY. L
She could have asked me, or she could have had the chocolate in the
cupboard or fixed a favorite sweet treat around here: peanuts,
raisins, and chocolate chips in a cup.


> -=-What is the difference?=
>
> Do you have some chubby relatives/ancestors and some skinny ones?
Some
> differences are just nothing but genetics. My husband was a fat
baby and has
> both very skinny relatives and fat ones, so I didn't know what to
expect
> genetically with our kids. Still don't know how they'll be as
adults.

My husband's brother has one daughter who was quite chubby at age 10,
and less active than my Katie. She's grown into a fleshy high school
graduate. I'm overweight, too (but that's from overeating and under-
moving, rather than genetics, as my sister is lean and my bro has
maybe 10 lbs extra) None of us was a heavy kid. Just the one cousin.

>
> -=-so, in our case, no food rules haven't helped her (yet?) to
establish
> internal controls.-=-
>
> Maybe she needs more fruit. Will she drink juice, or eat toast
and jam or
> other sweet things? Could you find a recipe for candy made with
nuts and
> honey, maybe?

One of her favorites is ants on a log with raisins AND chocolate
chips! Hm, toast and jam. That's a good idea.

> But would "internal controls" look like limits to you? Maybe
you're looking
> for something other than her natural food needs.

I think what I'd like to see is an ability in her to know when her
tummy is full, and stop eating. It isn't as important to me that she
hold back on sweets. I know skinny people who eat lots of sugary
stuff, and I really do think it is more about consistently stopping
when full, whatever the foods are.

What that would
> mean is he drinks more milk than I would give him if I were doling
it out.

I must say, if I were doling out the food, I would probably give
smaller portions or limit seconds or snacks. But I simply refuse to
do that. Even if I weren't in unschooling mode, controlling a kid's
food or nagging about eating habits...well, I think it's a sure way
to push a kid into one eating disorder or another.

blessings, HeidiC

> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robin Clevenger

--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
> What is the difference? Honestly, I NEVER NEVER NEVER say anything
> about her weight. EVER.

Some of it just might be innate. We've had a dog for 12 years and we
could always just leave food out and he would eat until he was full
and leave the rest. Then we got another dog, and she would eat until
she was stuffed and then some. She'd eat herself sick. She'd eat
green apples that had fallen to the ground until she threw up. She
just didn't seem to have the built-in food shut-offs that other dogs
I've known have had. She died at 9 from a stroke, she was very
overweight. Our other dog is still lean and going strong at 12.

I know humans aren't dogs, but I do think that in a similar fashion,
some people's built-in food "shut off" switch might not operate as
well as other people's.

>And it's only a rare occasion when I mention
> the seconds or the snacking, and usually in the context of "So and
so
> hasn't eaten yet." or "I'll need that for a recipe I'm trying out"
It
> is never in the context of "haven't you had enough, already?"

In general, do you talk about what healthy eating looks and feels
like? Do you model healthy eating yourself? You don't have to make
direct comments about *her* eating to give her information about how
to make healthy food choices.

My daughter recently got a bag of
pretzels, which is one of her favorite foods, and she just kept
eating them. After awhile, she said her stomach hurt. She had eaten
a *lot* of pretzels. So I just non-judgementally said "Yes,
sometimes when we eat too much, we get a feeling in our body that
doesn't feel right. Like your tummy might feel too full, or you
might feel sort of sick. Maybe you had too many pretzels?" The next
time she got pretzels, I noticed she put them away after awhile.
Maybe your daughter is just missing her fullness cues. One thing
that helps some people is just to keep bottles full of nice cold
water around. When you drink some water before eating or with food,
you get to the full point a bit quicker. Each of my kids has a
special water cup with a straw, and I make sure they always have
fresh water all day available to them (of course, they can also get
juice or milk or whatever out of the fridge to, but I've noticed
that they tend to drink more water when it is readily available.)

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

birthinlove

Hello,
Heidi wrote: She'll have a stash of things like soda crackers
in a drawer in her bedroom. Any candy she buys, she eats it right
away. In fact, we recently went through a spate of her stealing money
from her sibs, in order to go buy sweets. And then lying about where
the money came from.

Right now, she is craving sugar, and last night made
several "helpings" of sugar water. The Tang that I bought her at the
beginning of the month (a big Costco sized tub) is gone, but she likes
sweet drinks, and so makes sugar water for herself. I don't bug her
about it."

I wonder if her sugar cravings are emotional?? Kids age 9-10 can be
really emotional, can't they? Is she feeling insecure for any
reason? The things she is craving all seem to be quick-carb fixes.
Or, perhaps these aren't cravings at all. Maybe labelling her
behavior as cravings makes it difficult to identify the need. I don't
know - still quite new myself at this!!!! (ha-as all my other posts
suggest!)

MIchele

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2005 8:47:54 PM Central Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

I think what I'd like to see is an ability in her to know when her
tummy is full, and stop eating


~~~

I have recently been studying portion sizes, in an attempt to regulate my
food intake.

We Americans don't know much about proper portion sizes, apparently. What
does 1/2 a cup look like? Or 1 oz of cheese, or 3 oz of meat. Restaurants
serve too much food, and the plates we use are too big! I actually bought a
food scale, and use it, and now I have a pretty good idea of how much is what.

When I started reducing my portions (at restaurants I eat half and take the
rest home for later), I thought it would be hard to stop eating because I
wouldn't feel full. I did feel full! Part of it was the healthy food I am
eating. You can eat more volume of better foods if you choose right.

I had a boss who was known to run up a local mountain and back every day,
for exercise. He was really fit--over 40 at the time, ran marathons and used a
stand-up desk at work. We were at a work-related convention together, and
there was a hotel-type buffet dinner there for the attendees. Jim walked away
from the buffet table with a very small slice of meat, and his plate
completely heaped over with green beans. Green beans were the only green vegetable
on the buffet, besides cold salad. I remember seeing his plate and making
the connection about volume of high calorie food vs volume of low calorie food.
I'm sure his reasoning was he could eat so much MORE food, if he ate the
right things. A feeling of fullness was surely one of his goals, cuz it was a
huge pile of green beans.

There's a book about it, I saw recently. Volumetrics. I haven't read it,
yet, but the green bean mountain had to be part of it.

Maybe you're daughter needs some information about portions to help her
figure out what makes her feel full, etc. It takes a while to get that signal
from the brain. I don't usually cook what I eat for others, except maybe at
supper. So I only cook one serving of whatever it is, or make a bunch and
freeze it in individual servings. I can't over-eat, because there isn't anymore!
I'm 11 pounds down so far. :)


Here are a couple of fun quizzes about portions.
_http://users.smartlite.it/diva/quizzes/portion.asp_
(http://users.smartlite.it/diva/quizzes/portion.asp)
_http://hin.nhlbi.nih.gov/portion/_ (http://hin.nhlbi.nih.gov/portion/)

I'm going to get that Volumetrics book soon.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/26/2005 9:25:52 PM Central Standard Time,
tri_mom@... writes:

I know humans aren't dogs, but I do think that in a similar fashion,
some people's built-in food "shut off" switch might not operate as
well as other people's.



~~~
But it can be "fixed". It can be adapted. Other choices can be made.

I think a dog who eats a lot can be fixed, too. I've been watching the Dog
Whisperer on National Geographic channel lately. I'm sure he could fix a dog
like that! I think a dog eating like that is just another form of neuroses,
and I've seen him adjust neuroses that were ingrained in dogs for *years*.

Karen



www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the_clevengers

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> I had a boss who was known to run up a local mountain and back
every day,
> for exercise. He was really fit--over 40 at the time, ran
marathons and used a
> stand-up desk at work. We were at a work-related convention
together, and
> there was a hotel-type buffet dinner there for the attendees.
Jim walked away
> from the buffet table with a very small slice of meat, and his
plate
> completely heaped over with green beans.

I think it's The Zone book that suggests 1/3 protein and 2/3
vegetables on a plate. I'm not a follower of any "plan", but that's
generally how I tend to eat.

> Green beans were the only green vegetable
> on the buffet, besides cold salad. I remember seeing his plate
and making
> the connection about volume of high calorie food vs volume of low
calorie food.
> I'm sure his reasoning was he could eat so much MORE food, if he
ate the
> right things. A feeling of fullness was surely one of his goals,
cuz it was a
> huge pile of green beans.


I wonder if that is what he was aiming for or not. I know that my
body just feels so much better when I eat healthily, that I no
longer have much urge to put too much stuff in it that is unhealthy.
If I go to a buffet restaurant, I'll load up on salad and fruit and
some lean meat because that's what feels good to me. And I'll
usually have something sweet as well because I like it. Being full
or not full isn't something I ever really think about. I was just
realizing the other day that I no longer look to my stomach for cues
about eating. When I feel hungry, it's like a whole-body feeling,
like all of my cells are calling out for food. Since I eat a lot of
small meals throughout the day, my stomach rarely has either
a "full" or an "empty" feeling, and it's never my goal for it to
feel "full". I wonder if people depend on their stomach for cues
about full or empty, if they are missing the picture of what their
body needs. Just some musings about this...

Blue Skies,
-Robin-

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/27/2005 5:07:05 AM Mountain Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:

-=-I started reducing my portions (at restaurants I eat half and take the
rest home for later)-=-


Keith takes his own lunch to work, so sometimes when I'm out at a restaurant
and feel guilty about the expense, I put half in a to-go right up front,
before I start eating, and take it home to Keith. And I have never thought
"GOSH, I'm hungry, better get into that to-go box."

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
Just had to pop in and say hi when I say your screen name - I love it!

Vesna

What a fabulous tip! I will surely try that. Using the to-go box up
front can have many advantages. Thanks!

Vesna

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/27/2005 5:07:05 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> tuckervill2@a... writes:
>
> -=-I started reducing my portions (at restaurants I eat half and
take the
> rest home for later)-=-
>
>
> Keith takes his own lunch to work, so sometimes when I'm out at a
restaurant
> and feel guilty about the expense, I put half in a to-go right up
front,
> before I start eating, and take it home to Keith. And I have never
thought
> "GOSH, I'm hungry, better get into that to-go box."
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nisha

There was something I read not too long ago, that was about the trend
in young girls, (around 7 or 8) to already think they were fat or
needed to be on a diet. Skinny and fake looking big boobs are promoted
in ALOT of places. On tv, barbies, some video games, movies,
commercials, bill boards. (I"m not saying they should be banned or
anything, but I think we need to be aware of those things having some
influence on kids) And I think our kids also pick up on our attitudes
about food, like they do on just about everything else.
I know I usually knew how my mom felt about things whether she said a
word or not. ANd some of her friends may have told her she isn't
skinny enough, or she shouldn't eat certain things, it's not like we
are ever the ONLY influence on our kids.
Lots of people really believe that certain foods are always really bad
for you, even in moderation. ANd they pass that on to their kids, and
they, in turn, pass that on as well.
We all know those people, I've been one before. Split a piece of
cheesecake with a couple of other friends at the end of a meal in a
resturant and we'd talk about how we shouldn't be eating it. One
piece, split 3 or 4 ways and we were "being bad" -what a crock.
Nisha



--- In [email protected], "bunsofaluminum"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:
And, my 10 year old is pretty chunky. I'd say 30 lbs overweight.
And, she sneaks foods sometimes. Sometimes getting this "jumpy
guilty busted" look on her face, for eating something that was meant
to be eaten. As if she was sneaking it when she didn't need to be
sneaky. Also, hoarding food. ........
Honestly, I NEVER NEVER NEVER say anything about her weight. EVER.
And it's only a rare occasion when I mention the seconds or the
snacking, and usually in the context of "So and so hasn't eaten yet."
or "I'll need that for a recipe I'm trying out" It is never in the
context of "haven't you had enough, already?"
> blessings, HeidiC

Nisha

--- In [email protected], "birthinlove"
<brewstersears@s...> wrote:
I wonder if her sugar cravings are emotional?? Kids age 9-10 can be
> really emotional, can't they? > MIchele

Maybe hormonal as well? I know I crave sugar and protein at certain
times that are definitely hormone related. Has she hit puberty yet?
Do you think she might be about to do so?
Nisha

Mark and Amanda Philip

<< Split a piece of cheesecake with a couple of other friends at the end of a meal in a resturant and we'd talk about how we shouldn't be eating it. One piece, split 3 or 4 ways and we were "being bad" -what a crock. >>

I agree!!! Last summer my washing machine broke, and I spent a lot of time at my friend's house doing laundry. We would literally split a WHOLE Sara Lee cheesecake between the two of us on a regular basis. It was great!

It's so scary to hear how young girls think about themselves ... but I must admit I am guilty of thinking badly of myself and my body. I don't feel guilty about eating certain foods (my motto: you only live once, you might as well eat what you want) but I've always had a skewed perception of the way I look. I am not overweight, but since having my dd, I am about fifteen pounds heavier. This has taken me a long time to come to terms with, if I even have.

I worry that my dd (almost three years old) will grow up and fall into the traps that are set for girls (perfect figures, perfect skin, size 0 or bust). When I was growing up there wasn't even a size 0 ... I can't believe that it acutally exists now!! I don't control the food she eats by preventing her from eating what I buy (hope that makes sense) I just don't buy a lot of things that aren't nutritious. We model good food habits, and she has followed on her own. She loves fruits and veggies, whole grain foods ... she's a great eater, and we encourage her by offering healthy food choices.

Don't get me wrong, she does eat ice cream, chocolate, cookies, etc. but in moderation, just as we do (well, aside from my summer of cheesecake!!). I don't really see how eating unlimited amounts of sugar can be helpful to anyone, young or old.

Amanda
* who is new to this list, and still lurking *

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< When I was growing up there wasn't even a size 0 ... I can't believe
that it acutally exists now!!>>>>

As a costume designer and seamstress I can tell you that people on average
are bigger and taller now compared to earlier in history. Vintage garments
from as soon as the 1930's and certainly going back to Edwardian times show
very small garments, even allowing for corsetry. Another area where size is
distinctive is in suits of armor that are often astonishingly small.

I had a number of vintage paper patterns and some that were my mother's when
she was young. The measurements show that the "average" sizes of 10 or 12
were considerably smaller. Paper patterns will have smaller measurements for
the same sizes than purchased readymade garments, but they were still
smaller back in the day. There seem to be two different systems at work at
the same time.

The fashion industry periodically changes the measurements of what
constitutes the specific sizes, allowing modern women to feel better about
being say size 10, when half a century ago they would have been called a
size 14 or more. However there are still small women to be catered to, hence
size 0. Sarah Jessica Parker is known as a size 1, and she is also petite in
height.

There are also different ways of labeling sizes internationally. You are
probably familiar with European shoe sizes. I thought my feet had grown
suddenly before I learnt that Australian shoes are numbered differently from
US despite being similar numbers (ie unlike European).

Robyn L. Coburn




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In a message dated 3/30/05 11:58:44 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< Vintage garments
from as soon as the 1930's and certainly going back to Edwardian times show
very small garments, even allowing for corsetry. Another area where size is
distinctive is in suits of armor that are often astonishingly small. >>

What's left is what didn't fit.
Same as thrift stores. The really nice stuff is in very small sizes. The
bigger stuff gets worn out and used up.

Pieces of armor that DID fit people was being used centuries after it was
new. It's the grown-out-of parade armor that's mostly in museums. There's
also some BIG stuff in museums. Henry VIII's jousting armor. NOT small. Some
German suits that are in museums because of gold chasing on the metal (too good
to wear out in the field).

-=-However there are still small women to be catered to, hence
size 0. Sarah Jessica Parker is known as a size 1-=-

Holly has worn some thrift store 0 and 1 sizes. She's just moved past that
lately. She's tall for her waist size (or has long legs) so the girls' sizes
are high-water on her, and the womens' pants and skirts are a better fit.

Sandra

Sandra

Rue Kream

>> When I was growing up there wasn't even a size 0 ... I can't believe
that it acutally exists now!!

**On behalf of naturally thin girls, I'd just like to say that some of us
*need* that size 0, and children can be made to feel badly about themselves
for being 'too skinny' just as easily as they can be made to feel badly for
being 'too fat'. ~Rue

Aimee

<<Another area where
size is
distinctive is in suits of armor that are often
astonishingly small.>>

We went to the Art Institute here in Chicago last
week, and saw the armor collection that they have, and
the first comment my son made about them is how small
the feet were. Tiny.

My ten year old son would be able to fit in the armor
itself, maybe, but his size 9s would *not* fit in
those tiny shoe like covers, lol. Amazing.

~Aimee

Dawn Adams

> Pieces of armor that DID fit people was being used centuries after it was
> new. It's the grown-out-of parade armor that's mostly in museums.
There's
> also some BIG stuff in museums. Henry VIII's jousting armor. NOT small.
Some
> German suits that are in museums because of gold chasing on the metal (too
good
> to wear out in the field).
>>>>>>>>

Michael Crichton wrote a little something on that in...oh...the time travel
book. His take was that the smaller armour may have been simply display
pieces that were made a lttle smaller then true armour. No sense in wasting
to much metal for something not intended to be worn?

He's a neat author, seems curious about everything.

Dawn (in NS)



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In a message dated 3/31/05 8:46:24 AM, aimeel73@... writes:

<< My ten year old son would be able to fit in the armor
itself, maybe, but his size 9s would *not* fit in
those tiny shoe like covers, lol. Amazing.
>>

Much of the museum armor I've seen (and especially in England) WAS made for
kids. For young princes and dukes and such, to wear on state occasions or
special occasions, or as a gift. Armorers then and now would practice (or show
off) on smaller stuff and give it to young kids. Not only do they REALLY
appreciate it, but the parents do too. And in a feudal society, sucking up is a
part of everyday life.

Just a year ago we 'returned' a real steel helm with a hinged fact plate that
had been given to Kirby when he was little. Though I let him try it on and
he knew it was his, I kept it back for a couple of reasons. It was dangerous,
just the weight of it, for playing. And the armorer had made it for his
daughter. When it was too small for her, the mom gave it to Kirby. They were
divorced by then, and I figured she was dumping things the dad had owned/made.

So I saved it, and when the daughter was 23 or so and had graduated from
college and I figured she was in a position to take care of it herself, I gave it
back to her. She was thrilled to have it. But it will never be evidence that
anyone that small was involved in any combat, not even SCA combat.

I've seen some VERY elaborate costumes made for young children (and my kids
have worn some), partly because the kids are just so darn CUTE, and partly
because a similar costume in adult size could cost hundreds of dollars in material
and hundreds of hours of labor, but to do something similar with scrap
materials and short bits of blackwork embroidery (rather than yards) for a baby or
toddler is fun and easy. And the kids don't wear them out, because they're
hardly mobile and they outgrow them in just half a year (MAYBE having worn them
two or three times).

Sandra

Mark and Amanda Philip

<< On behalf of naturally thin girls, I'd just like to say that some of us
*need* that size 0, and children can be made to feel badly about themselves
for being 'too skinny' >>

My sister is naturally very thin, and she always felt self-conscious about
it. She would hear strangers say, "Now *that's* thin," when she walked by.
It affected her greatly growing up, and still does now that she's an adult.

My point is that when we were kids/teens (I'm talking '80's and '90's) there
wasn't a size 0, it was something else ... maybe size 2 or 4. Having a size
numbered "0" makes me feel like we are putting more pressure on girls to be
thin, outside of those girls who are genetically or naturally thin. It
feels to me like we're telling them if your dress size has an actual number,
you're too fat.

We should be promoting to our girls that it's not the dress size that
matters, but how wonderful you look in your clothes.

Just my thoughts ...

x Amanda x

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 31, 2005, at 11:39 AM, Dawn Adams wrote:

> Michael Crichton wrote a little something on that in...oh...the time
> travel
> book.

Timeline.

*Much* better than the movie.

Very good on tape.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/31/05 9:33:44 AM, Wishbone@... writes:

<< Michael Crichton wrote a little something on that in...oh...the time travel

book. His take was that the smaller armour may have been simply display

pieces that were made a lttle smaller then true armour. No sense in wasting

to much metal for something not intended to be worn? >>

Some of the suits have the name of who it was made for, and the detail that
it was for his knighting (we've been at 18 or 21, most likely, depending what
country, if his father was of rank), and not many men will stay their 18-yr-old
size for life. Or sometimes a prince, 15 years old, made for the coronation
of his father (and so on like that). Worn once, like a wedding dress or
Christening gown, and saved by proud relatives.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

I bow happily to other's greater knowledge about armor. :)

However I stand by my statements about the relative sizes of both paper
patterns and the numbering systems of the "average" sizes of ready-to-wear.
The definition of the average size used to be smaller. Maybe it is a step
forward that what is considered average is larger today.

When I talk about vintage, I'm talking about paper patterns and preserved
garments from pre- WWII, and from the 1960's (in ref. to my Mum). If Holly
is finding those items in the thrift stores in Albuquerque, they may be
worth a lot more than she is paying for them if in good condition,
especially if designer. There are a lot of designer resale stores here in
Los Angeles where the prices are hardly less than new.

One thing that is interesting is to look at vintage photos of women in
shoes. It is completely evident that often the women are cramming their poor
plump feet into small shoes.

Studying the history of fashion can be fascinating.

<<<<We should be promoting to our girls that it's not the dress size that
matters, but how wonderful you look in your clothes.>>>>>>

I wonder if this is as much of an issue with Unschoolers as it might be with
schooled children who deal with group mentality and much more pronounced
peer pressure daily. I would be interested in hearing about older kids.

Jayn at 5.5 has her own sense of style. She has always been very clear about
her preferences. As an infant in the clothing stores I would hold up a
couple of garments and buy the one she reached for or seemed responsive to.
Now she finds pictures in books and asks me to make the dresses, with
variations. She chooses fabrics at the store. She is very particular about
her shoes. She examines clothes in the store carefully before deciding yes
or no, or she instantly loves something. Recently she has begun insisting on
trying on at the store before buying.

As for her body image, she is proud of being strong and tall. She is pleased
when she can do physical stuff. She also loves playing with makeup and has a
larger selection of lipsticks than I do. However she usually forgets to wear
any.

She has not allowed me to brush her hair since last June. It is curly so is
now a combination of wads, fuzz balls and dreadlocks - a la Phyllis Diller.
She loves it.

Robyn L. Coburn

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In a message dated 3/31/05 12:09:41 PM, dezigna@... writes:

<< If Holly
is finding those items in the thrift stores in Albuquerque, they may be
worth a lot more than she is paying for them if in good condition,
especially if designer. >>

Just skirts and pants size 1 at Savers sometimes, and she wore a "Size 0"
pair (seems so goofy) for a bit. She' on to 3 and 5, and climbing.

She had a WONDERFUL pair of kneehigh boots she wore once for a dress-up
situation, we paid $7 maybe. They were made in Brazil, but the inside writing was
all Japanese, and they were unlike Brazilian stuff sold here. They didn't fit
her long, but she had LITTLE feet (it was a couple of years back) but those
were clearly women's boots.

-=-One thing that is interesting is to look at vintage photos of women in
shoes. It is completely evident that often the women are cramming their poor
plump feet into small shoes.-=-

I had one grandmother who crammed and one who didn't.
The one who wore size 7 probably should've worn 9, judging by my being a lot
like her physically, and remembering what her poor toes looked like. Chinese
footbinding, just about, toes curled under on the sides, and big toe bent in.
And she had corns and callouses and coudln't walk very far or very fast.
Really bad idea, and now so long ago.

Sandra

Sandra

Mary

From: "Mark and Amanda Philip" <thephilips@...>

<< My point is that when we were kids/teens (I'm talking '80's and '90's)
there
wasn't a size 0, it was something else ... maybe size 2 or 4. Having a size
numbered "0" makes me feel like we are putting more pressure on girls to be
thin, outside of those girls who are genetically or naturally thin. It
feels to me like we're telling them if your dress size has an actual number,
you're too fat.>>



My teen years were in the 70's and I remember a size 1. Don't remember a
zero but I know there was a time, (short) that I did wear size 1. They were
certainly hard to find but they were there. Maybe 0's were there too just
not so abundant.

I do know that size varies so much from one brand to another. I could care
less but I see that it matters to many people. My mom has a friend who
refuses to wear the size she really needs only because it's "not her size."
She doesn't understand how size varies. My oldest daughter, 19, finally
realizes that now. She sees her size not changing but wears 3's and 5's
depending. I can go anywhere from a size 8 to a 12. I think size is crap
really. I understand one has to have something to go by but so many girls
and women really depend on a certain number meaning something. I would like
to think wisdom of that comes with age but I know many women who still
squeeze feet into too small shoes because they don't want to wear anything
larger than a 7.

Mary B

smudj5

>
> She has not allowed me to brush her hair since last June. It is
curly so is
> now a combination of wads, fuzz balls and dreadlocks - a la
Phyllis Diller.
> She loves it.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>


OOOOOOH- It made my day to see this:) My 7dd does not "do" the hair
brush thing. People have given me a zillion suggestions to "cure"
her- from different brushes and conditioners to playing beauty
parlor to the punishment of cutting it short (she loves it long). It
has been a challenge (for me) to let it go, but I really try to say
nothing. Sporadically, she has allowed me to help her get the knots
out- but mostly her hair is a wavy clump of wads, fuzz balls and
dreadlocks too!
We just inherited a large bunch of hand me down clothes and
accesories- which my daughter proclaimed she now has a mall (like in
Princess Diaries) and she feels like a fashion goddess! Yesterday,
she was outside playing in a beach sarong,sunglasses,down vest, a
long fuzzy sparkle scarf, and leopard slippers with ankles hanging
off the back, singing disney princess songs and feeling on top of
the world! I should have taken a picture.

Susan (NJ lurker who is trying a raw diet and maintaining that the
kids can still make their own choices- including Doritoes and ice
cream)

Ahna

Oh! This is so wonderful! My daughter (age 13, unschooled since Feb 14) has a
piece of hair growing down the front of her face and she loves to play with it. some
4 months ago she cut this slice of hair up to its roots and I suspect it was a kind
mutiliation in response to her horrible experience in school. Anyway, I revel in
seeing this wad of hair growing out and her enjoyment in playing with it. I respond to
Robyn's email about her daughter's hair because it reminds me of my daughter's
return to claim of her own body. Her hair is no longer something that she has to
comb or "make tidy" becauuse she is going to school, but something that
BELONGS TO HER and she can braid, it, let it get knottyt or whatever! It is trully
liberating for all of us to go this route! Ahna

--- In [email protected], "smudj5" <smj8@c...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > She has not allowed me to brush her hair since last June. It is
> curly so is
> > now a combination of wads, fuzz balls and dreadlocks - a la
> Phyllis Diller.
> > She loves it.
> >
> > Robyn L. Coburn
> >
> >
>
>
> OOOOOOH- It made my day to see this:) My 7dd does not "do" the hair
> brush thing. People have given me a zillion suggestions to "cure"
> her- from different brushes and conditioners to playing beauty
> parlor to the punishment of cutting it short (she loves it long). It
> has been a challenge (for me) to let it go, but I really try to say
> nothing. Sporadically, she has allowed me to help her get the knots
> out- but mostly her hair is a wavy clump of wads, fuzz balls and
> dreadlocks too!
> We just inherited a large bunch of hand me down clothes and
> accesories- which my daughter proclaimed she now has a mall (like in
> Princess Diaries) and she feels like a fashion goddess! Yesterday,
> she was outside playing in a beach sarong,sunglasses,down vest, a
> long fuzzy sparkle scarf, and leopard slippers with ankles hanging
> off the back, singing disney princess songs and feeling on top of
> the world! I should have taken a picture.
>
> Susan (NJ lurker who is trying a raw diet and maintaining that the
> kids can still make their own choices- including Doritoes and ice
> cream)