Re: Dyslexia - relating to unschooling
Joni Zander
> Dyslexia doesn't matter in an unschooling environment. If a childMy experience is that if your kids are hanging out with schooled kids,
> learns to
> read in his own way in his own time, (snip) it will happen whether
> they have symptoms
> of dyslexis or not.
they will feel SOME pressure to be "at level" with whatever the
schooled kids are doing SOME of the time.
My almost 9 year old is really not ready to read yet - she flips and
confuses many letters and has a hard time understanding what sounds a
lot of the letters make. Reading and her inability to read (yet) comes
up a lot with other people. People expect an almost 9 yo to be able to
read.
So, she looks for learning to read programs at the library. I help her
as much as I can, but I don't like the tools we've found.
I would love to have better tools to help her with this - so I'm
reading the Gift of Dyslexia. I don't think this is quite the right
fit, but haven't found anything better.
She WANTS to learn to read. I WANT to help her with that. Everything
I've found to help her is awful. I know there must be some way I can
help her more organically, but I don't know how.
I am an unschooler who wants to help her daughter do something she has
a lot of desire to do. I reassure her that it will come - it doesn't
have to be forced and it doesn't have to happen now. But she is very
driven to read. I'm perfectly comfortable with waiting until it comes
more naturally for her - she is not. I either need to find something
that will help her learn to read, or something to help her understand
that she doesn't need to force it.
So I think that dyslexia does matter in an unschooling environment
sometimes. And I think it is within the scope of this list to provide
ideas for those who want to help their kids learn something that the
kid is wanting to learn. The stuff out there is not great - there must
be something better. Maybe someone here can provide the better for
those of us struggling with this.
> Unschooling parents really don't need to worry about dyslexia orI don't know that I agree - for the simple reason that we don't live in
> "ADHD."
> Honestly, they can be blind and ignore those topics if they want to
> and the
> kids will STILL learn in their own way, which is the only way anyone
> can
> learn. And if the moms DO ignore those topics and yet still provide a
> safe,
> happy, rich unschooling environment, and the children grow up
> unlabelled and
> unashamed, they will be ahead of the kids in school who were called
> disabled and
> diseased and slow and difficult.
a bubble.
Reading (and dd's inability to read) seems to come up a lot with her
and her friends. I don't know why that is.
My daughter wants to be in Brownies - they expect that all the girls
can read. The leaders know my philosophy and respect it and provide
work arounds for her when needed. But even though the leaders are not
making it a big deal, and try not to let it stand out - my daughter is
very forward about saying she can't read. Then she can get funny looks
from the other kids - even though they don't make a big deal out of it.
Then there's grandma who was a reading specialist before she
retired.....
Joni Zander
FotoCEO@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/23/2005 9:44:54 AM Mountain Standard Time,
fotoceo@... writes:
Reading and her inability to read (yet) comes
up a lot with other people. People expect an almost 9 yo to be able to
read.
-----------
They expect them to read or to have the decency to hide and lie if they
can't.
Girls who' can't read yet (and LOTS of kids in school can't read fluently
even by midschool/Jr. High, and a fair number still can't read fluently by high
school) simply won't join Brownies or Girl Scouts. They will say "That club
is stupid" rather than admit they can't read.
-=-I would love to have better tools to help her with this - so I'm
reading the Gift of Dyslexia. I don't think this is quite the right
fit, but haven't found anything better.-=-
I could be wrong, but I don't think that book will help you teach her to
read. I think it will do what people here have been trying to do, which is say
that it's NOT a "disability," it's normal for a large portion of humans in
general.
No one can learn to read any other person's way but her own.
No one can learn to read before she's ready, herself, to figure it out.
Yes people can help, but only if your helping coincides with the other
person's readiness will it seem that you "taught them," and in every case, what
happened was they figured it out.
-=-She WANTS to learn to read. I WANT to help her with that. Everything
I've found to help her is awful. I know there must be some way I can
help her more organically, but I don't know how.=-
Holly was that way at that age. At ten she still wasn't reading. It wasn't
easy, but it didn't help to keep trying. The second she got it, there it
was. At 11 she read Judy Blume. At 12 she read Stephen King.
When Holly started reading, she had a huge vocabulary, so her beginning
words weren't limited to the words four or five year olds know. She was figuring
out four and five syllable words right off the bat. She went from 0 to 60,
as it were, bypassing years of practice sitting in the driver's seat,
practice reciting lists of three-letter words, etc.
Her experience in girl scouts is recounted here:
_http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd_ (http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd)
She quit, but not because she couldn't read. She quit because the leaders
weren't very smart (or at least not very energetic or interested in finding
answers to her questions) and the other girls weren't very nice or interesting.
I was sad at the time but in retrospect I think it was a good call. That
particular troop wasn't into learning, they were into checking the "I went to
girl scouts" box off their drab checklist. It was dismaying, but there it
was. I tried to find her another troop but the nearest was very school-based
and didn't call us back.
-=- I'm perfectly comfortable with waiting until it comes
more naturally for her - she is not. I either need to find something
that will help her learn to read, or something to help her understand
that she doesn't need to force it.
-=-
Isn't unschooling itself the thing to help her understand that she can't
force it even if she would like to?
-=-So I think that dyslexia does matter in an unschooling environment
sometimes. And I think it is within the scope of this list to provide
ideas for those who want to help their kids learn something that the
kid is wanting to learn.-=-
The list would do well to help the parents learn that dyslexia is a normal
condition of VERY many people, and it's not a disease. It's better for
parents to learn how kids grow into their abilities in different ways than for
parents to want ideas to help their kids learn something the kid isn't ready to
learn yet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fotoceo@... writes:
Reading and her inability to read (yet) comes
up a lot with other people. People expect an almost 9 yo to be able to
read.
-----------
They expect them to read or to have the decency to hide and lie if they
can't.
Girls who' can't read yet (and LOTS of kids in school can't read fluently
even by midschool/Jr. High, and a fair number still can't read fluently by high
school) simply won't join Brownies or Girl Scouts. They will say "That club
is stupid" rather than admit they can't read.
-=-I would love to have better tools to help her with this - so I'm
reading the Gift of Dyslexia. I don't think this is quite the right
fit, but haven't found anything better.-=-
I could be wrong, but I don't think that book will help you teach her to
read. I think it will do what people here have been trying to do, which is say
that it's NOT a "disability," it's normal for a large portion of humans in
general.
No one can learn to read any other person's way but her own.
No one can learn to read before she's ready, herself, to figure it out.
Yes people can help, but only if your helping coincides with the other
person's readiness will it seem that you "taught them," and in every case, what
happened was they figured it out.
-=-She WANTS to learn to read. I WANT to help her with that. Everything
I've found to help her is awful. I know there must be some way I can
help her more organically, but I don't know how.=-
Holly was that way at that age. At ten she still wasn't reading. It wasn't
easy, but it didn't help to keep trying. The second she got it, there it
was. At 11 she read Judy Blume. At 12 she read Stephen King.
When Holly started reading, she had a huge vocabulary, so her beginning
words weren't limited to the words four or five year olds know. She was figuring
out four and five syllable words right off the bat. She went from 0 to 60,
as it were, bypassing years of practice sitting in the driver's seat,
practice reciting lists of three-letter words, etc.
Her experience in girl scouts is recounted here:
_http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd_ (http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd)
She quit, but not because she couldn't read. She quit because the leaders
weren't very smart (or at least not very energetic or interested in finding
answers to her questions) and the other girls weren't very nice or interesting.
I was sad at the time but in retrospect I think it was a good call. That
particular troop wasn't into learning, they were into checking the "I went to
girl scouts" box off their drab checklist. It was dismaying, but there it
was. I tried to find her another troop but the nearest was very school-based
and didn't call us back.
-=- I'm perfectly comfortable with waiting until it comes
more naturally for her - she is not. I either need to find something
that will help her learn to read, or something to help her understand
that she doesn't need to force it.
-=-
Isn't unschooling itself the thing to help her understand that she can't
force it even if she would like to?
-=-So I think that dyslexia does matter in an unschooling environment
sometimes. And I think it is within the scope of this list to provide
ideas for those who want to help their kids learn something that the
kid is wanting to learn.-=-
The list would do well to help the parents learn that dyslexia is a normal
condition of VERY many people, and it's not a disease. It's better for
parents to learn how kids grow into their abilities in different ways than for
parents to want ideas to help their kids learn something the kid isn't ready to
learn yet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Joni Zander
<fotoceo@c...> wrote:
_Montessori Read & Write_ by Lynne Lawrence. It might have some
different kinds of activities your daughter would like.
Overall, I have tons of problems with the book, but there might be
bits that are good!
My four year old son is interested in writing letters, but seems to
get upset at making mistakes. When dd got a Magna-Doodle, which can
be erased very quickly, ds was suddenly much more interested in
writing and okay with making mistakes. In the same vein, there are
lots of activities in this book that involve physical manipulation of
sandpaper letters, wooden letters, etc. Again, I'm guessing this is
different than other learning to read programs, but maybe not.
Hmm, I may try one of the ideas I just saw in the book. Write action
words on index cards and act out whatever the kids pull out of the
pile. Sounds like fun on a rainy day, regardless of any skills
learned or not learned!
Oh, if you google montessori and reading, you'll find lots of
products to buy but also some explaining of the (very rigid) methods
and activities that are occasionally interesting to strew...
--aj
<fotoceo@c...> wrote:
> So, she looks for learning to read programs at the library. I helpher
> as much as I can, but I don't like the tools we've found.I have a book (bought long ago, before I came to unschooling) called
>
> I would love to have better tools to help her with this
_Montessori Read & Write_ by Lynne Lawrence. It might have some
different kinds of activities your daughter would like.
Overall, I have tons of problems with the book, but there might be
bits that are good!
My four year old son is interested in writing letters, but seems to
get upset at making mistakes. When dd got a Magna-Doodle, which can
be erased very quickly, ds was suddenly much more interested in
writing and okay with making mistakes. In the same vein, there are
lots of activities in this book that involve physical manipulation of
sandpaper letters, wooden letters, etc. Again, I'm guessing this is
different than other learning to read programs, but maybe not.
Hmm, I may try one of the ideas I just saw in the book. Write action
words on index cards and act out whatever the kids pull out of the
pile. Sounds like fun on a rainy day, regardless of any skills
learned or not learned!
Oh, if you google montessori and reading, you'll find lots of
products to buy but also some explaining of the (very rigid) methods
and activities that are occasionally interesting to strew...
--aj
bunsofaluminum
This has some good points. We don't live in a bubble, and schooled
kids are going to wonder about differences in other kids,and mostly
they're not going to be kind about those differences.
In our case, I wish I had known about "spatial intelligence" years
ago. I might have used that wording earlier in Katie's life. In fact,
that's what I'm going to talk to her about this afternoon. She's had
a tendency to "lead" with her inability to read, when introducing
herself or talking to a new grown-up. Like "sorry. I can't read. I
have dyslexia." apologetically, almost.
She got a kick out of the description of kids who "can find any item
anywhere in the house" in a book on different types of minds. It fits
her to a T. Spatial intelligence.
So, if a kid has gotten into a habit of saying "I'm K---and I'm
dyslexic", would you recommend talking to her about it (I already
have, btw. Just "You know, you have a lot more inside of you than
just dyslexic.")
and, I'm going to be exploring this spatial intelligence idea with
her more extensively.
blessings, HeidiC
oh. It doesn't take hanging out with schooled kids for a kid to know.
When she was three, we took her to speech therapy, and she was quite
sad that she needed help with her speaking. That's one decision I do
regret, though her speech therapist was a sweety.
kids are going to wonder about differences in other kids,and mostly
they're not going to be kind about those differences.
In our case, I wish I had known about "spatial intelligence" years
ago. I might have used that wording earlier in Katie's life. In fact,
that's what I'm going to talk to her about this afternoon. She's had
a tendency to "lead" with her inability to read, when introducing
herself or talking to a new grown-up. Like "sorry. I can't read. I
have dyslexia." apologetically, almost.
She got a kick out of the description of kids who "can find any item
anywhere in the house" in a book on different types of minds. It fits
her to a T. Spatial intelligence.
So, if a kid has gotten into a habit of saying "I'm K---and I'm
dyslexic", would you recommend talking to her about it (I already
have, btw. Just "You know, you have a lot more inside of you than
just dyslexic.")
and, I'm going to be exploring this spatial intelligence idea with
her more extensively.
blessings, HeidiC
oh. It doesn't take hanging out with schooled kids for a kid to know.
When she was three, we took her to speech therapy, and she was quite
sad that she needed help with her speaking. That's one decision I do
regret, though her speech therapist was a sweety.
>kids,
> My experience is that if your kids are hanging out with schooled
> they will feel SOME pressure to be "at level" with whatever the
> schooled kids are doing SOME of the time.
> Joni Zander
> FotoCEO@c...
Jackie Chovanes
On Mar 23, 2005, at 2:59 PM, bunsofaluminum wrote:
Multiple Intelligences" by Thomas Armstrong. It's based on Gardner's
work, and talks a lot about specific ways to help all kids learn in the
ways that are best suited to their strengths. He feels that ADHD, LD,
dyslexia, etc. are not disabilities, but just idiosyncratic ways people
learn -- they're only dysfunctional in a traditional school setting.
It's not specifically a homeschooling book, but he recommends
homeschooling to anyone dissatisfied with the way their kids are
treated in school.
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
> and, I'm going to be exploring this spatial intelligence idea withI really liked the book "In Their Own Way: Encouraging Your Child's
> her more extensively.
>
> blessings, HeidiC
Multiple Intelligences" by Thomas Armstrong. It's based on Gardner's
work, and talks a lot about specific ways to help all kids learn in the
ways that are best suited to their strengths. He feels that ADHD, LD,
dyslexia, etc. are not disabilities, but just idiosyncratic ways people
learn -- they're only dysfunctional in a traditional school setting.
It's not specifically a homeschooling book, but he recommends
homeschooling to anyone dissatisfied with the way their kids are
treated in school.
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
Brenda Rose
>>>Her experience in girl scouts...She quit, but not because she couldn'tMy ds Joshua did quit cub scouts partly because he couldn't read and partly
>>>read<<<
because he was no longer enjoying it. It was a few months after I quit
being his den leader. The new leader liked to have the boys play hangman or
other word games when they had free time, instead of letting them play
outside on the playground or in the gym. But Joshua wasn't yet reading and
he was no longer having any fun at meetings. They had become very
schoolish, with written assignments to bring home. I had started going to
school myself and couldn't be the leader. This is one of my big regrets!
But, happily, Joshua has decided that he wants to join boy scouts (ds James
is in the troop) and be able to go to summer camp and on camping weekends.
He will be 11 at the end of May and is still only a beginning reader, but he
seems to be on the verge of breaking through (he's my 6th child and I can
see some signs). I've assured him that I will help him if there is any
reading or writing that he can't handle. What was especially sweet was when
his brother told him that if he needs any help at camp he will help him (is
that clear as mud?). I also just found out that the very academic leader,
who Joshua wasn't really wanting to have again (in this pack and troop the
leaders generally move up with the boys), recently moved away. I think I
may need to get back involved with scouts.:-)
Brenda Rose
bunsofaluminum
Thank you, I'll be looking it up at the library.
The book I have read is called "One Mind at a Time" by ??? Levine,
and he does point out the differences in learning styles, and thinks
they shouldn't be labeled as disabilities, but he focuses on parents
and teachers helping kids to get along in a schoolroom setting that
isn't conducive to their way of learning. He even mentions night-owl
kids, saying "It's too bad there isn't night school for these kids,
but because there isn't, here's how to help them be alert during the
day when they've been up until 2am the night before..." etc.
I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their learning
styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
type learning environment.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Jackie Chovanes
<jchovanes@m...> wrote:
The book I have read is called "One Mind at a Time" by ??? Levine,
and he does point out the differences in learning styles, and thinks
they shouldn't be labeled as disabilities, but he focuses on parents
and teachers helping kids to get along in a schoolroom setting that
isn't conducive to their way of learning. He even mentions night-owl
kids, saying "It's too bad there isn't night school for these kids,
but because there isn't, here's how to help them be alert during the
day when they've been up until 2am the night before..." etc.
I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their learning
styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
type learning environment.
blessings, HeidiC
--- In [email protected], Jackie Chovanes
<jchovanes@m...> wrote:
>Child's
>
> On Mar 23, 2005, at 2:59 PM, bunsofaluminum wrote:
>
> > and, I'm going to be exploring this spatial intelligence idea with
> > her more extensively.
> >
> > blessings, HeidiC
>
> I really liked the book "In Their Own Way: Encouraging Your
> Multiple Intelligences" by Thomas Armstrong. It's based onGardner's
> work, and talks a lot about specific ways to help all kids learn inthe
> ways that are best suited to their strengths. He feels that ADHD,LD,
> dyslexia, etc. are not disabilities, but just idiosyncratic wayspeople
> learn -- they're only dysfunctional in a traditional schoolsetting.
> It's not specifically a homeschooling book, but he recommends
> homeschooling to anyone dissatisfied with the way their kids are
> treated in school.
>
> Jackie Chovanes
> jchovanes@m...
Jackie Chovanes
On Mar 24, 2005, at 9:50 AM, bunsofaluminum wrote:
schools operate to accommodate all the learning styles, rather than
offering strategies for kids with different learning styles to get
along in traditional school. He also quotes and discusses John Holt a
lot. The one thing he didn't really get into was curriculum -- he
didn't spend too much time (as I remember it, it's been a few months
since I read it) critiquing *what* kids in school are expected to
learn.
Anyway, I hope it's useful to you :-).
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
>I thought the Armstrong book did this -- he advocates changing how
> I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their learning
> styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
> type learning environment.
>
> blessings, HeidiC
schools operate to accommodate all the learning styles, rather than
offering strategies for kids with different learning styles to get
along in traditional school. He also quotes and discusses John Holt a
lot. The one thing he didn't really get into was curriculum -- he
didn't spend too much time (as I remember it, it's been a few months
since I read it) critiquing *what* kids in school are expected to
learn.
Anyway, I hope it's useful to you :-).
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/05 8:25:59 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
<< I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their learning
styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
type learning environment. >>
Why do you need a book?
<< I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their learning
styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
type learning environment. >>
Why do you need a book?
bunsofaluminum
ah.
Rewording.
I'd like to find the book that helps me understand that it really IS
just differences in learning style, not disabilities, nor special-ed-
ness, so that I can encourage them in their different styles.
Maybe an idea book. A practical help for me, because I'm not an idea
person. I mean, my smarts aren't in the "think outside the box"
intelligence. LOL
blessings HeidiC
Rewording.
I'd like to find the book that helps me understand that it really IS
just differences in learning style, not disabilities, nor special-ed-
ness, so that I can encourage them in their different styles.
Maybe an idea book. A practical help for me, because I'm not an idea
person. I mean, my smarts aren't in the "think outside the box"
intelligence. LOL
blessings HeidiC
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/24/05 8:25:59 AM, bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> << I'd like to find the book that encourages my kids in their
learning
>
> styles without trying to "help them" get along in a linear/visual
>
> type learning environment. >>
>
> Why do you need a book?
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 3:25:14 PM Mountain Standard Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
I'd like to find the book that helps me understand that it really IS
just differences in learning style, not disabilities, nor special-ed-
ness, so that I can encourage them in their different styles.
Are you sure there IS such a book?
Can't you encourage them in their different styles without having a book?
Why would a book be better than websites and online resources?
It's not just a rephrase situation, it's a question about why having a book
(or "the book" as you've reworded it <g>) would change the situation for you,
either mentally or physically or philosophically.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:
I'd like to find the book that helps me understand that it really IS
just differences in learning style, not disabilities, nor special-ed-
ness, so that I can encourage them in their different styles.
Are you sure there IS such a book?
Can't you encourage them in their different styles without having a book?
Why would a book be better than websites and online resources?
It's not just a rephrase situation, it's a question about why having a book
(or "the book" as you've reworded it <g>) would change the situation for you,
either mentally or physically or philosophically.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bunsofaluminum
well, there are books out now about different intelligences. I'd like
to find one that describes the differences, and then gives non-school
advice or maybe just "Some ideas for fun with kids who think
spatially"
and of course I can encourage them without a book. I just tend to be
a booky person, and would better learn about this myself, by reading
a book.
and I did say "the" book, in my initial post. The rewording was
from "finding a book to help my kids," to "finding a book to help me
encourage them and not stress about their different styles of
learning." It doesn't help that my mom is fretting over the late-
starting reader. She cites an adult she knows who can't read, and
doesn't want to hear the theory, that school methods damaged him more
than helping him.
meanwhile, I read books about different intelligences, and sorta
shake my head over the abundance of advice for how to help the
different learners jump through all the school hoops, when what we
need is a system that lets them learn as they learn, and truly at
their own pace.
ah, but that's why we are doing the way we ARE doing, here at home.
and sticking close to the unschooling discussions online!
blessings, HeidiC
to find one that describes the differences, and then gives non-school
advice or maybe just "Some ideas for fun with kids who think
spatially"
and of course I can encourage them without a book. I just tend to be
a booky person, and would better learn about this myself, by reading
a book.
and I did say "the" book, in my initial post. The rewording was
from "finding a book to help my kids," to "finding a book to help me
encourage them and not stress about their different styles of
learning." It doesn't help that my mom is fretting over the late-
starting reader. She cites an adult she knows who can't read, and
doesn't want to hear the theory, that school methods damaged him more
than helping him.
meanwhile, I read books about different intelligences, and sorta
shake my head over the abundance of advice for how to help the
different learners jump through all the school hoops, when what we
need is a system that lets them learn as they learn, and truly at
their own pace.
ah, but that's why we are doing the way we ARE doing, here at home.
and sticking close to the unschooling discussions online!
blessings, HeidiC
> Are you sure there IS such a book?a book?
>
> Can't you encourage them in their different styles without having
>having a book
> Why would a book be better than websites and online resources?
>
> It's not just a rephrase situation, it's a question about why
> (or "the book" as you've reworded it <g>) would change thesituation for you,
> either mentally or physically or philosophically.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
**well, there are books out now about different intelligences. I'd like
to find one that describes the differences, and then gives non-school
advice or maybe just "Some ideas for fun with kids who think
spatially"**
Thomas Armstrong recently wrote a book about multiple intelligences for kids,
called You're Smarter Than You Think. It's pretty much what you describe
above, as well as some fun ideas to flex the intelligences you're not so strong
in.
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to find one that describes the differences, and then gives non-school
advice or maybe just "Some ideas for fun with kids who think
spatially"**
Thomas Armstrong recently wrote a book about multiple intelligences for kids,
called You're Smarter Than You Think. It's pretty much what you describe
above, as well as some fun ideas to flex the intelligences you're not so strong
in.
Deborah in IL
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]