[Unschooling Discussion] Intro and Food Choices
Caprice Erickson
Hello. I have been lurking for over a month now and I have found the list to be very stimulating. Before I bring up what I want to talk about I will give you a little background information about me and my family.
Dh and I will be married for 14 years this May. We have two ds, Charles (12) and Julian (9), and dd Willow (5) and also a dd on the way (due June 1). Our children have never been to school. We have never done 'school at home' either, but I have played around with various levels of structure especially in the early years. However, I kept coming back to the conclusion, the less structure the better. My real stumbling blocks (in regards to working toward the kind of ideal environment I envisioned) have been computer/video game/TV. I had a big hang up about those. After much internal debate, discussions with dh, and going to an unschooler friendly conference, I was right on the edge of letting go completely. Reading the discussions on this list pushed me over the edge (in a good way).
While reading the list I also came across references to letting children have complete control over what and when they eat. Wow. Scary, yet intriguing. So I have been thinking about it a lot, and talking to dh, and I read the stuff from Sandra's site. I understand the principle, and it certainly makes sense. So we have been trying it. But (isn't there always a big but hanging around?), the practical application of this idea is not simple for me. I am full of questions and squirming doubts and frustration.
It seems to me that the principle of giving children control of food is not about expecting them to eventually start eating on their own the way you would choose for them. Right? Rather, it is about trusting them and accepting their choices whatever they are.
I have some very strong opinions about what is good food and bad food. I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences to reach these opinions. Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when my dd reaches for cookie number six? Yet I don't want to nag her or make her feel guilty. And what about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then there is supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook them something else? Something different for each child? That is a lot of cooking.
I guess I would like some examples of how this works in different families. Either I need to commit to this idea whole heartedly and work through my issues or I need to go back to my old comfortable ways (geez that sounds unenlightened!).
TIA,
Caprice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dh and I will be married for 14 years this May. We have two ds, Charles (12) and Julian (9), and dd Willow (5) and also a dd on the way (due June 1). Our children have never been to school. We have never done 'school at home' either, but I have played around with various levels of structure especially in the early years. However, I kept coming back to the conclusion, the less structure the better. My real stumbling blocks (in regards to working toward the kind of ideal environment I envisioned) have been computer/video game/TV. I had a big hang up about those. After much internal debate, discussions with dh, and going to an unschooler friendly conference, I was right on the edge of letting go completely. Reading the discussions on this list pushed me over the edge (in a good way).
While reading the list I also came across references to letting children have complete control over what and when they eat. Wow. Scary, yet intriguing. So I have been thinking about it a lot, and talking to dh, and I read the stuff from Sandra's site. I understand the principle, and it certainly makes sense. So we have been trying it. But (isn't there always a big but hanging around?), the practical application of this idea is not simple for me. I am full of questions and squirming doubts and frustration.
It seems to me that the principle of giving children control of food is not about expecting them to eventually start eating on their own the way you would choose for them. Right? Rather, it is about trusting them and accepting their choices whatever they are.
I have some very strong opinions about what is good food and bad food. I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences to reach these opinions. Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when my dd reaches for cookie number six? Yet I don't want to nag her or make her feel guilty. And what about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then there is supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook them something else? Something different for each child? That is a lot of cooking.
I guess I would like some examples of how this works in different families. Either I need to commit to this idea whole heartedly and work through my issues or I need to go back to my old comfortable ways (geez that sounds unenlightened!).
TIA,
Caprice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
> It seems to me that the principle of giving children control offood is not about expecting them to eventually start eating on their
own the way you would choose for them. Right? Rather, it is about
trusting them and accepting their choices whatever they are.
>food. I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences
> I have some very strong opinions about what is good food and bad
to reach these opinions. Surely I shouldn't just ignore this
background and smile cheerfully when my dd reaches for cookie number
six? Yet I don't want to nag her or make her feel guilty. And what
about shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then there is
supper. If the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook
them something else? Something different for each child? That is a
lot of cooking.
>families. Either I need to commit to this idea whole heartedly and
> I guess I would like some examples of how this works in different
work through my issues or I need to go back to my old comfortable
ways (geez that sounds unenlightened!).
>You have information. They don't have that same information. Provide
> TIA,
> Caprice
>
the information to them, just as you would provide it to DH. Talk
about how they feel after 102 cookies, 17 Cokes and nothing else for
a day or two (quantities wildly exaggerated to make the point). For
example, DS is almost 7. I noticed that if he didn't get some
protein in regularly, he'd be more easily frustrated and generally
uncomfortable inside his own skin. I mentioned to him one day, when
things were heading in the same direction yet again (but after my
connecting A to B), "Hey, I've noticed you get really frustrated
when you haven't had some protein. How about I make you a PBJ?" And
off we headed to the kitchen - don't remember whether he had that or
if I got him some cheese and crackers or what. Point is, I had some
info that would be useful to him and gave it to him. Now we have a
list of protein foods on our kitchen wall chalkboard so he has easy
reference when he wants something. In similar vein, DH is
hypertensive, so checking sodium quantities and such in foods is
something we do. DS has been known to check a label and say "Daddy,
this has too much sodium in it for us" He has also used label info
to decide that one type of soda is a better choice than another, if
we're buying soda at that point. And, sometimes, he chooses
regardless. Over all, though, he has a very well balanced eating
pattern.
Alternate meals? We keep simple stuff handy - PBJ is easy
(especially for kids old enough to handle a spoon to spread with),
cheese and crackers (a wire cheese slicer is safe for kids to use),
cooked pasta than can be easily re-heated (or eaten cold as DS will
sometimes do), pre-sliced, ready to eat fruits and veggies in the
fridge, etc. We also do lots of mix n match meals - pasta, sauce,
meatballs, cheeses, all separate to build as each chooses; flour
tortillas, tomatoes, lettuce, cheese, beans/chili, salsa, sour cream
all separate so each person can build a burriot, taco, wrap to their
liking (sometimes DS simply wants a pile of cheese with some diced
tomato on a tortilla wrap-style); rice, stir fried or otherwise
cooked veggies, meat if any for custom stir fry meals, and so on.
We'll also put out the salad/fresh veggies out ahead of time for DS
to munch while the rest of dinner is on. Sure, he may fill up on
carrots and tomatoes (the little easy to manage kind) and cucumbers
and cheese and bell peppers and eat little dinner but hey, I'm not
complaining.
If you've been limiting/controlling food, go slowly releasing the
controls. Say yes more but to simply "let loose the hounds" is going
to probably cause you more stress and confuse the kids - which is
likely to result in a rebound effect.
Give the kids say in the grocery shopping - DS shops with me (handy
for getting stuff off low shelves!). They have the usual assortment
of snack cakes right at the front of the bread and PB aisle. I
stopped there and asked if he wanted anything. He said Not here,
where's the cottage cheese? We also talk, not only about nutrition,
but about money - we can afford this OR that this week. Which would
you prefer? We can put the other on the next list (and we do - that
part is important). He knows he has free range (within budget) to
choose items and help me choose within some categories (which jams
should we get?) For a time, he was just in love with a particular
snack cake. We'd buy one pack per week (snack cakes really run up
the grocery bill). Then, that exact item went on sale 5 for $5. So
we stopped at that spot and I told DS go get FIVE of those. He was
beyond belief happy. If it wasn't for me brown bagging them and DH
eating them too, the last couple of boxes would never have been
touched. My point being, DS knows he can have them when he wants
pretty much, so he doesn't need to have them all the time. There's
no sense of neediness or the "famine" mentality associated with ANY
foods for him - he'll eat bell pepper slices as readily as an Oreo,
if bell pepper slices are what he's wanting right then. He's been
known to eat an entire canteloupe over the course of a day.
Waitresses get a kick out of him ordering just a salad and iced tea
at restaurants, or making sure we order him a spinach dip for
himself (often that's his whole meal, eaten with a fork, he doesn't
like the tortilla chips - some places now do an "Atkins" spinach dip
platter with fresh veggies that he really likes), or getting "just
the salad bar" at some places - and eating a good full plate of
veggies, cheese, diced eggs and ham, and fruit. He dislikes places
that only have iceberg lettuce in their salads - it has no flavor.
He's never been limited deliberately by us - economics, yes; us, no.
And we get interesting comments from folks when they see him eating
fresh veggies, vegan chili, fruit, etc. along with cake or cookies
or whatever. "How did you 'get' him to do that?" Simple, we didn't.
We just never crimped his internal guidance system.
Whoa - running on here. I'll stop before it becomes a major novel ;-)
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<"How did you 'get' him to do that?" Simple, we didn't.
We just never crimped his internal guidance system.
Whoa - running on here. I'll stop before it becomes a major novel >>>>>
I'm so glad you "ran on" as long as you did, because this last idea is such
a great expression of the idea of no food limits. I feel exactly this way
about Jayn who has not been food limited in any way. As parents it seems
that we have so much power to actually do harm, despite the best intentions.
However the question is how to restore the internal guidance system of kids
who have had it redirected to greater or lesser extents.
I would encourage the original poster to browse the archives. Simplified the
collated experience/advice includes:
* Just start by saying yes more often.
* Expect a brief period of painful (to Mom) choices while the kids revel in
their new freedoms. It will pass quicker if it is not "crimped".
* Your offered knowledge/advice will likely be more accepted after the
decompression period is past and the kids have learnt to trust that you are
not trying to manipulate or control them.
Wow, this seems to apply to every area really.
I would also suggest being ready to re-examine the idea of family mealtimes,
especially if resentments about overwork for Mom are ensuing. Unschooling
frees each family from cultural expectations of normalcy in many areas, and
allows us to create our own family traditions. Not everyone sits down at
table all together every evening. Many Unschoolers apply respecting family
members' freedom of choice to this practice also. The principle of Inviting
rather than Expecting applies.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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We just never crimped his internal guidance system.
Whoa - running on here. I'll stop before it becomes a major novel >>>>>
I'm so glad you "ran on" as long as you did, because this last idea is such
a great expression of the idea of no food limits. I feel exactly this way
about Jayn who has not been food limited in any way. As parents it seems
that we have so much power to actually do harm, despite the best intentions.
However the question is how to restore the internal guidance system of kids
who have had it redirected to greater or lesser extents.
I would encourage the original poster to browse the archives. Simplified the
collated experience/advice includes:
* Just start by saying yes more often.
* Expect a brief period of painful (to Mom) choices while the kids revel in
their new freedoms. It will pass quicker if it is not "crimped".
* Your offered knowledge/advice will likely be more accepted after the
decompression period is past and the kids have learnt to trust that you are
not trying to manipulate or control them.
Wow, this seems to apply to every area really.
I would also suggest being ready to re-examine the idea of family mealtimes,
especially if resentments about overwork for Mom are ensuing. Unschooling
frees each family from cultural expectations of normalcy in many areas, and
allows us to create our own family traditions. Not everyone sits down at
table all together every evening. Many Unschoolers apply respecting family
members' freedom of choice to this practice also. The principle of Inviting
rather than Expecting applies.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/22/05 9:28:24 AM, debra.rossing@... writes:
<< Talk
about how they feel after 102 cookies, 17 Cokes and nothing else for
a day or two >>
Exaggerations like that just reinforce the idea that anyone WOULD eat nothing
but cookies and coke for a day or two, but it never ever happens. It doesn't
even START to happen.
It's l ike saying "Ask them how they feel after they've done nothing but play
video games for three days straight without sleeping or going to the bathroom.
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
Those things don't happen.
Adults make the claim and then react to the claim. It's a straw man, and the
children are burned as effigies for a straw man that never existed in reality.
-=-For
example, DS is almost 7. I noticed that if he didn't get some
protein in regularly, he'd be more easily frustrated and generally
uncomfortable inside his own skin.-=-
YES, certainly, encourage protein if they're feeling its lack, but that can
be done easily and cheerfully and honestly without exaggeration.
Better yet, make him a cool peanut butter and cream cheese sandwich on an
English muffin and some hot chocolate and tell him you love him without a lecture
on proteins effect on the brain.
-=-If you've been limiting/controlling food, go slowly releasing the
controls. Say yes more but to simply "let loose the hounds" is going
to probably cause you more stress and confuse the kids - which is
likely to result in a rebound effect. -=-
YES.
And when you release a control or rule, go through it in your own mind and
heart and realize how arbitrary it was. This will help in other areas, like
reading, math, how long he can stay out after a movie ends and whether his socks
need to be folded exactly your way or whether he can experiment.
-=-There's
no sense of neediness or the "famine" mentality associated with ANY
foods for him - he'll eat bell pepper slices as readily as an Oreo,
if bell pepper slices are what he's wanting right then. He's been
known to eat an entire canteloupe over the course of a day. -=-
Like Holly, only not the oreos. She doesn't like them at all.
-=-Waitresses get a kick out of . . . a spinach dip for
himself-=-
Holly, same too.
-=-Whoa - running on here. I'll stop before it becomes a major novel ;-)-=-
It was a good novel, except that scary intro with the flaming straw man.
Sandra
<< Talk
about how they feel after 102 cookies, 17 Cokes and nothing else for
a day or two >>
Exaggerations like that just reinforce the idea that anyone WOULD eat nothing
but cookies and coke for a day or two, but it never ever happens. It doesn't
even START to happen.
It's l ike saying "Ask them how they feel after they've done nothing but play
video games for three days straight without sleeping or going to the bathroom.
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
Those things don't happen.
Adults make the claim and then react to the claim. It's a straw man, and the
children are burned as effigies for a straw man that never existed in reality.
-=-For
example, DS is almost 7. I noticed that if he didn't get some
protein in regularly, he'd be more easily frustrated and generally
uncomfortable inside his own skin.-=-
YES, certainly, encourage protein if they're feeling its lack, but that can
be done easily and cheerfully and honestly without exaggeration.
Better yet, make him a cool peanut butter and cream cheese sandwich on an
English muffin and some hot chocolate and tell him you love him without a lecture
on proteins effect on the brain.
-=-If you've been limiting/controlling food, go slowly releasing the
controls. Say yes more but to simply "let loose the hounds" is going
to probably cause you more stress and confuse the kids - which is
likely to result in a rebound effect. -=-
YES.
And when you release a control or rule, go through it in your own mind and
heart and realize how arbitrary it was. This will help in other areas, like
reading, math, how long he can stay out after a movie ends and whether his socks
need to be folded exactly your way or whether he can experiment.
-=-There's
no sense of neediness or the "famine" mentality associated with ANY
foods for him - he'll eat bell pepper slices as readily as an Oreo,
if bell pepper slices are what he's wanting right then. He's been
known to eat an entire canteloupe over the course of a day. -=-
Like Holly, only not the oreos. She doesn't like them at all.
-=-Waitresses get a kick out of . . . a spinach dip for
himself-=-
Holly, same too.
-=-Whoa - running on here. I'll stop before it becomes a major novel ;-)-=-
It was a good novel, except that scary intro with the flaming straw man.
Sandra
Jackie Chovanes
On Mar 22, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Caprice Erickson wrote:
caveat that my kids are still very young (almost 5 and 2), so I may
have to rethink things as they get older.
First of all, we plan our dinner menus as a family -- it only takes
about 15 minutes once a week. I print out a menu form I made on the
computer which also has a section to write what I'll need from the
grocery store. Then dh and I sit with the kids and everyone offers
suggestions as to what they'd like. It's easy and fun, and then when
the meals are being served, the kids get a kick out of eating from the
menus they've helped to create. It really helps me because while I
love to cook, I sometimes get in a rut or just feel stumped when it
comes to thinking of what to make. Also at this time, everyone makes
their requests for the week's groceries. It makes shopping easier for
me, because I'm not guessing what people might want, and we have a lot
less waste, because all items are either wanted or planned for in the
menu.
Dinner goes really smoothly for us because I don't make stuff my kids
don't like (dh and I will be really happy when their tastes grow to
include more casseroles and spicier dishes, though, LOL), and if there
is something on the menu that one person doesn't like, I know in
advance to make an alternative, so it doesn't seem like a pain at the
time. For example, dd1 doesn't like anything mixed together -- she
used to, but doesn't right now -- so when everyone else is having beef
stew, I either saute her meat and steam her vegetables separately
(which only takes a few minutes), or I make her a hot dog or some
canned soup and she eats some veggies from the salad. The kids are
always happy to came to the table because they know they will not be
pressured to eat anything -- even if it is their favorite, they always
have the option of saying "No thanks." They are very willing to try
new things, because they have never been forced to eat something they
didn't like. They are free to leave the table whenever they please,
but usually they stick around because we are enjoying each others'
company and their dad has been away at work all day, and they want to
be where he is. Now, I'm not saying it's a Martha Stewart experience,
with perfectly groomed little angels eating with perfect manners! Dd2
usually prefers to stand on her chair while eating, Dd1squirts ketchup
off her plate onto the table more times than not, but our priority is
having it be an experience they enjoy and look forward to, not a table
manners critiquing session ;-).
As far as food issues for the rest of the day, pretty much I just make
them what they want when they want it. They are both extremely healthy
kids -- never been to the doctor for any reason other than routine
check-ups. Both are in the 75th percentile for weight, and the 95th
for height. They are bright, active, and happy. I have a candy jar
filled with their favorites, and sometimes weeks will go by without
them paying it any attention whatsoever. When they do want some, they
serve themselves, and they always take about 3 or 4 pieces each, which
I think is reasonable. Sometimes they get on a kick, started by one
and imitated by the other, where they want ice cream for breakfast
every day for a week or so -- so I give it to them, and then it fades
away for a few months. They like the typical kids' foods: hot dogs,
mac/cheese, grilled cheese, spaghetti; but they also love my homemade
minestrone, spinach pie, tabbouli, humus, and they eat any separately
cooked meat or seafood, plus veggies, and then a rice, potato or pasta
side for dinner that I make. They are not big breakfast eaters, once
in a while dd2 will have a scrambled egg. Their favorite for lunch is
for me to make them a plate with a bunch of different foods on it --
cheese cubes or slices, some sliced meat, little pickles, garbanzo
beans, olives, cukes or tomatoes, some grapes or other fresh fruit, and
maybe a cookie. During the day, they snack on whatever we have
available -- and here I will admit to stacking the deck pretty severely
(which I admit I may not be able to continue to do when they are older)
-- I do not buy processed foods like ChipsAhoy cookies, or even the
organic ones. I bake all of our bread, make all of our cookies, cakes,
etc. from good quality, whole grain (where possible) ingredients. The
kids like to bake so much that we do it at least twice a week, so we
really have no need for store-bought cookies, etc. I always keep lots
of fruit and veggies that I know they like in the fridge -- my kids
would rather eat raw green beans than potato chips any day, but, if we
happen to have chips, I don't restrict them. They also, for some
reason, love frozen corn and frozen peas. Oh, and of course, frozen
blueberries are a staple for us. For the stuff that still gives me the
willies (hot dogs and mac and cheese from a box), I buy the best
quality I can find (the natural casing hot dogs from the deli, and
Annie's organic mac and cheese) and just let go whatever reservations I
may have about them -- I feel so good about the rest of their diet, I
can afford to relax about some stuff.
Sorry this got so long, hope it was helpful.
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
> I have some very strong opinions about what is good food and bad food.Here's what we do, and it seems to be working well, but I'll add the
> I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences to reach
> these opinions. Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and
> smile cheerfully when my dd reaches for cookie number six? Yet I
> don't want to nag her or make her feel guilty. And what about
> shopping? How do I decide what to buy? And then there is supper. If
> the kids don't want to eat what I have planned do I cook them
> something else? Something different for each child? That is a lot of
> cooking.
caveat that my kids are still very young (almost 5 and 2), so I may
have to rethink things as they get older.
First of all, we plan our dinner menus as a family -- it only takes
about 15 minutes once a week. I print out a menu form I made on the
computer which also has a section to write what I'll need from the
grocery store. Then dh and I sit with the kids and everyone offers
suggestions as to what they'd like. It's easy and fun, and then when
the meals are being served, the kids get a kick out of eating from the
menus they've helped to create. It really helps me because while I
love to cook, I sometimes get in a rut or just feel stumped when it
comes to thinking of what to make. Also at this time, everyone makes
their requests for the week's groceries. It makes shopping easier for
me, because I'm not guessing what people might want, and we have a lot
less waste, because all items are either wanted or planned for in the
menu.
Dinner goes really smoothly for us because I don't make stuff my kids
don't like (dh and I will be really happy when their tastes grow to
include more casseroles and spicier dishes, though, LOL), and if there
is something on the menu that one person doesn't like, I know in
advance to make an alternative, so it doesn't seem like a pain at the
time. For example, dd1 doesn't like anything mixed together -- she
used to, but doesn't right now -- so when everyone else is having beef
stew, I either saute her meat and steam her vegetables separately
(which only takes a few minutes), or I make her a hot dog or some
canned soup and she eats some veggies from the salad. The kids are
always happy to came to the table because they know they will not be
pressured to eat anything -- even if it is their favorite, they always
have the option of saying "No thanks." They are very willing to try
new things, because they have never been forced to eat something they
didn't like. They are free to leave the table whenever they please,
but usually they stick around because we are enjoying each others'
company and their dad has been away at work all day, and they want to
be where he is. Now, I'm not saying it's a Martha Stewart experience,
with perfectly groomed little angels eating with perfect manners! Dd2
usually prefers to stand on her chair while eating, Dd1squirts ketchup
off her plate onto the table more times than not, but our priority is
having it be an experience they enjoy and look forward to, not a table
manners critiquing session ;-).
As far as food issues for the rest of the day, pretty much I just make
them what they want when they want it. They are both extremely healthy
kids -- never been to the doctor for any reason other than routine
check-ups. Both are in the 75th percentile for weight, and the 95th
for height. They are bright, active, and happy. I have a candy jar
filled with their favorites, and sometimes weeks will go by without
them paying it any attention whatsoever. When they do want some, they
serve themselves, and they always take about 3 or 4 pieces each, which
I think is reasonable. Sometimes they get on a kick, started by one
and imitated by the other, where they want ice cream for breakfast
every day for a week or so -- so I give it to them, and then it fades
away for a few months. They like the typical kids' foods: hot dogs,
mac/cheese, grilled cheese, spaghetti; but they also love my homemade
minestrone, spinach pie, tabbouli, humus, and they eat any separately
cooked meat or seafood, plus veggies, and then a rice, potato or pasta
side for dinner that I make. They are not big breakfast eaters, once
in a while dd2 will have a scrambled egg. Their favorite for lunch is
for me to make them a plate with a bunch of different foods on it --
cheese cubes or slices, some sliced meat, little pickles, garbanzo
beans, olives, cukes or tomatoes, some grapes or other fresh fruit, and
maybe a cookie. During the day, they snack on whatever we have
available -- and here I will admit to stacking the deck pretty severely
(which I admit I may not be able to continue to do when they are older)
-- I do not buy processed foods like ChipsAhoy cookies, or even the
organic ones. I bake all of our bread, make all of our cookies, cakes,
etc. from good quality, whole grain (where possible) ingredients. The
kids like to bake so much that we do it at least twice a week, so we
really have no need for store-bought cookies, etc. I always keep lots
of fruit and veggies that I know they like in the fridge -- my kids
would rather eat raw green beans than potato chips any day, but, if we
happen to have chips, I don't restrict them. They also, for some
reason, love frozen corn and frozen peas. Oh, and of course, frozen
blueberries are a staple for us. For the stuff that still gives me the
willies (hot dogs and mac and cheese from a box), I buy the best
quality I can find (the natural casing hot dogs from the deli, and
Annie's organic mac and cheese) and just let go whatever reservations I
may have about them -- I feel so good about the rest of their diet, I
can afford to relax about some stuff.
Sorry this got so long, hope it was helpful.
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 22, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Caprice Erickson wrote:
gonna die?"
If your daughter is standing in front of a speeding Mack truck is she
gonna die? Very likely! It's best to grab her out of the way!
If your daughter eats cookie number 6 will she die? No, and she doesn't
want to be rescued from cookie number 6.
Will she eat 6 cookies everyday? Very unlikely. But one way you could
"help" her eat 6 cookies a day is by sending the message that 5 is a
limit she shouldn't cross.
I read anywhere from 0 words to 4 pages a day of whatever book is
currently in the bathroom. If someone told me I must not read more than
2 pages a day it would be really hard not to read *at least* 2 pages
and I'd want to sneak more. By setting a limit of 5 cookies it makes it
more difficult to choose no cookies when cookies are available.
The thing about limits imposed by others is it makes the limited thing
more attractive. It's easy to pass a door marked Janitorial Supplies
without feeling the need to open it and see what's there. But a door
that's marked "NO ADMITTANCE. AUTHORIZED PERSONNEL ONLY. DO NOT ENTER"
just begs to be opened ;-)
different conclusions about what was healthy? What if you could feel
his eyes on you as you made choices about what to eat and you knew he
was judging you by his standards? What if he gave you a running
commentary on what was good to eat as you were about to bite into
something to "help" you eat better? How would you feel about him and
about his food beliefs?
It's really irritating living with experts who know how we should live
better than we do ;-)
What we model and the choices we make for ourselves is far more likely
to pass onto our kids than us micromanaging the choices they make.
Make nutritious meals and snacks. Have nutritious food on hand. Make
nutritious choices for yourself. When a question comes up tell her why
you're making a particular choice for yourself. But let her make her
own choices. If she wants a specific something from the store, put it
on the list. if she wants to try some new fun snacky food, get it for
her. She will learn far more about the world by having the freedom to
experiment than she will by memorizing what you say is true.
If we say "This is what I believe," it gives us room to be wrong. If we
say "This is what is right," our credibility goes down if we're wrong!
;-) And our kids are less likely to trust the next so called truth
from us. And since the "truth" about nutrition seems to change yearly,
getting too specific about what's right and wrong to eat is putting
your credibility on borrowed time ;-)
Joyce
> Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfullyAnne Ohman asks herself in conflicting situations like this "Who's
> when my dd reaches for cookie number six?
gonna die?"
If your daughter is standing in front of a speeding Mack truck is she
gonna die? Very likely! It's best to grab her out of the way!
If your daughter eats cookie number 6 will she die? No, and she doesn't
want to be rescued from cookie number 6.
Will she eat 6 cookies everyday? Very unlikely. But one way you could
"help" her eat 6 cookies a day is by sending the message that 5 is a
limit she shouldn't cross.
I read anywhere from 0 words to 4 pages a day of whatever book is
currently in the bathroom. If someone told me I must not read more than
2 pages a day it would be really hard not to read *at least* 2 pages
and I'd want to sneak more. By setting a limit of 5 cookies it makes it
more difficult to choose no cookies when cookies are available.
The thing about limits imposed by others is it makes the limited thing
more attractive. It's easy to pass a door marked Janitorial Supplies
without feeling the need to open it and see what's there. But a door
that's marked "NO ADMITTANCE. AUTHORIZED PERSONNEL ONLY. DO NOT ENTER"
just begs to be opened ;-)
> I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences to reachWhat if your husband started reading extensively about food and came to
> these opinions.
different conclusions about what was healthy? What if you could feel
his eyes on you as you made choices about what to eat and you knew he
was judging you by his standards? What if he gave you a running
commentary on what was good to eat as you were about to bite into
something to "help" you eat better? How would you feel about him and
about his food beliefs?
It's really irritating living with experts who know how we should live
better than we do ;-)
What we model and the choices we make for ourselves is far more likely
to pass onto our kids than us micromanaging the choices they make.
Make nutritious meals and snacks. Have nutritious food on hand. Make
nutritious choices for yourself. When a question comes up tell her why
you're making a particular choice for yourself. But let her make her
own choices. If she wants a specific something from the store, put it
on the list. if she wants to try some new fun snacky food, get it for
her. She will learn far more about the world by having the freedom to
experiment than she will by memorizing what you say is true.
If we say "This is what I believe," it gives us room to be wrong. If we
say "This is what is right," our credibility goes down if we're wrong!
;-) And our kids are less likely to trust the next so called truth
from us. And since the "truth" about nutrition seems to change yearly,
getting too specific about what's right and wrong to eat is putting
your credibility on borrowed time ;-)
Joyce
Ruth
Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully when my dd reaches for cookie number six?
***************
My dd was a cookie monster. So much so my youngest son thought the cookie jar was actually her name cos everytime her hand was in it we all said "Sarah!!!" The more restrictions she got the more cookies she wanted. In the end I left the choice to her to have as many as she wanted and for several weeks she did this and then got tired of eating them all day long and now only eats them ( one or two not a whole batch lol)if she has baked them. I bought her cookie cutters and receipe books from e bay and printed them off the internet and she has turned her cookie love into a little hobby and sells the cookies to her friends, on a stall each year and gives them wrapped as gifts.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***************
My dd was a cookie monster. So much so my youngest son thought the cookie jar was actually her name cos everytime her hand was in it we all said "Sarah!!!" The more restrictions she got the more cookies she wanted. In the end I left the choice to her to have as many as she wanted and for several weeks she did this and then got tired of eating them all day long and now only eats them ( one or two not a whole batch lol)if she has baked them. I bought her cookie cutters and receipe books from e bay and printed them off the internet and she has turned her cookie love into a little hobby and sells the cookies to her friends, on a stall each year and gives them wrapped as gifts.
Ruth
____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
came up but when we next saw them in the market, DS wanted to get
some. So we got a small (99 cent) pack. He was all eager to get into
them when we got home. So I opened the pack and went on to other
things. Came back and there was half of one on the table and the
whole rest of the pack still in the bag. Took just one or two bites
and he was turned off - way too sugary sweet for him. He'd rather
eat an entire canteloupe or watermelon (he loves the personal size
watermelons, about as round as a bowling ball, and just the right
amount for one almost-7 yr old boy for a day). Given the free choice
since he was old enough to pick and choose, he tends to prefer the
more natural sweet things than the sugary things over the long haul.
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> if she wants to try some new fun snacky food, get it forDid that with those fluorescent circus peanuts - not sure why it
> her.
came up but when we next saw them in the market, DS wanted to get
some. So we got a small (99 cent) pack. He was all eager to get into
them when we got home. So I opened the pack and went on to other
things. Came back and there was half of one on the table and the
whole rest of the pack still in the bag. Took just one or two bites
and he was turned off - way too sugary sweet for him. He'd rather
eat an entire canteloupe or watermelon (he loves the personal size
watermelons, about as round as a bowling ball, and just the right
amount for one almost-7 yr old boy for a day). Given the free choice
since he was old enough to pick and choose, he tends to prefer the
more natural sweet things than the sugary things over the long haul.
Dana Matt
Came back and there was half of one on the
eater"--there aren't many foods he likes--but he is
equally selective (what I prefer to call it) with
candy--there are only a few varieties that he likes.
We often buy what looks good at the store, and end up
giving them to the cousins-who-eat-everything (from a
very food-controlling household--so they will eat
ANYTHING!!)
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> table and theMy youngest is what could be called a "picky
> whole rest of the pack still in the bag. Took just
> one or two bites
> and he was turned off - way too sugary sweet for
> him.
eater"--there aren't many foods he likes--but he is
equally selective (what I prefer to call it) with
candy--there are only a few varieties that he likes.
We often buy what looks good at the store, and end up
giving them to the cousins-who-eat-everything (from a
very food-controlling household--so they will eat
ANYTHING!!)
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/22/2005 3:18:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
Brenna and Logan just told me about how they were "gently" making fun of my
husband and I last night by imitating a conversation we had earlier in the
evening. I'm not sure about the "gently" because Logan laughed so hard he peed
his pants..>g<
He and I have been on this eating and exercise plan for a few weeks and have
been trying to be supportive and encouraging of each other. I guess they
heard our conversation where we were talking about what we had eaten. Me..."I
did a little better with more fruits and vegetables today." Broc..."I had
some vegetables....green chili in that soup we had for dinner." Me..."Green
Chili is not a vegetable!!" I just had to cringe!! Here I've been so good
about food controls for a couple of years and then saying something like that to
my husband!!
We were just kidding but they certainly picked up on it.
The kids had a good laugh about it. I think we amuse them more and more as
time goes on. They think we are both quite strange but seem to love us
anyway.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
>>It's really irritating living with experts who know how we should livebetter than we do ;-)<<
Brenna and Logan just told me about how they were "gently" making fun of my
husband and I last night by imitating a conversation we had earlier in the
evening. I'm not sure about the "gently" because Logan laughed so hard he peed
his pants..>g<
He and I have been on this eating and exercise plan for a few weeks and have
been trying to be supportive and encouraging of each other. I guess they
heard our conversation where we were talking about what we had eaten. Me..."I
did a little better with more fruits and vegetables today." Broc..."I had
some vegetables....green chili in that soup we had for dinner." Me..."Green
Chili is not a vegetable!!" I just had to cringe!! Here I've been so good
about food controls for a couple of years and then saying something like that to
my husband!!
We were just kidding but they certainly picked up on it.
The kids had a good laugh about it. I think we amuse them more and more as
time goes on. They think we are both quite strange but seem to love us
anyway.
Gail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Roslynn
I don't know about this. I used to have no food limits and the kids
did eat what they wanted when they wanted it. I even cooked to
order back in the day. I have had so many hospitalizations between
my son and my daughter that it's easier to take control of the foods
and if they are hungry offer choices, but not give free reign.
Explaining to the 2 yr old that she would end up in the hospital
again didn't deter her from wanting and eventually crying for what
she wanted. Didn't deter her when she got sick again either. And
yes, people do make bad choices, even adults. I can't expect a 2 yr
old to understand health choices each and every time. I can help
her to learn by explaining things, and trying again. But I have to
guide her choices by sometimes saying I know this is the better
choice because of *x*.
Roslynn
did eat what they wanted when they wanted it. I even cooked to
order back in the day. I have had so many hospitalizations between
my son and my daughter that it's easier to take control of the foods
and if they are hungry offer choices, but not give free reign.
Explaining to the 2 yr old that she would end up in the hospital
again didn't deter her from wanting and eventually crying for what
she wanted. Didn't deter her when she got sick again either. And
yes, people do make bad choices, even adults. I can't expect a 2 yr
old to understand health choices each and every time. I can help
her to learn by explaining things, and trying again. But I have to
guide her choices by sometimes saying I know this is the better
choice because of *x*.
Roslynn
>for
> about how they feel after 102 cookies, 17 Cokes and nothing else
>eat nothing
> a day or two >>
>
> Exaggerations like that just reinforce the idea that anyone WOULD
> but cookies and coke for a day or two, but it never ever happens.It doesn't
> even START to happen.
>
>
Angela S
<<<Explaining to the 2 yr old that she would end up in the hospital
again didn't deter her from wanting and eventually crying for what
she wanted. Didn't deter her when she got sick again either. >>>
It sounds like you have some other circumstances in your family because of
medical concerns. In my family, my children aren't going to end up in the
hospital for making their own food choices. Still, my kids can only choose
from what we have. I do buy things they like and want but sometimes we run
out and no one wants to go to the store to replace it. So, they choose from
what we have readily available. Closer to grocery day, we have more fresh
fruits and veggies because those get eaten first. As the week goes on,
there is less to choose from, but still enough variety that they can choose.
It's not always what I would pick, but it does round out over several days,
generally.
Angela
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
again didn't deter her from wanting and eventually crying for what
she wanted. Didn't deter her when she got sick again either. >>>
It sounds like you have some other circumstances in your family because of
medical concerns. In my family, my children aren't going to end up in the
hospital for making their own food choices. Still, my kids can only choose
from what we have. I do buy things they like and want but sometimes we run
out and no one wants to go to the store to replace it. So, they choose from
what we have readily available. Closer to grocery day, we have more fresh
fruits and veggies because those get eaten first. As the week goes on,
there is less to choose from, but still enough variety that they can choose.
It's not always what I would pick, but it does round out over several days,
generally.
Angela
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Roslynn
I would love to have a house that everyone could eat what everyone
else could eat. :::sigh::: My 2 yr old has to have a balance of
sugar and salt. It's not a problem usually if we are not eating
snacks because I never salt anything but when it comes to salty and
sweet we have a hard time. If only I could fill my house with
chocolate covered pretzels. ;)
Then we have my son. Fresh fruits, juices, dairy, and whole grains
are his trouble, mainly.(so everything I would want the children to
eat) Because of his intestinal disorder he can get impacted or go
to the opposite end of the spectrum and have watery stools very
easily by not eating a good balance. Baically he can't have his
favorites all the time; chocolate milk, pineapple, mandarin oranges,
cheese. He's also alergic to crustations. Found that out because
his (most) favorite food in the entire world is crab legs. Every
once in a while we let him have some because it is a mild reaction,
so far. I have to make sure to monitor him though.
It's because of these restrictions that it would make it very hard
to only have food choices in the house that would be good for all.
It's not too hard because I just let them have what they want
mostly, but put limits on it. That way they are not deprived, but
don't go overboard anymore.
Roslynn
else could eat. :::sigh::: My 2 yr old has to have a balance of
sugar and salt. It's not a problem usually if we are not eating
snacks because I never salt anything but when it comes to salty and
sweet we have a hard time. If only I could fill my house with
chocolate covered pretzels. ;)
Then we have my son. Fresh fruits, juices, dairy, and whole grains
are his trouble, mainly.(so everything I would want the children to
eat) Because of his intestinal disorder he can get impacted or go
to the opposite end of the spectrum and have watery stools very
easily by not eating a good balance. Baically he can't have his
favorites all the time; chocolate milk, pineapple, mandarin oranges,
cheese. He's also alergic to crustations. Found that out because
his (most) favorite food in the entire world is crab legs. Every
once in a while we let him have some because it is a mild reaction,
so far. I have to make sure to monitor him though.
It's because of these restrictions that it would make it very hard
to only have food choices in the house that would be good for all.
It's not too hard because I just let them have what they want
mostly, but put limits on it. That way they are not deprived, but
don't go overboard anymore.
Roslynn
>because of
> It sounds like you have some other circumstances in your family
> medical concerns. In my family, my children aren't going to endup in the
> hospital for making their own food choices. Still, my kids canonly choose
> from what we have. I do buy things they like and want butsometimes we run
> out and no one wants to go to the store to replace it. So, theychoose from
> what we have readily available. Closer to grocery day, we havemore fresh
> fruits and veggies because those get eaten first. >
>
> Angela
>
> game-enthusiast@a...
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 23, 2005, at 9:41 PM, Roslynn wrote:
letting them choose to mean hands off.
No, many 2 yos won't understand why something the like is dangerous to
them.
I'd liken the situation to a child wanting to run in a parking lot. You
don't just let them run. You find ways that will help them hold your
hand or hold onto something. Promising a trip to the park soon so they
have a safe place to run. Or you avoid parking lots as much as you can
until they can understand.
When there is imminent danger kids do want us to protect them. They may
want something else too, like running in the parking lot and it's up to
us to do the best we can to help them get what they want safely. In the
case of allergies it can be trying out substitute foods, not having the
tempting foods in the house, not taking them grocery shopping (or
having Dad do the aisle with the problematic foods).
The problem with explaining "letting them choose" in general ways is
that many parents are convinced of the imminent danger of TV, violence,
video games, artificial additives, meat and so on and feel they need to
protect their children from those things.
But kids don't end up in the hospital from glancing at a TV. They can
from Mack trucks and eating things they're allergic to and cliffs and
parking lots.
Joyce
> Explaining to the 2 yr old that she would end up in the hospitalIt's unfortunate that ideas get worded in ways that people interpret
> again didn't deter her from wanting and eventually crying for what
> she wanted.
letting them choose to mean hands off.
No, many 2 yos won't understand why something the like is dangerous to
them.
I'd liken the situation to a child wanting to run in a parking lot. You
don't just let them run. You find ways that will help them hold your
hand or hold onto something. Promising a trip to the park soon so they
have a safe place to run. Or you avoid parking lots as much as you can
until they can understand.
When there is imminent danger kids do want us to protect them. They may
want something else too, like running in the parking lot and it's up to
us to do the best we can to help them get what they want safely. In the
case of allergies it can be trying out substitute foods, not having the
tempting foods in the house, not taking them grocery shopping (or
having Dad do the aisle with the problematic foods).
The problem with explaining "letting them choose" in general ways is
that many parents are convinced of the imminent danger of TV, violence,
video games, artificial additives, meat and so on and feel they need to
protect their children from those things.
But kids don't end up in the hospital from glancing at a TV. They can
from Mack trucks and eating things they're allergic to and cliffs and
parking lots.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/05 7:38:14 AM, rroseacademy@... writes:
<< Then we have my son. Fresh fruits, juices, dairy, and whole grains
are his trouble, mainly.(so everything I would want the children to
eat) Because of his intestinal disorder he can get impacted or go
to the opposite end of the spectrum and have watery stools very
easily by not eating a good balance. >>
But he doesn't WANT that to happen, right?
(And watery stools are NOT life threatening in any way, and they're better
than getting impacted.)
Shouldn't he learn now to make good choices for himself? If he eats only
what he's allowed to eat by his mom, when he's older won't he reward his freedom
by eating what he has been denied?
-=-Baically he can't have his
favorites all the time; chocolate milk, pineapple, mandarin oranges,
cheese. -=-
Nobody has anything all the time.
-=-He's also alergic to crustations. -=-
I've never known ANY family, not even fishermen, to have crustaceons in the
house all the time.
-=-It's because of these restrictions that it would make it very hard
to only have food choices in the house that would be good for all. -=-
It sounds like a good opportunity to help them figure out how much is too
much, and what needs to be added to make up for having had a favorite. If
someone's eating a lot of meat and cheese, they might really NEED lettuce or oranges
or raisens or plums or apples to balance that. ANYone. That's not a
disorder, to need a variety and a balance of foods.
-= put limits on it. That way they are not deprived...-=-
If the want something and a limit has been put on it, how is that "not
deprived"?
I'm just being picky because it helps a lot for moms to be really clear in
their reasons and their thinking even at home in private. And on the list, it
helps for writers to be really clear to say what they meant to say.
-=-That way they are not deprived, but don't go overboard anymore.-=-
Why did they "go overboard" before?
Were they fresh from limits and they gorged and frolicked when the limits
were lifted?
Were they eating on their own without you making food for them or helping
them get good ideas about balance?
My kids have never "gone overboard" and so I'm curious as to what might cause
it in kids who have.
If kids have a life-threatening condition and have to have their foods
specially measured, prepared, or whatever, that's completely understandable and it's
an exception to the ideas being presented here. People often write here
about music and movies and really looking at things. Of course, if someone has a
child who's blind or deaf, those suggestions won't work (though the
principles behind them would, which is give them access to as much input as you can,
because the'll learn from all of it and make their own connections).
Marty and Kirby could only eat liquid food when they had their wisdom teeth
out a week and a half ago. They were on liquid-to-soft food for DAYS, and I
helped make sure they had a balance so it wasn't all milk-based, and there was
protein, and juice. I never made them eat anything, I didn't prevent anything.
I helped them feel comfortable and get nourishment. It was an exceptional
time, and I was their partner.
Sandra
<< Then we have my son. Fresh fruits, juices, dairy, and whole grains
are his trouble, mainly.(so everything I would want the children to
eat) Because of his intestinal disorder he can get impacted or go
to the opposite end of the spectrum and have watery stools very
easily by not eating a good balance. >>
But he doesn't WANT that to happen, right?
(And watery stools are NOT life threatening in any way, and they're better
than getting impacted.)
Shouldn't he learn now to make good choices for himself? If he eats only
what he's allowed to eat by his mom, when he's older won't he reward his freedom
by eating what he has been denied?
-=-Baically he can't have his
favorites all the time; chocolate milk, pineapple, mandarin oranges,
cheese. -=-
Nobody has anything all the time.
-=-He's also alergic to crustations. -=-
I've never known ANY family, not even fishermen, to have crustaceons in the
house all the time.
-=-It's because of these restrictions that it would make it very hard
to only have food choices in the house that would be good for all. -=-
It sounds like a good opportunity to help them figure out how much is too
much, and what needs to be added to make up for having had a favorite. If
someone's eating a lot of meat and cheese, they might really NEED lettuce or oranges
or raisens or plums or apples to balance that. ANYone. That's not a
disorder, to need a variety and a balance of foods.
-= put limits on it. That way they are not deprived...-=-
If the want something and a limit has been put on it, how is that "not
deprived"?
I'm just being picky because it helps a lot for moms to be really clear in
their reasons and their thinking even at home in private. And on the list, it
helps for writers to be really clear to say what they meant to say.
-=-That way they are not deprived, but don't go overboard anymore.-=-
Why did they "go overboard" before?
Were they fresh from limits and they gorged and frolicked when the limits
were lifted?
Were they eating on their own without you making food for them or helping
them get good ideas about balance?
My kids have never "gone overboard" and so I'm curious as to what might cause
it in kids who have.
If kids have a life-threatening condition and have to have their foods
specially measured, prepared, or whatever, that's completely understandable and it's
an exception to the ideas being presented here. People often write here
about music and movies and really looking at things. Of course, if someone has a
child who's blind or deaf, those suggestions won't work (though the
principles behind them would, which is give them access to as much input as you can,
because the'll learn from all of it and make their own connections).
Marty and Kirby could only eat liquid food when they had their wisdom teeth
out a week and a half ago. They were on liquid-to-soft food for DAYS, and I
helped make sure they had a balance so it wasn't all milk-based, and there was
protein, and juice. I never made them eat anything, I didn't prevent anything.
I helped them feel comfortable and get nourishment. It was an exceptional
time, and I was their partner.
Sandra
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
They can from Mack trucks and eating things they're allergic to and
cliffs and
parking lots.
-=-=-=-=-
And, well, there's just riding IN Mack trucks (really cool---and HIGH!)
and hang-gliding off cliffs (still dangerous, but exciting). Empty
parking lots are a great place to run and skate and learn to drive a
car.
So even those things, in and of themselves, are NOT necessarily
dangerous.
~Kelly
From: Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
They can from Mack trucks and eating things they're allergic to and
cliffs and
parking lots.
-=-=-=-=-
And, well, there's just riding IN Mack trucks (really cool---and HIGH!)
and hang-gliding off cliffs (still dangerous, but exciting). Empty
parking lots are a great place to run and skate and learn to drive a
car.
So even those things, in and of themselves, are NOT necessarily
dangerous.
~Kelly
Roslynn
> Nobody has anything all the time.I beg to differ, I ate potatoes for a year. Nothing else. Fried,
>
boiled, chips, baked, I figured that if it's what I had a taste for
that meant my body needed it. I where as I was anemic before I
became severly anemic. It wasn't a good choice.
> I'm just being picky because it helps a lot for moms to be reallyclear in
> their reasons and their thinking even at home in private. And onthe list, it
> helps for writers to be really clear to say what they meant to say.Sorry, I attend college full time and work outside the home as well
>
as have an at home business and run a homeschooling group. I don't
have time to be any more clear. It's all I can do to get my house
clean and try and try to get a bit of down time for myself.
Roslynn
Roslynn
and have watery stools very
drink water he doesn't get enough liquids a day. Although I let him
drink as much pop, kool aid, etc. He doesn't get enough (he might
drink like 20 oz in a day)so when he gets watery stools he get
severly dehydrated. Then his body reacts and he get impacted easier.
He understands the concept, but for him, the hope that it won't
happen again is strong and the craving to eat what he wants is
strong. How do you tell a child you shouldn't have pudding because
you choose milk today? You shouldn't have pasta because you had
bread today?
we have discussed this is what you need because you had *this*
today. He will learn by the example that I have lead him to.
unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure out how to
survive. Today, I usually make bad food choice. not because sweets
were held back, or because I didn't get enough mc. donalds when I
wanted it, but because I have a taste for it. I don't care that I
was so tired today because I forgot to eat yesterday. I just eat
another snickers and I perk right up. Is it logical? no. Should I
do that to my body? no. Does it make me feel good? no. But it
tastes good and that's the way I have always eaten. I want my kids
to have choices within the limits that I know their bodies need and
when they are older they will have that pattern set into them that
they know they feel like crap so they better do something about it.
>they're better
> easily by not eating a good balance. >>
>
> But he doesn't WANT that to happen, right?
> (And watery stools are NOT life threatening in any way, and
> than getting impacted.)I would say it is life threatening to him. Since he refuses to
drink water he doesn't get enough liquids a day. Although I let him
drink as much pop, kool aid, etc. He doesn't get enough (he might
drink like 20 oz in a day)so when he gets watery stools he get
severly dehydrated. Then his body reacts and he get impacted easier.
He understands the concept, but for him, the hope that it won't
happen again is strong and the craving to eat what he wants is
strong. How do you tell a child you shouldn't have pudding because
you choose milk today? You shouldn't have pasta because you had
bread today?
>eats only
> Shouldn't he learn now to make good choices for himself? If he
> what he's allowed to eat by his mom, when he's older won't hereward his freedom
> by eating what he has been denied?No by then he will have learned what he can and can not eat because
we have discussed this is what you need because you had *this*
today. He will learn by the example that I have lead him to.
>I grew up eating what I wanted when I wanted. I was the most
>
unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure out how to
survive. Today, I usually make bad food choice. not because sweets
were held back, or because I didn't get enough mc. donalds when I
wanted it, but because I have a taste for it. I don't care that I
was so tired today because I forgot to eat yesterday. I just eat
another snickers and I perk right up. Is it logical? no. Should I
do that to my body? no. Does it make me feel good? no. But it
tastes good and that's the way I have always eaten. I want my kids
to have choices within the limits that I know their bodies need and
when they are older they will have that pattern set into them that
they know they feel like crap so they better do something about it.
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 11:26:37 AM Mountain Standard Time,
rroseacademy@... writes:
I beg to differ, I ate potatoes for a year. Nothing else.
I---------------
I seriously doubt this could begin to be true.
No bread? No salt, onions, ketchup or Miracle Whip?
No butter or sour cream?
Never cheese or dip?
Never ate out and had lettuce and tomatoes on a burger?
365 days, nothing but potatoes?
-=-Sorry, I attend college full time and work outside the home as well
as have an at home business and run a homeschooling group. I don't
have time to be any more clear. It's all I can do to get my house
clean and try and try to get a bit of down time for myself.-=-
****I don't have time to be any more clear. ***
I don't have time to be any more clear.
Being stunned that you have written and posted "I don't have time to be any
more clear, and in light of the fact that your writing isn't likely to help
others understand unschooling, I'd like to ask (as a moderator and one of the
list owners) that you refrain altogether from posting UNTIL you get time to
write clearly and with the list-posting guidelines in mind, then.
If you don't have time to write clearly, don't write.
If you do write, don't post it to 1600 people.
-=--=-Sorry, I attend college full time and work outside the home as well
as have an at home business and run a homeschooling group. I don't
have time to be any more clear. It's all I can do to get my house
clean and try and try to get a bit of down time for myself.-=--=-
You didn't mention your children in that.
Maybe you should spend more time with your children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rroseacademy@... writes:
I beg to differ, I ate potatoes for a year. Nothing else.
I---------------
I seriously doubt this could begin to be true.
No bread? No salt, onions, ketchup or Miracle Whip?
No butter or sour cream?
Never cheese or dip?
Never ate out and had lettuce and tomatoes on a burger?
365 days, nothing but potatoes?
-=-Sorry, I attend college full time and work outside the home as well
as have an at home business and run a homeschooling group. I don't
have time to be any more clear. It's all I can do to get my house
clean and try and try to get a bit of down time for myself.-=-
****I don't have time to be any more clear. ***
I don't have time to be any more clear.
Being stunned that you have written and posted "I don't have time to be any
more clear, and in light of the fact that your writing isn't likely to help
others understand unschooling, I'd like to ask (as a moderator and one of the
list owners) that you refrain altogether from posting UNTIL you get time to
write clearly and with the list-posting guidelines in mind, then.
If you don't have time to write clearly, don't write.
If you do write, don't post it to 1600 people.
-=--=-Sorry, I attend college full time and work outside the home as well
as have an at home business and run a homeschooling group. I don't
have time to be any more clear. It's all I can do to get my house
clean and try and try to get a bit of down time for myself.-=--=-
You didn't mention your children in that.
Maybe you should spend more time with your children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>>>I would say it is life threatening to him. Since he refuses todrink water he doesn't get enough liquids a day.>>>>>>>>
Does this child have a medically diagnosed disorder such as Celiac Sprue?
How can you *know* how much water he needs in a day? Many foods contain a large amount of water but we don't notice because they appear solid.
Have you tried different kinds of water? Water filters? Various bottled waters? Does he want it colder? More room temperature? Some water just doesn't taste good. I drink more water when it tastes good to me.
Do you say these things in front of him? i.e. "He never drinks enough water." "You only drinks kook-aid." If so, he probably is internalizing these ideas as part of who he is.
>>>>>>I was the mostunschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
growing up in an abusive household.>>>>>>>>>
That is NEGLECT and ABUSE not unschooling.
>>>>>>>>> Today, I usually make bad food choice.>>>>>>>>I don't think you can help your children eat well if you haven't figured out how to eat well for your own body.
I don't mean adults should never make poor food choices. But if you truly think that you don't eat right, even knowing how *you* think *you should* eat, you can't model it for your children.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
> I grew up eating what I wanted when I wanted. I wasIf you think unschooling is about neglect and abuse,
> the most
> unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of
> circumstance of
> growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure
> out how to
> survive.
then you haven't been paying attention. Supplying
kids with unlimitted McDonalds and Snickers, without
information, and letting them fend for themselves to
survive, is not unschooling.
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Dana Matt
> Have you tried different kinds of water? WaterTrue--my 7 yo only drinks RO filtered water,
> filters? Various bottled waters? Does he want it
> colder? More room temperature? Some water just
> doesn't taste good. I drink more water when it
> tastes good to me.
refrigerated, with ice, in an iced pint-sized beer
mug. Nothing else tastes good to him.
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Caprice Erickson
Joyce Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
On Mar 22, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Caprice Erickson wrote:
> Surely I shouldn't just ignore this background and smile cheerfully
> when my dd reaches for cookie number six?
--Anne Ohman asks herself in conflicting situations like this "Who's
gonna die?"
If your daughter is standing in front of a speeding Mack truck is she
gonna die? Very likely! It's best to grab her out of the way!
If your daughter eats cookie number 6 will she die? No, and she doesn't
want to be rescued from cookie number 6.--
That certainlly puts things in perspective. :)
--Will she eat 6 cookies everyday? Very unlikely. But one way you could
"help" her eat 6 cookies a day is by sending the message that 5 is a
limit she shouldn't cross.--
<snipped a lot of good stuff about setting limits>
I see what you mean. My concern, however, is not weather or not to set limits. It is about if I should talk to her about what I have researched and observed about nutrition. I realize that it would be easy to fall into the trap of "sending messages" about what she should or shouldn't eat and therefore hamper any actual freedom.
> I have researched nutrition and drawn on my own experiences to reach
> these opinions.
--What if your husband started reading extensively about food and came to
different conclusions about what was healthy? What if you could feel
his eyes on you as you made choices about what to eat and you knew he
was judging you by his standards? What if he gave you a running
commentary on what was good to eat as you were about to bite into
something to "help" you eat better? How would you feel about him and
about his food beliefs?--
Actually my husband has done something similar to this and I didn't like it at all. I definitely want to avoid this with my children.
--It's really irritating living with experts who know how we should live
better than we do ;-)
What we model and the choices we make for ourselves is far more likely
to pass onto our kids than us micromanaging the choices they make.
Make nutritious meals and snacks. Have nutritious food on hand. Make
nutritious choices for yourself. When a question comes up tell her why
you're making a particular choice for yourself. But let her make her
own choices. If she wants a specific something from the store, put it
on the list. if she wants to try some new fun snacky food, get it for
her. She will learn far more about the world by having the freedom to
experiment than she will by memorizing what you say is true.
If we say "This is what I believe," it gives us room to be wrong. If we
say "This is what is right," our credibility goes down if we're wrong!
;-) And our kids are less likely to trust the next so called truth
from us. And since the "truth" about nutrition seems to change yearly,
getting too specific about what's right and wrong to eat is putting
your credibility on borrowed time ;-)--
I completely agree with what you are saying about credibility. I do try to always be aware that what seems to be "true" today may turn out to be way off base.
I guess what it comes down to is this; share what I believe about nutrition when she brings it up - not when I think she needs the benefit of my 'superior wisdom'.
Caprice
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
Argh, it amazes me how long it takes sometimes for me to see what the
kids like and then go out of my way to get it for them! Still lots of
deschooling etc. to do to think about ways to cater--no, indulge--no,
damn it just have fun with kids instead of seeing them as burdens.
Not that I ever actually thought that, but the attitude is everywhere
and I have to be vigilant not to let it slip in...
They would stand outside in the snow eating handful after handful of
it, so why don't I offer various kinds of ice and maybe get a snow
cone maker or some form of ice crusher?? That would be so much more
fun than worrying about water vs. juice consumption or any such
thoughts.
Regular popsicles are very popular, but have been tough to deal with
in the living room--we have a silly light colored carpet (we'll be
moving this summer, thank goodness) with a 2 and 4 yr old, so I think
I'll go fill the popsicle maker thingie with just water so they can
have 'frozen water on a stick' in the living room whenever they want!
--aj, happy to be here having her brain pried open, however slowly
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
kids like and then go out of my way to get it for them! Still lots of
deschooling etc. to do to think about ways to cater--no, indulge--no,
damn it just have fun with kids instead of seeing them as burdens.
Not that I ever actually thought that, but the attitude is everywhere
and I have to be vigilant not to let it slip in...
They would stand outside in the snow eating handful after handful of
it, so why don't I offer various kinds of ice and maybe get a snow
cone maker or some form of ice crusher?? That would be so much more
fun than worrying about water vs. juice consumption or any such
thoughts.
Regular popsicles are very popular, but have been tough to deal with
in the living room--we have a silly light colored carpet (we'll be
moving this summer, thank goodness) with a 2 and 4 yr old, so I think
I'll go fill the popsicle maker thingie with just water so they can
have 'frozen water on a stick' in the living room whenever they want!
--aj, happy to be here having her brain pried open, however slowly
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
>
> > Have you tried different kinds of water? Water
> > filters? Various bottled waters? Does he want it
> > colder? More room temperature? Some water just
> > doesn't taste good. I drink more water when it
> > tastes good to me.
>
> True--my 7 yo only drinks RO filtered water,
> refrigerated, with ice, in an iced pint-sized beer
> mug. Nothing else tastes good to him.
>
> Dana
Jackie Chovanes
On Mar 24, 2005, at 2:55 PM, mamaaj2000 wrote:
(from clean snow! lol). I put them into bowls and then drizzle frozen
juice concentrate (thawed, but not diluted) over it, and there you go,
instant, relatively healthy snow cones :-).
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
> They would stand outside in the snow eating handful after handful ofMy kids favorite winter treat is to go outside and make a big snowball
> it, so why don't I offer various kinds of ice and maybe get a snow
> cone maker or some form of ice crusher?? That would be so much more
> fun than worrying about water vs. juice consumption or any such
> thoughts.
(from clean snow! lol). I put them into bowls and then drizzle frozen
juice concentrate (thawed, but not diluted) over it, and there you go,
instant, relatively healthy snow cones :-).
Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 12:33:59 PM Central Standard Time,
rroseacademy@... writes:
would say it is life threatening to him. Since he refuses to
drink water he doesn't get enough liquids a day. Although I let him
drink as much pop, kool aid, etc. He doesn't get enough (he might
drink like 20 oz in a day)so when he gets watery stools he get
severly dehydrated. Then his body reacts and he get impacted easier.
~~~
We get enough water from our food, and if he's drinking pop and kool aid,
he's getting enough there, too. The 8-8 oz glasses of water a day has been
debunked:
(http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-08/dms-al080802.php)
He found no scientific studies in support of 8 x 8. Rather, surveys of fluid
intake on healthy adults of both genders, published as peer-reviewed
documents, strongly suggest that such large amounts are not needed. His conclusion is
supported by published studies showing that caffeinated drinks, such as most
coffee, tea and soft drinks, may indeed be counted toward the daily total.
He also points to the quantity of published experiments that attest to the
capability of the human body for maintaining proper water balance. <<
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rroseacademy@... writes:
would say it is life threatening to him. Since he refuses to
drink water he doesn't get enough liquids a day. Although I let him
drink as much pop, kool aid, etc. He doesn't get enough (he might
drink like 20 oz in a day)so when he gets watery stools he get
severly dehydrated. Then his body reacts and he get impacted easier.
~~~
We get enough water from our food, and if he's drinking pop and kool aid,
he's getting enough there, too. The 8-8 oz glasses of water a day has been
debunked:
>>_http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-08/dms-al080802.php_
(http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-08/dms-al080802.php)
He found no scientific studies in support of 8 x 8. Rather, surveys of fluid
intake on healthy adults of both genders, published as peer-reviewed
documents, strongly suggest that such large amounts are not needed. His conclusion is
supported by published studies showing that caffeinated drinks, such as most
coffee, tea and soft drinks, may indeed be counted toward the daily total.
He also points to the quantity of published experiments that attest to the
capability of the human body for maintaining proper water balance. <<
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 12:33:59 PM Central Standard Time,
rroseacademy@... writes:
I grew up eating what I wanted when I wanted. I was the most
unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure out how to
survive.
~~~
no no no, that's not unschooling. That's surviving. You had no partners,
like unschooled children do. You had no peace. Not unschooling, at all.
Your needs were not met. There's no comparison.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rroseacademy@... writes:
I grew up eating what I wanted when I wanted. I was the most
unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure out how to
survive.
~~~
no no no, that's not unschooling. That's surviving. You had no partners,
like unschooled children do. You had no peace. Not unschooling, at all.
Your needs were not met. There's no comparison.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 1:00:07 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:
Still lots of
deschooling etc. to do to think about ways to cater--no, indulge--no,
damn it just have fun with kids instead of seeing them as burdens.
-------------
SEE how important words are?
Even just the words we use in our own thoughts can change our attitude and
biochemistry when we're thinking about what we're doing and why we're doing it.
You want to think about ways to enrich your children, ways to enable them to
be their best and their happiest selves.
If you think of it is catering to or indulging or bowing down to or spoiling
or being a servant of a short-order cook or a doormat or a martyr, in the
space of SECONDS you can feel like crap and not being too happy with your
choices.
If you see it as opening the world up as a giant gift for them and
maintaining and ensuring and providing and amusing and facilitating, then in the same
few seconds you can feel BIG and wonderful and invaluable.
There's a word from the Simpsons you can use when you think of your own
attitude and of what you're doing for your children:
"embiggen"
You are embiggening them, and that will embiggen you.
I went to look for the dialog to cut and paste, and didn't find it but I did
find that in Minneapollis there's a Shakespeare troupe called The Cromulent
Shakespeare Company,and their motto is "Embiggen the Bard."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000@... writes:
Still lots of
deschooling etc. to do to think about ways to cater--no, indulge--no,
damn it just have fun with kids instead of seeing them as burdens.
-------------
SEE how important words are?
Even just the words we use in our own thoughts can change our attitude and
biochemistry when we're thinking about what we're doing and why we're doing it.
You want to think about ways to enrich your children, ways to enable them to
be their best and their happiest selves.
If you think of it is catering to or indulging or bowing down to or spoiling
or being a servant of a short-order cook or a doormat or a martyr, in the
space of SECONDS you can feel like crap and not being too happy with your
choices.
If you see it as opening the world up as a giant gift for them and
maintaining and ensuring and providing and amusing and facilitating, then in the same
few seconds you can feel BIG and wonderful and invaluable.
There's a word from the Simpsons you can use when you think of your own
attitude and of what you're doing for your children:
"embiggen"
You are embiggening them, and that will embiggen you.
I went to look for the dialog to cut and paste, and didn't find it but I did
find that in Minneapollis there's a Shakespeare troupe called The Cromulent
Shakespeare Company,and their motto is "Embiggen the Bard."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/24/2005 11:34:07 AM Mountain Standard Time,
rroseacademy@... writes:
How do you tell a child you shouldn't have pudding because
you choose milk today? You shouldn't have pasta because you had
bread today?
I don't.
If a kid gets constipated, there are foods to counteract that.
If a kid gets the runs, there are foods to counteract that.
In serious cases, there are over-the-counter pills and drinks to counteract
either of those.
The damage from parental control can be worse than the discomfort of being
'irregular.'
I heard tell of one homeschooling family and the kids were BIG, already, not
babies and not toddlers, and the mother expected a bowel movement about the
same time every day and LOOKED and "treated" the child if it wasn't on time.
That is unhealthy twelves ways.
-=-He understands the concept, but for him, the hope that it won't
happen again is strong and the craving to eat what he wants is
strong. -=-
Your craving to control him seems stronger.
Not better, and not healthy, but strong.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rroseacademy@... writes:
How do you tell a child you shouldn't have pudding because
you choose milk today? You shouldn't have pasta because you had
bread today?
I don't.
If a kid gets constipated, there are foods to counteract that.
If a kid gets the runs, there are foods to counteract that.
In serious cases, there are over-the-counter pills and drinks to counteract
either of those.
The damage from parental control can be worse than the discomfort of being
'irregular.'
I heard tell of one homeschooling family and the kids were BIG, already, not
babies and not toddlers, and the mother expected a bowel movement about the
same time every day and LOOKED and "treated" the child if it wasn't on time.
That is unhealthy twelves ways.
-=-He understands the concept, but for him, the hope that it won't
happen again is strong and the craving to eat what he wants is
strong. -=-
Your craving to control him seems stronger.
Not better, and not healthy, but strong.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 24, 2005, at 1:18 PM, Roslynn wrote:
insists you can say, Why don't you try it and see what happens?"
I wish I had a new example because this one's getting a little tired
;-) but if my daughter said "I don't want to go to class today," and I
knee-jerk say "You've got to," then she really doesn't want to go. If I
catch myself and say "Sorry, of course we don't have to go," then more
often than not she decides to go.
When kids protest a sensible choice we've made for them it's often not
the choice they're fighting against but the right to have a choice to
make.
From what you've written it sounds like you've gotten into a power
struggle with each other. It's no longer about food choice but about
being able to choose. You're seeing him testing his limits and making
"wrong" choices so you cut off his ability to choose. And he's saying
"By Gosh, by golly I'm going to fight for the right to be able to make
my own choices even if it's a really lousy choice I'm fighting for!"
you're around and when you aren't he'll sneak and make the choices you
don't allow him. When we become a roadblock, the options we're giving
them are give up or go around or sneak around.
child's partner is to the far right. Neglect is polar opposite of
unschooling.
Joyce
> How do you tell a child you shouldn't have pudding becauseHow about "Remember you had some milk already today." Then if he
> you choose milk today? You shouldn't have pasta because you had
> bread today?
insists you can say, Why don't you try it and see what happens?"
I wish I had a new example because this one's getting a little tired
;-) but if my daughter said "I don't want to go to class today," and I
knee-jerk say "You've got to," then she really doesn't want to go. If I
catch myself and say "Sorry, of course we don't have to go," then more
often than not she decides to go.
When kids protest a sensible choice we've made for them it's often not
the choice they're fighting against but the right to have a choice to
make.
From what you've written it sounds like you've gotten into a power
struggle with each other. It's no longer about food choice but about
being able to choose. You're seeing him testing his limits and making
"wrong" choices so you cut off his ability to choose. And he's saying
"By Gosh, by golly I'm going to fight for the right to be able to make
my own choices even if it's a really lousy choice I'm fighting for!"
> No by then he will have learned what he can and can not eat becausePerhaps. Or perhaps he'll make the choices you want him to make when
> we have discussed this is what you need because you had *this*
> today. He will learn by the example that I have lead him to.
you're around and when you aren't he'll sneak and make the choices you
don't allow him. When we become a roadblock, the options we're giving
them are give up or go around or sneak around.
> I was the mostNo. If control is in the middle, neglect is to the far left and being a
> unschooled child you ever saw, simply because of circumstance of
> growing up in an abusive household. I had to figure out how to
> survive.
child's partner is to the far right. Neglect is polar opposite of
unschooling.
Joyce