MomtoLJ

I was thinking about this past thread, I think on this list...

Many kids, lucky kids, are taught by their parents to show respect in a
multitude of ways. They show it with body language, with tone, with eye
contact, with words, they don't need to use yes ma'm.

However, there are children out there who have not had that upbringing.
To them, learning to use "yes ma'm" (or sir) is huge. It's not really
about respect, but instead it's a cue, a hint, that helps them get into
the mode...oh, this is authority, I need to respect that, to show that
respect with my body, my tone, my eye contact. This concept has to be
taught to these poverty kids, it's not taught at home, and in most cases
it's a more valuable skill than reading or math. I have students who
don't know when to stop arguing, stop talking. I can cue them into
saying "yes ma'm" and this can make the difference. Kids get shot,
jailed, because they don't know how to show respect, and these simple
words can really help...

For many of our kids, they are an extra. For some kids, they are vital.

Joylyn

cslkll

I saw on CNN this morning that a girl got scalped for showing
disrespect towards women. I didn't hear the whole story so I
don't know who did that to her. But who is anyone to judge how
someone else is respectful or not?

My 7 yo dd was the one who didn't say "yes ma'm" to her horse
trainer and the trainer had "never been so disrespected." Oh,
but my dd was so respected by being called names by her?

Maybe the simple words can really help in some situations,
as you said. It can't
be applied globally to all situations. Had my daughter been
(barf)respectful in the trainer's eyes, I would have been real
worried about her self esteem. It would have been an acceptance
that it's ok for her to be called names. That could lead to a life
long acceptance of abuse. It wouldn't be OK for her future husband
to call her names, etc. The "disrespected-ness" that the trainer
felt, I am sure, is really more just being embarassed because she
was outclassed by a 7 yo girl. That is the way dh and I see it.

Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and take the road
less traveled. I am glad my dd did. Sometimes instead of saying
"yes ma'm", it is a necessity to say "no, I don't agree with you"
and walk away. Now let's talk about freedom of speech ;0) krista





--- In [email protected], MomtoLJ <joylyn1@c...>
wrote:
>
> I was thinking about this past thread, I think on this list...
>
> Many kids, lucky kids, are taught by their parents to show respect
in a
> multitude of ways. They show it with body language, with tone,
with eye
> contact, with words, they don't need to use yes ma'm.
>
> However, there are children out there who have not had that
upbringing.
> To them, learning to use "yes ma'm" (or sir) is huge. It's not
really
> about respect, but instead it's a cue, a hint, that helps them get
into
> the mode...oh, this is authority, I need to respect that, to show
that
> respect with my body, my tone, my eye contact. This concept has
to be
> taught to these poverty kids, it's not taught at home, and in most
cases
> it's a more valuable skill than reading or math. I have students
who
> don't know when to stop arguing, stop talking. I can cue them
into
> saying "yes ma'm" and this can make the difference. Kids get
shot,
> jailed, because they don't know how to show respect, and these
simple
> words can really help...
>
> For many of our kids, they are an extra. For some kids, they are
vital.
>
> Joylyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/9/05 9:05:00 AM, joylyn1@... writes:

<< Many kids, lucky kids, are taught by their parents to show respect in a

multitude of ways. They show it with body language, with tone, with eye

contact, with words, they don't need to use yes ma'm. >>

Howard Gardner says interpersonal skills are an intelligence as distinct as
musical, mathematical, verbal or mathematical intelligence. Some parents
could not begin to teach their children a thin about tone or body language. Some
kids are born knowing.

-=-This concept has to be

taught to these poverty kids, it's not taught at home,-=-

Do you think they're poor because their parents are disrespectful of other
people and so aren't good at it (naturally? by training?). Do you think
poverty keeps parents from caring about courtesy? Do you think all rich kids have
good manners?

-=- I have students who

don't know when to stop arguing, stop talking. I can cue them into

saying "yes ma'm" and this can make the difference. -=-

I bet that's true. I bet some kids who have no social skills naturally
really like to have a kind of checklist of things they might do to seem more "with
it," and if they can think about why and when and to whom to show deference,
they can maybe start to figure out other social realities.

-=For many of our kids, they are an extra. For some kids, they are vital. -=-

Same with music, dance, sports, math, language...

Sandra

Angela S

My 7 yo dd was the one who didn't say "yes ma'm" to her horse
trainer and the trainer had "never been so disrespected." Oh,
but my dd was so respected by being called names by her?



Did you ever find another barn for her to ride at? Did you ever hear from
the owner?





Angela

game-enthusiast@...



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Penne & Buddies

--- In [email protected], "cslkll" <cslkll@h...>
wrote:
>
> I saw on CNN this morning that a girl got scalped for showing
> disrespect towards women. I didn't hear the whole story so I
> don't know who did that to her. But who is anyone to judge how
> someone else is respectful or not?

Marshall Rosenberg talks about this in his writings on Nonviolent
Communication (NVC) -- very much a wake-up call for me who was
raised not only in the Deep South, but by depression-era parents to
whom the phrases, "Yes, ma'am" and "No, sir," were as natural as
breathing. They expected no less from their offspring.

I never gave it a second thought until I started raising a family of
my own and one of my kids not only left off the niceties during a
phone conversation, but kept repeated "Yeah" and "Uh huh" to every
question until I wondered if my parents were sure this homeschooling
stuff would be their undoing. They never commented on it to me, but
they've always been the type to live and let live -- they raised us
the way they saw fit and our kids are our business. I expect no
less from others.

>
> My 7 yo dd was the one who didn't say "yes ma'm" to her horse
> trainer and the trainer had "never been so disrespected." Oh,
> but my dd was so respected by being called names by her?

As I was saying, Marshall talks about the right/wrong mentality in
his work, and for a Southern gal brought up in a Christian home --
this is a whole new concept to me. Not only in the way that the
trainer treated your daughter, but in the way that dd responded. I
was inclined to agree with you as one who prides herself in
encouraging the kids to be independent thinkers who take no guff
from anybody. Then I came across this passage in an NVC book called
the "Compassionate Classroom" (sounds kinda schoolish, but Marshall
Rosenberg was well-acquainted with John Holt and his work.) It
reminded me of this thread, so I was intrigued to see that it was
right up front when I came looking for it. Here's the excerpt:

-=- For example: A teacher says to a student, "I think you're just
being lazy by not finishing your work." The child replies, "You're
mean!" This defensive response is the only way this child has
learned to deal with the pain of unmet needs for respect and
understanding. His response is not likely to meet his needs; in
fact, the teacher may give him a trip to the principal's office or
something else that addes to his pain. If, instead of name calling,
the child [and/or trainer, as the case may be] has learned to
identify his needs for understanding and respect, he will probably
find ways to respond that are much more satisfying to him and to the
teacher.

If, in the first place, the teacher had been aware of his own needs -
- perhaps to understand what is really going on with this student --
he could have expressed his feelings and needs something like this:

"When I see that your project isn't finished on the day you said it
would be, and I see you working on something else, I'm puzzled. I
would like to understand what stopeed you from completing your first
project?"

When teachers [trainers, parents, etc.] learn to identify their own
needs, they are empowered to act in ways that are satisfying to
them. When teachers learn to identify the needs of their students,
they are empowered to contribute to their well-being. And, whether
teachers realize it or not, the behavior they model to students is
the behavior that students model in relationship to each other. The
result is that when teachers pay attention to the needs of students,
students start paying attention to the needs of each other, and this
is the beginning of a truly cooperative, compassionate learning
environment.

If an entire society of people learned to pay attention to their own
needs as well as the needs of others, we would be on our way to
creating a world that has the potential to work for everyone. [End
excerpt.] -=-

> Maybe the simple words can really help in some situations,
> as you said. It can't
> be applied globally to all situations. Had my daughter been
> (barf)respectful in the trainer's eyes, I would have been real
> worried about her self esteem. It would have been an acceptance
> that it's ok for her to be called names. That could lead to a life
> long acceptance of abuse. It wouldn't be OK for her future husband
> to call her names, etc. The "disrespected-ness" that the trainer
> felt, I am sure, is really more just being embarassed because she
> was outclassed by a 7 yo girl. That is the way dh and I see it.

So, I believe that Marshall would agree that the trainer was
definitely embarrassed, and so was your daughter amongst other
things, like intense frustration and disappointment. Does that
sound right? The whole exchange was what Marshall calls a "tragic
expression of unmet needs."

The trainer doesn't sound like she's up to learning new tricks, but
I could be wrong. The beauty of NVC is that it only takes one
person to make a difference, and the language is very empowering to
people of all ages, from what I've observed (No ma'ams or sirs
required.) As I've said before, I discovered a reference to
Nonviolent Communication in an archived article at Mothering.com and
googled it to find the Center http://www.cnvc.org -- There's a
wealth of information on their website if anyone's interested in
checking it out.
>
> Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and take the road
> less traveled. I am glad my dd did. Sometimes instead of saying
> "yes ma'm", it is a necessity to say "no, I don't agree with you"
> and walk away. Now let's talk about freedom of speech ;0) krista
>
Marshall works with warring factions all over the world, and manages
to show them that it's not really necessary to agree to disagree,
walk away, or even kill somebody to meet their needs. He tells the
story of talking to a group of Palestinian Moslems in a refugee
camp -- they found out he was American and things got a little
heated as you can imagine. There's a surprise ending which shows
the power of words to make a difference in the first chapter of his
book, which is online at http://www.cnvc.org/bookchap.htm

Interestingly enough, we came across the beginnings of this thread
after visiting our local stables for the first time back a couple of
weeks or so. The manager was getting on to a young rider in the
typical fashion, telling her not to kick the horse, to do it
the "right" way, carrying on & on in between wrapping up our
conversation, and finally hollered out, where are your shoes?! The
kid smiled a sheepish grin and rode on in her sock feet and I
realized this one belonged to the manager. She confirmed that it
was her own child ignoring her admonitions. I thought twice about
getting into that kind of situation even before I saw this thread
crop up... I would be very interested to hear what others think
about this compassionate way of interacting with others.

Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
Penne & the Crew

cslkll

--- In [email protected], "Penne & Buddies"
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "cslkll"
<cslkll@h...>
> wrote:
> >
> > this thread
> crop up... I would be very interested to hear what others think
> about this compassionate way of interacting with others.
>
> Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
> Penne & the Crew

cslkll

I think I accidentally sent a blank email...sorry..
my touchpad is touchy sometimes.

Thank you for taking the time to write this out.
I am going to print it out and look into it. It
sounds like something that could be helpful to me :0) thanks!

We have not found another trainer yet, we were gone last
week. We did stop by a stable on vacation though, just
to see the operation. Wow.....what a huge difference in
the way the operation is run compared to what the kids were
doing here. We will be looking into a new trainer. Have
not heard from the barn owner here either, and really don't
want to get into it w/her(we did leave a message). Someone here
said they didn't
know what they were missing before switching barns. I have
a feeling we'll be in for the same revelation :0) I really do
wish I could have the kids train w/whoever you were that said
you're a trainer on this list ;)~kll





--- In [email protected], "Penne & Buddies"
<crrbuddy@y...> wrote:
I saw this thread
> crop up... I would be very interested to hear what others think
> about this compassionate way of interacting with others.
>
> Vayan con Dios, Amigos ~
> Penne & the Crew