PVestin

We have homeschooled "officially" for 5 years. "Unschooling" came naturally to us. I don't like labels becuase you always seem to have to fit into someone else's definition of what that means, but unschooling is the closest thing to waht we do.

About 4 months ago we started getting satellite. Up until then we had no reception, no TV. TV was not another activity that could fill our day. Now we have it and my 6 year old is consumed by it. Because of other things going on right now she is needing to be more independent so I needed certain channels on the TV to not work once in awhile. My issue (and I admit its my issue) for TV being too consuming was solved. She can still watch TV, she can even still watch cartoons, but she cannot watch cartoons all day long because some channels are locked for a few hours. And she does not miss it.

However I have an issue which I cannot find a workable solution for. My oldest almost 11 year old son loves the computer. He has learned alot. He has learned to be critical and sceptical in his thinking, knowing that some game writers take a basis of fact and embellish the truth to make things more dramatic & interesting. He plays a variety of games, but his passion is in role playing, Lords of the Realm, Age of Mythology, and Age of the Empires. I actually have no problem with him playing these games. But he gets cranky, actually more mad at everyone when he has played these games for more than 30 minutes. He also gets upset because he has to share the computer with his sisters, who are entitled to play the computer as much as he. He is hoping to rectify the one problem by building a new computer with his grandfather - FANTASTIC! But still I don't like living with a grumpy pre-adolescent who is angry at the rest of us for some unknown unjustice. We have talked about it, he
insists he is not angry, nor is he being rude or disrespectful, or mean to the rest of us. One cannot get far when one cannot admit there is a problem.

Has anyone else experienced this? A negative mood alteration following computer play? What are some of the ways others have dealt with this?

BTW he has a physical change too - his ears turn red with any electronic play.



Thanks for suggestions

Paula


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Bethann & Daniel Donahue

It's funny you should say that. My son, age 9, gets very irritable when playing video games, computer or otherwise. It's as though he's tuned to a different channel than the rest of us.
He gets a very short fuse with his younger brother.
When he gets that way, I have to set limits.
Both my oldest son & my husband are obsessed with Age of Empires.


----- Original Message -----
From: PVestin
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 5:41 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Computer Irritability



We have homeschooled "officially" for 5 years. "Unschooling" came naturally to us. I don't like labels becuase you always seem to have to fit into someone else's definition of what that means, but unschooling is the closest thing to waht we do.

About 4 months ago we started getting satellite. Up until then we had no reception, no TV. TV was not another activity that could fill our day. Now we have it and my 6 year old is consumed by it. Because of other things going on right now she is needing to be more independent so I needed certain channels on the TV to not work once in awhile. My issue (and I admit its my issue) for TV being too consuming was solved. She can still watch TV, she can even still watch cartoons, but she cannot watch cartoons all day long because some channels are locked for a few hours. And she does not miss it.

However I have an issue which I cannot find a workable solution for. My oldest almost 11 year old son loves the computer. He has learned alot. He has learned to be critical and sceptical in his thinking, knowing that some game writers take a basis of fact and embellish the truth to make things more dramatic & interesting. He plays a variety of games, but his passion is in role playing, Lords of the Realm, Age of Mythology, and Age of the Empires. I actually have no problem with him playing these games. But he gets cranky, actually more mad at everyone when he has played these games for more than 30 minutes. He also gets upset because he has to share the computer with his sisters, who are entitled to play the computer as much as he. He is hoping to rectify the one problem by building a new computer with his grandfather - FANTASTIC! But still I don't like living with a grumpy pre-adolescent who is angry at the rest of us for some unknown unjustice. We have talked about it, he
insists he is not angry, nor is he being rude or disrespectful, or mean to the rest of us. One cannot get far when one cannot admit there is a problem.

Has anyone else experienced this? A negative mood alteration following computer play? What are some of the ways others have dealt with this?

BTW he has a physical change too - his ears turn red with any electronic play.



Thanks for suggestions

Paula


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[email protected]

-=- Because of other things going on right now she is needing to be more independent so I needed certain channels on the TV to not work once in awhile.-=-

Are you lying to her?

What we do with computer time is that whoever is playing can play as long as he or she wants to, and we know whose turn is next. When the first person is done, the second one can have it as long as he or she wants to. Sometimes those turns are two hours, sometimes ten minutes. It's not okay for the person who's next to hover or nag at all. Never has been, since they were pre-readers playing the simplest games with shapes and numbers. It IS okay to negotiate if someone is about to have to leave and need to check e-mail or something.


The result of this policy, after a dozen years, is that people will ask if anyone else needs the computer really quick if they're about to start something long. They're generous about letting others in for short times, and everyone is honest about how long they think they'll be on. We also have more than one computer now, which I highly recommend, but we got along well with it when we only had one, too.

When parents say a child is getting grouchy, on more examination, it often seems that the grouch-determining factor is something like the unhappiness of others, the impatience of others, a time limit, or someone saying "Turn it off and come eat" regardless of where he is in the game or reading or video-watching. Some things don't pause or rewind or save. When parents are generously understanding with children, children can become generously understanding with siblings and parents.

Sandra

Dawn Adams

A negative mood alteration following computer play?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My husband is like thise. I'm like this. It's usually because we're trying
to concentrate on playing and we're in a bit of a different world (like we
would be if reading) and the other person insists on talking to us or
otherwise disturbing us. When you're into gaming you're really into it and
it's annoying as all get out to have people interupting.

As for building the gaming rig...Pick up a copy of the PC Gamer Computer
Building Bible (magazine) and tell your son to hang around in the hardware
forums at gamers.com and pcgamer.com. We'll be building this summer and
before Christmas I didn't know what mobo meant. Now I'm sure we want an AMD
64 3500 cpu on an MSI motherboard with a nForce2 chipset and the mobo's got
to be socket 939. A big no for onboard sound and the PSU will have to be
500W and a brand name. ;)

It really pays to do a lot of research to avoid buying the worng thing, esp.
if he's building a gaming computer that he'll likely want to upgrade
relatively frequently.

Dawn (in NS)

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], PVestin <pvestin@y...> wrote:
>My oldest almost 11 year old son loves the computer. ...But he gets cranky, actually more
mad at everyone when he has played these games for more than 30 minutes.

--

This sounds pretty arbitrary - your assessment. I mean, if you are thinking his grouchiness
is "after 30 minutes," I'm more inclined to find out what it is that is happening once he's
thirty minutes in that creates irritation for him.

Also, I've noticed with my kids that 11-13 is the time of puberty transition and
grouchiness is not that unusual (and the computer, if it is the primary activity will be the
place that the grouchiness shows up because that is the place the child has the biggest
stake).

>>He also gets upset because he has to share the computer with his sisters, who are
entitled to play the computer as much as he.

Brainstorm ways to solve this. Sandra shared one idea. We set it up in our house that kids
can have two hour turns without being interrupted. If no one wants the computer, then
anyone can stay on longer or take a shorter turn. Totally up to the situation. But at least if
you "call" a time, you can have the full time without interruption. We have five kids and two
computers they can use.

>>But still I don't like living with a grumpy pre-adolescent who is angry at the rest of us
for some unknown unjustice.

Find out what the injustice is so that it is known. Don't belittle it. It's real to him.


We have talked about it, he
> insists he is not angry, nor is he being rude or disrespectful, or mean to the rest of us.
One cannot get far when one cannot admit there is a problem.

If he doesn't see that there is a problem, it must be that he feels his cause is just and he is
being mistreated. Can you find out what it is that bugs him so much about the situation
the way things are?

Also, if it is just a "tone of voice" thing, you might try something we use: "Tone!" We call it
out as a light reminder that the tone of voice is a bit shrill and "Can you dial it back for a
minute?" That often works.

>
> Has anyone else experienced this? A negative mood alteration following computer play?
What are some of the ways others have dealt with this?

I hope you don't mind my saying this. I think lots of kids go through negative moods. If he
were reading a lot and having these moods, you'd be more likely to think it was due to
hormones. (A guess)

See if maybe the issues maybe aren't due to computers...

Julie B

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:58 PM, Julie Bogart wrote:

> Brainstorm ways to solve this. Sandra shared one idea. We set it up in
> our house that kids
> can have two hour turns without being interrupted. If no one wants the
> computer, then
> anyone can stay on longer or take a shorter turn.

Mostly the kids just made agreements with each other - "I'll get off
and you can use it now if I can use it tonight for 2 hours without
interuption." But when there was too much demand and they were starting
to argue about it, we all came up with a fairly complicated system -
but it worked great.

We had a kitchen timer near the computer. If the person on the computer
had already been on there for an hour or more, then the other person
could set the timer for 30 minutes. The person on the computer had time
to wrap things up and get off within that 30 minutes. Then the other
person could have a full uninterrupted hour and then after that, the
same thing - if somebody else wanted it, they could set the timer for
30 minutes.

The kids liked this because:
1. They could stay on and long as they wanted if nobody else wanted it
2. They got at LEAST an hour and a half for sure - even if somebody
else wanted it.
3. They never had to get off quickly - always had at least 30 minutes
to wrap up.
4. They never had to wait for hours and hours when they wanted to use
it.


Five people using one computer was hard. We tried it Sandra's way for a
while - but one of us would stay on there for 5 or 6 hours, and that
seemed unreasonably long for somebody else to have to wait, so I'd end
up trying to talk the person on there into getting off. We wanted some
kind of way where everybody felt that they had enough time to really do
something, but nobody felt they would have to wait for hours and hours
to get a turn when they wanted it.

The kids were pretty young then - the real solution was to get more
computers. Now we have 5 computers for five people <G>. Life is good -
because we can all be on our computers at once, we can also ALL be off
of them and available at once - don't always have one person waiting to
get on the computer. Used to be every time we wanted to play games or
something as a whole family, there was one person who took that chance
to get on the computer.

-pam

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 8, 2005, at 2:54 PM, Bethann & Daniel Donahue wrote:

> When he gets that way, I have to set limits.

Can't you help him find a transition activity that defuses him? After
playing video games, take a bath? After playing video games, something
really active like jumping on the trampoline? Etc?

I can get cranky myself if I'm sedentary for too long - even just
sitting reading a book for hours. And I hate that feeling of being out
of synch with the world - if I've been playing a video game and it was
really exciting and I was on edge all the time, then suddenly I'm not
playing - there is a let-down of some sort and I just want people to
leave me alone for a bit so I can unwind and get back into synch. And I
really mean that I feel out of synch - edgy, nervous, tense. I just
have to do something active to sort of re-synch myself - a quick 5
minute walk outdoors will do it, a hot shower will do it, a nice piece
of chocolate will work!

The ideal solution is not really to set limits, but to help the kid (or
me <G>) learn to recognize and deal with - get rid of - our own
crankiness. It really isn't that hard.

-pam


> Both my oldest son & my husband are obsessed with Age of Empires.
>

Fetteroll

on 2/8/05 5:41 PM, PVestin at pvestin@... wrote:

> Now we have it and my 6 year old is consumed by it.

And if she naturally loved books and had been deprived of them for 6 years
she would be reading a lot of books.

> I needed certain
> channels on the TV to not work once in awhile.
> My issue (and I admit its my
> issue) for TV being too consuming was solved. She can still watch TV, she can
> even still watch cartoons, but she cannot watch cartoons all day long because
> some channels are locked for a few hours. And she does not miss it.

Perhaps. Or she's given up because she doesn't feel she has the power to
change things. Kids get like that in school too.

But what you've modeled for her is that when she doesn't like someone else's
behavior it's okay to be dishonest and go behind their backs and control
them to make them behave the way she wants them to. What you are saying to
her is that after 30 plus/minus years on the planet this the pinnacle of
problem solving you've come up with.

How will you react when she learns from your model and uses it on you?

While you said the above "works", it's an idea that when used by someone
else will steer them away from unschooling.

> But he gets cranky, actually more mad at everyone when he has played these
> games for more than 30 minutes.

I think it will help to separate what he's doing from his reaction to it.
What if he were reading or writing a novel and got grumpy after 30 minutes?
I assume you wouldn't want to find ways to limit his reading or writing.
You'd want to find ways to help him not be grumpy or find ways to channel
that grumpiness so it isn't leaking out onto the family.

Have you sat with him while he played so you can see what is going on and
understand more about the games he likes?

If he doesn't want to talk while he's playing maybe you could talk about
what he likes and doesn't like later. Let him share with you. Get to know
who he is.

Someone said if he doesn't think he's being grumpy then he probably feels
justified and I know I'm that way too. When I'm in a bad mood I know I feel
like it's the rest of the world that's just being irritating and if they'd
just stop irritating me then I wouldn't be grumpy ;-) But it won't help me
treat people better by people being grumpy back at me.

I'm an adult and I should know better so if someone helps me be aware of my
grumpiness I should be able to do something about it. Kids need help with
both: in recognizing it and help in dealing with it.

As Pam pointed out, "Tone" can be a big help. Rather than pointing out
grumpiness, point out something that he knows to control that he may not be
aware he's doing. He can still have the freedom to feel grumpy but he can
choose to be nicer.

Joyce

[email protected]

<< My son, age 9, gets very irritable when playing video games, computer or
otherwise. It's as though he's tuned to a different channel than the rest of
us.>>

Why should you all be "tuned to the same channel"?

<<He gets a very short fuse with his younger brother.>>

If the older brother is deeply involved in something fascinating to him, find
something else for the younger brother to do that's also really interesting.
If you let a younger sibling mess up what an older one is painting or reading
or building, you're not being a the best mom you could be to either of the
children. If children are fighting over feeing crowded, moms need to arrange
for them to have more space.


<<When he gets that way, I have to set limits.>>

You choose to set limits. You don't have to. Others have learned how to go
THROUGH a child's interest, and with it, rather than against it, with
surprisingly wonderful results.


<<Both my oldest son & my husband are obsessed with Age of Empires. >>

If you thought of it in a more positive and generous way, you could say they
LOVE Age of Empires, they're fascinated by it, they're learning a lot with it,
that your son and husband are sharing a great interest in Age of Empires.

That way you could come to see it as a good and wonderful thing you're proud
is happening, rather than an irritating obsession.

There are dads who share nothing with their sons. You should be really happy
that they have a shared joy.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/8/05 7:59:39 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< We had a kitchen timer near the computer. If the person on the computer
had already been on there for an hour or more, then the other person
could set the timer for 30 minutes. The person on the computer had time
to wrap things up and get off within that 30 minutes. Then the other
person could have a full uninterrupted hour and then after that, the
same thing - if somebody else wanted it, they could set the timer for
30 minutes.

The kids liked this because:
1. They could stay on and long as they wanted if nobody else wanted it
2. They got at LEAST an hour and a half for sure - even if somebody
else wanted it.
3. They never had to get off quickly - always had at least 30 minutes
to wrap up.
4. They never had to wait for hours and hours when they wanted to use
it.
>>

That seems like a good plan. We never had more than three who really wanted
it at once, because Keith used the computer at work and Holly rarely wanted on
until the past few years and by then Kirby had his own computer.

I just hate it when a mother says to a child about ANY activity "Stop NOW" or
"Turn it off right now." It would be like throwing a novel in the fire when
someone was in the middle of an exciting paragraph. I've heard and read of
moms turning off a TV show right in mid word, of forcing a kid to turn of a
video game at a place where the progress couldn't be saved, etc. It will make
the children despise the mother if they're smart, and if they're already too
beat down to bother, it will make them less interested in hoping for fairness
or joy.

Sandra

PVestin

First I want to thank some of you for your thoughtful comments on tactics that have helped you. I also appreciate those that shared what they personally feel when role-playing and the transition they need to go through. I also appreciate that some of you are going through the same thing in your family.

I do need to clarify a few things - as far as my 6 year old watching TV - she knows the channels are locked, that I did it, and they will come back on. She would complain at night that she did not do everything she wanted to do, I pointed out to her that she watched TV most of the day and thats where her time went, she agreed and asked for my help, the locking out the addicting channels was how I helped. And she had only been without TV for one year, but she had plenty of access to videos. I have not lied to her. I do admit I do not like TV taking up so much of her life, she thinks her TV viewing was fine, she just didn't have enough time to do everything she wanted and she was not able to stop watching on her own.

Alot of assumptions were made in a very short summary of what I wrote.

As far as my son & the computer -
I don't have a problem with the games he is playing, I don't have a problem with his computer usage (as long as others alos get their time.) I do have a problem with his behavior afterwards. I don't care what the activity is that precedes it, the rest of us deserve to be treated civilly. Neither I nor anyone else in the family made him leave the computer because he needed to use the bathroom, we didn't suggest or force him to sign-up for basketball, what have you. The grumpiness is there wether he stops on his own or because something has forced his stopping.

I have played with him. One game in particular I've played with him many times. Over Christmas while my husband was on vacation 5 of us played a multi-player game that lasted weeks, and that wasn't the first time we've done that. I do not know why, but he did not get grumpy when it wasn't his turn, turns lasted 5-15 minutes each, so it could be up to an hour between turns, and we did other things as well as play the game.

Now it would be fine to play with him more frequently, unfortunately at this time in my life I cannot sit for hours and do this with him. Those of you who can great - I can't. I know enough about the games & history that when he comes to me and tells me about a great discovery or weapon, or whatever I know what he is talking about and can share in the joy and he can relay the experience to me. I do know who he is.

I was wondering, and I guess I did not ask it outright enough, but does anyone else deal with the phenomena of computer play bringing on irritabilty. I appreciate those of you who answered. From your replies I guess the answer is yes, some of you are familiar with this.

Thanks again to those of you who replied with helpful suggestions. I definitely can appreciate that he may need some transition time.

Paula




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julie w

Dawn Adams wrote:

> As for building the gaming rig...Pick up a copy of the PC Gamer Computer
> Building Bible (magazine) and tell your son to hang around in the hardware
> forums at gamers.com and pcgamer.com. We'll be building this summer and
> before Christmas I didn't know what mobo meant. Now I'm sure we want
> an AMD
> 64 3500 cpu on an MSI motherboard with a nForce2 chipset and the
> mobo's got
> to be socket 939. A big no for onboard sound and the PSU will have to be
> 500W and a brand name. ;)
>
> It really pays to do a lot of research to avoid buying the worng
> thing, esp.
> if he's building a gaming computer that he'll likely want to upgrade
> relatively frequently.

Hey Dawn
I need to add an internal HD to ds's computer. Any pointers?
Reliable/Good brand?
All I know is it can't be SATA.
I don't want to spend tons, so I'm looking at adding 60 or 80GB, and
needs to work with Win XP.
I'd ask the guy who sold this to me, but his wife is very ill at the
moment and they have small kids....
Thanks for any info.
Julei



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Pamale Teitelbaum

>
> I just hate it when a mother says to a child about
> ANY activity "Stop NOW" or
> "Turn it off right now." It would be like throwing
> a novel in the fire when
> someone was in the middle of an exciting paragraph.
> I've heard and read of
> moms turning off a TV show right in mid word, of
> forcing a kid to turn of a
> video game at a place where the progress couldn't be
> saved, etc.

Ugh, I hate this too, especially when the mother is
me...I have a big issue with feeling guilty about ever
taking my kids away from activities they are involved
in when we *have to* go somewhere. This isn't daily,
but having this conflict even once (soemtimes its
more) a week seems like a lot to me.

I always try to tell them the day before if we have a
have to be somewhere at a certain time and we talk
about when we will need to leave the house. I tell
them that morning and give them the countdown so to
speak "20 more minutes and then we need to get
dressed, or brush teeth, or put on shoes, or
whatever." I never just say NOW and interrupt
activities unless I've been building up to it for 24
hours (and this doesn't happen a lot) but my kids are
usually very unhappy and disappointed, especially
since the "have to" places are not fun for them and
they (naturally) are the situations where being too
late is not really okay (working at my co-op, doctors
appts, and the like) Babysitting is not always
feasible (financially and in terms of family and
friends, my kids are choosy about who they want to be
left with). I will usually just deal with being 10 or
15 minutes late so a level can be finished or
whatever, but it can get out of control.

This is an area where formerly (esp. when the kids
were in school last year) we used 'setting limits' and
*imposing* structure and since we don't do this
anymore, I'm a bit stumped. Somewhat OT, I know, but
we have been having real problems with this lately.
Strategies, anyone? Thanks.

Pamela
Momma to Aaron (6) and Joshua (8)


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[email protected]

<< I do need to clarify a few things - as far as my 6 year old watching TV -
she knows the channels are locked, that I did it, and they will come back on.
>>

Someone else, then (maybe to make you look bad) posted this:

-=-Because of other things going on right now she is needing to be more
independent so I needed certain channels on the TV to not work once in awhile. -=-

How does making decisions for people make them more independent?
How does your need for certain channels "not to work" translate to her
knowing you have locked the channels?

Honesty is basic to relationships with children, and even in impersonal
situations such as e-mail lists, if information is consistent and clear, things are
better for all involved.

One of the first big disputes I ever saw on any online homeschooling list was
when a mom came in and said that when she didn't want her kids to watch TV
she would unplug the TV, then try to turn it on, pretend to be surprised, and
then tell them she was sorry, but it was broken.

She thought she needed for the TV not to work once in a while.
She needed other things much more, and one was to be honest and another was
to care more about what her daughter wanted than what she, the mom, "needed."

Sandra

Sandra

lite2yu2000

Hey everyone,

I have been lurking for quite a while. . . I used to be a moderator
on this list a few years ago. I just wanted to let everyone know (I
guess I am a proud mom here) about a feature article written about
my daughter in Philadelphia Magazine. She is a 15 year old singer
songwriter, always unschooled, and has a CD out called "Louisiana
Soul" and another one in the works. I am not sure how widely
Philadelphia Magazine is distributed but I know it's on the East
Coast. I am trying to get a PDF of it as well, but probabaly won't
have that until March, if anyone wants it. You can hear clips of her
music on her website at www.leliasmusic.com (hope that is okay to
post). Two of her songs have been featured on Joan of Arcadia and we
are contracting with them to use more. So, that is what I have been
up to in the last couple of years :)

Best,
Mary Broussard

Fetteroll

on 2/9/05 4:11 PM, PVestin at pvestin@... wrote:

> First I want to thank some of you for your thoughtful comments on tactics that
> have helped you.

I think most homeschooling lists, and perhaps even most unschooling lists,
are for trading "tactics" that work. The exchange on those lists aren't
geared toward understanding why something's happening or why something
works. The exchanges are mostly "Here's a bit of our lives," and "Here's
what works for us."

Which suits many people just fine. That's what they like.

But it doesn't suit everyone. So this list fills the needs not met by the
other lists. (And the other lists fill the needs not met by this list!) Some
people love to dig deep and understand why and how unschooling works, why
and how to respect children. That's what this list is about and the people
who need that are who it's oriented towards because the other lists can't
serve their needs.

Because this list is totally different we send out a lengthy description
that will help people understand how the list is different from what they
may expect and a list of rules that will help people get the most from the
list.

Which is why to this:

> I do have a problem with his behavior afterwards. I don't care what the
> activity is that precedes it, the rest of us deserve to be treated civilly.

I will reply that if you don't understand why he's getting irritable, it's
going to be harder to find a solution. Why something is happening is more
important than what is happening. The what is merely a symptom and making
the symptom go away won't make the cause go away. That's why I suggested
playing or being with him so you could get more information on why it's
happening so you could find a better way to help him.

Conventional parenting is about responding to symptoms. Aware parenting --
applying the unschooling philosophy to parenting -- is about helping them
get what they want from life.

> unfortunately at this time in my life I cannot sit for hours and do this with
> him.

You said it only takes half an hour for him to get irritated so you won't be
playing for hours.

> From your replies I guess the answer is yes, some of you are familiar with
> this.

The symptom is familiar to problems other people have experienced. That
doesn't mean it's why it's happening to your son. Irritability *can* be a
way for kids to communicate that they need something from us that they
aren't getting. Often when they're being the most irritating is when they
need to be loved the most. And sometimes it means they're working something
out and need the space to do it. To treat one like the other would not be
helping the child.

But alerting him to a tone is part of the solution too. Helping them get
they want without stepping all over everyone else and alienting everyone is
part of helping them get what they want!

> Alot of assumptions were made in a very short summary of
> what I wrote.

What people write is all anyone has available to form a reply from.

Here's Rule 10:

>> 10. Read and write as clearly as you can. In casual conversation we often
>> don't realize how much we rely on others to fill in the gist of our
>> conversation based on what they expect us to say. But here, without body
>> language or inflection, all we have to go on are your words and they should
>> say what you mean. If you say, for example, you "never" do something, it
>> should not mean "almost never."

> I do need to clarify a few things

Only if you realize that explaining will help someone give you a better
answer. But I don't think you're looking for an answer which is why Rule 4
is:

>> 4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
>> examination, don't post it to the list.

> she agreed and asked for my help, the locking out the addicting channels was
> how I helped.

Maybe what your daughter will learn from this is that if she watches less TV
she can find enough time to do other things.

Maybe what she'll learn is that she can't control herself and needs others
to intervene for her.

The effects of your solution are very much personality based so they aren't
good general practices to help people move towards unschooling.

(And this list is about ideas that will help people move towards
unschooling. The ideas that don't are questioned and examined.)

A better solution that will help someone move towards unschooling is helping
a child figure out ways to get what she wants -- rather than figuring out
how to make the one solution the parent comes up with work.

She and you could brainstorm ideas. She could (with as much help from you as
she would like) try them out. She could assess how well the current solution
is working. She could tweak the current solution or dump it and try another.

That's problem solving that can apply to just about anything she'll face. It
helps her think about problems and think about the consequences and think
about how to fix them.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/05 3:55:21 AM, pamelateitelbaum@... writes:

<< .I have a big issue with feeling guilty about ever
taking my kids away from activities they are involved
in when we *have to* go somewhere. >>

Back up your preparations to shut things down the half hour before, maybe?
If a TV show is on, set it to record when it starts, so they can watch what
they've missed when they get back, if they want. Often saying "We'll record it"
is enough, and they might not even get around to watching it later, but the
feeling of loss was averted.

If it's a video game, you could say "Play something you can turn off easily"
if one wants to play at the last minute.

-=I tell
them that morning and give them the countdown so to
speak "20 more minutes and then we need to get
dressed, or brush teeth, or put on shoes, or
whatever." -=-

I'd say "Get dressed and put your shoes on, and then you can play video games
some more until it's time." Or maybe they can get dressed while the TV's on.

-=-I will usually just deal with being 10 or
15 minutes late so a level can be finished or
whatever, but it can get out of control. -=-

Then I think you're just waiting ten or fifteen minutes too long to get them
going. That seems really simplistic and probably is irritating, but when
there's a pattern you want to break, the only way to do that is to create a new
pattern and see if it works better.

If what you have isn't working, and the not-working is the same way every
time, back up and go a different direction.

Sometimes having something good on the table like pancakes will be a way to
get them all in one place at one time before getting in the car. If one is in
the middle of a game, the others can still eat pancakes until he gets there.
If he totally misses the meal, throw peanut butter between two pancakes and
let him eat it on the way, maybe. But the mom HAS to be flexible and determined
to be happy and supportive, or it's a drag for all involved.

Sandra

Pamale Teitelbaum

> Then I think you're just waiting ten or fifteen
> minutes too long to get them
> going...when there's a pattern you want to break,
the only way to do that is to create a new
> pattern and see if it works better.
>
>Agreed, I like your suggestions of shutting it down
30 minutes before. Just '5 more minutes' goes and
goes and they are so into to their stuff, it breaks my
heart to force them to stop. This is my own guilt,
I'm sure, at *making* them do stuff they don't want
to, but we have to do. Also, taking a break to get
dressed might work. The you-have-to (get dressed)
before-you-get-to- (do whatever) in my mind harks back
to the dark ages in our home before unschooling. But
maybe I'm looking at that too black and white and need
to shift my perspective.


> If what you have isn't working, and the not-working
is the same way every time, back up and go a different
direction.

>yes, and if I were to truly back up, I would end up
in the night before, when my kids usually stay up till
12 or 1AM and then we get a late start as they sleep
till 11, 11:30am. Usually this is fine, but if they
get up at 11 and want to play computer or whatever
before we leave at 1 or 2 or whenever, they go
straight there while I make breakfast and bring it to
them if they want (I might run to a delicious pile o
pancakes, but my kids never would <g>) OFten they play
til we leave; usually when they know they won't get
much time to do so for the rest of the day. I like
the idea of maybe talking a break to get dressed and
brush teeth.

thanks for the great suggestions

pamela
momma to Joshua (8) and Aaron (6)



>





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cslkll

My kids are bored with the computer lately, but really into
their gamecube games. When they become irritable while(or after)
playing these, I try and talk to them about their games. If
it's been hard for them to figure out the game, we talk about
that and how it is fun to have the challenge sometimes. Last
night ds was on the verge of finishing the Metroid game and kept
coming into the room dh and I were in to tell us how excited he
was :) When he finally beat it we all did a victory dance with him.
Maybe your ds is just frustrated. I am not familiar with the
games you mentioned, are there game guides that he can use in
playing those?

I don't know when the change came in our family, but I have noticed
while another kid might be on the computer, another one will ask
them to check an account for them(like the american girls club).
So they found their own solution for being able to check their
accounts when someone else was on.



>
> Has anyone else experienced this? A negative mood alteration
following computer play? What are some of the ways others have
dealt with this?
>
> BTW he has a physical change too - his ears turn red with any
electronic play.
>
>
>
> Thanks for suggestions
>
> Paula
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***Has anyone else experienced this? A negative mood alteration
following computer play?***

Lots of people get irritable when they're under pressure or when they're
disappointed. Moms get irritable when they're rushing to clean up the
house before company comes. People get irritable when their checking
account is overdrawn.

Grown up people who've had plenty of time to learn a better way still
snap at loved ones when things aren't going right. I think it's
unrealistic to expect people with less experience (kids) to be above such
behavior.

***What are some of the ways others have dealt with this?***

I think about the way I handle pressure and disappointment and I try to
change my behavior so that I can be a good example.
I sympathize with people who are stressed or disappointed and I don't
take personally what they say in a moment of frustration.
I try to be understanding and helpful, not critical.

If a parent is disappointed by the behavior of a grouchy kid and gets
irritable she's not modeling the kind of calm thoughtfulness she hopes
her child can achieve.

Deb L

Pam Sorooshian

On Feb 10, 2005, at 5:32 AM, Pamale Teitelbaum wrote:

>> Agreed, I like your suggestions of shutting it down
> 30 minutes before.
> Just '5 more minutes' goes and
> goes and they are so into to their stuff, it breaks my
> heart to force them to stop. This is my own guilt,
> I'm sure, at *making* them do stuff they don't want
> to, but we have to do. Also, taking a break to get
> dressed might work. The you-have-to (get dressed)
> before-you-get-to- (do whatever) in my mind harks back
> to the dark ages in our home before unschooling. But
> maybe I'm looking at that too black and white and need
> to shift my perspective.

I think a lot of this is in your own attitude. What you're remembering
are "commands" about getting dressed before you get to do whatever - is
not the same as, "We're going to have to leave in 30 minutes so to make
things go more smoothly when it is time to go, I suggest you get
dressed now, then go back to playing until it is time to go." Then give
them their clothes - if you put a pair of pants and a shirt and a pair
of socks right into their hands, they'll possibly just get dressed
almost on autopilot. Do you think they LIKE the last-minute pressure
and stress? Nah. So you are a team, working together, to not have to
deal with that and to make life go as smoothly as possible.

-pam

arcarpenter2003

I posted this to the shiningwithunschooling list, but thought it might
help someone here, too:

==In the last week I've heard three different moms say something about
computer games "making" their child either "hyper" or irritable. A
couple of things have occurred to me.

1. When I did limit Fisher's TV (he's 7.5), if he had a day he could
watch it all day, he was pretty grumpt at the end of the day. I
always said this was one reason why I needed to limit it. But when I
did take off the limits, and really made space and time that he could
do all the video things he wanted to, within a few weeks he was
handling it fine. Within a month or two he had taught himself to
watch and play something else and talk.

Video games do take more focus than TV, but perhaps your son just
needs the time and space to learn how to handle the "RAM allocation,"
that is, how to manage his own attention and energy. (We have the
computer set in front of the TV, all near a comfy couch and a table
for toys and Yu-gi-oh cards and snacks. It's in a central, prominent
place of the house.)

2. I wonder if it's more appropriate to separate the "hyper" or
irritability thing from the video games, per say. If I'd been reading
an exciting book, or trying to solve a particularly tricky problem,
I'd be pretty hyper afterwards, too, and wrapped up in thinking about
it, and unresponsive to others trying to talk about other things.

I wonder if helping him with sensory things at that point might be
useful. Giving him a backrub or a good squeeze to help him "get out
of his head" and back into his body (if he agrees, of course). Giving
him an outlet to throw his own body around -- a mini-tramp, some of
the other indoor/"therapeutic" gym equipment that we've talked about
on this list. [Note: That has been the big exercise balls, sling
swings that mount in a doorway, gym mats, a big box/clubhouse that he
can throw himself into.] Fisher really manages this one pretty well --
if I'm not right there, he seeks me out and throws himself at me in
order to get a squeeze, which helps him to get re-centered. ==

Hope that helps!

Peace,
Amy

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/10/2005 11:41:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, "cslkll" <cslkll@...> writes:

>-=- I am not familiar with the
games you mentioned, are there game guides that he can use in
playing those?
-=-

Good idea!!
If there's not a player's guide, there might be online codes or walk-throughs that would help him get past any frustrating spots.

Sandra

Deb Lewis

***I wonder if it's more appropriate to separate the "hyper" or
irritability thing from the video games, per say.***

Right. I think it has less to do with the video game and more to do with
how an individual copes with challenging things.

If a kid was building a radio and was very focused but was running into a
problem the frustration would be the same. The irritability would be the
same kind of feeling that some people experience after working on/having
problems with a really challenging game.

My husband loves old cars and loves working on them but when he's stumped
by some problem he makes his stress and frustration know to those around
him.<g>

It's not the game or the computer it's the challenge and the effort it
takes to overcome the problems within a game in order to move to the next
level and the way a body naturally deals with the stress of that.

When Dylan was preparing for a belt test in Tae Kwon Do he'd work on some
problem kick or poomse. He'd do it over an over again trying to get it
right. If he hadn't yet mastered it, he felt very frustrated after
working for hours and not making any progress. Limiting the time he
worked on Tae Kwon Do wouldn't have helped him pass his belt test and it
wouldn't have helped him perfect his technique.

Deb L

cslkll

what we have been doing for some time now is they
can just pause what their video game is and turn the tv
off(dh is worried about burn-in or whatever :). The
kids really take off well knowing they can come home
to their game already in progress. krista



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/10/05 3:55:21 AM, pamelateitelbaum@y...
writes:
>
> <<
> If it's a video game, you could say "Play something you can turn
off easily"
> if one wants to play at the last minute.
>
> Sandra

Dawn Adams

Julie writes:
> Hey Dawn
> I need to add an internal HD to ds's computer. Any pointers?
> Reliable/Good brand?
> All I know is it can't be SATA.
> I don't want to spend tons, so I'm looking at adding 60 or 80GB, and
> needs to work with Win XP.
> I'd ask the guy who sold this to me, but his wife is very ill at the
> moment and they have small kids....
> Thanks for any info.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm JUST learning so I'm not to sure but heck, let me do a bit of research!
:)
But it can't be SATA because your motherboard is older I take it?

Dawn (in NS)