[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 1:40:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Nisha" <nishamartin@...> writes:

The ma'am thing is just ingrained in
>me. I can't NOT do it. LOL I can't call someone who is considerably
>older than me by just thier first name either. Cultural things. I
>don't "require" my kids to say ma'am and sir, but they seem to do
>it, mostly because they hear it, I think. Same with please and thank
>you. I say them, and I like to hear them, and the kids use them. I
>do have a personal bias against yeah, yep, nah and nope. I just
>don't like how they sound.
>Nisha<<<<

Right. Sandra said to tell Cameron to "just don't". It's not that easy. It's what we DO.

It was drilled into me, but it was simply modelled for my children. They do it because it's polite and considerate and ...well... it works down here.

Y'all've told horror stories about yankees coming down here, but I have a friend who moved to NJ and was SLAPPED repeatedly by a teacher for "sassing"---so it's NOT a one way street!

Because Cameron calls Sandra by her first name (the way she was introduced to him and how he 'knows' her), he *might* not use ma'am with her *as much*. But he more than likely *will* "sir" Keith---and strangers.

Depending on where I am, that ma'am can go a long way---the Southern accent (and mine is NOT that heavy, y'all!!) and ma'aming and sir-ing is considered charming! <g> The "yeahs, yeps, naws, and nopes" don't go nearly as far in ANY part of the country and are definitely considered rude here!

When in Rome,....

I don't think it should be forced on anyone, but I also don't think you should expect a Southerner NOT to use it. And I think someone who moves down here should know what to expect.

Some cultures are more formal---German and Spanish, for instance, both have a familiar and a formal "you"---and as an outsider, you don't start using the familiar until asked to.

So---although as Sandra said---that the SCA doesn't mix up the past with the present, someone coming in from another culture shouldn't be
so unaware of the cultural norms and blatantly disregard them or put them down.

Yes, I realize that it's degrading to children---when forced. But it doesn't have to be.

For the record, I DON'T believe it should be forced on to children---but I DO believe that it can be modeled---and not *just* towards adults, but towards everyone.

~Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/05 9:57:39 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Right. Sandra said to tell Cameron to "just don't". It's not that easy.
It's what we DO. >>

I'll endure it and try to be philosophical, but I will twitch every time
inside.

-=-Because Cameron calls Sandra by her first name (the way she was introduced
to him and how he 'knows' her), he *might* not use ma'am with her *as much*.
But he more than likely *will* "sir" Keith---and strangers.-=-

Texans do it. SE New Mexico does it. Most of my cousins were made to do it
(upon pain of being backhanded or otherwise humiliated, so there's respect for
ya).

My parents both said "yes ma'am" and "yes sir" to the telephone operator, to
anyone they talked to, even after they moved out of Texas. And they were
mousie people to a large extent and I couldn't separate the two things in my
mind. It seemed they really felt inferior to just about everyone around them.

-=-I don't think it should be forced on anyone, but I also don't think you
should expect a Southerner NOT to use it. And I think someone who moves down
here should know what to expect.-=-

It's all true. There are cultural realities.

-=-Some cultures are more formal---German and Spanish, for instance, both
have a familiar and a formal "you"---and as an outsider, you don't start using
the familiar until asked to.-=-

English did too, not so long ago. The formal is what we kept. The familiar
we only keep in prayers to God. And it's been long enough and is foreign
enough to native English speakers, that they assume thee and thou are the formal
(because God's scary in English), but it's the other away around. In languages
in which they're aware that they're speaking to God in buddy terms, not
uber-formal terms, I think it makes a difference in their perception of their
closeness to God.

-=-For the record, I DON'T believe it should be forced on to children---but I
DO believe that it can be modeled---and not *just* towards adults, but
towards everyone.-=-

When I hear people say "sir" or "ma'am" toward children, I cringe, because
I've usually heard it in preparation for some sarcasm or other put-down, in the
context of telling them they're too big for their britches or other cliche
(and as cliche, said without much thought) kid-insults.

-=-So---although as Sandra said---that the SCA doesn't mix up the past with
the present, someone coming in from another culture shouldn't be

so unaware of the cultural norms and blatantly disregard them or put them
down.-=-

I think if people can't adjust, they shouldn't live where that's the norm.

I had a friend 40 years older than I was when I was 21 and she was 63 or so.
It seemed like a LOT more years then than it does now. <g> I never, ever
could call her her first name. I always called her "Mrs. Prather." We were
next door neighbors for a while, and shared a two-room portable classroom
building for a year. And our neighbor at our old neighborhood, who only had one
child far away, we used to check on her and help take care of her and do her erra
nds and repairs a lot. I always called her Mrs. Carter, and nothing else. But
though I loved them and cried when they died, I didn't say "Yes Ma'am," never
once, and they might've been surprised if I had.

I think there's something deeper than just the words.

Kelly, maybe you or Ben know this, about the military. I've heard the army,
especially, is heavily composed of people from the southeastern U.S. A
disproportionate number of southerners. If that's so, do you think there's a
relationship? Or is one the chicken and one the egg?

Sandra

[email protected]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:55:20 -0500 kbcdlovejo@... writes:
> For the record, I DON'T believe it should be forced on to
> children---but I DO believe that it can be modeled---and not *just*
> towards adults, but towards everyone.

I use "Sir" and "Ma'am" sometimes. For me, they're a way to address
someone wheose name I don't know, especially if they're not looking at me
right then. Like, if I'm wanting to ask someone the time, I'll say,
"Excuse me, sir, could you tell me what time it is?" I do think I'm more
likely to use them when I want to make it especially clear that I'm being
respectful of the other person. I don't ever use them when I know the
perrson, though. That sounds odd to me.

Rain uses the words in the same context, I think.

We've only lived in the midwest, southwest, and west-west. Actually, Rain
has only lived in Arizona and California, but I was born in Ohio and
lived in Kansas and Maryland, too. The whole southern thing seems really
foreign to me...
Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 12:27:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd@... writes:>

>>>>I think if people can't adjust, they shouldn't live where that's the norm.  <<<<<

Well, there ya' are! <g>


>>>>>I think there's something deeper than just the words.<<<<

Me too. A LOT deeper!


>>>>>>>Kelly, maybe you or Ben know this, about the military.  I've heard the army, especially, is heavily composed of people from the southeastern U.S.  A disproportionate number of southerners.   If that's so, do you think there's a relationship?  Or is one the chicken and one the egg?<<<<



We've discussed this several times ourselves---and just had another long one just now. Keep in mind that these are our thoughts---and not "truth"---observations and ideas that Ben & I have thrown around a lot!

I believe that, like in Europe, the officers were the ones who owned land, who owned horses, and who essentially ran the show. The north was colononized by the poor of Europe---those who were escaping. The South was colonized by wealthy British landowners, whose land was granted to them by the king (check out the state names: Maryland, Virginia, Carolinas, Georgia---royal references). They owned land and horses---and they became the officers. So....they made the military rules and regulations. Now it's just become tradition and form following function.

Southerners made up the majority of officers in the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, and the War Between the States---because they had horses and money and could fund the war effort. They also brought many of their servants (not slaves) and farmworkers as aids and enlisted personnel because of trust and duty. Kind of 'feudal'.

I think Southerners have always felt a bit more of a sense of duty to country because so many of the 'big' original settlers still held an allegiance to the king---they were here not to escape tyranny, but to get MORE!<g> I also think it's not so great a leap to go from taking orders from the king of England to taking them from the president! <g>

Southerners are also more comfortable with the chain of command and deference to authority. BUT, because of the legacy of rank (granted by the king), I think Southerners don't like to take orders from "lessers"----which is how they viewed the northern settlers/states.

I think the early establishment of the US military, which was based on European model, simply kept a lot of the European system---which WAS based on rank. It just so happened that so was the South. I think it's a bit more clear than the Chicken and the Egg. I think it's a higher sense of duty to country as well as a comfort level with rank (sir & ma'am) that encourages more Southerners to join the service. (Being a redneck may have something to do with it too! <g>)

It is truly considered *honorable* to serve in the military here, as opposed to in other regions of the country where it is often seen as a last resort.

~Kelly

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Kelly, maybe you or Ben know this, about the military. I've heard
the army,
> especially, is heavily composed of people from the southeastern
U.S. A
> disproportionate number of southerners. If that's so, do you
think there's a
> relationship? Or is one the chicken and one the egg?

I've been a military (Air Force) wife for 2+ years now and many of
the wives are southern. Maybe the men are too and just don't have the
accent, but in our neighborhood--on base--the southern women
outnumber everyone else! My husband thought I was making a joke about
it, and then every new neighbor we met proved my point. He says he
must have have missed the memo and that's why he married a California
girl. <g>

I've told ds that adults like to be called sir and ma'am and so far
he's decided that he doesn't want to use it, but he said he will use
other forms of "good manners" like please and thank you. Now I've
been modeling it more to both kids. Funny to hear them use it on each
other. <g>

He's already known to one neighbor for "talking back" because when
she told the boys to get out of her daughter's room, Mikey explained
that the girl had told them it was okay. Err, sounds like he was
telling her something quite relevant to me, actually.

So how does it work between adults? Do you say it to every stranger
or are there situations/people you wouldn't use it in/on? I still
just can not wrap my brain around the military rank idea, esp. that
enlisted and officers aren't supposed to socialize with each other
(the A.F. seems to be more relaxed about that than other services)
and the southern sir and ma'ams just confuse me more!

--aj

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
The north was colononized by the poor of Europe---those who were
escaping. The South was colonized by wealthy British landowners,
whose land was granted to them by the king (check out the state
names: Maryland, Virginia, Carolinas, Georgia---royal references).

Oh, that reminded me to actually order the book in my Amazon cart:
_Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America_ by David Hackett
Fischer. Described thus:

This cultural history explains the European settlement of the United
States as voluntary migrations from four English cultural centers.
Families of zealous, literate Puritan yeomen and artisans from
urbanized East Anglia established a religious community in
Massachusetts (1629-40); royalist cavaliers headed by Sir William
Berkeley and young, male indentured servants from the south and west
of England built a highly stratified agrarian way of life in Virginia
(1640-70); egalitarian Quakers of modest social standing from the
North Midlands resettled in the Delaware Valley and promoted a social
pluralism (1675-1715); and, in by far the largest migration (1717-
75), poor borderland families of English, Scots, and Irish fled a
violent environment to seek a better life in a similarly uncertain
American backcountry. These four cultures, reflected in regional
patterns of language, architecture, literacy, dress, sport, social
structure, religious beliefs, and familial ways, persisted in the
American settlements. The final chapter shows the significance of
these regional cultures for American history up to the present.

--aj, going back doing physics with the boy--meaning trying to find a
way to get the (*&^& Hot Wheels ramp just right so that the cars go
through the two loops without falling off

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/05 12:46:10 PM, mamaaj2000@... writes:

<< He's already known to one neighbor for "talking back" because when

she told the boys to get out of her daughter's room, Mikey explained

that the girl had told them it was okay. Err, sounds like he was

telling her something quite relevant to me, actually. >>

WRONGO!
I've known adults like that. What they say is it, PERIOD. No "backtalk."

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/05 1:08:24 PM, mamaaj2000@... writes:

<< and, in by far the largest migration (1717-

75), poor borderland families of English, Scots, and Irish fled a

violent environment to seek a better life in a similarly uncertain

American backcountry. >>

Those were my ancestors. They went west and some south. Most were in Texas
(when I go back, I go back in Texas a long way).

Sandra

mamaaj2000

Yeh, she responded with something along the lines of "it's my house
and I said go in the other room." She and her husband are ALWAYS
telling their kids to stop talking to them and go play somewhere
else. Pretty soon, I'm sure the kids are going to give up and then
they'll wonder why.

Mikey tends to ask that boy to come over here. Another neighbor, he
like to go visit. Smart kid, eh?

--aj

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/29/05 12:46:10 PM, mamaaj2000@y... writes:
>
> << He's already known to one neighbor for "talking back" because
when
>
> she told the boys to get out of her daughter's room, Mikey
explained
>
> that the girl had told them it was okay. Err, sounds like he was
>
> telling her something quite relevant to me, actually. >>
>
> WRONGO!
> I've known adults like that. What they say is it, PERIOD.
No "backtalk."
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 2:44:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, "mamaaj2000" <mamaaj2000@...> writes:

>>>>>>So how does it work between adults? Do you say it to every stranger or are there situations/people you wouldn't use it in/on? <<<<

All strangers, unless they show me that they are not deserving of my respect. Definitely the elderly.

Those in service positions are expected to use it here: restaurant wait staff, hoteliers, your plumber. I used it as a dog groomer with my clients. Generally lawyers use it with their clients and clients with their lawyers. Ditto with doctors and policemen. Judges get it from *everybody*! <g> Teachers tend to let you know what they expect: those that "ain't from around here" tend to let it slide.

Generally, if you would call someone by his first name, you lose the "sir".

As an officer's wife, I'm an anomaly. I "sir" Ben's sergeants. Many of them are (well, *were*) older than Ben! (So did Ben as a lieutenant---one of his NCOs had to call him on it. He told Ben in NO uncertain terms NOT to do it anymore. Ben had a well-bitten tongue for weeks! <g>)


>>>>>>>I still just can not wrap my brain around the military rank idea, esp. that enlisted and officers aren't supposed to socialize with each other (the A.F. seems to be more relaxed about that than other services)<<<<<

I've found that too. But we became pretty close with several of Ben's sergeants and their wives. One started calling Ben by his first name. Ben had to tell him that he had to knock that off. So---here they were, playing racketball: Ben would say , "Good shot, Joe!" and he would say, "Nice shot, sir!" <g> But that's part of the game. If you don't like it (or can't handle it), get out.

Fraternization is NOT just in the military. I enforced it when we had a restaurant. As manager, I didn't associate with my waitstaff (although we were very friendly). My brother DID---he'd go out and get drunk and party with the staff. They lost a lot of respect for him when they'd see him at his worst.

Ben says that the military is different. As an officer, Ben has the responsibility to send men into harm's way. NCOs cannot do that unless there is no officer there. Ben can't be deciding which men to send into battle based on whom he likes most. It *must* be based on what's best for the unit.


>>>>>and the southern sir and ma'ams just confuse me more!<<<<

Boston traffic confuses *me*! <g>

~Kelly

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 3:06:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, "mamaaj2000" <mamaaj2000@...> writes:

>This cultural history explains the European settlement of the United
>States as voluntary migrations from four English cultural centers.
>Families of zealous, literate Puritan yeomen and artisans from
>urbanized East Anglia established a religious community in
>Massachusetts (1629-40); royalist cavaliers headed by Sir William
>Berkeley and young, male indentured servants from the south and west
>of England built a highly stratified agrarian way of life in Virginia
>(1640-70); egalitarian Quakers of modest social standing from the
>North Midlands resettled in the Delaware Valley and promoted a social
>pluralism (1675-1715); and, in by far the largest migration (1717-
>75), poor borderland families of English, Scots, and Irish fled a
>violent environment to seek a better life in a similarly uncertain
>American backcountry. These four cultures, reflected in regional
>patterns of language, architecture, literacy, dress, sport, social
>structure, religious beliefs, and familial ways, persisted in the
>American settlements. The final chapter shows the significance of
>these regional cultures for American history up to the present.
<<<<<

Damn....my rambling ideas made sense to someone else (and he published it!). Cool! <g>

Royalist cavaliers--that's it! <g>

~Kelly

werefree2learn

> >>>>>>So how does it work between adults? Do you say it to every
stranger or are there situations/people you wouldn't use it in/on?
<<<<
>
> All strangers, unless they show me that they are not deserving of
my respect. Definitely the elderly.

That's just what always bothered me about yes, ma'am and no, sir.
I seem to be of the opposite philosophy, I'll be curteous to
everyone but respect from me comes from knowledge of people and if
they've showed me they deserve my respect. I would happily say yes,
ma'am and no, sir to my aunt and uncle in NC if they wanted me too.
I respect and like them tons.

I believe I know some of the reasons why came to my ideas about
respecting people. When I was a child and told I needed to respect
my elders (in the north) just because they were older than me. I
began to dislike automatic respect because the people that always
told me I 'had' to respect them always seemed to be the ones that
deserved it the least. I remember getting in big trouble once in
school and once in church for no showing 'enough' respect to my
elders (I believe I was supposedly back talking). I thought
blakkk!! Do they deserve my respect? Usually they didn't, they
were bullying me and I even saw it as a child.

Even once I enlisted in the AF I wouldn't say all the sir's and
such unless I was flat out told I had to or would get some kind of
written reprimand(happened only once or twice). When I joined at 18
to get away from home I guess I didn't think about 'having' to say,
ma'am and such. Yes, ma'am and such in basic training (boot camp)
just seemed like a part of the game of being degraded and made to
feel little, as well as being yelled at ect. At my first base
though yet again some enlisted person who was in my classes and
around my same age with a slightly higher rank than me (he had some
college) insisted I say yes, sir ect. to him. He was definitely
from the south somewhere. He so... didn't deserve such formal
respect imo then (none of us liked him) and I couldn't/wouldn't do
it. That was the start of my AF career. <g>

Joy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 4:41:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, "werefree2learn" <joyerin@...> writes:

At my first base
>though yet again some enlisted person who was in my classes and
>around my same age with a slightly higher rank than me (he had some
>college) insisted I say yes, sir ect. to him.  He was definitely
>from the south somewhere.  He so... didn't deserve such formal
>respect imo then (none of us liked him) and I couldn't/wouldn't do
>it. <<<<

Ben says he was just a prick!

<g>

He may have spent some time at a military college and got booted out and felt he deserved some warped sense of respect. Ben says: a prick!

As a second lieutenant, Ben would not have to "sir" a first lieutenant. He *might* "sir" a captain (depending on the relationship), he regularly "sir-ed" majors and above.

Enlisted "sir" high-up NCO's---especially the highest ranking NCO's on base---but most of that is out of real respect for the person. It's not a requirement.

Ben says that there's mandated stuff---and then there are the intangibles. All things being equal-ish (like your story above) Ben says he divides it 30/30/30. 30% is respect for the rank (that's mandated). 30% is respect for the office he holds, and 30% is for the person.

Ben pins on LtCol this year and is squadron commander. He is mandated to receive his "sirs" because of his rank of LtCol. He gets a certain amount of respect as squadron commander, because it's pretty important. But the last 30% is his alone to earn as the person.

This guy you described should not have been sir-ed nor did he deserve it.

~Kelly

Jackie Chovanes

On Jan 29, 2005, at 4:41 PM, werefree2learn wrote:

> When I was a child and told I needed to respect
> my elders (in the north) just because they were older than me. I
> began to dislike automatic respect because the people that always
> told me I 'had' to respect them always seemed to be the ones that
> deserved it the least.

It's sad how many people never figure out that you have to *command*
respect by your attitude and actions, you can never just *demand* it
and have it be genuine.

> I remember getting in big trouble once in
> school and once in church for no showing 'enough' respect to my
> elders (I believe I was supposedly back talking). I thought
> blakkk!! Do they deserve my respect? Usually they didn't, they
> were bullying me and I even saw it as a child.

When I was about 10 yo, I went to CCD classes at our Catholic church.
The Sunday school teacher was a female member of the church, who had
two children about my age. She told our class that for the duration of
the CCD class we would be expected to tithe from our allowances and any
other money we received -- birthday gifts, etc. -- so that she could
send in the money we collected each week to the Pope so he could use it
to feed hungry children around the world.

I was really affected by her description of the hungry children, and
had what I thought was a brilliant idea -- I raised my hand and asked
why, since the Pope owned all those valuable paintings and other
treasures in the Vatican, couldn't he just sell them and then he'd have
enough money to feed all the hungry people in the whole world?!

Well, after standing there dumbfounded for about 3 minutes, she
completely freaked out on me and sent me home. (She knew I lived
within walking distance.) Later that evening, the monk who ran the
program called my parents and said I wouldn't be allowed back unless I
promised never to ask another question in class (this wasn't the first
time I stumped her, I guess). My parents later told me Brother Jerry
thought the whole thing was pretty funny, but he wasn't about to side
with a child against an adult, (and neither would my parents, even
though now they tell the story with a weird sort of pride) so that was
that ...


Jackie Chovanes
jchovanes@...

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
>I used it as a dog groomer with my clients.

And you wouldn't expect them to use it back to you? It's uneven
because of the difference in positions?

I'm cracking up at the fact that I'm learning this on an unschooling
list instead of from people around me, but y'all (it's rubbing off!!)
are much more introspective!

> So---here they were, playing racketball: Ben would say , "Good
shot, Joe!" and he would say, "Nice shot, sir!" <g> But that's part
of the game. If you don't like it (or can't handle it), get out.

Right. Part of the game, shouldn't take it as some measure of one
person being worth more than the other. I think I just have to
separate it from "real life" a bit more or something!

>
> Fraternization is NOT just in the military. I enforced it when we
had a restaurant. As manager, I didn't associate with my waitstaff
(although we were very friendly). My brother DID---he'd go out and
get drunk and party with the staff. They lost a lot of respect for
him when they'd see him at his worst.

True. I've had to manage people older than me and it took a little
getting used to telling them what to do, but they understood the
difference in roles, so we did fine.

If we make it to the conference, my dh will be easy to spot because
he'll be the only one calling Ben sir, lol!

--aj

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 6:24:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, "mamaaj2000" <mamaaj2000@...> writes:

>
>
>--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
>>I used it as a dog groomer with my clients.
>
>And you wouldn't expect them to use it back to you? It's uneven
>because of the difference in positions?<<<<

Right. I wouldn't. I'm doing the service. Plus, a lot of them were little old ladies. I *did* get a few ma'ams---because it's SOOO common here. But as the service *provider*, I am in the servant role (and *they* are the tippers! <g>).


>Right. Part of the game, shouldn't take it as some measure of one
>person being worth more than the other. I think I just have to
>separate it from "real life" a bit more or something!<<<<

Right, but it IS part of "real life" in the South and in the military. But you can choose to live here or to be in the military, so it's not like you *have* to! <g>


>>>>>If we make it to the conference, my dh will be easy to spot because he'll be the only one calling Ben sir, lol!<<<<

Unless in uniform, Ben wouldn't know or expect it. I know you were joking---but just in case, for those who don't know...

~Kelly

[email protected]

Marty and I went to the grocery store. I listened for anyone to say "ma'am"
or "sir."

None.

When I asked someone where the honey was, I got her attention by saying,
"Excuse me!" in a really friendly voice and smiling when she turned around, I
asked if she knew where the honey was. She told me, but she was wrong, and
while I was looking on 2D or whatever she'd said, she came up to tell me it was
on the next aisle over. She said, "Miss, I'm sorry, I was wrong. It's over
here."

"Miss." And me 51 years old with a teenaged boy with me.

But there it was, today in Albuquerque. None of the checkers or sackers
said "ma'am" to anyone that I heard, but everyone was in a good mood and quite
helpful and smiley.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JoyErin

> He may have spent some time at a military college and got booted out and felt he deserved some warped sense of respect. Ben says: a prick!

Yep! That's pretty much what I thought at the time. <g>
The two striper was actually a pretty nice guy until he was made troop
leader of our little group- they did that in my tech. school. It went
down from there. <g>

> As a second lieutenant, Ben would not have to "sir" a first lieutenant. He *might* "sir" a captain (depending on the relationship), he regularly "sir-ed" majors and above.

Well when you join the military at the very bottom of the pile you
pretty much need to sir everybody (or at least think you do after
basic-boot camp). I remember seeing in tech. school (19 years old, 18
years ago) a TSgt., I laugh now at how most of us then thought that
rank was such a big deal. He was so cool too, we thought that was
just amazing! <g>

> Enlisted "sir" high-up NCO's---especially the highest ranking NCO's on base---but most of that is out of real respect for the person. It's not a requirement.

This probably happens sometimes but my own experience would say that
yes, sirs are not usually out of real respect for the NCO person by
other enlisted. It was usually more of a formality or respect for the
position, at least among the enlisted I ever knew. Most of the AF
members I knew were from all over the states and not predominately the
south, maybe making a difference.

> Ben says that there's mandated stuff---and then there are the intangibles. All things being equal-ish (like your story above) Ben says he divides it 30/30/30. 30% is respect for the rank (that's mandated). 30% is respect for the office he holds, and 30% is for the person.

What an interesting way of looking at it. :o) My Dh, Mark, said he
always said his sir's in the military for the rank not the person (his
dad retired enlisted AF).

>Ben pins on LtCol this year and is squadron commander. He is mandated
to receive his "sirs" because of his rank of LtCol. He gets a certain
amount of respect as squadron commander, because it's pretty
important. But the last 30% is his alone to earn as the person.

Congratulations to you both, Kelly and Ben, on Ben's promotion. :-)
My dorm roommate after tech. school was my squadron commanders secretary.
I'm sure Ben easily earns others respect, in the military and out of
it. As do you. :-)

Joy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/29/2005 11:30:34 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

My parents both said "yes ma'am" and "yes sir" to the telephone operator, to

anyone they talked to, even after they moved out of Texas. And they were
mousie people to a large extent and I couldn't separate the two things in my
mind. It seemed they really felt inferior to just about everyone around
them.



~~~

Do you watch old black and white movies? Sir and Ma'am are part of good
service...it's how you treat people who don't know very well. I don't think
it's *just* a southern thing. I think it's a custom that was widespread in the
first part of the last century and the South is just a hold out.

I think courtesy and politeness grease the wheel of society and I don't see
a thing wrong with saying "Thank you, sir" to the waiter who hands me a drink
at a cocktail party.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I realized today reading this discussion that I use yes, ma'am (sir) fairly
often when I'm talking to children (usually other people's children) - to let
them know they have my attention, usually. But I rarely use it with adults,
except for my grandmother, sometimes.

Deborah


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

**When I hear people say "sir" or "ma'am" toward children, I cringe, because
I've usually heard it in preparation for some sarcasm or other put-down, in
the
context of telling them they're too big for their britches or other cliche
(and as cliche, said without much thought) kid-insults.**

When I say it to children, it is to indicate that they have my full
attention, that they are the most important thing going on around there to me at that
time. It is full of all it's original intention, respect.

I don't remember when or why I started using the phrase with kids (it's not
as if I grew up with it, either) but I suspect it was a deliberate opposition
to the usual condition of some child's life.

Deborah


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kayb85

> Boston traffic confuses *me*! <g>

ROFLOL! ME TOO! Last time I drove there I got in the wrong lane,
and so I sat there with my turn signal on, waiting for someone to
smile and wave to me to let me switch lanes. It was a looooong time
before someone let me switch lanes, and the guy who did yelled and
screamed a lot about it. I was stuck in the lane, with no one
letting me switch, but afraid to go straight because who knows WHERE
I would have ended up, and....Yikes! I was shaking for hours after
that experience.

Sheila

kayb85

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Marty and I went to the grocery store. I listened for anyone to
say "ma'am"
> or "sir."
>
> None.

I don't get ma'am here in Pennsylvania much either. Once in awhile,
and I really don't like it when I get it. It makes me feel old I
think. ;)

Sometimes around here you get "butt". "Hey butt, how ya doin?"
Older people are more likely to address you by butt than younger
people, but there are younger people who do it too. Ahhhh, the coal
regions. ;)

www.coalregion.com has a coalspeak dictionary of how people in our
area talk. Under butt it has this:

butt : you, friend. "Yo, butt, hand me dat hammer." Often used as "Ho
Butt!" when calling out to someone. "Yo" meaning "you". "Ho" short
for "Hello".

I had a teacher in highschool who felt it was his responsibility to
let us know that if we go outside of the coal regions and start
calling complete strangers butts that it might get us into trouble. ;)

Sheila

Johanna San Inocencio

did he wave that peculiar one fingered wave often seen in Boston?

Johanna
" A man is as free as he chooses to make himself, never an atom freer."
The Raven, Lillith by George MacDonald



kayb85 wrote:

>
>
> > Boston traffic confuses *me*! <g>
>
> ROFLOL! ME TOO! Last time I drove there I got in the wrong lane,
> and so I sat there with my turn signal on, waiting for someone to
> smile and wave to me to let me switch lanes. It was a looooong time
> before someone let me switch lanes, and the guy who did yelled and
> screamed a lot about it. I was stuck in the lane, with no one
> letting me switch, but afraid to go straight because who knows WHERE
> I would have ended up, and....Yikes! I was shaking for hours after
> that experience.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
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>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:48:00 EST tuckervill2@... writes:

> I think courtesy and politeness grease the wheel of society and I
> don't see
> a thing wrong with saying "Thank you, sir" to the waiter who hands
> me a drink
> at a cocktail party.
>
Yeah, I would do that. I think that I'm a lot more comfortable with
someone of high "status" (power, etc) saying it to someone of lower
"status", rather than the other way around. Actually, I guess I'm most
likely to use the words when I'm trying to sort of reassure the other
person of my respect when he or she is in a situation when he or she
might be perceived as having lower status. Like, if I see an elderly
person struggling to open a door I might say, "Let me get that for you,
sir," and the unspoken message is "I see you as a person who is worthy
of respect even though you can do longer open this door by yourself."

I went to a library book sale at 9 am on a Saturday morning a few weeks
ago, in sort of a "rough" town. There was a man who had gotten drunk and
injured himself during the night lying in the library doorway, and there
were paramedics and police officers talking with him and preparing him
for transport to a hospital. They were all calling him "Sir". This is
northern California, not the south atall, but two or three different
people all called him "Sir". I think they were trying to send the same
message of respect.

I just asked Rain if she ever called people Sir or Ma'am. She says she
does when she's ushering for the local theatre - "Excuse me, ma'am,
there's no food allowed in the theatre," or if she's asking someone in
the mall what time it is (which she doesn't do anymore since she has a
cell phone, anyway.) I thought the first example was interesting, anyway.
She's a child telling an adult what to do, and calling her Ma'am. To her
- to me, in our culture - those are terms of courtesy and respect. In
other situations, they're ways of reinforcing a power discrepancy.

Dar

Robyn Coburn

<<<< Yeah, I would do that. I think that I'm a lot more comfortable with
someone of high "status" (power, etc) saying it to someone of lower
"status", rather than the other way around. Actually, I guess I'm most
likely to use the words when I'm trying to sort of reassure the other
person of my respect when he or she is in a situation when he or she
might be perceived as having lower status.>>>>>

I do the same thing, such as the other night when I was inquiring where the
restroom was from a mature looking worker in a Best Buy (possible a
supervisor) - I feel sometimes it reinforces a formality of the
relationship.

I find, particularly as I get older one thing I do resent is youthful
cashiers, on receiving my credit card or ID, deciding to call me "Robyn".
Most of the time I get "Mizz Coburn", but every now and then in stores that
pride themselves on being hip or trendy. I was watching "Are You Being
Served" today - classic Britcom with multiple opportunities to be
offensively non-PC yet they got away with it. They continually call each
other Mr, Miss or Mrs despite working with each other constantly.

I also remember working in the theatre in Sydney, where there was a triple
tier of formal address. With the exception of addressing the biggest star
and the Producers, the Americans were more egalitarian and informal, than we
were (Australians) but visiting British performers and those from the Opera
were most formal, and had more of an expectation of deference. (BTW if you
ever want to blasted try calling "Dame Edna" Mr. Humphries while she is
wearing her heeled pumps - it didn't happen to me but I know someone).

When working on a movie I always initially address the actors with the
appropriate honorific - although the usual response is "Call me Malcolm" (or
what ever). My late FIL, whom always engendered instant awe just by his
presence, always said, "It's Jim" to everyone on the set. There is a lot of
"Yes, boss" within departments, "What do you need, bro?" between colleagues
of close or equal status, but the use of "ma'am" and "sir" to department
heads and the Director, but in a friendly manner. Producers get Mr. or Ms. -
at least to their faces - unless they also say "Mr. Smith is my father, call
me Bill." (The most common response from men is that line.)

Jayn has called people "miss" or "ma'am" or "sir" if they are strangers and
she is trying to get their attention. "Excuse me miss, I want a hot dog." It
seems to tickle them.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Fetteroll

on 1/29/05 11:07 PM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:

> I got in the wrong lane,
> and so I sat there with my turn signal on, waiting for someone to
> smile and wave to me to let me switch lanes.

Oh, no, no! The key to Boston driving survival is being agressive. You see a
gap, you jump in and then wave and smile to thank the person behind you for
not speeding up to close the gap ;-)

The streets are confusing and there's a severe lack of signs. Basically it's
set up only for people who already know where they're going ;-) And people
aren't too kind to those who are confused!

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/30/2005 8:48:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> writes:

>The streets are confusing and there's a severe lack of signs. Basically it'sset up only for people who already know where they're going ;-) And people aren't too kind to those who are confused!
>
>Joyce
<<<<

Well, Joyce is being incredibly generous in her description of Boston drivers! <g> "Aren't too kind"???

I've always thought of myself as a rather aggressive driver, but Boston puts even Ls Angeles to shame! <bwg>

~Kelly

kayb85

> Oh, no, no! The key to Boston driving survival is being agressive.
You see a
> gap, you jump in and then wave and smile to thank the person behind
you for
> not speeding up to close the gap ;-)


There were no gaps! lol And everyone was driving REALLY fast, and I
was SURE if I pulled out in front of one of them I'd get hit.

I did notice a change on the interstate as I got closer to Boston.
In Pennsylvania, people make sure it's clear before they switch
lanes. In Massachusetts, when you're driving in a lane you have to
make sure that the person switching lanes doesn't hit you. ;)

I LOVE Boston, but I found it much more enjoyable when I parked at
the (Framingham I think?) train station and took the subway into
Boston. I have deep admiration for people who can handle Boston
driving. They have a skill that I simply don't possess. lol

Sheila

[email protected]

-=-there
were paramedics and police officers talking with him and preparing him
for transport to a hospital. They were all calling him "Sir".-=-

The police "sir" the heck out of people they pull over or tell them to get out of the way. Not sure about paramedics. When I've been involved with them it was because an elderly neighbor was needing help, and they would be asking me questions about the neighbor who was less able to communicate. Don't remember "ma'am" but I wasn't the medically-in-need individually.

Sandra