Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Hitting is just NOT okay (was: curbing undesi...
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/2005 4:33:32 AM Central Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back.
~~~
That's how wars are started.
Seriously, though, do you think the person who hit her originally is going
to then just not hit her again? Where does it end? It doesn't, it just
escalates until someone gets hurt and relationships are damaged and playgroups are
destroyed.
Someone has to realize that revenge and retribution are not the answer. I
want it to be my child.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back.
~~~
That's how wars are started.
Seriously, though, do you think the person who hit her originally is going
to then just not hit her again? Where does it end? It doesn't, it just
escalates until someone gets hurt and relationships are damaged and playgroups are
destroyed.
Someone has to realize that revenge and retribution are not the answer. I
want it to be my child.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/2005 3:33:23 AM Mountain Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
i agree that it's not ok to hit someone simply out of frustration.
but i am not sure about saying that it's NEVER ok to hit. if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back. maybe first give them the benefit of
yelling 'hey, don't hit me' in case it was an accident and they might
make some gesture of apology..
---------------------
There are better responses than yelling and hitting, whether it was an
accident or not.
Our policy here when kids were little was first talk, then get a grownup to
help, and if that doesn't work *then* you can hit. It never got to step three
(though Kirby had hope it would sometimes, I think).
I agree that "never hit" would be a bad rule for someone to review in a case
in which an attack or abduction were taking place. Being hit by another
little kid is not one of those cases. And an apology or lack thereof isn't a
reason to decide whether to hit or not. She could just get away from the kid who
hit her and let him calm down. If the police stop someone for a road rage
moment, it won't matter if they say "The other guy didn't apologize."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
i agree that it's not ok to hit someone simply out of frustration.
but i am not sure about saying that it's NEVER ok to hit. if some kid
hits my daughter, i don't want her to run to me and point them out, i
want her to hit them back. maybe first give them the benefit of
yelling 'hey, don't hit me' in case it was an accident and they might
make some gesture of apology..
---------------------
There are better responses than yelling and hitting, whether it was an
accident or not.
Our policy here when kids were little was first talk, then get a grownup to
help, and if that doesn't work *then* you can hit. It never got to step three
(though Kirby had hope it would sometimes, I think).
I agree that "never hit" would be a bad rule for someone to review in a case
in which an attack or abduction were taking place. Being hit by another
little kid is not one of those cases. And an apology or lack thereof isn't a
reason to decide whether to hit or not. She could just get away from the kid who
hit her and let him calm down. If the police stop someone for a road rage
moment, it won't matter if they say "The other guy didn't apologize."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
it's true, if she hits, she will be hit in return. it will hurt and
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder.
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
perhaps the way his father did it was too harsh, but it gave him
strength and self-confidence i lack.
--inna
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder.
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
perhaps the way his father did it was too harsh, but it gave him
strength and self-confidence i lack.
--inna
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> Seriously, though, do you think the person who hit her originally
is going
> to then just not hit her again? Where does it end?
Mary
It is so hard to tell our children how to handle this stuff. Either way they can pay:
In VA, if a middle school student hits OR hits back, the school is mandated to call the police. A police report is filed with the childrens names on it. It is up to the discretion of the police officer whether to file a petition with the court or not. If the officer does file, the child(ren) are brought up on "assault and battery" charges. If the child(ren) are 14 yrs or older, they are charged as adults.
BTW, the "assault" does not have to be vicious. It can be a half hearted gesture to get a big mouth to stop his verbal abuse. Even if you have documentation that another student has been verbally attacking your child since the beginning of school, the child can be charged. Even if you have documentation that you've reported it, the child can be charged.
This is the information given to me by a local In-take Officer. You haven't lived until you know what the term "In-take Officer" means. She showed me her case load. She is overwhelmed with B&A charges on minors. She's three months behind the petitions. This means your 12 yr old son can hit/hit back someone at school, and be asked to be accountable for it six months later. By then, the two kids in question are friends.
I asked her what happened to mediation. When we were in school, if two kids didn't get along, they had to spend the day together. We had to eat lunch together, clean the blackboard together, help each other with our seatwork. We were so sick of each other by the end of the day, we were willing to pledge sisterhood if need be. Now, the kids aren't allowed to talk it out. Nothing is ever resolved between the kids at all. But, the kids end up with a police record.
They can teach No Drugs, Sexuality, Good Touches and Bad Touches, Fire Safety in Your Home....but they aren't allowed to mediate disputes. I was angry at first, then I realized it was my fault. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I had no idea this was mandated in my state, but it was my job to know. It's my fault because my kids had no business being taught in age-segregated classrooms with 35+ kids with one poor teacher. It's my fault because the minute they came home telling me about the weekly "lock-downs", I knew better. It's my fault because the first time my boys came home speaking some sort of street-english, I was accountable. Especially when I spoke to the teachers at Open-House and it was their English the boys were learning to speak.
I'll quit now. I'm getting off-topic. Sorry, I am really concerned about this. Take care, Mary
SpinFrog@... wrote:
it's true, if she hits, she will be hit in return. it will hurt and
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder.
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
perhaps the way his father did it was too harsh, but it gave him
strength and self-confidence i lack.
--inna
In VA, if a middle school student hits OR hits back, the school is mandated to call the police. A police report is filed with the childrens names on it. It is up to the discretion of the police officer whether to file a petition with the court or not. If the officer does file, the child(ren) are brought up on "assault and battery" charges. If the child(ren) are 14 yrs or older, they are charged as adults.
BTW, the "assault" does not have to be vicious. It can be a half hearted gesture to get a big mouth to stop his verbal abuse. Even if you have documentation that another student has been verbally attacking your child since the beginning of school, the child can be charged. Even if you have documentation that you've reported it, the child can be charged.
This is the information given to me by a local In-take Officer. You haven't lived until you know what the term "In-take Officer" means. She showed me her case load. She is overwhelmed with B&A charges on minors. She's three months behind the petitions. This means your 12 yr old son can hit/hit back someone at school, and be asked to be accountable for it six months later. By then, the two kids in question are friends.
I asked her what happened to mediation. When we were in school, if two kids didn't get along, they had to spend the day together. We had to eat lunch together, clean the blackboard together, help each other with our seatwork. We were so sick of each other by the end of the day, we were willing to pledge sisterhood if need be. Now, the kids aren't allowed to talk it out. Nothing is ever resolved between the kids at all. But, the kids end up with a police record.
They can teach No Drugs, Sexuality, Good Touches and Bad Touches, Fire Safety in Your Home....but they aren't allowed to mediate disputes. I was angry at first, then I realized it was my fault. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I had no idea this was mandated in my state, but it was my job to know. It's my fault because my kids had no business being taught in age-segregated classrooms with 35+ kids with one poor teacher. It's my fault because the minute they came home telling me about the weekly "lock-downs", I knew better. It's my fault because the first time my boys came home speaking some sort of street-english, I was accountable. Especially when I spoke to the teachers at Open-House and it was their English the boys were learning to speak.
I'll quit now. I'm getting off-topic. Sorry, I am really concerned about this. Take care, Mary
SpinFrog@... wrote:
it's true, if she hits, she will be hit in return. it will hurt and
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder.
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
perhaps the way his father did it was too harsh, but it gave him
strength and self-confidence i lack.
--inna
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> Seriously, though, do you think the person who hit her originally
is going
> to then just not hit her again? Where does it end?
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Fetteroll
on 1/19/05 8:57 PM, SpinFrog@... at SpinFrog@... wrote:
hitting each other, that's just the beginning. The rest should be talking to
the kids on the side to figure out what would have worked better. The parent
should be oriented towards helping the child figure out how to handle
situations for themselves.
And it will end because kids want to be independent. My daughter asked me to
solve arithmetic problems for her when she was younger but now she does them
herself and gets upset if someone blurts out the answer before she's done.
would have worked better when she was in conflicts before.
Not hitting isn't the same as total non-violence. In fact Sandra said her
kids *could* hit after the tried talking and then getting an adult.
Not hitting (as a first course of action) means there are better options.
"Don't hit," is like "Don't do school." When people first hear of
unschooling, taking away school leaves a vacuum. And yet there's a world
full of opportunities that exist when someone "doesnt do school". Which is
something that lists like this can help with.
There's a world full of options that fill the vacuum of "don't hit."
Standing there and letting someone hit you isn't in the top 10!
conflicts? Were you unschooled so that you had a sympathetic adult to help
you figure out what else to do?
it as an adult. You don't need to be Bruce Lee for it to work! ;-) I wasn't
great but even with my low level of "physical intelligence" the gap between
a beginner and where I was when I stopped going was *huge*.) The *best*
thing about martial arts isn't developing the ability to hurt someone before
they hurt you. It's developing the confidence that you *could* defend
yourself. When you are confident you're more capable than somene else then
it's very easy to walk away from a confrontation.
It's *way* better way to learn confidence than being told to stand up for
yourself and hit someone.
Joyce
> maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult toWhile parents may step in and solve a problem, like stopping kids from
> help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
> kids, when will that end?
hitting each other, that's just the beginning. The rest should be talking to
the kids on the side to figure out what would have worked better. The parent
should be oriented towards helping the child figure out how to handle
situations for themselves.
And it will end because kids want to be independent. My daughter asked me to
solve arithmetic problems for her when she was younger but now she does them
herself and gets upset if someone blurts out the answer before she's done.
> when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn'tShe will know if her parents have helped her figure out the options that
> working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
> she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do?
would have worked better when she was in conflicts before.
Not hitting isn't the same as total non-violence. In fact Sandra said her
kids *could* hit after the tried talking and then getting an adult.
Not hitting (as a first course of action) means there are better options.
"Don't hit," is like "Don't do school." When people first hear of
unschooling, taking away school leaves a vacuum. And yet there's a world
full of opportunities that exist when someone "doesnt do school". Which is
something that lists like this can help with.
There's a world full of options that fill the vacuum of "don't hit."
Standing there and letting someone hit you isn't in the top 10!
> i did. andDid your parents help you talk about other options you had when you had
> i don't want her to be like that.
conflicts? Were you unschooled so that you had a sympathetic adult to help
you figure out what else to do?
> his father told him that if he was scaredThat's a philosophy that can get people put in jail if they follow through.
> that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
> first.
> i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up forMartial arts can help with this a lot. You can start right now. (I started
> myself as well.
it as an adult. You don't need to be Bruce Lee for it to work! ;-) I wasn't
great but even with my low level of "physical intelligence" the gap between
a beginner and where I was when I stopped going was *huge*.) The *best*
thing about martial arts isn't developing the ability to hurt someone before
they hurt you. It's developing the confidence that you *could* defend
yourself. When you are confident you're more capable than somene else then
it's very easy to walk away from a confrontation.
It's *way* better way to learn confidence than being told to stand up for
yourself and hit someone.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/2005 9:22:06 PM Central Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
~~~
There are more options between hitting back and standing there and taking
it. Would you really just stand there and talk while someone is hitting you?
Wouldn't you try to get away, at least? If a man tried to overpower you on
the street, and you saw someone nearby who could help, wouldn't you call out
to them? If you got away and he chased you, wouldn't you go to the nearest
person who you thought could help?
Wouldn't you go to your husband if he was nearby? Sure, you'll say your
husband will try to hit the guy. But wouldn't it be better if he called the
police instead, and then there was justice so it didn't happen to anyone else?
Your child should have the same kind of help, no matter how old she is.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
~~~
There are more options between hitting back and standing there and taking
it. Would you really just stand there and talk while someone is hitting you?
Wouldn't you try to get away, at least? If a man tried to overpower you on
the street, and you saw someone nearby who could help, wouldn't you call out
to them? If you got away and he chased you, wouldn't you go to the nearest
person who you thought could help?
Wouldn't you go to your husband if he was nearby? Sure, you'll say your
husband will try to hit the guy. But wouldn't it be better if he called the
police instead, and then there was justice so it didn't happen to anyone else?
Your child should have the same kind of help, no matter how old she is.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/19/2005 8:22:06 PM Mountain Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-it's true, if she hits, she will be hit in return. it will hurt and
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder. -=-
You'll always wonder what?
Whether your life would have been better had you hit someone?
-=-maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help.-=-
She should always, until the day she dies, be able to ask help of other
humans.
-=-when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do?=-
If until then she has been encouraged to hit, why would she stop just because
she was 10 or 12? Maybe she'll continue on thinking it's as cool as anything
to hit her own kids.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
-=-i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
-=-
A person can stand up for herself with words and with the removal of herself
from a situation or getting others involved.
A person can learn to defuse situations earlier, before any hitting starts.
A person who believes hitting is a good idea can go to prison where she will
learn all KINDS of things she can't get out of.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-it's true, if she hits, she will be hit in return. it will hurt and
there will be bad feelings. hitting is never a real solution, but
there are situations when it needs to be done, because if you do not,
you will always wonder. -=-
You'll always wonder what?
Whether your life would have been better had you hit someone?
-=-maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help.-=-
She should always, until the day she dies, be able to ask help of other
humans.
-=-when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do?=-
If until then she has been encouraged to hit, why would she stop just because
she was 10 or 12? Maybe she'll continue on thinking it's as cool as anything
to hit her own kids.
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
-=-i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.
-=-
A person can stand up for herself with words and with the removal of herself
from a situation or getting others involved.
A person can learn to defuse situations earlier, before any hitting starts.
A person who believes hitting is a good idea can go to prison where she will
learn all KINDS of things she can't get out of.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Inna Manni
Joyce,
I like Sandra's approach too. Violence should be the very last
option. But it should definately be an option. That's all I was
trying to say.
It's funny you should mention jail time, because my husband's father
spent half his life in jail. I can see the point in what you are
saying, about other options and the confidence gained from martial
arts training. But have you ever been in a real fight? He has been in
many, and what he brings is the kind of self-confidence and attitude
that can only be gotten from real experience. He has a different
perspective than a person who has training but who has never fought
unrestricted by rules. I see it and I cannot help but respect it and
wish for my daughter to have it. As a teenager, I have been in MANY
situations where I found various alternatives to violence. But it was
because nobody ever talked to me about such things - besides saying
'just ignore them' and 'don't use violence' - because I was scared to
fight, unsure of myself - not because of some noble notion that
non-violence is better. I don't want my daughter to grow up believing
herself weak and a coward.
--Inna
--- Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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I like Sandra's approach too. Violence should be the very last
option. But it should definately be an option. That's all I was
trying to say.
It's funny you should mention jail time, because my husband's father
spent half his life in jail. I can see the point in what you are
saying, about other options and the confidence gained from martial
arts training. But have you ever been in a real fight? He has been in
many, and what he brings is the kind of self-confidence and attitude
that can only be gotten from real experience. He has a different
perspective than a person who has training but who has never fought
unrestricted by rules. I see it and I cannot help but respect it and
wish for my daughter to have it. As a teenager, I have been in MANY
situations where I found various alternatives to violence. But it was
because nobody ever talked to me about such things - besides saying
'just ignore them' and 'don't use violence' - because I was scared to
fight, unsure of myself - not because of some noble notion that
non-violence is better. I don't want my daughter to grow up believing
herself weak and a coward.
--Inna
--- Fetteroll <fetteroll@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> While parents may step in and solve a problem, like stopping kids
> from
> hitting each other, that's just the beginning. The rest should be
> talking to
> the kids on the side to figure out what would have worked better.
> The parent
> should be oriented towards helping the child figure out how to
> handle
> situations for themselves.
>
> And it will end because kids want to be independent. My daughter
> asked me to
> solve arithmetic problems for her when she was younger but now she
> does them
> herself and gets upset if someone blurts out the answer before
> she's done.
>
> > when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
> > working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence,
> will
> > she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do?
>
> She will know if her parents have helped her figure out the options
> that
> would have worked better when she was in conflicts before.
>
> Not hitting isn't the same as total non-violence. In fact Sandra
> said her
> kids *could* hit after the tried talking and then getting an adult.
>
> Not hitting (as a first course of action) means there are better
> options.
> "Don't hit," is like "Don't do school." When people first hear of
> unschooling, taking away school leaves a vacuum. And yet there's a
> world
> full of opportunities that exist when someone "doesnt do school".
> Which is
> something that lists like this can help with.
>
> There's a world full of options that fill the vacuum of "don't
> hit."
> Standing there and letting someone hit you isn't in the top 10!
>
> > i did. and
> > i don't want her to be like that.
>
> Did your parents help you talk about other options you had when you
> had
> conflicts? Were you unschooled so that you had a sympathetic adult
> to help
> you figure out what else to do?
>
> > his father told him that if he was scared
> > that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
> > first.
>
> That's a philosophy that can get people put in jail if they follow
> through.
>
> > i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
> > myself as well.
>
> Martial arts can help with this a lot. You can start right now. (I
> started
> it as an adult. You don't need to be Bruce Lee for it to work! ;-)
> I wasn't
> great but even with my low level of "physical intelligence" the gap
> between
> a beginner and where I was when I stopped going was *huge*.) The
> *best*
> thing about martial arts isn't developing the ability to hurt
> someone before
> they hurt you. It's developing the confidence that you *could*
> defend
> yourself. When you are confident you're more capable than somene
> else then
> it's very easy to walk away from a confrontation.
>
> It's *way* better way to learn confidence than being told to stand
> up for
> yourself and hit someone.
>
> Joyce
>
>
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Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/2005 11:14:00 AM Mountain Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-I like Sandra's approach too. Violence should be the very last
option. But it should definately be an option. That's all I was
trying to say. -=-
I don't think my approach makes it "definitely an option."
It makes it a possibly eventuality. That's true even of murder, though. A
possible eventuality isn't a recommendation. It was "don't do this UNLESS
other remedies have been applied."
-=-It's funny you should mention jail time, because my husband's father
spent half his life in jail.-=-
So that's definitely an option for your kids, you think?
I had an uncle who did a stint for armed robbery, got out and robbed a store
because it was easier than finding an apartment. It's not that I'm clueless
about prison. I think it's a think to be avoided. Like hitting.
-=-But have you ever been in a real fight? He has been in
many, and what he brings is the kind of self-confidence and attitude
that can only be gotten from real experience. He has a different
perspective than a person who has training but who has never fought
unrestricted by rules. I see it and I cannot help but respect it and
wish for my daughter to have it. -=-
Confidence?
Tere are many ways to gain confidence, and many MANY confident people who
have never been in a fight.
-=-As a teenager, I have been in MANY
situations where I found various alternatives to violence. But it was
because nobody ever talked to me about such things - -=-
I don't think that's what you mean to write.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-I like Sandra's approach too. Violence should be the very last
option. But it should definately be an option. That's all I was
trying to say. -=-
I don't think my approach makes it "definitely an option."
It makes it a possibly eventuality. That's true even of murder, though. A
possible eventuality isn't a recommendation. It was "don't do this UNLESS
other remedies have been applied."
-=-It's funny you should mention jail time, because my husband's father
spent half his life in jail.-=-
So that's definitely an option for your kids, you think?
I had an uncle who did a stint for armed robbery, got out and robbed a store
because it was easier than finding an apartment. It's not that I'm clueless
about prison. I think it's a think to be avoided. Like hitting.
-=-But have you ever been in a real fight? He has been in
many, and what he brings is the kind of self-confidence and attitude
that can only be gotten from real experience. He has a different
perspective than a person who has training but who has never fought
unrestricted by rules. I see it and I cannot help but respect it and
wish for my daughter to have it. -=-
Confidence?
Tere are many ways to gain confidence, and many MANY confident people who
have never been in a fight.
-=-As a teenager, I have been in MANY
situations where I found various alternatives to violence. But it was
because nobody ever talked to me about such things - -=-
I don't think that's what you mean to write.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/2005 11:14:00 AM Mountain Standard Time,
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-I was scared to
fight, unsure of myself - not because of some noble notion that
non-violence is better. -=-
Non-violence is better legally.
It's better physically.
It's better spiritually and emotionally.
Noble notions are good and desirable things.
I like it when my children have noble notions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SpinFrog@... writes:
-=-I was scared to
fight, unsure of myself - not because of some noble notion that
non-violence is better. -=-
Non-violence is better legally.
It's better physically.
It's better spiritually and emotionally.
Noble notions are good and desirable things.
I like it when my children have noble notions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emile Snyder
This guy makes some amazing stacked card structures. Guinness record at
17, went on to do architecture, still going...
http://www.cardstacker.com/
Interesting to see people *way* off the beaten path ;)
-emile
17, went on to do architecture, still going...
http://www.cardstacker.com/
Interesting to see people *way* off the beaten path ;)
-emile
Robyn Coburn
<<<<maybe now that she is only 3, it seems ok for her to get an adult to
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.>>>>
It doesn't "seem" OK. It *is* OK. She will know what to do later *because*
of the good help she has been given. From your own story, you were not given
good help or offered a plethora of strategies and choices, and that is why
you now feel inadequate when faced with conflict.
These extremes of being either an abjectly fearful person or what is
effectively the bravado of a violent person who lands the first punch, are
*not* the only choices. Self-assertiveness need not be the same as
aggression. Kids who "always hit" are often labelled and avoided at the park
or in playgroups.
Notice that your father-in-law was promoting a violent reaction *to fear*,
while you have grown up also living in fear of being hurt that you are now
carrying over to your child. I wonder if you are mistaking confidence for
aggression borne of a deep fear of being vulnerable. I believe that many
men, especially if they grew up in violent homes or homes without an
attentive, loving male presence, are afraid of their own softness or ability
to show gentleness, seeing it as weakness. They often find it hard to accept
or show love also.
Wouldn't it be great if you could help your child learn to recognize a
possibly dangerous situation and learn how to avoid it or escape from it, so
that either submission or violent posturing was avoidable also? One of the
great results of Unschooling is that our children usually trust us to give
them accurate and reasoned information, including about how to deal with
difficult or dangerous situations. They can come to us for help in finding
safe ways to achieve their desires or goals, instead of feeling the need to
engage in risky behaviors. It is so important to me that Jayn (5) feel that
she can *always* approach me for help with other people especially if they
are pushing her beyond her comfort level.
Were you and your dh really in the same kind of violent situations? From
your description it is possible that your dh grew up in an abusive
household, or a terrifying locale of some violent subculture.
It is very hard to show or model what one does not know or understand
oneself. I urge you to go to www.naturalchild.org and read some of the
articles there, most especially "Helping Children Heal From Emotional Hurts"
(also for your own childhood), and then explore some of Alice Miller's
writings about the nature of societal violence and its roots in childhood.
Another source of useful information might be Non-violent Communication -
but I don't have those websites at my fingertips. I'm certain someone else
will be able to post them, unless you find links at Sandra's site.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.830 / Virus Database: 565 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
help. but if she learns to run to adults for her troubles with other
kids, when will that end? when she is 10 or 12 and talking isn't
working, and she has grown up believing in total non-violence, will
she just stand there and be hurt, and not know what to do? i did. and
i don't want her to be like that.
on the other hand, my husband was raised to never let anybody hit him
without hitting them back. his father told him that if he was scared
that a particular person was about to hit him, he should hit them
first. he is confident that he can handle himself and knows how he
would react in a dangerous situation, because he has been there so
many times. i wish my parents had taught me how to stand up for
myself as well.>>>>
It doesn't "seem" OK. It *is* OK. She will know what to do later *because*
of the good help she has been given. From your own story, you were not given
good help or offered a plethora of strategies and choices, and that is why
you now feel inadequate when faced with conflict.
These extremes of being either an abjectly fearful person or what is
effectively the bravado of a violent person who lands the first punch, are
*not* the only choices. Self-assertiveness need not be the same as
aggression. Kids who "always hit" are often labelled and avoided at the park
or in playgroups.
Notice that your father-in-law was promoting a violent reaction *to fear*,
while you have grown up also living in fear of being hurt that you are now
carrying over to your child. I wonder if you are mistaking confidence for
aggression borne of a deep fear of being vulnerable. I believe that many
men, especially if they grew up in violent homes or homes without an
attentive, loving male presence, are afraid of their own softness or ability
to show gentleness, seeing it as weakness. They often find it hard to accept
or show love also.
Wouldn't it be great if you could help your child learn to recognize a
possibly dangerous situation and learn how to avoid it or escape from it, so
that either submission or violent posturing was avoidable also? One of the
great results of Unschooling is that our children usually trust us to give
them accurate and reasoned information, including about how to deal with
difficult or dangerous situations. They can come to us for help in finding
safe ways to achieve their desires or goals, instead of feeling the need to
engage in risky behaviors. It is so important to me that Jayn (5) feel that
she can *always* approach me for help with other people especially if they
are pushing her beyond her comfort level.
Were you and your dh really in the same kind of violent situations? From
your description it is possible that your dh grew up in an abusive
household, or a terrifying locale of some violent subculture.
It is very hard to show or model what one does not know or understand
oneself. I urge you to go to www.naturalchild.org and read some of the
articles there, most especially "Helping Children Heal From Emotional Hurts"
(also for your own childhood), and then explore some of Alice Miller's
writings about the nature of societal violence and its roots in childhood.
Another source of useful information might be Non-violent Communication -
but I don't have those websites at my fingertips. I'm certain someone else
will be able to post them, unless you find links at Sandra's site.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.830 / Virus Database: 565 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
Fetteroll
on 1/20/05 12:56 PM, Inna Manni at SpinFrog@... wrote:
Rather than wishing your daughter could have real confidence in a fight
wouldn't it serve them better to work toward a life where they never had to
worry about whether they could handle themselves in a fight?
You seem to be trying to figure out a better way to live in the box you're
in rather than finding a way out of the box.
Joyce
> He has a differentHave you ever had martial arts training?
> perspective than a person who has training but who has never fought
> unrestricted by rules. I see it and I cannot help but respect it and
> wish for my daughter to have it.
Rather than wishing your daughter could have real confidence in a fight
wouldn't it serve them better to work toward a life where they never had to
worry about whether they could handle themselves in a fight?
You seem to be trying to figure out a better way to live in the box you're
in rather than finding a way out of the box.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/05 2:01:51 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< Wouldn't it be great if you could help your child learn to recognize a
possibly dangerous situation and learn how to avoid it or escape from it, so
that either submission or violent posturing was avoidable also? >>
Kirby, who's 18 now, has been studying karate since he was nine. He's told
me three stories of situations in which other people might have been tempted to
fight or flee. In each one, he used words and soothing humor. He didn't
show fear, because he wasn't afraid, but he also didn't use agression, because he
was confident.
I highly recommend martial arts, and it's something you the mom could do with
your daughter, too. There is a philosophy that goes along with the best
schools, of peace-making and defense, of being whole and centered.
Reading some Alice Miller, at least website summaries and discussions or
interviews (whole books aren't necessary, honestly) might give you a good idea of
how you yourself can begin to see your childhood in a way that will create
another tool in your tool box. Understanding how you came to be the way you are
can give you a set of dos and don'ts to use when deciding how to act now with
your daughter, so that you're neither blindly perpetuating the past nor living
in opposition to the past, but making each decision from a thoughtful
awareness of how things work.
Sandra
<< Wouldn't it be great if you could help your child learn to recognize a
possibly dangerous situation and learn how to avoid it or escape from it, so
that either submission or violent posturing was avoidable also? >>
Kirby, who's 18 now, has been studying karate since he was nine. He's told
me three stories of situations in which other people might have been tempted to
fight or flee. In each one, he used words and soothing humor. He didn't
show fear, because he wasn't afraid, but he also didn't use agression, because he
was confident.
I highly recommend martial arts, and it's something you the mom could do with
your daughter, too. There is a philosophy that goes along with the best
schools, of peace-making and defense, of being whole and centered.
Reading some Alice Miller, at least website summaries and discussions or
interviews (whole books aren't necessary, honestly) might give you a good idea of
how you yourself can begin to see your childhood in a way that will create
another tool in your tool box. Understanding how you came to be the way you are
can give you a set of dos and don'ts to use when deciding how to act now with
your daughter, so that you're neither blindly perpetuating the past nor living
in opposition to the past, but making each decision from a thoughtful
awareness of how things work.
Sandra
Kristina Kahney
Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
<<Have you ever had martial arts training?>>
After hearing so many recommendatins for martial arts training I'm looking for a place so my almost 6 yo son can try some classes. I've realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types of martial arts.
Feelings clueless...any tips as to a "type" or what to look for at the place? Thanks.
Kristina
\
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Have you ever had martial arts training?>>
After hearing so many recommendatins for martial arts training I'm looking for a place so my almost 6 yo son can try some classes. I've realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types of martial arts.
Feelings clueless...any tips as to a "type" or what to look for at the place? Thanks.
Kristina
\
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Emile Snyder
On Fri, 2005-01-21 at 20:57, Kristina Kahney wrote:
I would spend a little bit of time thinking about what you are looking
for in the experience, then call places and ask about observing a class
or two. Definitely go and check out the vibe before you commit to
anything. One caution, if you're primarily interested in quick self
defense skills, consider just taking a self defense class. Any martial
art will probably improve your self defense skills in the long run, but
studying with that focus will probably not be the most rewarding way to
experience the art.
In terms of what you're looking for... often people think of martial
arts styles being arranged on a soft -> hard axis, where at the soft
extreme you might have something like tai chi (as far as I know it's
almost always non-contact), and on the hard end thinks like mui tai
(thai kick boxing), or jujitsu (in some Japanese arts there's a
distinction made between soft and hard forms using the -do or -jitsu
ending, so judo is the art studied for the throws and joint locks, while
jujitsu is the art studied for the joint breaks/more damaging forms).
What's available will usually depend on how urban an area you are in;
most places will have karate (pretty hard), judo (medium soft?) or
taekwondo (again, more hard) schools. If you're somewhere with a higher
population density, you might find some less mainstream stuff, like
capoiera (a Brazilian form somewhere between dance and martial arts,
they do some really crazy gymnastic kind of moves).
I've spent some time with karate (briefly, elementary school aged),
aikido (most of junior high, high school, several years worth off and on
since), and taekwondo (a year or so post college). So far aikido has
been by far my favorite. In aikido (at least in the dojo that I trained
at -- USAF western region affiliated) the bulk of training was done in
pairs. The teacher would invite a student to help him demonstrate a
technique, would do it several times, at varying speeds, then the class
would pair up and practice it while the teacher would circulate and
point out problems/solutions as needed. Techniques start with uke (the
one who is thrown) acting as the attacker, and nage (the one who throws)
recieves the attack and turns it into a throw or a joint lock. You
spend alot of time learning how to fall ;) It makes for very exiting
practices to watch or participate in once you have trained for awhile as
there is lots of people flying around on the mat.
The emphasis was on seeing/feeling a technique, so there was very little
speaking/explaining done, which was great for some learning styles,
awful for others. As students grow more skilled techniques move from
the more static variations (begining the technique where someone has
grabbed you) to active ones (the attack is a strike, with or without a
weapon).
I feel like aikido developed my sense of physicality much more than any
of the more straight forward punch/kick/block stuff I've been exposed
to. I also enjoyed studying a form that focused on giving me the option
of appropriate level of response; most techniques can be executed
anywhere on the continuum of: with the protection of the attacker in
mind, through to the extremes of joint breaks/incapacitating strikes.
And training is just fun! You really feel like you and your partner are
helping each other ride the edge of your skill levels.
My experience with taekwondo was that class was usually less fun for me
than aikido; lots of time spent working on punches, kicks, blocks in
lines by yourself. Some time sparring (more fun) but even the sparring
has to be at lower energy that the aikido practice to prevent serious
injury, and even at the lower energy levels you get more injuries. I
had a friend who trained in a kung fu school through his black belt
level, and he really liked it but got sick of the level of pain you get
when practicing such aggressive techniques, even when being careful.
Again, sorry for the rambling. Hope it helps,
-emile
> After hearing so many recommendatins for martial arts training I'm looking for a place so my almost 6 yo son can try some classes. I've realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types of martial arts.(Bit of a long response below, sorry for the ramble.)
>
> Feelings clueless...any tips as to a "type" or what to look for at the place? Thanks.
I would spend a little bit of time thinking about what you are looking
for in the experience, then call places and ask about observing a class
or two. Definitely go and check out the vibe before you commit to
anything. One caution, if you're primarily interested in quick self
defense skills, consider just taking a self defense class. Any martial
art will probably improve your self defense skills in the long run, but
studying with that focus will probably not be the most rewarding way to
experience the art.
In terms of what you're looking for... often people think of martial
arts styles being arranged on a soft -> hard axis, where at the soft
extreme you might have something like tai chi (as far as I know it's
almost always non-contact), and on the hard end thinks like mui tai
(thai kick boxing), or jujitsu (in some Japanese arts there's a
distinction made between soft and hard forms using the -do or -jitsu
ending, so judo is the art studied for the throws and joint locks, while
jujitsu is the art studied for the joint breaks/more damaging forms).
What's available will usually depend on how urban an area you are in;
most places will have karate (pretty hard), judo (medium soft?) or
taekwondo (again, more hard) schools. If you're somewhere with a higher
population density, you might find some less mainstream stuff, like
capoiera (a Brazilian form somewhere between dance and martial arts,
they do some really crazy gymnastic kind of moves).
I've spent some time with karate (briefly, elementary school aged),
aikido (most of junior high, high school, several years worth off and on
since), and taekwondo (a year or so post college). So far aikido has
been by far my favorite. In aikido (at least in the dojo that I trained
at -- USAF western region affiliated) the bulk of training was done in
pairs. The teacher would invite a student to help him demonstrate a
technique, would do it several times, at varying speeds, then the class
would pair up and practice it while the teacher would circulate and
point out problems/solutions as needed. Techniques start with uke (the
one who is thrown) acting as the attacker, and nage (the one who throws)
recieves the attack and turns it into a throw or a joint lock. You
spend alot of time learning how to fall ;) It makes for very exiting
practices to watch or participate in once you have trained for awhile as
there is lots of people flying around on the mat.
The emphasis was on seeing/feeling a technique, so there was very little
speaking/explaining done, which was great for some learning styles,
awful for others. As students grow more skilled techniques move from
the more static variations (begining the technique where someone has
grabbed you) to active ones (the attack is a strike, with or without a
weapon).
I feel like aikido developed my sense of physicality much more than any
of the more straight forward punch/kick/block stuff I've been exposed
to. I also enjoyed studying a form that focused on giving me the option
of appropriate level of response; most techniques can be executed
anywhere on the continuum of: with the protection of the attacker in
mind, through to the extremes of joint breaks/incapacitating strikes.
And training is just fun! You really feel like you and your partner are
helping each other ride the edge of your skill levels.
My experience with taekwondo was that class was usually less fun for me
than aikido; lots of time spent working on punches, kicks, blocks in
lines by yourself. Some time sparring (more fun) but even the sparring
has to be at lower energy that the aikido practice to prevent serious
injury, and even at the lower energy levels you get more injuries. I
had a friend who trained in a kung fu school through his black belt
level, and he really liked it but got sick of the level of pain you get
when practicing such aggressive techniques, even when being careful.
Again, sorry for the rambling. Hope it helps,
-emile
diana jenner
Kristina Kahney wrote:
gym where our local homeschooling group had arranged a daytime class at
a substantial discount. For the most part, we all enjoyed the classes
there... until too many kids got injured during non-TKD activities
(Hannah broke her arm during TAG!). We discovered the teacher was
adding more PE-like activities for our /playground-deprived/ children
:::wretch::::
Recently we all moved to another gym, where the discount is not as deep,
but the Master is far more professional and has been involved in TKD
since he was a child in Korea. The kids are all unlearning the bogus
stuff from the other gym and newly learning TKD. This works great for
the kids who are very serious about acheiving their Black Belt goals (it
works good for my kids who go for the movement and socializing, too)
I'd check with the local group first -- the daytime discount is
incredible; next I'd check with the "Y."
:) diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>I've enrolled my kids in Tae Kwon Do (they're 6 & 8). We began at the
><<Have you ever had martial arts training?>>
>
>After hearing so many recommendatins for martial arts training I'm looking for a place so my almost 6 yo son can try some classes. I've realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types of martial arts.
>
>Feelings clueless...any tips as to a "type" or what to look for at the place? Thanks.
>
>Kristina
>
>
gym where our local homeschooling group had arranged a daytime class at
a substantial discount. For the most part, we all enjoyed the classes
there... until too many kids got injured during non-TKD activities
(Hannah broke her arm during TAG!). We discovered the teacher was
adding more PE-like activities for our /playground-deprived/ children
:::wretch::::
Recently we all moved to another gym, where the discount is not as deep,
but the Master is far more professional and has been involved in TKD
since he was a child in Korea. The kids are all unlearning the bogus
stuff from the other gym and newly learning TKD. This works great for
the kids who are very serious about acheiving their Black Belt goals (it
works good for my kids who go for the movement and socializing, too)
I'd check with the local group first -- the daytime discount is
incredible; next I'd check with the "Y."
:) diana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Janice Zindel
Kristina wrote:
realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types
of martial arts.
My three children and I have been involved in martial arts for the
past five years. Noah, now 14, earned his Black Belt a year ago,
and my 17 year old daughter earned her Black Belt a week ago. My
thirteen year old daughter will likely test for Black Belt in a few
months or less, and I hope to test for Black in three weeks. My
husband passed away two months ago, and I so wish he could have
lived to see Sarah and Linnea test; he was very proud of their
accomplishments.
I would highly recommend observing classes. Schools vary in the
amount of discipline they have. Does the instructor(s) LIVE the
tenets and pledges? Do they correct students respectfully and in a
positive fashion, or otherwise? Take a good, long, hard look at the
instructor(s), their background, and exactly the type of martial art
they teach. Our first instructor taught Tae Kwon Do with a little
Judo and Hapki-do, but eventually changed to Pankration (sp?) which
is far more physical and dangerous than some martial arts. Also,
how organized are they in their teaching. Our first instructor was
great at sparring, but teaching of techniques was very hit and miss,
and he would only test students when there were a lot ready; if you
were ready to test and no one else was, you waited quite awhile.
Our present instructor (formerly Asst. Instructor at previous school)
also teaches Tae Kwon Do with a little Judo & Hapki-do, and is very
organized in teaching of techniques, there is some repetition at
times, but that is how skills continue to improve.
Also, how many days a week do you plan to go to class. Once a week
is really not enough to remember what you are learning; twice is
minimum at our school, to keep skills up. More is better, especially
as the children get older. Our family? We are there five nights a
week. Monday through Thursday are regular classes. Fridays are
once a month classes such as Forms Class, monthly Testing night,
Black Belt Club, and Sparring night. She occasionally gets a
weapons class in, too.
Hope you find a good martial arts school that will fit your children
and family. -Jan Z., WI
> <<Have you ever had martial arts training?>>looking for a place so my almost 6 yo son can try some classes. I've
> After hearing so many recommendatins for martial arts training I'm
realized there are TONS of places and they all offer different types
of martial arts.
>the place? Thanks.
> Feelings clueless...any tips as to a "type" or what to look for at
My three children and I have been involved in martial arts for the
past five years. Noah, now 14, earned his Black Belt a year ago,
and my 17 year old daughter earned her Black Belt a week ago. My
thirteen year old daughter will likely test for Black Belt in a few
months or less, and I hope to test for Black in three weeks. My
husband passed away two months ago, and I so wish he could have
lived to see Sarah and Linnea test; he was very proud of their
accomplishments.
I would highly recommend observing classes. Schools vary in the
amount of discipline they have. Does the instructor(s) LIVE the
tenets and pledges? Do they correct students respectfully and in a
positive fashion, or otherwise? Take a good, long, hard look at the
instructor(s), their background, and exactly the type of martial art
they teach. Our first instructor taught Tae Kwon Do with a little
Judo and Hapki-do, but eventually changed to Pankration (sp?) which
is far more physical and dangerous than some martial arts. Also,
how organized are they in their teaching. Our first instructor was
great at sparring, but teaching of techniques was very hit and miss,
and he would only test students when there were a lot ready; if you
were ready to test and no one else was, you waited quite awhile.
Our present instructor (formerly Asst. Instructor at previous school)
also teaches Tae Kwon Do with a little Judo & Hapki-do, and is very
organized in teaching of techniques, there is some repetition at
times, but that is how skills continue to improve.
Also, how many days a week do you plan to go to class. Once a week
is really not enough to remember what you are learning; twice is
minimum at our school, to keep skills up. More is better, especially
as the children get older. Our family? We are there five nights a
week. Monday through Thursday are regular classes. Fridays are
once a month classes such as Forms Class, monthly Testing night,
Black Belt Club, and Sparring night. She occasionally gets a
weapons class in, too.
Hope you find a good martial arts school that will fit your children
and family. -Jan Z., WI
Kristina Kahney
Thank you to all who took the time to respond to my martial arts question. We visited one class tonight (Karate Jutsu) and my son LOVED it. It was like a light switched on in him! I can't tell you how grateful I am for the recommendations.
The school (they call it a "dojo"....new words for me to learn!) seems nice, but I think we're going to just have to try it and see how it goes- and be willing to look elsewhere if it doesn't work out. The class he took had a dad with his two sons and they were a homeschooling family which was kind of nice. My son most liked being in a class with older boys and the cool black uniforms they wear :)
The class was pretty small (maybe 6 kids) and there was a nice place for parents to watch through a glass window, and even a little toy room for younger siblings there. The place has a nice, family feel, but I'll be watching to see how the instructers interact with him as we continue.
Jan, I'm so sorry to read of the loss of your husband. I cannot imagine what a difficult time it must be for you and your children. My thoughts go out to you as you move forward in your new life.
Kristina
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The school (they call it a "dojo"....new words for me to learn!) seems nice, but I think we're going to just have to try it and see how it goes- and be willing to look elsewhere if it doesn't work out. The class he took had a dad with his two sons and they were a homeschooling family which was kind of nice. My son most liked being in a class with older boys and the cool black uniforms they wear :)
The class was pretty small (maybe 6 kids) and there was a nice place for parents to watch through a glass window, and even a little toy room for younger siblings there. The place has a nice, family feel, but I'll be watching to see how the instructers interact with him as we continue.
Jan, I'm so sorry to read of the loss of your husband. I cannot imagine what a difficult time it must be for you and your children. My thoughts go out to you as you move forward in your new life.
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]