[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:55:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:

I'm still working on strewing without valuing the "academic" activity
more. To me that's the ideal: to strew all sorts of math games,
books, games, toys and outings without silently cheering for any
particular choice.



------------------

Silently cheering isn't so harmful. It takes parents a long time to get
over their own school pride/shame/attachment/fear.

I was kinda thrilled when Marty asked for the Romance of the Three Kingdoms,
because it's historical (though it's a novel, it was written hundreds of
years ago, in China) and it's not an easy read. But I didn't say those things
to Marty. I got it out of my system by telling others. <g>

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/30/2004 11:29:25 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

I have started
to be the one to say, "How about we don't make any plans for Friday -
just stay home and putter around?" This is still me doing the
initiating.




--------------

anti-'nitiation?

You're initiating halts?
You're scheduling putzing? <g>

-=BUT - the goal is a satisfyingly-immersed-in-life present - not finding
ways to sort of trick a kid into learning something.-=-

Good description.
If the life is all a-swirl, they WILL learn, so you guarantee the learning
and you get, as side benefits, the family togetherness, common experiences,
and fun!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 8:37:18 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

An offer to go on an outing seems more
ephemeral. Should it be offered, say, three times? (Far in advance, a
week in advance and that morning?)



---------------

Do you mean if he says no the first time ask again a week in advance and
then again that morning!??

If I say "We should go to this cool thing!" and if a kid says "Yeah!" then
it's on the calendar, and I remind them when the time's near, and on the day
we go.

If my husband asks me far in advance if I want to go to dinner for my
anniversary, he doesn't then offer again a week in advance and offer again that
morning. Done is done!

-=-An offer to go on an outing seems more
ephemeral. Should it be offered, say, three times? (Far in advance, a
week in advance and that morning?)
=-

If his answer is "I don't know," then yeah, maybe ask again later. A second
"I don't know" is probably no.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 11:16:27 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
unschooler@... writes:

We've created an ADD society because of it.

--------------

eeek!

"Created"?

If my hobby were embroidery and I embroidered with all my free time and read
embroidery magazines and books, that wouldn't create much interaction with
my kids, nor stir much discussion, I'm afraid.

-=- Switching interests frequently is a
school thing. I don't think it happens naturally anywhere else in
the world.-=-

I think it happens seasonally, with gardening and cooking and yardwork and
crafts and such.
It happens in my life, because I immerse myself and then get tired of that
thing and want a balancing thing.

It's kind of like foods. I love potatoes, but haven't had any for over a
week. If I eat potatoes every day, I'll get really tired of them. I like lots
of things, and I binge, but if I stayed there constantly, it could turn
stagnant.

Sometimes I sew. Sometimes I watch Shakespeare. Sometimes I do both at the
same time, and sometimes I do neither for three months. That's not schooly.
That's the rhythm of a busy life.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

I'm not sure where this fits in, but someone mentioned taking
another kid (rather than your own)to go do the things you want to
do, if you dont want to go alone and your kid isnt interested.

I had an interesting time this week. Seamus was away visiting his
dad, and i decided to spend some "quality" time with my niece who is
9 yo. I never spend time alone with her. She's at that age,
the "cusp of womanhood" <g> where spending time with her older aunts
makes her feel all grown up and "in the loop" (i have two sisters
and we are all very close.)

I got to go to Borders and just hang out! I never get to do that
with seamus, he doesnt have the same book-worship thing i've got. My
niece is TOTALLY into books (one of those kids that reads a book a
day, and spends hours in her room reading.) I even bought her a
couple books (she also had the gift card from my brother), and she
was sooo grateful like i'd given her gold. We had fun reading the
back of book jackets out loud to one another, with feeling, which
apparently no one else does, because we got some strange looks!

We then went to Pier One Import, which is another place i dont take
seamus (the saying "Bull in a China Shop" comes to mind)because he
hates going there and everything is so fragile...and we had so much
fun! looking at all the little pretty things i got her some
clearance xmas ornaments that were beaded and so pretty, and she was
sooo happy at having all this attention. I was happy at having
company who was pleased to do all this shopping with me without
asking all the time "are we done yet?"

We went to the pet store to look at the animals and buy cat treats,
and went to lunch. The previous day we went to see A Series of
Unfortunate Events (and to the bookstore too, no way would seamus
go to a bookstore with me two days in a row. In fact we went to
borders twice and waldenbooks, all within 24 hours!)Now i know who
i'm taking when i have the desire to just go hang out and explore a
bookstore. In fact, i'm thinking of planning a trip, just with my
niece, to the huge (warehouse sized)used bookstore in Detroit. I
think she'd die...she's never seen such a thing.

Anyhow, its nice to switch kids once and awhile!


Katherine

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 2:13:13 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
queenjane555@... writes:

I was happy at having
company who was pleased to do all this shopping with me without
asking all the time "are we done yet?" ---------
=========

Sounds like a really cool day for both of you!

None of my kids are really shoppers. Holly gets tired of it before I do,
always. Luckily that's one thing I don't mind doing by myself (thinking now of
thrift stores...).

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 5:10:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

I'd rather discuss politics
with an informed adult who remembers the last 5 presidential elections.


---------------------

How does a person become an informed adult, though? It has to start
somewhere.

Are all discussions purely for your enjoyment? Sometimes it's courteous to
include someone just because he's there. I like to talk about music with
someone who remembers the 60's, but when someone wasn't born until the 80's, I
don't mind clarifying references, or naming one of the group's songs to give
them a point of reference or something.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Hill

** Are all discussions purely for your enjoyment? Sometimes it's
courteous to
include someone just because he's there.**

Good point.

I wouldn't start a discussion with my kid if I didn't think he would
enjoy it, unless I had a strong need for information from him.

I'm considering the scenario when I'm reading a book and finding an idea
or fact that I (at my advanced age) find interesting. While I'm doing
this, it's most likely that my son is watching TV or playing a computer
game. Does he want to hear me say "Here's an interesting anecdote.
Apparently John Kerry has trouble deciding what to order in a
restaurant. Maybe the flip-flopping rap wasn't as unfair as I
thought." How about "The proposed social security reforms look like
they are really going to shaft stay-at-home moms that end up
divorced."? Or "Thomas Jefferson really is my kind of guy. I really
like this quote of his about his perception of Jesus." Or "This study
of media bias in the early Seventies had really screwy methodology."
These are all things that I remember really lighting up my brain in the
last month that I did not think would be interesting to my ten year old kid.

I'm already sleepy tonight, but tomorrow I can stick post-it notes in
the "good parts" of what I'm reading and drop them into conversation
sometime when James seems to be in the mood to talk. (Those of you that
have talkative, extraverted kids should imagine a different attitude at
my house. <g>) And I can review them and prioritize them first so that
the seemingly dullest topics are at the bottom of the list.

If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was interested
in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I would do
that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. (Ahem, sad but
true.) Does that seem like a reasonable tactic for enhancing unschooling?

Betsy

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was interested
in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I would do
that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. (Ahem, sad but
true.) Does that seem like a reasonable tactic for enhancing
unschooling?>>>>

Taken in the same spirit as watching the tv show they love with them once or
twice to understand what *they* like about it, even if you don't, I think it
sounds very Unschooling-enhancing. Of course, if it turns out to be so
soul-numbingly stultifying that you can hardly bear to turn the next page,
perhaps asking for a summary from the kid might be better. Hey there's an
idea - asking questions as conversation starters - depending on the kid's
personality of course.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.822 / Virus Database: 560 - Release Date: 12/22/2004

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 9:29:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

tomorrow I can stick post-it notes in
the "good parts" of what I'm reading and drop them into conversation
sometime when James seems to be in the mood to talk. (Those of you that
have talkative, extraverted kids should imagine a different attitude at
my house. <g>) And I can review them and prioritize them first so that
the seemingly dullest topics are at the bottom of the list.



--------

That sounds kind of horrible to me.
Horrible in a strained and artificial way, I mean.

-=If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was interested
in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I would do
that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. -=-

There's something between accepting a chasm between you and reading a book
about a topic he's interested in. There are magazine articles and webpages
you could read about things he's interested in, and show him the good parts.
Don't work it into the conversation in a weird way, just say "Hey, did you
already know this about Halo II?" or whatever, maybe.

-=-If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was interested
in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I would do
that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. (Ahem, sad but
true.) Does that seem like a reasonable tactic for enhancing unschooling?
-=-

Not if it seems stilted and false to you (like trying to impress a guy).
But what if you were 20 and had a boyfriend who loved hockey? Between "hockey
sucks" and immersing yourself in all things hockey, there would be a balance
point for you.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/31/2004 10:30:08 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was interested
in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I would do
that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. (Ahem, sad but
true.) Does that seem like a reasonable tactic for enhancing unschooling?



~~~
I happen to think that if you could find *nothing* in your life that was
interesting to your son, then yeah, you should probably find something to read
that you could discuss with him.

The other thing that struck me...and the John Kerry thing cracked me
up...When you read something like that, take steps backwards from what lights your
fire until you find something that will be relevant to your son.

When I was a senior in high school, I got in a huge argument with my history
teacher, during class. I almost got suspended over it. I sat there and
argued how irrelevant whatever he was saying was to me. This was a particularly
stodgy old skinny-60s-tie history teacher. But I could find no relevance to
my life to what he was trying to tell us about. His only defense was that
"someday" history would mean more to me.

Well, he was right. Certain history does mean something to me, now. What I
was trying to get him to see was that I needed to be able to *apply* what he
was saying in order to understand and he was doing a piss-poor job of
finding relevance to the life of an 17 yo girl in 1979.

When Will and I talk about historical things, I try to relate it to his
experience in some way. Our house is 110 years old, which is usually a good
reference point. When he was younger, I used the year his Poppy was born (1935)
or when I was born (1962) or when his big brother was born (1982). Sometimes
I say, "When this house was brand new..." and I draw him a word picture
about what we're talking about. In order to draw that picture, I have to take
step backwards into what I know until I reach what he knows (not always a
linear progression) and find that common ground.

Of course, he doesn't always see the common ground, or the steps of how I
got from here to there. But he's been exposed to something *beyond* what he
know, and maybe he's put another hook on his model of the universe. Only he
can tell you that.

Will and I have had great fun being Lemony Snicket fans, and sharing other
books together, and being interested in baseball together. So, maybe just
developing an interest together would be helpful, too.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/05 6:47:08 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< Will and I have had great fun being Lemony Snicket fans, and sharing other

books together, and being interested in baseball together. So, maybe just
developing an interest together would be helpful, too.
>>

Oh yeah! A new mutual interest might be cool.

There are hiking clubs, and various societies involving gardening and birds
and astronomy and history. Bonuses: Out of the house, new people, possible
connections to who other things not imagined before.

I read aloud the best paragraph or two from an article in Smithsonian or
National Geographic sometimes. Nobody else wants to read those in full, just me.
Once, though, I read a little bit, and ended up reading the whole article
aloud to Keith and Marty. It was about a big carbon dioxide burb a lake in
Africa makes once in a while, and it kills all the people an animals in the vally,
but it wasn't until this last time that anyone figured out what did it.

We don't have a common interest in death by carbon dioxide, but it was a
shared thing, and we have that knowledge in common now, and can connect other
things to it down the road. It has at LEAST to do with people thinking their
actions caused normal earth-stuff. No sense making sacrifices to a lake so it
won't kill you once you know that it wasn't a lake-god all cranky at something
you did or didn't do.

It was just a little thing, but it was a real thing and not a "kid" thing, to
read that article. There was no follow-up, no post-test, nothing but what it
was. What it was, though, was one of very many similar moments.

Sandra

Holly Furgason

All this seems so contrived to me. Maybe unschooling just came
easily for me so I don't understand how it can be "enhanced". I
learn; the kids learn. I do; the kids do. I share; the kids share.
Sometimes we're together on this; sometimes we're not. We all
discuss because it comes naturally. I would never read a book as a
good conversation starter nor would I come up with questions to draw
them into a discussion before hand.

I think I'm also having a problem with strewing. It seems to me
people are talking about strewing items to catch the interest of a
child so that they might learn something new. If I bring home
anything that would interest a family member, whether it's something
they're interested in now or not, I tell them. If I bring home items
I know they're not interested in but hope that they will be, that's
my issue. I'd feel I was being disrespectful and I wouldn't be
surprised if my kids chose to have no interest in such an underhanded
affair.

Materials in my house are strewn because we (all of us) are always in
the process of doing things. Right now there's a screen printing kit
on the dining room table, JRR Tolkien quiz book on the end table, a
paper airplane book and planes in various stages of development on
the living room floor, a guitar in the corner with music off the
Internet and the rock tumbler going in the kitchen (where we can't
really hear it). I guess we don't have room for items I hope someone
will be interested in.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts with an edge!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<<<<If I intentionally read books to myself about topics he was
interested
> in I might have more good conversations starters. I suppose I
would do
> that if I was 20 years old and trying to impress a guy. (Ahem, sad
but
> true.) Does that seem like a reasonable tactic for enhancing
> unschooling?>>>>
>
> Taken in the same spirit as watching the tv show they love with
them once or
> twice to understand what *they* like about it, even if you don't, I
think it
> sounds very Unschooling-enhancing. Of course, if it turns out to be
so
> soul-numbingly stultifying that you can hardly bear to turn the
next page,
> perhaps asking for a summary from the kid might be better. Hey
there's an
> idea - asking questions as conversation starters - depending on the
kid's
> personality of course.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.822 / Virus Database: 560 - Release Date: 12/22/2004

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/05 9:22:46 AM, unschooler@... writes:

<< I think I'm also having a problem with strewing. It seems to me

people are talking about strewing items to catch the interest of a

child so that they might learn something new. -=-

Or have fun, or be surprised, or have a conversation piece, or for them to
think of something altogether different to do with the thing/stuff/whatever.


-=-If I bring home

anything that would interest a family member, whether it's something

they're interested in now or not, I tell them. -=-

If I bring something for a particular person, I give it to her or him.
If I bring something cool into the house because it's a cool thing we didn't
have before, or something that hasn't been out for a while, I just put it out,
just as people have (kinda boringly) for years put magazines or "coffeetable
books" out (on coffeetables), or glass paperweights on end tables.

-=- If I bring home items

I know they're not interested in but hope that they will be, that's

my issue. I'd feel I was being disrespectful and I wouldn't be

surprised if my kids chose to have no interest in such an underhanded

affair. >>

Why would something they're not interested in be worth bringing home? And
how do you know they're not interested in something before they see it?
Someone who isn't interested in light physics as far as you know might have an hour
of fun with an air pig. It's all about reflections and refractions, but who
cares? We didn't use those words. It's been on one table or another for
months, and ever guest who comes in plays with it. At some point it will be packed
up, and at some other point(s) it will be brought back out, and someday one
of the kids will take it away to some other house.

Sandra

Elizabeth Hill

** When I was a senior in high school, I got in a huge argument with my
history
teacher, during class. I almost got suspended over it. I sat there and
argued how irrelevant whatever he was saying was to me. This was a
particularly
stodgy old skinny-60s-tie history teacher. But I could find no
relevance to
my life to what he was trying to tell us about. His only defense was that
"someday" history would mean more to me.

Well, he was right. Certain history does mean something to me, now.
What I
was trying to get him to see was that I needed to be able to *apply*
what he
was saying in order to understand and he was doing a piss-poor job of
finding relevance to the life of an 17 yo girl in 1979. **

Hi, Tuck --

I like your insight, and the image of you as a teenager.

And it's especially relevant to me, because my husband teaches 14 year
old students. When he's planning lessons and sometimes bouncing ideas
off of me, he has an awareness that many of the students have their
deflector shields up and find most abstract stuff to be painfully
uninteresting. Being unschooled, James is less closed to incoming
information, but I may get stuck with the selection "filter" that my
husband uses for his classroom.

** Of course, he doesn't always see the common ground, or the steps of
how I
got from here to there. But he's been exposed to something *beyond*
what he
know, and maybe he's put another hook on his model of the universe.
Only he
can tell you that. **

I really like the "hook" model of learning. Things that leap across
from one set of clumps to another are the most fascinating for me. With
a much sparser set of hooks, my son is going to get a different level of
hook-up response from stuff that I have to say, though?

I wouldn't deliberately expose my child to something IF I thought he
would not find interesting. Deliberate exposure seems kind of schooly.
I wouldn't consciously promote rounding out his knowledge in areas he
seemed unenthusiastic about. But I *would* share something that related
to things that I know he IS interested in. "Look -- they're going to
broadcast a Simpson's marathon." "There's a cat in our backyard."
"It's hailing!" (Maybe I've just failed to adjust these "upwards" as he
has grown more sophisticated.) The possible discrepancy between my
behavior and the suggested behavior is if I find something that is only
borderline interesting, when we aren't presently talking, then I'm not
likely to pass that information on to him right then as a statement or
question or comment. That doesn't mean it might not come out later, IF
we were talking about something related. But, I *am* looking for advice
on this issue because we don't have many conversations, especially not
long conversations, that are sparked by ideas that come up watching TV.
(Yes, I do comment on TV. Usually brief comments.) Maybe conversations
are getting squelched by a lack of listening skills on my part.
Probably he finds it easier to think when I'm not talking. <g> (Of
course.) Perhaps he even finds it easier to think when *he* isn't
talking, either.

This may be rooted in an old emotional issue for me. I feel I may have
internalized the idea that my dad wasn't very interested in what I had
to say as a kid. (Squirming and looking away and not responding were
the kind of clues he gave me.) So, now, thinking that what I have to
say is uninteresting, I may not start very many conversations with my
kid. So I'm perpetuating the problem, yet for opposite reasons.

Thanks to all of you who have hung in for this much gazing at my navel.
I'm (ironically) pretty sure that it hasn't been very interesting. Feel
free to delete!

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/05 9:55:01 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< I really like the "hook" model of learning. Things that leap across

from one set of clumps to another are the most fascinating for me. With

a much sparser set of hooks, my son is going to get a different level of

hook-up response from stuff that I have to say, though? >>

He's not dependent on you for dots to connect, but the more you know about
what he knows, the more easily you can provide him dots (as it were, tid-bits,
exposures, suggestions) from your side. Common experience breeds more common
experience, and the more interface you have, the easier it will be.

When I see a friend every week, we have LOTS to talk about. When there's a
friend I haven't talked to for a year, there's less to talk about. Seems odd,
but it works with kids too. I think it's one of the main reasons kids in
school and their parents can get to where they hardly communicate at all, and
can't have an honest, candid conversation but resort to speaking in preformatted
dialogs.

-=-I wouldn't consciously promote rounding out his knowledge in areas he

seemed unenthusiastic about.-=-

I have, but it's easy to do from the context of their own interests, and it's
easy to be subtle, so that I'm only amusing myself. And I learned a long
time ago (not easily, but long time <g>) not to take it personally and get my
feelings hurt if some song or movie or game that seems GREAT to me is not
interesting to my kid. I didn't like it the first few dozen times, and then I
learned. <g> But WAY more dozens of times they have been interested, so I kept
making suggestions and showing them the good parts. No kid needs to watch ALL of
Ben Hur just to see the chariot race, for instance.

-=-This may be rooted in an old emotional issue for me. I feel I may have

internalized the idea that my dad wasn't very interested in what I had

to say as a kid. (Squirming and looking away and not responding were

the kind of clues he gave me.) So, now, thinking that what I have to

say is uninteresting, I may not start very many conversations with my

kid. So I'm perpetuating the problem, yet for opposite reasons.-=-

That's possible. So maybe keep your comments really short and only the good
parts (just the chariot race <g>), and if you get a good response, let THAT
be your message, not memories of your dad's distraction. You're not talking
to your dad now.

-=Thanks to all of you who have hung in for this much gazing at my navel.

I'm (ironically) pretty sure that it hasn't been very interesting. -=-

But there are things you can do to feel better, and one might be to realize
you don't have to be the most fascinating and mesmerizing orator of the age to
pass on something cool.



Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/2005 10:54:56 AM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

I like your insight, and the image of you as a teenager.



~~~

You should have seen me. I was something else! ;)

~~~

>>I wouldn't deliberately expose my child to something IF I thought he
would not find interesting. Deliberate exposure seems kind of schooly.
I wouldn't consciously promote rounding out his knowledge in areas he
seemed unenthusiastic about. But I *would* share something that related
to things that I know he IS interested in.<<

~~~

Yeah, deliberate exposure is something schooly. But honest-to-goodness
connections from your point of view to something he definitely has in his point
of view is not deliberate exposure. It's having a relationship with your kid.
It's being excited about the connection and helping him make the
connection, too. Maybe he'll only make the connection halfway, or maybe he won't see
the connection at all. You talked to your kid, though, and you shared some
enthusiasm.

Will and I talk in the car, mostly. Well, he talks to me all the time he's
in my presence, but I'm not interested in a lot of what he tells me about
Spongebob, so I tune out sometimes. (When he really wants me to listen, he says
so. Otherwise, he recognizes that I'm not so interested and he'll find
something else to talk about!) But I am interested when talks to me about the
music he's listened to recently, and I try to find some relevance to Linkin
Park in my life. I told him about the Lincoln Park Zoo in Chicago, where I went
a lot as a kid, and how I wonder if the Linkin Park band has anything to do
with the zoo or Chicago. So we make connections to each other in that way.

I can see the influence of the way my parents treated us as kids in my
parenting, too. My mother didn't want to listen to arguments, ever. Her word was
law, and we couldn't be right. Unfortunately, I inherited the same trait.
I temper mine (I hope!). I still see where the same situations that I
encountered with my mother are being recreated with my children. Best I can do is
try to be aware and minimize the impact.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 16:22:39 -0000 "Holly Furgason"
<unschooler@...> writes:
> I think I'm also having a problem with strewing. It seems to me
> people are talking about strewing items to catch the interest of a
> child so that they might learn something new. If I bring home
> anything that would interest a family member, whether it's something
> they're interested in now or not, I tell them. If I bring home items
> I know they're not interested in but hope that they will be, that's
> my issue. I'd feel I was being disrespectful and I wouldn't be
> surprised if my kids chose to have no interest in such an
> underhanded affair.

I've always felt exactly the same way. I don't think this "strewing"
thing is a necessary part of unschooling - at least, we've been happily
unschooling for years without it.

Things don't just "appear" on a table here. That would be off-putting to
both of us. We like knowing what's here, and we're not big on surprises
appearing in our living room. And yeah, there's not much room for
strewing stuff because all available surfaces are filled with stuff we're
using already...

Maybe if I had a kid who was sort of at loose ends and wasn't into
directly talking about it, and who didn't mind things appearing on
tables, I could see it. I have the kid who (after 6 months of rereading
comic bookcs) will say, "I need something to read. What do you think I
would like?", and I'll pull down a half-dozen books that I think she
might like and hand them to her, and she'll look through them and read
one or two... or not... Curently she's working her way through both Noel
Streatfeild's "Shoes" series and Orson Scott Card's "Ender" series,
depending on her mood at the moment.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/05 10:54:44 AM, freeform@... writes:

<< And yeah, there's not much room for
strewing stuff because all available surfaces are filled with stuff we're
using already... >>

Then stuff's "strewn" already.

Some people live in houses that look like they're waiting for the magazine
photographers, and a really stark environment isn't ideal for the random
sparking of creative idea-getting.

-=-
Maybe if I had a kid who was sort of at loose ends and wasn't into
directly talking about it, and who didn't mind things appearing on
tables, I could see it.-=-

Or maybe if you had several kids who liked surprises and new stuff.

Maybe kids who are more still and quiet don't need the newness and input as
much as the more jabbery hyper ones?

Sandra

Holly Furgason

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> If I bring something for a particular person, I give it to her or
> him. If I bring something cool into the house because it's a cool
> thing we didn't have before, or something that hasn't been out for
> a while, I just put it out, just as people have (kinda boringly)
> for years put magazines or "coffeetable books" out (on
coffeetables), or glass paperweights on end tables.

I tell my family if I bring home something interesting. Just
different family dynamics, I guess.

But- the point seems to have been to put things out in hopes that
they'll become interested. The advice goes out to newbies and people
who are struggling to get unschooling going or "enhance" it. To me,
it's contrived, manipulating and disrespectful- all antithetical to
unschooling.

> Why would something they're not interested in be worth bringing
home? And
> how do you know they're not interested in something before they see
it?

Considering that I have limitations of time, money and space, I can
only bring home so much. I'm not limiting in that, if they have
never shown an interest, I don't think they'll like it. Living a
block from one thrift store and less than a mile from 4 others,
there's a whole lot that comes in that we never knew existed or ever
thought we'd be interested in. But I don't buy things that I know
they're not interested in hopes that it will *spark* something
because they don't seem involved enough.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts with an edge!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/05 1:37:15 PM, unschooler@... writes:

<< The advice goes out to newbies and people

who are struggling to get unschooling going or "enhance" it. To me,

it's contrived, manipulating and disrespectful- all antithetical to

unschooling. >>

When people ask me how I do it, I tell them what I do. It's just one piece
of advice, and everyone else here has the opportunity to give their own, but I
don't think it's contrived, manipulative or disrespectful, and I'm sure it's
not antithetical to unschooling as it works at my house and at some others.

If I put an article in the bathroom because I know Marty will read it when
he's in there, and Holly might pick it up and take it into her room, either they
do or they don't. I never ask. Sometimes one will come and say "That was so
cool!" and want to talk about it. I don't call a family meeting and say
"I've put an article on Danny Elfman in the bathroom, because I hadn't known he'd
composed some of the music for PeeWee's Playhouse, and I thought you'd be
interested." I just put it there, often when they're asleep or gone.

-=-But I don't buy things that I know

they're not interested in hopes that it will *spark* something

because they don't seem involved enough.-=-

If someone were really worried that her child seemed uninterested in science,
I wouldn't fault her a bit if she got a microscope and some cool slides and
left it on the kitchen table, or better yet--one of those that hooks to the
computer so what you see in there shows on the screen. But I would also play
with it myself and probably squeal "OH MY GOSH!" We play with the microscopes
every time we go to the natural science museum, so I know my kids would be
interested, but we keep a membership there and that's where we play microscopes.
But someone, especially one whose kids had been in school and might have
learned things like "science is stupid," who worries could effectively plant
interesting stuff where her kids would see it.

That was one of the main "methods" of the open classroom, a method John Holt
and his contemporaries promoted in the late 60s and early 70s. If there are
interesting things for kids to mess around with, they learn without the teacher
droning on or explaining. They learn by their own discovery and
experimentation and play.

In some states homeschoolers are required to report subject matter. Texas
and New Mexico aren't among them, but there are people here from those other
states.

When my husband brings things home from work that we'd find cool, I don't
feel manipulated. I feel like he thought of me. He did that before we had kids.
I save thing for my friends to see, and I buy them things from thrift stores
I think they'd be interested in.

I don't see any evil manipulation in it at all.

Sandra

pam sorooshian

On Jan 1, 2005, at 8:59 AM, Elizabeth Hill wrote:

> With
> a much sparser set of hooks, my son is going to get a different level
> of
> hook-up response from stuff that I have to say, though?

I'm missing why you think his array of hooks is sparser, Betsy.

He could be in school where his brain is turned off and resistant and
the teachers are under the mistaken impression that they are providing
hundreds of hooks but, truth is, very few of those hooks are remotely
permanent.

My niece is 17 - senior in high school - honors student. I just gave
her a ride somewhere and, just making small talk, asked her what her
plans were for the weekend. She said Sunday evening she was going to
study for a test. "Why Sunday evening?" (She's been on vacation for
over 2 weeks.) Because the test is on Monday and she didn't want to
study "too soon" or she'd forget most of it before the test. Apparently
even Saturday (today) would be "too soon."

-pam

pam sorooshian

On Jan 1, 2005, at 9:51 AM, freeform@... wrote:

> I've always felt exactly the same way. I don't think this "strewing"
> thing is a necessary part of unschooling - at least, we've been happily
> unschooling for years without it.

I think maybe you're rigidly interpreting the idea of "strewing the
child's life with interesting stuff" as only making things appear
unexpectedly in front of them without you saying anything? Like when I
go up into our game storage and pull out games nobody has played with
for a long time and just put them out where people will see them?

I think that's just one style of "strewing."

Another is when I'm reading something on the internet or in the
newspaper and I say, "Hey - listen to this!" And I read some little bit
of something that I think they might find interesting. If they are very
interested, they might want to hear more or read themselves. Or not.
But I'm "strewing" opportunities in front of them when I do this.

Another is when I'm out shopping and I buy something I think they'll
enjoy. I was at a 99 cent store and saw a big package of different
colored neon post-it notes. I bought a couple of packs and brought them
home and said - "Here you guys, I got these if anybody has any use for
them. I'll put them here." That is "strewing" things.

ALL the things we do to offer our children interesting experiences and
objects and opportunities are "strewing their world."

Sometimes we just put something out where they'll find it and sometimes
we'll say "Here, look at this," but I don't see a big difference. Lots
of times, in fact, I put something out, fully intending to tell someone
about it, and they discover it before I get around to it. Strewing -
whichever way it happens, imo.

-pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/1/2005 6:44:47 PM Central Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

She said Sunday evening she was going to
study for a test. "Why Sunday evening?" (She's been on vacation for
over 2 weeks.) Because the test is on Monday and she didn't want to
study "too soon" or she'd forget most of it before the test. Apparently
even Saturday (today) would be "too soon."



~~~

I have recently personally experienced this phenomenon. I took a new job,
and they made me sit through 6 weeks of boring and dull training, with tests.
At the end there are two finals (different subjects). If I didn't pass the
finals, I didn't get to keep the job.

However, I knew once I got through the training, all the information I would
need while I'm on the job would be at my fingertips in a book or a computer,
or from the person at the next desk. I had been actually doing the job
under supervision, and not studying as I had the first few weeks. I was actually
doing the job. When I was notified I would be taking the final, I decided
to cram for it as soon as I realized how many of the minute details I had
forgotten, or simply didn't use in the course of the job. Yet, I needed to know
them ALL for these several moments in time where it would all be put to the
test. So, I crammed for the finals test, and I passed.

Shortly after that on the same day, they put me back on the job, which I had
been doing already, it was starkly clear that I would soon forget the
information I crammed in. I remeber what I need for the job, and WHERE TO FIND IT
when I need it, and I'm learning that better as I need it.

It's the binge and purge method. I thought I had forgotten how to do that.
Apparently it's like riding a bike.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jan 1, 2005, at 12:35 PM, Holly Furgason wrote:

> I tell my family if I bring home something interesting. Just
> different family dynamics, I guess.
>

Maybe you're way more organized <G>. If I get a new game or cd or book
or puzzle - I leave it on the coffee table in the living room where
somebody will for sure find it. Otherwise, I might leave it in a bag
and forget I even ever got it.

> But- the point seems to have been to put things out in hopes that
> they'll become interested. The advice goes out to newbies and people
> who are struggling to get unschooling going or "enhance" it. To me,
> it's contrived, manipulating and disrespectful- all antithetical to
> unschooling.

Put things out because we think they might BE interested.
This is doing a kindness to others in the family, not contrived or
manipulative.

We get TIME magazine but I don't read it much. When there is an article
that my dh thinks I'll like, he'll open the magazine to that page and
leave it on my chair. Should I feel that he is manipulating me and
being disrespectful? He's being thoughtful and showing that he's
thinking of me and it is sweet and I appreciate it.

When I am rummaging in a cupboard and run across the pattern blocks and
I put them on the dining room table and something notices them there
and plays happily with them for several hours, how the heck am I doing
anything disrespectful?

-pam

Elizabeth Hill

** When people ask me how I do it, I tell them what I do. It's just
one piece
of advice, and everyone else here has the opportunity to give their own,
but I
don't think it's contrived, manipulative or disrespectful, and I'm sure
it's
not antithetical to unschooling as it works at my house and at some
others.**

Right. I feel that strewing does work for me, when I remember to do
it. (It isn't always something I think about.) A strewn object (kit,
game, book, or thingumabob) quietly asks "do you find me interesting",
but it doesn't shout and even better, it doesn't interrupt. It's
quieter than me coming home and trumpeting "Lookie, lookie what I
found. Do you want to play with this now?" (You might phrase it
differently, of course.)

I agree that strewing can feel unnatural. But I think if it's done in a
calm and detatched way, I don't see it something that can do harm.
(Unless you strew the back seat of the car with reading material and
someone gets carsick! <g>)

My son has kind of a perfectionist thing where he likes privacy where
he's learning something, esp. if he might struggle or make mistakes.
What he wants may be the opposite of what a more sociable kid would
want. A sociable kid might strongly prefer that a new game come
attached to the hand of a parent who is available to play right now. My
kid tends to say "no" first and sidle up to stuff later.

At my house, strewing isn't always about buying new stuff or thrift
store stuff. It's also about remembering stuff we already have in the
back of closets that my son may have forgotten and making it visible.
Some stuff that wasn't interesting two years ago might be interesting
now. It's certainly possible for him to enjoy something that he doesn't
recall.

I'm not talking about workbooks or not-fun learning games or yucky
stuff. This is not about tricking my child into being interested in
things that he inherently finds uninteresting. This is more about
keeping the scenery and the environment stimulating. I think that
clutter that is constantly present, even really fun clutter in really
bright boxes, can end up being tuned out and overlooked.

Betsy

[email protected]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 17:16:15 -0800 pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
writes:
> Another is when I'm reading something on the internet or in the
> newspaper and I say, "Hey - listen to this!" And I read some little
bit
> of something that I think they might find interesting. If they are
very
> interested, they might want to hear more or read themselves. Or not.
> But I'm "strewing" opportunities in front of them when I do this.

I guess the difference for me is that I do this as part of living - I
read stuff aloud to my dad, too, or anyone else who happens to be around,
just because I think it's cool stuff. My dad and brother and I
occasionally clip and send articles to each other, from JAMA or the
Honolulu newspaper or whatever. I don't do it, though, because I'm hoping
they'll learn something new or it will pique their interest in a topic -
there's no agenda to it, I guess. It's the agenda part that feels wrong
to me. And sometimes people talk about "strewing" as a way to "hook"
kids, to expose them to things or to get them interested in a topic....
and other times people talk about it simply as sharing things with your
children that you think they'll enjoy or find interesting. I'm
comfortable with the latter but not the former.

Ariel Gore said, "Children need interesting mothers", and I've found
that to be a good unschooling tenet (feel free to substitute the primary
caregiver of your choice).

Dar

[email protected]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:09:28 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> If someone were really worried that her child seemed uninterested in
science,
> I wouldn't fault her a bit if she got a microscope and some cool
> slides and
> left it on the kitchen table, or better yet--one of those that hooks
> to the
> computer so what you see in there shows on the screen. But I would
> also play
> with it myself and probably squeal "OH MY GOSH!"

And that seems manipulative to me. You've started by separating "science"
out from life and turned it into something done with certain tools, and
then you've acquired things and used them not because you're interested,
but because you're worried that your child is uninterested. And
squealing is sort of the icing on the cake? How is this not trying to
manipulate a child?

I don't think I'd fault anyone, but I wouldn't consider it unschooling,
either. Why is it a problem for me if my child isn't doing a lot of
science-things? I'd look at my assumptions, rather than trying to get my
child interested in something.

Dar

diana jenner

I *do* this <bg> even if it's just to the room-at-large... I've had
those *strewn words* come back in later conversations by the kids - and
they're 6 & 8!! Especially three of the four examples you gave: we did
the whole political circuit this summer/fall, my kids would get the
Kerry reference; we're on Social Security, so they get that; AND Thomas
Jefferson is one of our heroes (homeschooled himself and often
considered "of UU mindset"), they know him, too; (I'm not big on
methodology, but if it was interesting, I'd share!)-- ya never know what
they may not have interest in *yet* [not yet exposed] that you may spark
by one of your outbursts <bg>
:) diana

Elizabeth Hill wrote:

>I'm considering the scenario when I'm reading a book and finding an idea
>or fact that I (at my advanced age) find interesting. While I'm doing
>this, it's most likely that my son is watching TV or playing a computer
>game. Does he want to hear me say "Here's an interesting anecdote.
>Apparently John Kerry has trouble deciding what to order in a
>restaurant. Maybe the flip-flopping rap wasn't as unfair as I
>thought." How about "The proposed social security reforms look like
>they are really going to shaft stay-at-home moms that end up
>divorced."? Or "Thomas Jefferson really is my kind of guy. I really
>like this quote of his about his perception of Jesus." Or "This study
>of media bias in the early Seventies had really screwy methodology."
>These are all things that I remember really lighting up my brain in the
>last month that I did not think would be interesting to my ten year old kid.
>


--
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Danielle Conger

======

<< The advice goes out to newbies and people who are struggling to get unschooling going or "enhance" it. To me, it's contrived, manipulating and disrespectful- all antithetical to unschooling. >>

When people ask me how I do it, I tell them what I do. It's just one piece of advice, and everyone else here has the opportunity to give their own, but I don't think it's contrived, manipulative or disrespectful, and I'm sure it's not antithetical to unschooling as it works at my house and at some others.

======

Here's my most recent descriptions of what I do--not a bit of it is
disrespecting my children, imo or theirs. Granted, my children are
young, but I've been unschooling, as in officially declared, for three
years now--not veteran, but not newbie either.

Strewing, for me, is all about having cool and interesting things in the
house. If I see something I think is cool, I pick it up.

I think that "strewing" is a way of creating a rich environment from
which children can freely pick and choose. It is *not* a way of slyly
constructing a curriculum that includes all the requisite subjects, like
math, science, literature, history, etc. Does that difference make
sense? Some folks hear the word "strew" and think, "oh, okay, so I can
strew that science book or math book or classic." That, in my mind, is
not what strewing is about; that's replacing a canned curriculum with a
manipulative one.

Some things I strew could be considered "schooly," but mostly they're
just interesting. I can remember quite clearly in elementary school,
back when we were in the same classroom all day with the same people:
there was one girl identified as "gifted" before the "gifted and
talented" program existed. She was allowed to go to the back of the room
and learn things like typing and other stuff that seemed so cool, but
which we weren't allowed to do. I also remember the G&T kids getting to
go on archeology digs while the rest of us stayed in school. The things
they were doing were still "educational" but they were intriguing in a
way that rote math and reading were not. This is the way I think about
the schooly stuff we have around the house: it's there because it's
cool, not because it will offer a specific lesson or a specific skill.
It's there to explore because someone may find it interesting, not
because it's a required subject.

We got the kids an elementary chemistry set for Christmas, which I know
will prove to be one of their favorite gifts of all because they're into
that kind of thing. I've found it really interesting and enlightening to
watch and analyze what about this gift is schooly vs. unschooly, and it
illustrates quite well the difference that I'm trying to get at. What
I've realized is that I'm not going let dh use it anymore with the kids.
;) He's just not far enough along yet on his unschooling journey.

When the kids get to play around, follow their curiosity, experiment
freely, learn empirically about the different reactions and parts, then
this is a cool gift to strew in an unschooling way. When dh sits down
with them and performs a specific experiment, tells the kids to sit and
watch, won't let them use the test-tubes because *this* experiment
doesn't require them, then it becomes a lesson and a disappointing,
schooly gift with lots of rules and parameters that discourage genuine
curiosity and experimentation. Same gift, different outcome. See what I
mean? That's the difference between strewing for genuine interest and
strewing a hidden curriculum, in my opinion.

Strewing needs to be about all things interesting holding equal value
and importance. We ought to be just as excited to strew some Teen Titan
toys that will fuel a current passion as we are about strewing that
chemistry set because both will offer innumerable opportunities for
learning and exploration. I value learning--life-long learning, natural
learning, organic learning. I think we learn with every breath, that's
what makes us sentient beings. I think it is impossible not to learn
unless one actively shuts down and closes off the learning
opportunity--that's what schools and lessons teach us to do, acting in
directly antithetical ways to true learning. Unschooling to me isn't
about devaluing learning, but about valuing learning in all its forms,
about valuing the act of living itself as providing the means of
learning with every step and every breath.

Another example: I had some money from my mom to spend on the kids for
Christmas, some of which I spent on beautiful wooden bead sets, some of
which I spent at the bookstore. (I had intended to spend all of it at
this great art supply store, but it had closed down! I was very grumpy
about that.) From the bookstore, I bought:
-- a book on knitting because Julia and I both would like to learn to knit
--a book on MC Escher because Em and I had been talking about him
recently and the kids are into tessellations
--a klutz book on magic
--a klutz book on paper twirling, or quilling
--a belly dancing kit, complete with finger cymbals, CD and DVD
--a book on paper airplanes
--a book of poetry for children, called _Animal Poems_ because it has
one of the kids' favorite poems, "Tyger" by William Blake
--a deck of Tarot cards

This is a really practical example of the way I "strew." I'm also
notorious for buying things at museum gift shops--I buy all kinds of
things that look interesting. I've gotten books, coloring books, nature
journals, craft kits, rebus makers, instruments, CDs, cards and games. I
buy interesting stuff at the hardware store--spools of colored wire,
funnels, different size measuring tapes, seeds of plants we've
read/heard about. I buy cool computer game bundles at Sam's Club, pick
up interesting books at the library, rent topical DVDs of stuff we're
currently interested in, order toys online. I subscribe to magazines,
buy museum memberships, research vacations, explore new parks or
climbing areas. We have all kinds of stuff to explore and pull out in
our home, none of which is required. Often, things sit for months, even
years before someone takes an interest in it or the moment presents
itself to pull it out.

I think there's probably a fine line somewhere between the kind of
strewing I do and blatant consumerism, but I'm still discovering what
that is. ;) How much do I spend on unschooling? Everything and nothing. *g*


Sandra Dodd's strewing page is good, but my favorite piece that
illustrates most closely what I do is her "House as a Museum" piece.
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
http://sandradodd.com/museum

There's also an interesting thread along these lines going on now on the
UnschoolingDiscussion list.

And, here's something from an essay I'm working on now that touches on
this topic:

"Shelves, cabinets, baskets and bins are filled with goodies to explore
and excite. I accumulate and acquire stuff with an obsessive quality
that rivals the above mother's obsession to control the stuff in her
home. As Unschoolers, we dive into topics with gusto, devouring all that
we can get our hands on and then moving onto the next entrée. Many
times, I'll see something that whets my own appetite with its future
promise and I pick it up, waiting for just the right time to pull it out.

I also keep stuff forever, like the calligraphy set I picked up when I
was probably twelve or thirteen. Its multiple nibs and colors fascinated
my girls as we played with them and compared the pens to a quill my five
year old daughter had bought at Colonial Williamsburg. My husband's
molecule model set from college chemistry has also proven quite
interesting and offered hours of fun building in addition to
illustrating conversations on water molecules and, most recently,
chirality in nature spurred by Jim's work and Emily's recent interest in
genetic mutation, thanks to the X-men."


--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html


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