[email protected]

>>>>>Especially when she asked me "what about kids with bahavior problems?
Your kids seem very inquisitive, smart and well behaved. What about kids not
like that." I said that from what I've seen, most of those "problems" go
away when you remove school. I told her all kids shine when they unschool.
:)<<<<<

Good answer.

I'm dealing with this too. I spoke with a friend yesterday. Strict Catholic
Dictator. And she likes it that way.

She & her husband adopted their two great-nephews, now 13 & 12. They were
horribly abused (cigarette burns on their scalps, etc.) They were taken from
their bio parents at four & three, I believe (I could be off by a year either
way). Bio-parents imprisoned for abuse and drugs.

The younger boy is fine: he follows the rules (of which there are MANY!), so
he's no problem. The older boy is totally out of control. He was expelled
last week. He has NO privileges: they've all been removed. He goes to work with
his father and sits at the office all day unless his dad tells him to help
the janitor empty the garbage.

They said they could pinpoint when he went off: last September when his
great-grandmother died. She would allow him to walk to her house, eat oreos,
drink cokes, and watch cartoons all day----in other words (IMO), the only one who
showed him unconditional love.

It's very sad. He's a handsome, smart boy with a great smile. Charming.

My friend said that they 'tried' it my way: they gave him his privileges
when he was good----but that didn't last long. It's hard to explain that THAT
wasn't what I'm talking about----that he should get these things because he is
Who He Is----NOT because he followed the rules.

Now, his food is tightly monitored (no cokes or oreos---with cokes in the
house, one night he 'stole' four in the middle of the night----so no more cokes
allowed), no tv, no games, no swimming, no NOTHING! He's not allowed to do
anything that he likes.

And yet they wonder why he's difficult.

Her comment to me was, "But Cameron has always been so easy. This one had
lousy parents---it's all genetic."

We are polar opposites. But I could see him THRIVE in my house. Absolutely
thrive.


I haven't seen him in four years. I might be seeing him in a few weeks. I
hope we can spend some time together. His young life sucked. But now he's having
the life sucked OUT of him.

~Kelly, so sad




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

Is it becoming trendy to identify oneself as an unschooler without actually being an unschooler? It seems to me I'm running into more people -- either online or IRL, some even folks I know both IRL and cyber -- who will announce themselves to be unschoolers, but as I learn more about them, they're really not unschoolers at all.

Is this maybe the cause of all the recent debates about what constitutes 'real' unschooling? Or have these pretenders always been there, and the debates bring them out of the woodwork?

It really bugs me to have someone call herself an unschooler, then hear her tell her child 'you don't play with plastic toys' or 'you don't play video games.' Then there are the people who participate in unschooling conversations as unschoolers, but later use phrases like 'in our curriculum, we have a lot of activities for small motor skills' or some other such schoolish comment. I mean, really, if you're not an unschooler, it's okay to admit that. If you're really an eclectic relaxed homeschooler, or a curriculum school-at-hom family, then say it!

To present yourself as one thing, but live another discredits both for those who see you as a picture of what homeschooling is. It also leaves me wondering why you'd choose a method you're ashamed to admit to using -- other wise why call yourself an unschooler when you aren't?

gotta go

Sylvia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill and Tia Banks

Hi, We are new to unschooling but feel lead to go in that dirrection. It is so hard when no one in our family agrees or in our community. I am wondering how you make sure they learn the basics in order to thrive as adults. I am worried that they will be behind when they get older and it would all be my fault :o(

Math, english, science, history, etc. Things that they need to be succesful in the world as adults, making a living.

Is anyone an adult who was unschooled as a child?

I just feel so worried at times and want to enroll them in PS, to make sure they get some education. I dont know. We have a 2g, 6b, 8b. Thank you, Tia




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather Woodward

It could be either a misunderstanding of what unschooling is - or they want to be - but yet aren't there yet. I have come across many that believed that unschooling is simply not using a curriculm. But I have found that this is not true! True Unschooling encompasses much more than that. This takes a bit more learning, especially if one has not really experienced any other models than what they are surrounded by.

With the plastic toys and video games and such - this comes from a personal preference of the parent (or hang-up). I have found it difficult when my son purchases(or I am purhasing for him) those combat/army figures. It bugs me, however I have had to examine that he is not me, that he has his own likes and dislikes. To make him feel bad for this because it's not my thing, is like belittling his father for watching football - when it bores the tar out of me ;-) My associations with these figures and military stuff (that look so real!) come from the "real war" that I am concerned about. When I look at what my reation/feelings are really about its not about the toy- but about bigger issues.

"To present yourself as one thing, but live another discredits both for those who see you as a picture of what homeschooling is. It also leaves me wondering why you'd choose a method you're ashamed to admit to using -- other wise why call yourself an unschooler when you aren't?"

This is very true, but I think it stems from "wanting" to be an unschooler but not being quite there yet. So, the moral of the story is just say it like it is....

Heather



----- Original Message -----
From: Sylvia Toyama
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Unschooling Pretenders?


Is it becoming trendy to identify oneself as an unschooler without actually being an unschooler? It seems to me I'm running into more people -- either online or IRL, some even folks I know both IRL and cyber -- who will announce themselves to be unschoolers, but as I learn more about them, they're really not unschoolers at all.

Is this maybe the cause of all the recent debates about what constitutes 'real' unschooling? Or have these pretenders always been there, and the debates bring them out of the woodwork?

It really bugs me to have someone call herself an unschooler, then hear her tell her child 'you don't play with plastic toys' or 'you don't play video games.' Then there are the people who participate in unschooling conversations as unschoolers, but later use phrases like 'in our curriculum, we have a lot of activities for small motor skills' or some other such schoolish comment. I mean, really, if you're not an unschooler, it's okay to admit that. If you're really an eclectic relaxed homeschooler, or a curriculum school-at-hom family, then say it!

To present yourself as one thing, but live another discredits both for those who see you as a picture of what homeschooling is. It also leaves me wondering why you'd choose a method you're ashamed to admit to using -- other wise why call yourself an unschooler when you aren't?

gotta go

Sylvia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lgbryk

She & her husband adopted their two great-nephews, now 13 & 12. They were
horribly abused (cigarette burns on their scalps, etc.) They were taken from
their bio parents at four & three, I believe (I could be off by a year either
way). Bio-parents imprisoned for abuse and drugs.



It makes me so mad when people don't understand that anger in teens can often be depression, that anger can often be grieving -- how about lots and lots of love. I know when you mention this to people if they listen, their first reaction is to go with meds -- but, I know first hand it does not need medication. How very sad for this young man!
Linda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

How sad to see child with no privileges -- besides the fact that often what strict parents call privileges are really basic human rights! I've always wondered what reason a child with no privileges has to change. Why bother when you'd have to work so very hard to see any 'progress' or joy in your life? No wonder he's so unhappy and angry.

I remember when my brother was being very difficult in high school, and my parents were grounding him endlessly. His attitude was "what are they going to do -- ground me again? I'll just leave again." It was all so counter-productive. And in the years since, they've wondered why he's developed such a drinking problem....

Sylvia


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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/12/04 9:18:55 AM, sylgt04@... writes:

<< Is it becoming trendy to identify oneself as an unschooler without
actually being an unschooler? >>

I had been for at least ten years that I know of.

-=as I learn more about them, they're really not unschoolers at all. -=-

Well that's the big problem, whether there's any such thing as "real
unschoolers."

Some people say no one can define it, and that anyone who's not using a
curriculum and doing school at home is an unschooler.

-=Is this maybe the cause of all the recent debates about what constitutes
'real' unschooling? Or have these pretenders always been there, and the debates
bring them out of the woodwork? -=-

It's not the cause, and they don't think they're pretending.
People go a little way and identify themselves and don't want any pressure to
do more.

Years ago on AOL the discussions about what was and wasn't unschooling
resulted in the term "eclectic homeschoolers" being used, and now there are lists
and websites with that name. People who do some unschooling, but maybe not in
all subjects, or they use some "methods" and some exploration.

-=-It really bugs me to have someone call herself an unschooler, then hear
her tell her child 'you don't play with plastic toys' or 'you don't play video
games.' -=-

Oh that.
But those things aren't necessary to unschooling.
I think they're helpful (not everyone agrees with me) and I think if a parent
continues to examine what she's doing and how her children are learning,
they're a logical extension (but not all parents are self-examining and big into
logic). but I don't think they're the made-it-or-break-it areas.

-=-A beginning collection of ideas about that is here:-=-

http://sandradodd.com/chore/option

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/12/04 9:59:45 AM, 6banks@... writes:

<< I am wondering how you make sure they learn the basics in order to thrive
as adults. >>

You change your perception of what is basic, and what "thrive" means, in part.

-=-Math, english, science, history, etc. Things that they need to be
succesful in the world as adults, making a living.-=-

Read as much as you can about unschooling. Maybe just go to google.com and
poke around. I have a big collection that starts here
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

There are other lists, and one is for beginners.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/other

-=-Is anyone an adult who was unschooled as a child?-=-

A couple of links on this page (Mae Kowalke)
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
and some of these were teens when they wrote but are grown now:
http://sandradodd.com/teens

-=-I just feel so worried at times and want to enroll them in PS, to make
sure they get some education. -=-

Is "some education" worth the downside of school for you?
If so, school's an option.

Sandra

[email protected]

<< I've always wondered what reason a child with no privileges has to
change. Why bother when you'd have to work so very hard to see any 'progress' or
joy in your life? No wonder he's so unhappy and angry. >>

This is a story about a kid who's in school, so anyone who's pressed for time
should just skip it.

Marty is working with a boy who's 18 and went to school. I know both his
parents. They're not very nice to him, and he's been angry and bullying since I
met him, when he was 11 or 12.

Marty invited him over tonight, for a Halo party that's actually Kirby's
party. I said, "Okay, Marty, but you're responsible for his behavior. If he
starts getting loud and bullying, get him to stop. You can use me as a bad guy
if you want to say, 'You need to chill or my mom will throw you out.'" Marty
didn't give me a quizzical look. He knew EXACTLY what I was saying.

His mom told me last spring that as soon as the boy was 18 (he's an only
child, she's his stepmother, but has been there most of his life) he was out. I
told her we weren't throwing Kirby out. We do have more room and more money
than they do, but having him there won't kill them. So he's 18 and still
there, but this job they have is okay for Marty for spending money but not so
great for the other kid if he really wants independence. He's going to buy a car
from his aunt with the money, and then I guess he can get a better job.
Usually Marty gives him a ride. He used to take the bus.

Yesterday I drove Marty and picked the kid up. He said "I'm all cut up from
my bed. I have lots of little cuts on me because a spring poked through."
SHEESH!!! He's sleeping on a box spring and not a mattress, and he's not a
small/light person. His parents could honestly afford a mattress from a thrift
store, or just ask around all our friends and find one. But then again, this
guy's smart enough to have done that himself, or to put some padding between
him and the springs. Each person in that family is increasingly beat down and
negative.

So on one hand I'm sympathetic and with his parent would do more to make his
life comfortable. And on the other hand, I just have an urge to make my own
kids that much more comfortable, and try to subtly keep him away from them when
I can.

If decisions are made with "this can be a little bit better" as a basis,
things get better.
If decisios are made with "whatever," or "things can only get worse, then
things will get worse.

Sandra

nellebelle

>>>>We are new to unschooling but feel lead to go in that dirrection. It is so hard when no one in our family agrees or in our community. I am wondering how you make sure they learn the basics in order to thrive as adults. I am worried that they will be behind when they get older and it would all be my fault>>>>>>

Have you made a list of the reasons why you feel led to unschooling? Maybe that would help you find the answers to some of your concerns. Why would you feel led to do something that you aren't confident about?

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

catherine aceto

What makes you feel lead to go in that direction?

Some of your questions are not easy to answer because they don't make sense in unschooling terms. If you believe that people learn what they need to know -- then you believe that your children (as people) will learn what they need to know, and that what they have learned is what they needed to know. If they didn't learn it, they didn't need to know it (yet). I think of that as all inherent in defining what learning/knowing/unschooling means. But is all circulare BECAUSE it is all in the definitions.

I wonder if your questions are actually closer to these: (1) Will my children wish later that I had made them learn something else now? (2) Is there a "window" where if my children do not learn something now, they will be unable to learn it later (due to lack of ability or desire or time?)

The answer to those questions, IMO, is (1) who knows? but is it worth the damage to your relationship by forcing them now? and (2) No - they can always learn what they need to know when they are motivated by needing to know it.

I was not unschooled as a child - but with very few exceptions, the things that I learned as a child and retained and used, were all things that I learned outside of school. (I was a "great" student in school terms (all As) - but I learned things for the tests and promptly forgot them.) So, I think I can truthfully say that my actual current knowledge was almost entirely acquired by unschooling. And I'd probably know a lot more if school hadn't wasted so much of my time!


-Cat


---- Original Message -----
From: Bill and Tia Banks
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:10 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] new unschooler question



Hi, We are new to unschooling but feel lead to go in that dirrection. It is so hard when no one in our family agrees or in our community. I am wondering how you make sure they learn the basics in order to thrive as adults. I am worried that they will be behind when they get older and it would all be my fault :o(

Math, english, science, history, etc. Things that they need to be succesful in the world as adults, making a living.

Is anyone an adult who was unschooled as a child?

I just feel so worried at times and want to enroll them in PS, to make sure they get some education. I dont know. We have a 2g, 6b, 8b. Thank you, Tia




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Tracy Ayers

That makes sense, and like I said before I'm out of all the loops, so I
don't really know if I'm any specific type -COMPLETELY- that's why I was
thrilled to find this group and in one of the first messages I read
someone mentioned 'the many degrees of unschooling' -I have only called
our style 'unschooling to a degree or sort of eclectic' I've been very
careful to not say "We are ___" because, frankly, I love watching my
kids learn and I don't care how they do it!!! I don't use a curriculum
-my oldest loves workbooks, but I don't MAKE her do any of them, the
next loves hearing 'you got an A' so I'll figure out what he 'got' on
something if he asks, but I always tell him that he did great and it
doesn't really matter what # you put on it if he learned something...

~Tracy


On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 08:05:11 -0800 (PST), "Sylvia Toyama"
<sylgt04@...> said:
>
> Is it becoming trendy to identify oneself as an unschooler
> without actually being an unschooler? It seems to me I'm
> running into more people -- either online or IRL, some even
> folks I know both IRL and cyber -- who will announce themselves
> to be unschoolers, but as I learn more about them, they're
> really not unschoolers at all.
> Is this maybe the cause of all the recent debates about what
> constitutes 'real' unschooling? Or have these pretenders always
> been there, and the debates bring them out of the woodwork?
> It really bugs me to have someone call herself an unschooler,
> then hear her tell her child 'you don't play with plastic toys'
> or 'you don't play video games.' Then there are the people who
> participate in unschooling conversations as unschoolers, but
> later use phrases like 'in our curriculum, we have a lot of
> activities for small motor skills' or some other such schoolish
> comment. I mean, really, if you're not an unschooler, it's
> okay to admit that. If you're really an eclectic relaxed
> homeschooler, or a curriculum school-at-hom family, then say
> it!
> To present yourself as one thing, but live another discredits
> both for those who see you as a picture of what homeschooling
> is. It also leaves me wondering why you'd choose a method
> you're ashamed to admit to using -- other wise why call yourself
> an unschooler when you aren't?
> gotta go
> Sylvia
>
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>
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teach_r_mama@...

Robyn Coburn

<<<<Is it becoming trendy to identify oneself as an unschooler without
actually being an unschooler? It seems to me I'm running into more people
-- either online or IRL, some even folks I know both IRL and cyber -- who
will announce themselves to be unschoolers, but as I learn more about them,
they're really not unschoolers at all.
...snip..
To present yourself as one thing, but live another discredits both for those
who see you as a picture of what homeschooling is. It also leaves me
wondering why you'd choose a method you're ashamed to admit to using --
other wise why call yourself an unschooler when you aren't?>>>>>

I had a thing with my local group where one person was worried about reading
for her 6yo and posted a question about "going with the flow". I posted that
I was an Unschooler and pretty much always did so.

Then another mother posted about how she also took an "unschooling approach"
and went on to talk about how her son balked less than he used to about the
history lessons she insisted on, and about how she quizzed him verbally
rather than making him do the written tests in the text book chapters, and a
number of other purely academic issues that were coercive and schoolish.
These were not areas of doubt or debate, like tv restrictions - these were
mandated school-at-home activities.

I wrote about how that was fine and worked for them but was not Unschooling
because - all the reasons - and I was gentle too, if you can believe that of
me. ;) I directed anyone who wanted more information to all the usual places
that we are familiar with.

In the ensuing small firestorm, and the "labels don't matter" comments, I
ended up taking the position that they do matter in a situation on line when
all we have are our words. I talked about the issue that the people who
decide the definition of vegan are vegans, not people who want to call
themselves vegan but eat meat on Sundays. I wrote of my passionate devotion
to Unschooling and about how finding definitions of it from the hostile will
give an inaccurate picture.

A few people came out of the woodwork claiming to be Unschoolers, including
one person who is convinced that she "taught" her son to walk and talk.
(Sigh). There was some conversation about when a child wants curriculum and
textbooks to use, despite the mother's desire to Unschool.

The last thing that the mother who was pseudo-unschooling wrote was that she
had heard that a lot of definitions of unschooling as neglect and then "I'll
say no more."

I chose to let it go, and allow the nasty dig clearly aimed at me to stand
in the light of everyone's intelligent scrutiny, without me pointing at it
and taking it personally (even though I think it was meant that way.)

However I did IRL mention to some of my friends from the group, if this is
what you believe Unschooling is why, in the name of all logic, would you
wish to appropriate the name to yourself?

Robyn L. Coburn

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Joni Zander

"Math, english, science, history, etc. Things that they need to be
succesful in the world as adults, making a living."

How about self control, self determination, communication skills,
problem solving skills, knowing yourself, knowing how to live life
joyously. These are the things that they need to be successful in the
world as adult. These are also the things not "taught" in schools.
These are the things employers complain are missing in their employees.
These are the things that are learned in spades while unschooling.

Joni Zander
FotoCEO@...

Elizabeth Hill

A friend of mine went to a non-violent communications seminar, which
piqued my curiosity.

I googled a bit, and I like this list of words they posted under the
title "Feelings when your needs are satisfied".

These include: affectionate, excited, compassionate, amazed, joyful,
friendly.

I thought this spoke to the spirit we are trying to cultivate in
unschooling, and it really reminded me of PamS. list of unschooling
adjectives.

http://www.cnvc.org/feelings.htm

Unschooling is about finding the best in people. So many methods of
teaching and parenting are too much about performance and compliance and
not about spirit. The mechanistic idea of school as an assembly-line
and of children as widgets really underestimates what human beings are
capable of. What were they thinking?

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/12/04 6:04:00 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< So many methods of

teaching and parenting are too much about performance and compliance and

not about spirit. The mechanistic idea of school as an assembly-line

and of children as widgets really underestimates what human beings are

capable of. What were they thinking? >>

Well, you've pegged it.

They were thinking of American heroes: Winchester. Ford.
Those iconic engineers of the interchangeable parts and assembly lines that
made our country great.

Sandra

Tracy Ayers

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:27:06 -0800, "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
said:

> me. ;) I directed anyone who wanted more information to all the usual
> places
> that we are familiar with.


Being new to this group, I am interested in whatever links you all like.
I have been at some unschooling places, but would like to have a few
more if you don't mind.

Thank you,
~Tracy
--
Tracy Ayers
teach_r_mama@...

Robyn Coburn

<<<<> me. ;) I directed anyone who wanted more information to all the usual
> places
> that we are familiar with.


Being new to this group, I am interested in whatever links you all like.
I have been at some unschooling places, but would like to have a few
more if you don't mind.>>>>>

Sorry to assume Tracy!

I posted about this list, Basics, AlwaysUnschooled and AlwaysLearning. I
mentioned www.sandradodd.com/unschooling and www.unschooling.com and
www.unschooling.info.

I think I also mentioned "The Unprocessed Child" (Valerie Fitzenreiter) and
"The Unschooling Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn).

Finally I believe I also referred to Life Learning Magazine
www.lifelearningmagazine.com and Live Free Learn Free
www.livefreelearnfree.com


Robyn L. Coburn

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Elizabeth Roberts

Betsy,

They were thinking of exactly what public education
has become...an institution spitting out the perfect
workers for an industrial society. Non-thinking
consumers loyal to the system. Basically.

If you want to read more, I'd recommend John Taylor
Gatto's "The Underground History of American
Education." You can read it in entirety online at
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com

Elizabeth


The mechanistic idea of school as
> an assembly-line
> and of children as widgets really underestimates
> what human beings are
> capable of. What were they thinking?
>
> Betsy
>




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jenneferh2000

> "The Unschooling Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn).

You meant Mary Griffith, right?

-Jennefer

Robyn Coburn

<<<> "The Unschooling Handbook" (Grace Llewellyn).

You meant Mary Griffith, right?>>>>

Yes, thank you for the correction! I don't think I mentioned the author in
the post to my group, just the title.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Holly Furgason

> -=-Is anyone an adult who was unschooled as a child?-=-

Here we run into defintitions again but I consider myself unschooled
as a child even though I went to school. My mom was the type who was
into learning and doing all kinds of stuff but she was incapable of
really taking care of us. We were basically left to ourselves and I
hardly ever went to school. The truancy laws were very lenient and
as long as I had a note from time to time from saying that I missed
school because I wasn't feeling well, they were happy. I just spent
most of my time learning the things I wanted to learn.

I stayed home from school, read (easily reading a book a day) and
played my cello. I did poorly in all of my classes in high school
because I didn't show up or do any work but then aced the exams
because I *love* to read textbooks and had a vast general knowledge
anyway so they had to pass me. I'm also great with tests and haven't
met a multiple guess test that I couldn't beat. I was never taught
to read. I just learned how before I went to kindergarten. My love
was foreign languages and I studied five of them in high school.

Basically, I did what I wanted and learned what I wanted. That's why
I never had any serious doubts that unschooling works.

Holly
2 COOL 4 SCHOOL
Unschooling t-shirts and more!
http://www.cafepress.com/2cool4school

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In a message dated 11/12/2004 10:41:31 AM Central Standard Time,
lgbryk@... writes:

It makes me so mad when people don't understand that anger in teens can
often be depression, that anger can often be grieving -- how about lots and lots
of love. I know when you mention this to people if they listen, their first
reaction is to go with meds -- but, I know first hand it does not need
medication.

~~~

Maybe not for you. Some people take medication and it saves their lives.
Some people don't get vital help because of the stigma regarding medication
and mental illness.

From what was quoted, the situation sounds a lot more complicated than just
teenage angst. Those kids have serious problems in their lives that have
affected them permanently. Love alone seems simplistic and insensitive.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 11/12/2004 10:52:02 AM Central Standard Time,
sylgt04@... writes:

I remember when my brother was being very difficult in high school, and my
parents were grounding him endlessly. His attitude was "what are they going
to do -- ground me again? I'll just leave again." It was all so
counter-productive. And in the years since, they've wondered why he's developed such a
drinking problem....




~~~
He had a crappy life. That doesn't mean his parents are responsible for his
drinking problem.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lgbryk

My point was not that medication is always the wrong way to go, but for me the last thing to try. I know that my thoughts sounded simplistic, but sometimes people go for the complicated first, and don't even try the most simple. You are right that medication saves lives sometimes, sometimes not. But, hearing just a part of the story of these boys shows me that perhaps what has perpetuated the anger has come from situations imposed on them, not organic mental illness. I believe that if someone had the inclination and time to give to these boys, maybe life could be turned around for them. I also know that people looking for attention can learn to use angry attention, if there is no loving attention to be had. A vicious cycle is started.
Linda
It makes me so mad when people don't understand that anger in teens can
often be depression, that anger can often be grieving -- how about lots and lots
of love. I know when you mention this to people if they listen, their first
reaction is to go with meds -- but, I know first hand it does not need
medication.

~~~

Maybe not for you. Some people take medication and it saves their lives.
Some people don't get vital help because of the stigma regarding medication
and mental illness.

From what was quoted, the situation sounds a lot more complicated than just
teenage angst. Those kids have serious problems in their lives that have
affected them permanently. Love alone seems simplistic and insensitive.

Karen




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

He had a crappy life. That doesn't mean his parents are responsible for his drinking problem.

Karen

*****

I wasn't saying they were directly responsible for the drinking, (our addicitive genetics aside) but they were directly responsible for his crappy life. FTR, his drinking problem began at age nine, so they get some blame for choosing to be willfully ignorant of his problems.

Sylvia


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 11/15/04 7:44:50 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:

<< Love alone seems simplistic and insensitive.>>

But a known lack of love is profound.

Sticking with punishment and insult and trying to make up for it with
counsellors and medications is OVER productive. They could roll back to a starting
place if they wanted to and there were people to help them do it.

Seeing messed up families as models to avoid isn't a bad thing for people
whose children are still young and who are making decisions now about the
relationships they want to have with them.

-=- It was all so
counter-productive. And in the years since, they've wondered why he's
developed such a
drinking problem....-=-

I honestly don't know whether my kids have the potential to have drinking
problems. Kirby was gone for six nights when he had only planned to be gone for
five, when he went to visit friends at college in another city. I expressed
concern to Keith that maybe they were drinking and had gotten him involved in
that, and he had needed to sober up. It just scared me that he was out of
contact for so long and didn't come home on schedule. Keith wasn't worried,
because he has faith in Kirby's good judgment. I was worried because in my
personal experience, alcohol (especially when combined with what seems to be genetic
alcoholism) quickly overcomes judgment.

Turns out there was no alcohol involved at all, just Halo 2 and the wisdom
not to start a four or five hour drive at midnight.

But if we were the kinds of parents who harangued him, had strict rules and
curfews, would ground and punish and blame and accuse him, it would be silly
for me to additionally express surprise or exasperation if he did the worst
things he could do and blamed me.

Sometimes when kids are being accused of doing something and punished for it,
they figure they might as well do it, as they've already paid the price for
it and it must be valuable to cause that much uproar.

Sandra

[email protected]

It's both. Genetics and environment. They had a rough start with the
bio-parents (who are both abusive addicts----dad's still in prison). Everyone
thought they had it made going to a *stable* (read: controlling) home. Things
probably WERE sweet for quite a few years----and certainly at first, although the
boys had some odd behaviors that they brought with them.

They said they could pinpoint the time when he went off: the death of his
great-grandmother----the only person who gave him unconditional love. His
bio-mom was at the funeral, showing off her new husband and his two
children---same ages, her "new" children. Devastating.

He also broke my friend's hand, so he's now become violent.

I asked my friend about meds. One of the docs thinks he's bi-polar
(personally I feel he's just bi-miserable!), and I suggested that there's a new med
out for bi-polar (My dad's a psychiatrist who was just out in 'Vegas last
weekend for the launch of a new bi-polar drug.) with fewer side effects. She
doesn't want him to be a zombie. <sigh>

They really and truly think that clamping down and clamping down HARD will
cure this.

I *know* he has only one of two futures: early prison or early suicide.

Breaks my heart.

I'll be visiting soon. Maybe we can spend some time together.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracey Inman

**Sometimes when kids are being accused of doing something and punished for
it,
they figure they might as well do it, as they've already paid the price for
it and it must be valuable to cause that much uproar.**

I happen to know this to be a fact. When my husband's brother was growing
up he loved to hang with friends. He would camp out or maybe stay out later
than the curfew. My FIL started accusing him of drinking and doing drugs.
My dh remembers the day his brother said.."If they are going to accuse me, I
might as well do it.." He did and turned out to have a life trail of
drinking and drugs. His wife just said the other day that they buy liquor
by the case not the bottle. It is very sad to me. I do blame my in-laws.
They have never stopped accusing and belittling. Unless a person has
someone cross his or her path and help encourage a different direction the
outcome can be tragic. I am eternally grateful for the people who have been
in my path. I wouldn't be where I am today without them. And let me
add...I do believe at some point in our lives we have to move past the blame
and take control of our own lives. I had to get to that place in my life.
However, I am back to having to have someone to encourage you in the right
direction. You can't always find it alone.

~Tracey I.




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Tracey Inman

**It makes me so mad when people don't understand that anger in teens can
often be depression, that anger can often be grieving -- how about lots
and lots
of love. I know when you mention this to people if they listen, their
first
reaction is to go with meds -- but, I know first hand it does not need
medication. **

I would also like to add that medication doesn't have to be a forever
remedy. I think there are times one needs the medication to be able to work
through issues. If the person isn't sleeping well or can't concentrate it
is hard to work through hard issues or to be able to get to a place to say
I am ready to move past this. I have seen friends who went on meds for a
year just to get over the hump. It helps the sleep pattern and so on..

~ Tracey I.



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