Ariella

<<It's more useful to the list -- because it's part of the list's goals
-- to offer ideas that are respectful because they aren't personality
dependent. >>

I'm sorry Joyce, that was partly why I was continuing the conversation. I do realize that children have differing personalities. We have 8 children between the two of us, and certainly they run the gamut of personality. I am curious, since I have stated repeatedly that I have several children of varying ages, why you would assume that they all have similiar personalities? I have not found that to normally be the case within families, especially large one, or ones with large age differences.

As I said before, a couple of my children are very strong willed, and would be more likely to refuse to do something if I pushed than they would to acquiese.

Of course I can only know how my personal family has reacted to our personal parenting methods. However, I have a large family, with children of many different ages, so it is a slightly more respresentative sample, perhaps, than a family with one child. I also have a grown child, and two older teens, so it seemed that I could say with some credibility that our method seems to have worked, since I have seen the results in children who reached the age of being able to make their own decisions and act on them, emotionally, physically, and financially. I am not exactly assuming that they will eventually realize they have their own choices, and the right to their own beliefs, etc. I am seeing that they understand and embrace that.

We strive very much to parent respectfully, and treat our children with respect. It is the cornerstone of our parenting philosophy. My goal is to always treat every child as a person, not a "child" or "my" child, or as "less than" because of age or lack of independent ability. Childhood is not preparation for life, it is life. However, our living together encompasses respect for ourselves, and the modeling of respecting every individual's values, choices and beliefs.

I believe it has worked with our family not because it is personality dependent, but because of the effort we have put into discussing ideals, modeling respect, and showing our children in countless ways that their opinions are valuable, as are our own. I am simply making the point that it is not always necessary to *only* consider the child's point of view in order to have children who still make their own decisions and choices independent of the parents. Nor is it neccesarily controlling a child to say that I personally am not comfortable with buying or doing something the child wants. I have much more respect for my children than to assume that they are incapable of understanding that others have values, desires, and beliefs that are equally important.

The feeling I get from some is that it is somehow not a good thing to have mutual respect, that it is better for the child if they are respected regardless of the impact that has on the values or opinions of others. I am saying that has not been my experience. Although I can see how some kids have the kind of personality that might make that neccessary, I think that with enough compassion, respect, and honesty from the parents that almost every child can enjoy and understand mutual respect. The most self effacing of our children holds their own with the most opinionated, even though they are outnumbered in our particular family. Perhaps the harder thing for us is the number of opinionated people who disagree with one another. However, it still works.

Mutual respect is also close to a neccessity when you have several children with varying beliefs, values and personalities, especially as they get older. As I have tried to be honest and upfront about our family, and tried to make it clear when things were my choice alone and when they became more individual choices, it has occurred to me that my children also do this among themselves. They each have strong opinions and beliefs, and have learned to share those with each other while not insisting that the others go along with them.

I see that you have misunderstood my point, since you feel that I am offering an opinion on controlling children. I am sorry if I have not been clear enough. It would be a mistake to think that our "method" of mutual respect is control. It is just another possibility in living with children that enables the children to discover and honor their own beliefs and values while also living with other people who honor their own beliefs and values.

Ariella


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Fetteroll

on 10/9/04 4:17 PM, Ariella at soulmotherof5@... wrote:

> I believe it has worked with our family not because it is personality
> dependent, but because of the effort we have put into discussing ideals,
> modeling respect, and showing our children in countless ways that their
> opinions are valuable, as are our own.

Ah, this is a good point!

I don't know who came up with the bank account analogy but it's a good one:
Everytime we do something that nurtures our children in who they are it's
like a deposit. Everytime we do something that whittles away at who they are
it's like a withdrawal. The more deposits we make and the fewer withdrawals
the more whole our children will be.

I think your children are able to forgive the "Mommy's political beliefs are
more important than your needs" message of "No, mommy won't allow her money
to be spent on Nestle, get something different," because of everything you
do that supports your children and gives them confidence that you respect
them.

But it's the "everything else" you've done that allows you to make that
withdrawal without it having as much effect as it could.

So I think the objections have come because your posts seem focused on how
to make withdrawals rather than how to fill your childrens accounts so that
selective withdrawals can be made.

> I am simply making the point that it is
> not always necessary to *only* consider the child's point of view in order to
> have children who still make their own decisions and choices independent of
> the parents.

That's a very good point.

Our society is steeped in parenting philosophies that treat children as
objects to be molded and that put convenience for parents ahead of children.
So when I (and I think many others) explain an idea of how to be with
children it's information that's intended to counter that "put parent's
convenience first" message from society. I assume that parents already know
how to assert their needs over their child's needs. What parents need is
insight into how that weilding of power looks from their children's points
of view and insight into why children's negative reaction to the seemingly
sensible ideas of the parents makes sense.

But I think what some people who have rejected conventional parenting and
are looking for something to replace it with hear is "Put yourself aside and
put your children first."

Which is no better!

I think the message in your posts has been so strongly "Stick to your values
inspite of your children's wants," and support for your children has seemed
a side issue that people are trying to counter that with "People already
know how to put themselves first ahead of children. Let's talk about the
part they don't know: how to put children first ahead of self."

So I think it's not as helpful to the purposes of this list to discuss how
we can draw our own boundaries but it is valuable to discuss how to draw our
boundaries within the context of supporting children.

Joyce

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], Fetteroll
<fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> I think the message in your posts has been so strongly "Stick to
your values
> inspite of your children's wants," and support for your children
has seemed
> a side issue that people are trying to counter that with "People
already
> know how to put themselves first ahead of children. Let's talk
about the
> part they don't know: how to put children first ahead of self."

Many of us have personal experience with our parents putting their
values first and controling us when we were kids. That certainly is
the way my mom's feeling about Disney came out. Even when I was
allowed to go to a Disney movie with my cousins (that one time), I
still was pretty unsettled knowing she didn't like it. So, yeh, when
someone talks about boycotts and such, I'm likely to assume it's
controling until proven otherwise.

>
> So I think it's not as helpful to the purposes of this list to
discuss how
> we can draw our own boundaries but it is valuable to discuss how to
draw our
> boundaries within the context of supporting children.

I was thinking about that yesterday while reading about a religious
group I'm not fond of that's growing in numbers and influence. Would
I allow my kids to go to this church with friends if they wanted to?
My gut says no, that would just confuse them by showing them the good
side of the church without knowing all the bad stuff. Better to just
say no, you can't go.

But I know my gut still needs lots more deschooling. My head's coming
along nicely, but get fear involved and it's much harder.

--aj

Elizabeth Hill

** I see that you have misunderstood my point, since you feel that I am
offering an opinion on controlling children. I am sorry if I have not
been clear enough. It would be a mistake to think that our "method" of
mutual respect is control.**

Unless a child has a very large allowance or a trust-fund or a
soft-touch grandparent with an open wallet, then a mother refusing to
buy certain items for a child (be it a candy bar, a video or a
belly-shirt) does end up in the child losing access to certain choices
and I think that means the child is effectively controlled.

That's why your stance sounded to me like it would result in children
being controlled. It's from the imbalance of economic power. (And, in
some cases the imbalance of transportation power is similarly used by
some parents to control children.) When important powers like spending
power and movement power are so unevenly distributed, then it's hard for
decision-making to be both mutual and fair.

Betsy

pam sorooshian

On Oct 10, 2004, at 5:30 AM, mamaaj2000 wrote:

> I was thinking about that yesterday while reading about a religious
> group I'm not fond of that's growing in numbers and influence. Would
> I allow my kids to go to this church with friends if they wanted to?
> My gut says no, that would just confuse them by showing them the good
> side of the church without knowing all the bad stuff. Better to just
> say no, you can't go.

Better to let them go and then you talk about it. I figured out a long
time ago that parents ought to tell their kids that doing drugs feels
GOOD when you're doing them (mostly) and that that is why people do
them (mostly). If all we ever did was talk about all the reasons for
not doing drugs, then they're kind of left in the dark about why
perfectly wonderful people they know do them. Leaving them in the dark
like that is leaving them with a sense that the world doesn't make
sense.

Same thing with churches and religions - if we disagree with some
religious teachings or actions, we still can help our kids understand
why people DO agree with them. And, part of the reason is that a big
church is fun - it is often filled with activity and people being
really nice and on their best behavior and everybody acting like your
friend and there can be awesome music and sometimes goodies like donuts
and cocoa and religious services can be really emotionally touching and
people in churches do a lot of good works - helping kids in an
orphanage, running food banks, etc. (I know, there are churches that
are definitely NOT fun - there are punitive scary places preaching
punitive scary messages and that are strict and anti-kid - but I'm not
talking about those.)

My next-door neighbor was Mormon and I attended church activities with
her for YEARS. My parents were definitely not fans of the Mormon church
and, over the years, we talked about the teachings. But always in a way
that was reasonably respectful of my friends there. I was 16 when I
suddenly "got it" that there were actual racist teachings - (since
changed, but in those days there were prohibitions against blacks being
fully integrated into the church). I quit going to the youth activities
then and there and had a tearful goodbye when I explained to some of my
friends why I would never come back. They even got me to go talk to the
bishop so he could explain to me what the rationale was - but I didn't
buy it. By that time there were lots of other aspects that I wasn't
buying either.

So - I would most definitely not just allow, but encourage, my kids to
go to church or visit other religions. It doesn't come up often - but
they do go occasionally with friends or relatives.

-pam
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