Laura Johnson

We are in the midst of our unschooling parenting journey. Last night, ds ate half of a bag of Hershey's Kisses, two bites of dinner and then asked for an ice cream. Dh looked at me like I was nuts for getting it. DS had a little stomach ache later and said that maybe it was the ice cream. He didn't each much protein, but had some fruit. We were never overly restrictive about anything especially food. But, we would try to encourage dinner before sweets. So, that is new. As I was making the grocery list, Ben wasn't going with me, I made sure to ask him if he wanted anything. He said "more kisses!!". It occurred to me that in most homes, no one would probably bother to ask the 5 year old what he wanted and be willing to buy it without hesitation. I usually don't ask him because he is usually with me when we shop and I buy pretty much what he wants, though now I make sure to ask, and I never say no to something unless we just don't have the extra money for 3 types of cereal or whatever. He didn't eat anymore kisses by the way, even when I brought the bag out and offered them.

We've never had bedtimes and only made a mild attempt once to regulate tv. So many families I know restrict the tv, well everyone I know does. As well as food and lots of other things. We've always been pretty relaxed about most things. Not issues one way or another.

The one issue that I'm having a hard time letting go of if is the issue of toy guns. I don't know why, but they bug me and we believed for so long that how kids shouldn't play with them, they promote violence, desensitizing them to violence etc... Though we've also talked about how I had toy guns as a kid, cap guns, and I'm not violent. DH always wanted a toy gun and never got one and resented it(lived in a school bus as a kid by hippie parents, totally natural sugar free diet, earthy crunchy, now craves sugar and hates health foods also, not a violent person). Most of our friend's kids would never have toy guns or any weapon toys. We do have light sabers, swords and squirt guns. Now, ds wants a toy gun and has been telling me that he is going to buy his kids a toy gun when he grows up. Here is our latest conversation:

B: I really want a toy gun.
M. I know, I really don't want you to have one.
B: Why not?
M: Because I don't like toy guns (totally weak reason I know)
B: then I won't ask you toy play with it.
M: Guns hurt people, I don't like when kids pretend to hurt people
B: But, toy guns aren't real, and no one gets hurt. I have swords and they hurt people for real, but toy ones don't they are just pretend, you know the difference right Mommy? (this kid is 5 btw)
M: I just don't like them
B: Then when you come in the room, I'll hide it (uh oh, this is not good)
M: I don't want you to hide things from me
B: But, I dont' want you to feel sad about a gun. I won't shoot you with it I promise.
M: Let me talk it over with Daddy and think about it
B: okay let me know (ick, another bad feeling from this response)

So, basically, I feel bad about it, but am still resistant. I talked about it with a few friends, stating how he had such a logical arguement in favor of. They were appalled that I would even consider it. I know it will not make him violent, he is a gentle kid, loud and roaring but gentle with other kids, not aggressive at all. He loves knights, and robot battles, but I've noticed that when he make his little robots from legos and they battle, after they "get fainted", they join the good guy side. And the good guys don't get hurt. So, even in his play, he is not violent. They said, "so you pretty much are going to let him do whatever he wants whether it is good for him or not. What if he wants to do drugs or steal, is that okay becasue he should have the freedom to choose for himself?"

I'm still resistant. Part of it I hate to admit, is the perception of I bought my kid a toy gun. Weak and poor reason, but I'm being honest with myself, and I don't like my reasons. Dh says he's fine with it. either way. His hold out issue is soda. He doesn't want him to have any. Candy, beef jerky yes, soda no.??? DS never asks for it so it isn't an issue right now. I'm fine with soda. We drink it. But, dh doesn't want him to have it.

Do you all have any hold out issues? Things that go against your grain to just let go of? I'm trying hard to get through this gun thing, because he wants one. I dont' know why it bothers me so much. I've had some family members killed by guns, two in law enforcement, one by suicide, but I'm not sure that's the issue for me.

So, how do you get around these issues? Violent video games, shows and toys, if you just don't want it around and you are worried about the effects of things on your kids? He played some pretty violent video games at a friend's house. I think one was Mortal Kombat, again, he's five, I dont' think he was ready for something like this. He talked about it for months afterwards. He incorporated it into his play and talked about it constantly. It disturbed him a great deal and he didn't like it. But, the kids were older and he didn't know what to do. It was an emergency babysitting situation, and won't be repeated.

This is getting too long so I won't go on. We are on the continuim, but I don't know how to get through this part.
Laura

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/04 10:02:51 AM, lauraj2@... writes:

<< So, basically, I feel bad about it, but am still resistant. I talked
about it with a few friends, stating how he had such a logical arguement in favor
of. They were appalled that I would even consider it. >>

Laura, send me your address and I will send your kid some guns.
Honest. Marty needs a new pair of toy cowboy guns with Halloween coming and
all anyway. Does he want brown or black? That way you're totally out of the
loop. Don't even open the package, I'll address it to him.

-=-He loves knights, and robot battles, but I've noticed that when he make
his little robots from legos and they battle, after they "get fainted", they
join the good guy side. -=-

That's really sweet. Like tag games where you gain the players you tag.

-=-They said, "so you pretty much are going to let him do whatever he wants
whether it is good for him or not. -=-

I personally have come to believe that controls are worse than all the toy
guns in the world. And the relationship between a child and parent can't be
regained. Your husband still has resentment/sorrow about not having a toy gun.
No amount of money or time or talking can change that.

-=-What if he wants to do drugs or steal, is that okay becasue he should have
the freedom to choose for himself?"-=-

They're just not thinking, your friends.
Do they think that those who do drugs and steal had their mothers'
permission? That she went to Walmart and bought them some drugs or took them down there
to steal?

They are not thinking.

-=-I'm still resistant. Part of it I hate to admit, is the perception of I
bought my kid a toy gun. -=-

So what's your address?

-=-I dont' know why it bothers me so much. I've had some family members
killed by guns, two in law enforcement, one by suicide, but I'm not sure that's
the issue for me. -=-

Does your son know those stories? Maybe tell them to him again, gently, and
even if that's NOT your whole issue, it will be an explanation that will make
sense to him.

-=-He played some pretty violent video games at a friend's house. I think one
was Mortal Kombat, again, he's five, I dont' think he was ready for something
like this. He talked about it for months afterwards. He incorporated it
into his play and talked about it constantly. It disturbed him a great deal and
he didn't like it. But, the kids were older and he didn't know what to do.
It was an emergency babysitting situation, and won't be repeated.-=-

Being five won't be repeated either. Maybe next time he's where that game
is he'll feel very differently about it, but keeping him from making a choice
will just add more factors.

-=- We are on the continuim, but I don't know how to get through this part.-=-

I can help if you send your address.
If you felt guilty about the expense you could send a donation for my website
expenses, and honestly I need a new computer, so contributions to the website
would be lovely. I take paypal at SandraDodd@....

They have toy guns at Playnix toys right near my house, and it's an
educational toystore so guns must be educational! <bwg>

When my kids were little they liked the wooden toy guns from New Orleans
Square in Disneyland, outside Pirates of the Caribbean. They have a trigger and
a hammer, real hammer onto a steel plate. So you could cut caps apart into
individual caps, "load" that gun, and fire once with the one cap. They sell
them other places too, sometimes--touristy places. I saw some with cowboy and
Indian stuff in Old Town in Albuquerque once.

And there are rubber band guns made of wood with a clothespin mounted on
them. Those really can hurt, though. I'd go for the make-believe "bang" or caps,
not rubber bands.

Sandra
SandraDodd@...
in case my e-mail doesn't show, and you want to send your address or
something.

pam sorooshian

On Sep 30, 2004, at 7:25 AM, Laura Johnson wrote:

> Dh looked at me like I was nuts for getting it. DS had a little
> stomach ache later and said that maybe it was the ice cream. He
> didn't each much protein, but had some fruit.

Ice cream is protein combined with sugar and fat. He learned that one
sweet on top of another can be too much. That is a good thing to learn
at a young age, don't you think?

Last night I ate a piece of peach upside-down cake, baked in a dutch
oven, at our park day/night. Couldn't resist and it was DELICIOUS. But
it did give me a tummy ache because of the butter. I knew it probably
would because I saw the butter going into it and I know I'm severely
lactose intolerant. I ate it anyway - knowing I'd pay the price. It was
worth it! I'm glad nobody is standing over me telling me, "That will
give you a tummy ache." Even my family and friends who KNOW it will, at
least understand that sometimes I just want to eat it anyway.

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

> -=-They said, "so you pretty much are going to let him do whatever he
> wants
> whether it is good for him or not. -=-

You could say "I'm going to give him as much opportunity as I possibly
can to make real decisions that really matter to him. Because in a few
short years he WILL be the one who will have to keep himself safe and
he WILL be able to do whatever he wants whether it is good for him or
not. There are a lot of things every kid is going to face, growing up,
and I want him to have had ALL the opportunities to build up his
decision-making abilities as possible so that he'll be thoughtful and
clearheaded and "practiced" in making choices. I want him, in fact, to
make some wrong choices while he is young enough that those wrong
choices are not life-threatening or even life-serious (although they
may feel that way to him, as they are for someone his age)."

In addition to that, I think you should spend some time getting to
understand human behavior and "force" - maybe don't call it "violence"
because I bet that word is loaded with baggage.

Kids, especially male kids, but not only them, are focused a lot on the
issue of "force" - they NEED it in their play - it is how they process
it all. Denying them the props they want for their play is no different
than saying, "I know better than you do what YOU should play." But it
isn't true - you're NOT in his head and never will be. You LOVE him,
but you are not him. You will never be able to know better than he does
what he should think about - and that is what play is - it is an
outward expression of what the kid is thinking about. To try to control
what they "play" is nothing short of attempted mind control.

-pam

National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Robyn Coburn

<< So, basically, I feel bad about it, but am still resistant. I talked
about it with a few friends, stating how he had such a logical arguement in
favor of. They were appalled that I would even consider it. >>

Yes he was considerably more logical than your friends.

The best advice that I have ever heard regarding toy guns is from Ren. Only
point the gun at someone who has agreed to play the game. That is the
principle of consideration for others.

Here is some of what I wrote about toys and violence a little while ago on
Basics. There was also thread here called "Violent toys?" a few months ago
if you want to look up the archives.

Quote begins:

It can be hard to remain open minded when it is a toy gun, because there is
a pervasive belief in the wider community that playing with guns equates to
a child becoming a violent person - not unlike playing violent video games.
This is a theory that is not borne out by the experiences related by long
term Unschoolers.

One of the wonderful moments from the Conference last year [2003] was when I
was chatting with a mother in the hall (sorry I don't remember who) when she
spotted her dd passing by. She called out to her and politely but excitedly
asked if she would mind letting her brother know that some other kids (pre
and early teen) were nearby playing some pretend game with long sticks (made
from pvc pipe) and he would be interested in joining it.

This struck me most forcibly as being the exact opposite of how many parents
would react to the whole idea of that kind of game, including assuming the
children would be careless and dangerous, as well as spiritually/emotionally
harmed by the fighting fantasy. They would want it stopped at once.

I have faith that the kids were responsible, careful and experienced. I am
totally sure that if there was a kid in the game who seemed to be lacking
self-control and dangerous to others, there would be a halt called and they
would seek the help of a familiar adult if the problem could not be
resolved. I can only assume that the other mother had equal faith.

On a related note, the kids were playing absolutely openly and publicly in
the funshop room (more like a ballroom sized chamber). There was no secrecy
or hiding. There was acceptance and encouragement.

[Here some words from another poster whose dd had a new gun she was
delighting in, and whose expressed ideas were remarkably similar to your ds]

My first thought is to not take the gun to that other family's home. On
other occasions, especially in your (her) home, it is more important to
honor your daughter's feelings than the possible feelings of other people,
none of whom you can control. You can continue to observe your dd and take
comfort in her evident grasp of the difference between fantasy play and
reality.

Perhaps, another thing is to give her time for the newness of this toy to
wear off before necessarily having a play date with that particular family,
so that suggesting different games may be less of a privation for her.

This issue has come up on occasion on my local group list in relation to
Park Days. Rarely, a family is anti-gun on broad principle; others subscribe
to the bad-toys-breed-psychos theory (see above); others are concerned about
immediate safety - the kids getting too excited and there being accidents in
"violent" play. These are some of the reasons our group tends to look for
good sized parks to allow the kids to separate into different groups for
different games.

It is sometimes harder for people to deal with very realistic looking guns,
rather than colorful "ray guns" or something other weapon like faux swords.
On occasion people have been concerned that other park users will get "the
wrong impression" about our kids, especially during war-time. It is possible
to get tied into knots of non-logic worrying about pretty unlikely scenarios
and the opinions of unconnected strangers.

One of the responses has been to reassure everyone that although there have
been the odd accidents at park days, none have been related to fantasy
weapons role playing. Another has been to talk about the kids' needs to
process some of their fears and feelings about the war news, or societal
violence in general, to feel powerful in a safe environment with the surety
of their parents available to step in if it all got too much at any time.

These are ideas that have been expressed by some of the parents of mostly
boys in our group who continue to engage in gun or weapons games. Jayn has
to date shown no interest in these games at the park. She does enjoy playing
"On guard" with us at home with her swords and shields - lots of collapsing
"dead" cured with the following incantation, "magic, magic back alive!"

Gun playing doesn't bother me. A child getting upset enough to use any toy
or object as an actual weapon, as against a fantasy weapon, is much more
worrying. Sand is more dangerous at the park than one kid's habitual bow and
suction cup arrows have ever been.

Robyn L. Coburn



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Robyn Coburn

<<<Last night I ate a piece of peach upside-down cake, baked in a dutch
oven, at our park day/night. Couldn't resist and it was DELICIOUS. But
it did give me a tummy ache because of the butter. I knew it probably
would because I saw the butter going into it and I know I'm severely
lactose intolerant. I ate it anyway - knowing I'd pay the price. >>>>

I'm sorry I wasn't there. I always Lactaid pills for just such an emergency!

Robyn L. Coburn

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Diana Tashjian

I'm not going to be much help with this. But I wanted to tell what I
think is kind of a funny (?) story:

My son was probably about 3 and periodically he and I'd go to Toys R
Us to play. Sometimes we played with the wagons and trikes on display
but eventually he got caught up in the video games being demo'ed on
various game consoles in the store. The first game that ever caught
his eye was a game called Tekken (sp?), a kicking and punching
fighting game. I was *very* uncomfortable with it. Number one, it
definitely wasn't the kind of game *I* enjoyed, it really upset me to
watch punching and kicking and, number 2, I was a little like you: I
didn't want to admit that I allowed my kid to play something like
that. Heck, I didn't even want to admit that I had a kid who *wanted*
to play a game like that.

So, first I tried telling Nick that I didn't want him to play this
game because it was a "violent game and I don't like watching a game
where people (characters) get hurt." I thought maybe my
disapproval/discomfort/dislike would be enough. It wasn't. So here we
are, Nick is sitting in a shopping cart so he can reach the controls
on the demo game consoles, and a little old lady comes by and says
something like, "That's what's wrong with our world! Kids playing
violent games like that!" Nick turns to her (actually, I don't think
he turned - he was too busy), and said, gleefully, "I'll *like* games
where people get hurt!"

I was horrified! But I understood immediately that what he was really
saying was, "I find this fascinating! My mom says this is a game where
people get hurt, ergo, I like games where people get hurt!" My son is
also extremely non-violent. When he was younger, the monsters,
enemies, etc., in his video games always turned into nice, cool,
gentle, helpful, cute, kind, little creatures in his games of fantasy.

So I decided that what was important was how Nick acted and as long as
he continued to be a kind, considerate person, I wasn't going to think
about controlling what games he played.

I think the other thing I did, which I know many people would not
agree with, was tried to let Nick know about the cultural war around
toy guns and video games. There are some situations where, in
consideration of others, we don't bring our guns. We don't bring them
to our homeschooling support group Park Day. Nick also knows that when
some moms and their kids come over, we don't play our Teen and Mature
rated video games. In fact, when some moms and kids come over, we
don't play video games at all. I told Nick what people's concerns are
about all these things and that what we do in our own home or with
like minded people is one thing but we choose to be concerned about
what makes our friends uncomfortable.

Anyway, maybe this was helpful after all?

Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Johnson" <lauraj2@...>

<snip>
> So, how do you get around these issues? Violent video games, shows
and toys, if you just don't want it around and you are worried about
the effects of things on your kids?
<snip>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/04 10:47:35 AM, pamsoroosh@... writes:

<< To try to control
what they "play" is nothing short of attempted mind control.
>>

True, and then there's a further aspect. He has to play at wondering WHY his
mom is so fearful and controlling. Moms become maybe bad guys or maybe just
contradictory, mysterious good guys the child's growing internal character
list.

I would rather my child feel strongly that he and I were partners gether in
his growth (something I learned at La Leche Leagu
Ze meetings before Kirby was old enough to know he was separate from me) than
for him to feel I was an adversary or a guard or any sort of "other."

If a child wanted to climb a tree, wouldn't you try to find a safe climbing
tree?
If he wanted to try a scooter or a skateboard, wouldn't you try to find him
one to borrow to try?
If he wanted to throw rocks, wouldn't you find him a safe rock-throwing place
and some water or a good target to throw at?

Toy guns are much safer than climbing trees, riding scooters, or throwing
rocks.
Children have been seriously wounded or died from trees, skateboards and
rocks.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/04 11:53:53 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< the bad-toys-breed-psychos theory >>

I like that. It's elegant.
Goofy, but elegant.

Sandra

Elizabeth Hill

** B: I really want a toy gun.
M. I know, I really don't want you to have one.
B: Why not?
M: Because I don't like toy guns (totally weak reason I know)
B: then I won't ask you toy play with it.**


Hi, Laura --

I just wanted to extend you a bit of sympathy. We started out with no
guns, but it only lasted until my son was two or three and could make
his opinions known clearly. We have lots of Nerf weaponry, and I end up
having my own lame conversations in the toy aisle : "You already have 17
Nerf guns and they take up a lot of space -- why do you need another
one?" (So I know I'm being an annoying source of friction.)

Projectile weapons that you can aim and knock things over with really
are fun.

If you have to, could you sidle up to toy guns gradually? First a
little catapult (Playmobil), and then a safe type of dart board, and
then a gun that shoots foam pingpong balls?

If you don't like guns, I find it helps to have a rule that the gun can
only be pointed at someone who consents to be in the game. I get
creeped out when the bright plastic gun gets pointed at me. And I think
it's important to respect this feeling and not turn non-participating
people into targets

Betsy

PS My 10 year old boy is very sweet and considerate even though he
possesses a large arsenal of projectile toys. Once he had an allowance,
he could spend it on anything legal that he wanted.

Robyn Coburn

<<<<Goofy, but elegant.>>>>

Sounds like a giraffe.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Danielle Conger

===Robyn wrote:

It is sometimes harder for people to deal with very realistic looking guns,
rather than colorful "ray guns" or something other weapon like faux swords.
On occasion people have been concerned that other park users will get "the
wrong impression" about our kids, especially during war-time. It is possible
to get tied into knots of non-logic worrying about pretty unlikely scenarios
and the opinions of unconnected strangers.

==========

Yes, this was my own personal slippery slope. *g* Initially, I was very
anti-gun. Just wasn't going to happen. I bought the girls those squirt
guns that looked like fish instead of guns, etc.

Three summers ago, there were these really cool (to my mind) Buzz
Lightyear Bubbleguns. I rationalized buying them by thinking to myself,
"They'll never get hurt by picking up a stray ray gun." or something
along those lines.

Finally, about a year ago, I began reading more here, and we'd been
watching some of the presidential addresses on the war in Iraq. Emily
was simultaneously making up and singing war protest songs and marching
around, singing "Women of War! We are Women of War!" This list and Em's
own actions made me begin to realize how important it was to honor her
need to play and work through war and violence in her own way.

Then about a month or so later, we were in Colonial Williamsburg and Sam
really wanted a wooden pistol, so we got that. Then it was a Star Wars
light saber, or as the kids say, "light saver."

Then we started going to Walmart and places looking for swords, shields,
etc. We now have quite an extensive and wonderful collection of
different kinds of swords and a few guns. We just recently picked up a
pirate's blunder buster. We picked up a cool Eyewitness book on the
history of Arms and Armor, and have had great fun all around. Despite
the negative talk about ren fairs here ;) we're hoping to go to the one
here in Maryland this year and pick up a cool wooden sword and shield.

We've had instances where we've put the weapon up until Sam (4) was
ready to be responsible with it: i.e. not hit people or puppies with it.
But I certainly have not noticed *more* violent play in any way. I
remember someone here, I think, posting about how violent video games
actually gave her son an *outlet* for his aggression that was necessary
and far more healthy than repressing those explorations. That made such
sense to me and has really rung true in my experience.
<>--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

Angela S

I recently saw some toy guns at the dollar store that shoot ping pong balls.
They looked really cool, but I wondered if they worked very well. Does
anyone have any experience with those?

Angela ~ Maine



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/04 11:34:56 AM,
UnschoolingDiscussion-accept-PYGgxPJBo_NmuPncRp28qfM@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< I think the other thing I did, which I know many people would not

agree with, was tried to let Nick know about the cultural war around

toy guns and video games. There are some situations where, in

consideration of others, we don't bring our guns. We don't bring them

to our homeschooling support group Park Day. >>

We did that too. They knew some families didn't like it. And interestingly,
they thought those moms just weren't very bright. And the more we got to
know the families, the more I agreed.

Some moms truly do think they can control a kid's thoughts by controlling
what they touch and see.

-=-we choose to be concerned about

what makes our friends uncomfortable.-=-

We do too, and my kids are better at remembering than I am when one family or
another likes avoid Harry Potter or magic-anything or fairies or bad words or
South Park or whatever. I draw the line at The Simpsons, though. We just
put up a big poster of all the characters, framed, right at the bottom of the
stairs. Anyone who doesn't approve of the Simpsons can just turn around and
go back home.

Sandra

Sandra

Danielle Conger

Sandra wrote:

We do too, and my kids are better at remembering than I am when one family or
another likes avoid Harry Potter or magic-anything or fairies or bad words or
South Park or whatever.
========

I've always felt so bad for the kids who can't celebrate Halloween. I still remember the first time I met a child who was not allowed to celebrate "demons".

So, so sad.

<>--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 12:02:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lauraj2@... writes:

This is getting too long so I won't go on. We are on the continuim, but I
don't know how to get through this part.<<<<

Simplest way would be to buy the gun! <G>

~Kelly








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Liz Grimes

> But I certainly have not noticed *more* violent play in any way. I
> remember someone here, I think, posting about how violent video games
> actually gave her son an *outlet* for his aggression that was necessary
> and far more healthy than repressing those explorations. That made such
> sense to me and has really rung true in my experience.
>

This is so true for some children, but not all or in all circumstances. My
9 yo will play very rough forceful games and be able to stop and change
activities rather quickly. My 13, who lived a life surrounded by violence
until joining our family, can not change activities. Once he is playing
rough & tumble sorts of games--even some video football games are too
much--he carries it over into all his activities. His boundaries are sooooo
very blurred that he can not play any violent/rough/forceful games without
getting carried away and not knowing when to stop. This can make it
difficult for him in social setting where other children can appropriately
play in such fashion but I can not allow him to do so for fear of it going
too far and someone getting hurt. Of course his 200 lbs size combine with
his developmental level of about 6 year contributes greatly to the risk.

This sometimes causes families that don't realize his history look at me a
bit strange when I will allow one child to participate in play but not the
other.

Peace,
Liz

Laura Johnson

----Laura, send me your address and I will send your kid some guns.
Honest. Marty needs a new pair of toy cowboy guns with Halloween coming and
all anyway. Does he want brown or black? That way you're totally out of the
loop. Don't even open the package, I'll address it to him.

I think I'm going to let him buy it with his money. That was part of his arguement, that I wouldn't have to buy it, he has his own money. He is a saver, so he has plenty. But, thank you for the offer. He likes to pick things out and will probably spend a few weeks comparison shopping and choosing just the right one. That's part of the fun I think. He is a discriminating shopper.
But, thank you, that would of made it easier. If I'm gonna do this, I'll just jump on in and let him select his own.

---They're just not thinking, your friends.
Do they think that those who do drugs and steal had their mothers'
permission? That she went to Walmart and bought them some drugs or took them down there
to steal?

good point!


---Being five won't be repeated either. Maybe next time he's where that game
is he'll feel very differently about it, but keeping him from making a choice
will just add more factors.

One good thing came of that incident. We talked about what he can do the next time he is in a situation that kids are doing things that makes him uncomfortable but he doesn't want to speak up because they might not like him. (handy for later for really big issues I think) I'm glad we had this chance to talk about peer pressure under a basically benign scenario.


---And there are rubber band guns made of wood with a clothespin mounted on
them. Those really can hurt, though. I'd go for the make-believe "bang" or caps,
not rubber bands.


Yes, he is afraid of rubber bands, when he was younger, he had one over his head and it snapped on both of his eyes and scratched his eyeballs pretty badly. He will just now touch one, but always retells that story.

I think I'm moving towards the gun thing, with some guidelines. I like the don't point it at anyone who is not playing. We do have blasters, so we aren't far away. The main thing I don't want him to feel is that he is somehow bad for wanting something I clearly don't like, kwim? Would he think "if mom doesn't like these, they are bad, if I want one, I'm bad for wanting one." That would be terrible.

The friends I have are noticing that we are really moving in a new direction. I am so much more relaxed about things, but I'm having a hard time not rolling my eyes at things they are doing and saying. We were always the most relaxed about things amoung our friends, now especially.

They were appalled that we taught him to play Magic the Gathering, let him watch Star Wars and Harry Potter movies, and let him eat candy. They will just have to continue to be appalled.!! I'll let ya'll know how it goes. Thanks for helping me sort through this.
Laura J

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 4:08:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
If you don't like guns, I find it helps to have a rule that the gun can
only be pointed at someone who consents to be in the game. I get
creeped out when the bright plastic gun gets pointed at me. And I think
it's important to respect this feeling and not turn non-participating
people into targets

-----------

We've had that deal always. "I'm not playing" is the magic safety from being
shot, hit, tickled, whatever.

"It's only playing if everyone is playing."

But with guns that really shot things (ping pong balls or darts) put up light
targets that can be knocked over. Folded cardboard or paper cups or
something.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 4:09:46 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lauraj2@... writes:
Would he think "if mom doesn't like these, they are bad, if I want one, I'm
bad for wanting one." That would be terrible.
-------

It might become "mom's not very bright" and that would be worse.

-=- They were appalled that we taught him to play Magic the Gathering, let
him watch Star Wars and Harry Potter movies, and let him eat candy. -=-

That middle thing, Star Wars and Harry Potter...

WHAT!?
Are they grumpy because people are getting rich off them?

Very strange.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

Right now we have a lot of "it's not playing catch if you throw the
ball at someone who doesn't want to play catch!" Then it's just
hitting your sister in the head with a ball.

Laura, _Playful Parenting_ by L. Cohen has a lot of good reasons to
allow violent play and toy guns. There's someone else I read who
wrote about violent play not leading to violent behavior, but I can't
remember his name! Maybe his first name was Gerald. Not having much
luck googling "toy guns violence Gerald" for some reason, lol.

When you open up to the idea that a toy gun in a 5 yr old's hand
might not automatically lead to criminal behavior, some of the
reasons other people have start looking a little weaker. Like people
who won't allow guns but think it's cute that their kids like to
crash toy cars together. Personally, I'm kinda paranoid about cars,
so I tend to go hide my keys when toy cars start crashing...

As for my own "having trouble letting go" area...well, I've got a lot
of deschooling to go, but I'm talking the talk and attempting to walk
the walk in most areas...and dealing with lots of skinned knees! I've
got a big issue with wanting polite behavior to be directed at me. I
want to make my kids be polite to me (and others, certainly). I want
to make dh by polite to me. I want the world to be polite and
respectful, damn it! And until I let go of the expectation that the
world, esp. the small world inside this house, _should_ be
respectful, I'm going to keep getting annoyed and saying things
like "you're not getting it until you ask nicely" and feeling
perfectly justified.

Okay, that's my confession. What's the UD equivilent of 20 Hail
Mary's??

--awaiting my penance,
aj

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> We've had that deal always. "I'm not playing" is the magic safety
from being
> shot, hit, tickled, whatever.
>
> "It's only playing if everyone is playing."
>
> But with guns that really shot things (ping pong balls or darts)
put up light
> targets that can be knocked over. Folded cardboard or paper cups
or
> something.

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:24:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mamaaj2000@... writes:
I want
to make dh by polite to me. I want the world to be polite and
respectful, damn it! And until I let go of the expectation that the
world, esp. the small world inside this house, _should_ be
respectful, I'm going to keep getting annoyed and saying things
like "you're not getting it until you ask nicely" and feeling
perfectly justified.

Okay, that's my confession. What's the UD equivilent of 20 Hail
Mary's??
==============

Hmmm...

Three secret good deeds.
No one can know, so you can't expect or receive thanks or recognition.

How's that?

If you tell one, it's cancelled out and you have to do another one to make up
for it.

It's not penance, it's. . . therapeutic practice.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:24:44 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> mamaaj2000@y... writes:
> Okay, that's my confession. What's the UD equivilent of 20 Hail
> Mary's??
> ==============
>
> Hmmm...
>
> Three secret good deeds.
> No one can know, so you can't expect or receive thanks or
recognition.

Oh, thank you Sister Sandra!

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 8:47:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Okay, that's my confession. What's the UD equivilent of 20 Hail
Mary's??
==============

Hmmm...

Three secret good deeds.
No one can know, so you can't expect or receive thanks or recognition.

How's that?

If you tell one, it's cancelled out and you have to do another one to _make
up_ (mip://06f64070/make%20up)
for it.

It's not penance, it's. . . therapeutic practice.<<<<<

I was going to say 20 Hail John's. But I think Sandra's is cooler. <g>

~Kelly

.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 9:34:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

>>Okay, that's my confession. What's the UD equivilent of 20 Hail
Mary's??
==============

Hmmm...

Three secret good deeds.
No one can know, so you can't expect or receive thanks or recognition.<<
***************************
Depending on my confession (impatience with the kids, taking someone for
granted, wanting to flog my husband...) our priest always says (for penance) to
do something nice for the person I "wronged." So much more productive than
10 hail Marys! And if he think's I'm being to hard on myself, he suggests a
good book to read (not always a religious one!), meditating, and taking it
easy :o)

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/30/2004 3:51:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lgrimes@... writes:

>>This sometimes causes families that don't realize his history look at me a
bit strange when I will allow one child to participate in play but not the
other.<<
***************
Liz - we have an 11 yo adopted son who is exactly the same way. He goes too
far...not stopping when other kids feel he's getting too wild,...Your
description of having "blurred lines" is so true. He has a real problem when it
comes to relating appropriately with adults (will often try to play rough,
taunt to try and get them to chase him, etc.) It's really hard to know when to
let him go and when to divert his attention to something else.

Nancy b.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Sep 30, 2004, at 5:22 PM, mamaaj2000 wrote:

> I'm going to keep getting annoyed and saying things
> like "you're not getting it until you ask nicely" and feeling
> perfectly justified.

"You could ask me more nicely."

"I don't like to be talked to that way."

I sometimes do ask my kids, "Did you mean it to sound like that?"

Do you see any reason not to let kids KNOW that?

Of course there are times and places and situations that are not good
for saying these things, but at least we ought to let the kids know how
they're coming across.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Julie

*** Laura, _Playful Parenting_ by L. Cohen has a lot of good reasons to
allow violent play and toy guns. There's someone else I read who
wrote about violent play not leading to violent behavior, but I can't
remember his name! Maybe his first name was Gerald. Not having much
luck googling "toy guns violence Gerald" for some reason, lol. ***

The book is called Killing Monsters. Gerald is right, can't remember the
other part of his name.
Good book!

Julie

Nisha

We don't do realistic guns, for a reason. We have a real gun in the
house. If my kids come across a real looking gun, I want them to
avoid it, come get me, their dad, who ever. I knew someone whose son
found a real gun buried in the stuff under the play equipment at the
playground.(nothing horrible happened, but it was weird and more than
a little scary because it was partially loaded) It happens rarely,
but it can happen.
They will eventually take a gun safety course. Yes,the one the NRA
does. I'm not a big supporter of the NRA, but that is one thing that
they do very well. They have a pretty comprehensive parent and child
gun safety course. Since we will be living in Texas, where guns are
very common, esp in other people's houses, and we will probably have
at least a couple, I want the kids to know what guns can do, and how
to handle a weapon safely.
But, for now, no real looking guns, because I don't want them to get
confused about real or fake guns. our real guns look real, their guns
are pink, purple, orange and green and look like something out of a
bad sci fi movie.
The gun daddy uses at work, sometimes, they have seen, up close.
they have held it. It's a really big real gun that can shoot a whole
lot of times. They have actually crawled around on and inside of
tanks and seen those really big guns too. (It happens when you live
on a military base.)They have also asked more than one police officer
or MP about their gun or their dog, or their car or their siren. But
until they are old enough to really distinguish real guns from toy
guns, we aren't going to allow realistic toy guns in the house. I
know several people who come from hunting/ target shooting families,
who have done very similar things with their kids. It just seems to
make sense to me to do it that way. My son is one of those kids who
would make guns out of legos, sticks, breadsticks, or his finger
before we decided to let this issue go. He's really okay with the non
realistic guns that we have for him to play with. I don't like the
repetitive bang bang bang, that usually accompanies gun play. SO,
since most of the kids guns look like ray guns, they make other
noises with them. SO we're all happy with that.
As far as the video games go, both Marty and I agree, we aren't going
to spend a few hundrend dollars our money on a video game system.
When the kids are older, and they can find a way to pay for it out of
their money, so be it. But it's not something we find really worth
it. There are enough computer games out there for our kids to be
happy with for now. (the kids are 3 and 6)
nisha


-- In [email protected], "Laura Johnson"
<lauraj2@v...> wrote:

> Do you all have any hold out issues? Things that go against your
grain to just let go of? I'm trying hard to get through this gun
thing, because he wants one. I dont' know why it bothers me so
much. I've had some family members killed by guns, two in law
enforcement, one by suicide, but I'm not sure that's the issue for
me.
>

Nisha

-
The neighbor boy that my son enjoys playing with the most is in that
group. We were talking about when we are going to let our frog go
(it's indigenous, it showed up on our doorstep and we need to let it
go so it can go hibernate) and I said something about probably around
halloween. The little boy's eyes got really big, and he said, "You
guys celebrate halloween?!?" I told him, yes, we did. It is my
favorite holiday. He said something about, but it's Satan's
birthday... I probably shouldn't have handled it the way I did, but I
told him, not to us it wasn't. It is/was a pagan holiday, but it
really doesn't have anything to do with Satan historically. He asked
if we dressed up and did trick or treating, and said, yeah, we do
both. We usually go to at least one halloween party, and do trick or
treating at the mall too. He asked about razors in the candy, like it
was something that is really common. I told him that we don't eat
anything that looks suspicious, and that there are places that will
xray the candy for you if you want to do that. We just don't go to
people's houses that we don't know and anything that even looks like
it might have been opened or damaged goes in the trash. I felt really
sorry for the kid. He obviously WANTS to do trick or treating.
Nisha


-- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@c...> wrote:
> I've always felt so bad for the kids who can't celebrate Halloween.
I still remember the first time I met a child who was not allowed to
celebrate "demons".
>
> So, so sad.
>
> <>--Danielle