Ren Allen

"P.S. Sorry if others do not agree, that is ok. I do not believe
that you have to cut away all limits to be an unchooler, I believe
in balance and moderation, not to make my life easier, but to
provide a healthy home for those I love. "


By saying "to provide a healthy home for those I love" it seems
there is an implication that those of us that don't control our
children's choices, are not providing a healthy home.
Maybe what should be getting asked here, is HOW do people that don't
limit choices make their homes a safe, healthy environment for all
involved? If those that DO limit, want to understand how it works,
the questions maybe shouldn't revolve only around "why", but
also "how"?

My children are healthy, well-balanced, aware individuals that feel
very safe in their home. How is that happening in a home that does
not set arbitrary limits on their viewing/eating/learning?
It works.
A lot of us that do not impose our own limits on our children, used
to.....so we've seen both sides of the issue and how it affects our
familiies. If you've only been on the side of controlling choices,
it's hard to really understand how it works without those controls
in place, I understand!
But there is a lot of information these families can share, because
they are living without these controls, and yet still providing a
safe, healthy, nurturing environment for their children.

Ren

Faith Void

I am not even sure where to start. I feel really frustrated right now.
It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives). Dh
suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I geared
myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to go. He
wanted to play first. I tried to explain that it wouldn't work because
it would get too hot (middle of day) and that the baby would need a
nap around noonish. He locked in. Instead of fight because there was
no space to work it out with him. I just had to walk away. Then I was
just getting up to go inside and put the baby down for a nap when ds5
says he's ready for a walk! I explain that it isn't a good time, I am
putting the baby down for a nap. So he is angry about that. Then his
friends come over and he just wants to play with them. And they all
want so much!!!
They want my attention and for me to be flexible and I am not feeling
it. I feel like it is all just too much. I feel like I am out of
control. I feel mean and bitter. It feels like people are crossing all
my boundaries and I don't know what to do. I feel like a failure. I
want to yell and scream (but I don't). But I can't seem to switch my
perspective or get on with my day. This happens too often, I just lock
into an idea and can let go. I feel like a failure. Anyway, I have
asked this before my I still haven't figured it out. How can I be ok
and have my needs met if I am busting my ass meeting everyone elses?
How I am supposed to be ok when I don't know how to?

I made the mistake of calling my mother. She just told me that she put
us to bed at 9 pm every night so she could get a break from us. That
idea doesn't work for me (it didn't then either as I could never fall
asleep until well after midnight). Now on top of my frustration with
the day i am feeling resentful of her for forcing me to bed when I
wasn't tired. I feel/felt like such an inconvenience to her, someone
to "put up with". I DON"T want my kids to feel that. But I can't find
balance. I can't figure this out.

Faith

--
www.bearthmama.com

Judy R

Oh. my dear, I feel for you - I only had 2 at once (twins) but there were for sure days when I was over the edge, and I wasnt'a total unschooler at the time, but going along that track (by myself, of course, no support from hubby or family).

So, actually I probably can't help you much, with the different needs of the different ages since mine were the same age - i know some people use those sling-thingies so that babies can fall asleep anywhere, anytime - but I don't know, maybe yours is too big for that, - or could the baby fall alseep in a stroller if you're going for a walk?

I do remember when we were living in the country when they were little and my h was commuting weekly, so not home during the week - especially in winter, when they were resistant to going out - and I would decide that we were going to go out because I felt they needed to get out, I felt guilty if they stayed in and watched TV "too long" - so I would try to organize them to go out - and one would want to go and one wouldn't - so whose need do I fulfill? I can't leave one in the house by herself at 4yo...most of the time we ended up not going because there didn't seem to be any other choice. And if I did succeed in getting them out, I HAD to let go of ANY perconceived idea of what was to transpire - I have also read this about going on walks with children - you have to give up *any* adult expectations of what taking a walk means.

Have you ever read any Naomi Aldort? She is wonderful and has an excellent way of helping to uncover what's going on in one's mind when feeling frustrated with children. She has a book out, you can find in on Amazon, can't remember what it's called, but I really, really think it would help.

With your 5 year old, that just sounds very typical of 5 year olds - and it can be hard as an adult to let go of the idea of what "should" happen and be able to go with the flow - allow the idea that it's OK that he changes his mind about what he wants to do; allow yourself to let go of the idea that there :should" be a schedule and that things are "bad" if that schedule isn't met - of course, the hard part for you is not having time to yourself when you can expect it at a certain time everyday - but as you say that may not be fair to the kids, as was the case with your own mother and you - maybe you can find a way to be at rest in your mind even when with the kids? I think Naomi Aldort speaks to this kind of idea- it's also a buddhist notion - to be able to be at peace and at rest in your mind, even all the time - so the external "what is happening" does not dictate what you are feeling on the inside - you are in a peaceful state...it is your "thought" that you can't get your needs met when you are with your kids that is making this happen - what if your thought was "My needs are being met all the time?" for instance? anyway, I'm sure I don't explain it as well as she does - I beg you to go get that book! You need some relief! good luck - Judy R


----- Original Message -----
From: Faith Void
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] balance


I am not even sure where to start. I feel really frustrated right now.
It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives). Dh
suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I geared
myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to go. He
wanted to play first. I tried to explain that it wouldn't work because
it would get too hot (middle of day) and that the baby would need a
nap around noonish. He locked in. Instead of fight because there was
no space to work it out with him. I just had to walk away. Then I was
just getting up to go inside and put the baby down for a nap when ds5
says he's ready for a walk! I explain that it isn't a good time, I am
putting the baby down for a nap. So he is angry about that. Then his
friends come over and he just wants to play with them. And they all
want so much!!!
They want my attention and for me to be flexible and I am not feeling
it. I feel like it is all just too much. I feel like I am out of
control. I feel mean and bitter. It feels like people are crossing all
my boundaries and I don't know what to do. I feel like a failure. I
want to yell and scream (but I don't). But I can't seem to switch my
perspective or get on with my day. This happens too often, I just lock
into an idea and can let go. I feel like a failure. Anyway, I have
asked this before my I still haven't figured it out. How can I be ok
and have my needs met if I am busting my ass meeting everyone elses?
How I am supposed to be ok when I don't know how to?

I made the mistake of calling my mother. She just told me that she put
us to bed at 9 pm every night so she could get a break from us. That
idea doesn't work for me (it didn't then either as I could never fall
asleep until well after midnight). Now on top of my frustration with
the day i am feeling resentful of her for forcing me to bed when I
wasn't tired. I feel/felt like such an inconvenience to her, someone
to "put up with". I DON"T want my kids to feel that. But I can't find
balance. I can't figure this out.

Faith

--
www.bearthmama.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Judy R

Hi Faith - another suggestion - are you a member of the yahoo group unschooling_canada? It's a very active list with many supportive people who have been unschooling for years - I am certain they will have lots of advice for you if you care to join, or if you would like me to forward your post to that list....
----- Original Message -----
From: Faith Void
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] balance


I am not even sure where to start. I feel really frustrated right now.
It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives). Dh
suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I geared
myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to go. He
wanted to play first. I tried to explain that it wouldn't work because
it would get too hot (middle of day) and that the baby would need a
nap around noonish. He locked in. Instead of fight because there was
no space to work it out with him. I just had to walk away. Then I was
just getting up to go inside and put the baby down for a nap when ds5
says he's ready for a walk! I explain that it isn't a good time, I am
putting the baby down for a nap. So he is angry about that. Then his
friends come over and he just wants to play with them. And they all
want so much!!!
They want my attention and for me to be flexible and I am not feeling
it. I feel like it is all just too much. I feel like I am out of
control. I feel mean and bitter. It feels like people are crossing all
my boundaries and I don't know what to do. I feel like a failure. I
want to yell and scream (but I don't). But I can't seem to switch my
perspective or get on with my day. This happens too often, I just lock
into an idea and can let go. I feel like a failure. Anyway, I have
asked this before my I still haven't figured it out. How can I be ok
and have my needs met if I am busting my ass meeting everyone elses?
How I am supposed to be ok when I don't know how to?

I made the mistake of calling my mother. She just told me that she put
us to bed at 9 pm every night so she could get a break from us. That
idea doesn't work for me (it didn't then either as I could never fall
asleep until well after midnight). Now on top of my frustration with
the day i am feeling resentful of her for forcing me to bed when I
wasn't tired. I feel/felt like such an inconvenience to her, someone
to "put up with". I DON"T want my kids to feel that. But I can't find
balance. I can't figure this out.

Faith

--
www.bearthmama.com




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Hey Faith - I think what you need is practice in finding solutions.
Sounds like you know that you didn't get a lot of practice in
consensus-building when you were growing up. Try thinking of more
options before deciding on a course of action.

For example, you said you had to put the baby down for a nap. Try to
think of some other options. Maybe push the baby in a stroller so he/
she can nap while you walk. Carry the baby in a sling. Delay the
baby's nap. Carry baby in a backpack. Instead of a walk, play a game
together while the baby is napping. Instead of walking now, walk later
in the evening when it cools off.

This lifestyle really does require far more flexibility and creative
thinking than conventional parenting. Most of us had to learn to do it.

With young children, ALL plans are contingent on their state of
"being." A really good way to avoid frustration is to be clear in your
own head about that. When you start thinking, "We'll go for a walk,
the whole family, that will be so sweet," then stop yourself and
think, "If it works out, maybe we'll ....".

Your "need" that is really not being met, by the way, is a need to
control. You might want to think about that a bit and see if it is
really what you want or whether it might not be nicer for you, too, if
you let go of that.

-pam


On Jun 15, 2008, at 11:13 AM, Faith Void wrote:

> I am not even sure where to start. I feel really frustrated right now.
> It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
> and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives). Dh
> suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I geared
> myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to go.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rebecca de

Faith

 I'm really not a great help here but I wanted to share with you -- that I am very glad you wrote this -- because I often feel the way you said. Bitter, angery, failure.   I also get the infamous bed time thing.  But bed time isn't usually an issue, I enjoy my night times with my boys (5 and 2).   I really think that all we can keep doing when things seem out of balance is keep trying.  Or better yet maybe just not try!! Meaning just stop and become quiet and try to hear what our children want.  I think that sometimes we just can't always make them happy with our decisions.  It seems like when our kiddos dig their heels in maybe they are just trying to gain some sort of "control" -- it probably does feel like everything is always decided by someone else.  With the instance with your son, I wonder if you could have just taken the moment to Play like he said if all would have ceased. If he's anything like
my boys sometimes they absolutely want something their way but within no time their asking to do the other ... 

One thing I noticed is I've asked questions very similiar to your own and we can analyze the heck out of it yet -- when another issue comes up were going to try some of things mentioned but for the most part  doesn't it feel like each incident requires a different reaction.  (or no reaction) 

You are a good parent -- at least your trying different ways and you are not giving in to yelling and screaming ! (I can't say that ...)

Blessing and sorry for no real solutions























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nance Confer

Where was DH during all of this? Was there some reason he couldn't take DS5 for the walk? Or come up with some other scenario where it isn't all Mom, all the time?
OTOH, it sounds like a learning opportunity to me for DS5. Time A was cool enough and everyone was awake enough to go for a walk. You chose to do something else. That option is no longer available at Time B.

Nance

balance
Posted by: "Faith Void" littlemsvoid@... bloodyknucklesclub
Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:13 am (PDT)
I am not even sure where to start. I feel really frustrated right now.
It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives). Dh
suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I geared
myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to go. He
wanted to play first. I tried to explain that it wouldn't work because
it would get too hot (middle of day) and that the baby would need a
nap around noonish. He locked in. Instead of fight because there was
no space to work it out with him. I just had to walk away. Then I was
just getting up to go inside and put the baby down for a nap when ds5
says he's ready for a walk! I explain that it isn't a good time, I am
putting the baby down for a nap. So he is angry about that. Then his
friends come over and he just wants to play with them. And they all
want so much!!!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carenkh

I'm sorry I don't have specific suggestions to offer, but the title of
this post reminded me...

I went to a workshop recently where the speaker brought up the word
"balance". He said balance is overrated, and perhaps we should think
less of balance and more of harmony. An orchestra is not balanced...
the composer doesn't have the flute playing for 4 measures, then the
timpani playing for 4 measures, each one playing the exact same number
of notes... but they play in harmony, with sometimes one instrument
being featured over the others.

peace,
Caren

marji

At 18:39 6/16/2008, you wrote:
>I went to a workshop recently where the speaker brought up the word
>"balance". He said balance is overrated, and perhaps we should think
>less of balance and more of harmony. An orchestra is not balanced...
>the composer doesn't have the flute playing for 4 measures, then the
>timpani playing for 4 measures, each one playing the exact same number
>of notes... but they play in harmony, with sometimes one instrument
>being featured over the others.


What a beautiful analogy, Caren! To take it a little further,
sometimes there's dissonance and tension in the piece, but that's
part of the composition, and it is beautiful nevertheless (Samuel
Barber's tragic "Adagio for Strings" leaps to my mind).

Thank you for pointing that out!

~Marji






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<http://joyfullyparenting.com/>JoyFully Parenting & Life Coaching
<http://gaiawolf.org/>GaiaWolf ~ Music for the Planet
<http://myspace.com/marjizintz>Marji's Myspace Page
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>
> I feel really frustrated right now.
> It is Father's day and I was looking forward to hanging out with dh
> and the 2 kids that are at home (the 3rd is in FL with relatives).
Dh
> suggested we go for a walk and everyone seemed to want to go. I
geared
> myself up for it but then my ds5 decided that he didn't want to
go. He
> wanted to play first.

I think the problem here is that you also got locked in. You had an
expectation of going on that walk. You really wanted to go and it
was taken away from you. It's hard not to get upset over something
like that.

>Then I was
> just getting up to go inside and put the baby down for a nap when
ds5
> says he's ready for a walk! I explain that it isn't a good time, I
am
> putting the baby down for a nap. So he is angry about that. Then
his
> friends come over and he just wants to play with them.

This type of thing happens here all the time. My 4.5yo is caught up
in the moment. He wants to do whatever it is right now.

> I feel like it is all just too much. I feel like I am out of
> control. I feel mean and bitter. It feels like people are crossing
all
> my boundaries and I don't know what to do. I feel like a failure. I
> want to yell and scream (but I don't).

Can you just sit with those feelings for a while? Let them wash over
you. Let yourself experience them without any judgement. They are
just feelings. You are entitled to your feelings just like anyone
else. What matters is how you act on those feelings.

>But I can't seem to switch my
> perspective or get on with my day. This happens too often, I just
lock
> into an idea and can let go. I feel like a failure. Anyway, I have
> asked this before my I still haven't figured it out. How can I be
ok
> and have my needs met if I am busting my ass meeting everyone
elses?
> How I am supposed to be ok when I don't know how to?

Reasses your needs? I had to do that. Whenever the weekend comes I
feel the need to do something with the family. We have to go on an
outing to the beach or the park or the museum or something. Every
time we try we end up fighting. My husband and I bicker over the
silliest things as we are heading out the door. I think to
myself, "Do I really need to go out and do something or do I just
want to feel connected to my family?" What I really want is to feel
connected to my family and my efforts to do something to make that
happen were backfiring. I can feel connected to my famil when we are
all at home doing nothing together if I let myself.

Did you really *need* to go on that walk? Can you all hang out at
home together doing your own things and doing things with each other
and still have the same thing as if you went on a walk?

> I made the mistake of calling my mother. She just told me that she
put
> us to bed at 9 pm every night so she could get a break from us.
That
> idea doesn't work for me (it didn't then either as I could never
fall
> asleep until well after midnight). Now on top of my frustration
with
> the day i am feeling resentful of her for forcing me to bed when I
> wasn't tired. I feel/felt like such an inconvenience to her,
someone
> to "put up with". I DON"T want my kids to feel that.

I've btdt, too. My mother is not someone I could usually call when I
had a problem like that but she was always the person I would call
because I didn't have anyone else. I'd always feel worse after
talking to her. I finally learned to stop calling her.

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> With young children, ALL plans are contingent on their state of
> "being."

That is so true! Just today I had an issue with that. We are going
on a trip tomorrow. Today I needed to get things washed, packed,
cleaned, etc. to be ready to leave tomorrow. My husband is not here
so it's all on me to get it done. I'm the one who has chosen to go
on this trip so I'm the one who has to deal with getting everything
done to go. For whatever reason, my baby did not want to take a nap
today. He just wasn't tired, I guess. I was waiting and waiting for
him to take a nap so I could get a shower so that I could wash the
clothes I was wearing with the last load of laundry I wanted to get
done before packing. I was getting very frustrated that he was not
falling asleep so I could get this stuff done. I could either
continue to want to do my thing and continue to get frustrated that
the baby wasn't cooperating or I could change my expectations, my
plans. That's what I did.

I forgot about taking a shower. I wasn't planning to go anywhere
anyway. I washed the laundry load without the clothes I was wearing
because they weren't really something I needed to take with me. And,
of course, as soon as I did that the baby fell asleep and I got to
take a shower. :)

Alysia

Ren Allen

~~I think the problem here is that you also got locked in. You had an
expectation of going on that walk. You really wanted to go and it
was taken away from you.~~


I didn't have time to respond earlier, but this is exactly what I was
thinking. I remember having those feelings earlier in this parenting
journey and what I've learned is a very buddhist
concept...non-attachment. Not that I have it down pat or anything!;)

I had this vision of this peaceful unschooling family, smiling and
walking hand-in-hand, joyfully exploring the world, always doing
amazing things and getting along beautifully. Lovely vision right? And
totally unrealistic!

Life is messy. People get irritated with each other, plans change
midstream, milk gets spilled and walks don't always happen. What
matters most is how we embrace the WHOLE. How we can stand there and
hear the kids fighting and see the sink full of dishes and smile to
ourselves because THAT is a part of the beauty.

Sierra wanted to make Bleu a Father's day breakfast. We talked about
getting up before him and cooking something yummy to surprise
him....instead of going to sleep early enough she stayed up until
about 4am and couldn't get up to make breakfast. She stayed up with
her Dad watching tv though, and that time connecting together was more
important than the breakfast in the end.

I could have held onto that idyllic sounding breakfast and been really
bummed out when it didn't happen, I could have made it myself OR I can
just accept the reality that is right in front of me...a sleepy dh and
daughter that enjoy each other's company every day. So what is
Father's day in the face of that? Nothing. It's the daily connections
that matter and we can have a special breakfast anytime we choose.

Let it go...breathe deep and see that your child wanted to take a walk
at a different time than you deemed appropriate. That's ok. Go with
it. Release that "perfect unschooling vision" and BE with what is
happening. It takes some time, but the more you're aware of how you're
being attached to a certain outcome, the better you get at NOT being
attached.:)

I highly recommend "Wherever you go there you are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Marie

My question would be what to do when your spouse clearly has issues
that are contributing to an unhealthy atmosphere. I still find that
my biggest hurdle is balancing my husband's needs. He supports
unschooling for education sake but straddles the parenting philosophy
with great reluctance. He's inconsistent and often times unloads
tantrums of his own, shouting "If they were in school they'd be in
bed!". I think I can see now this happens when his needs are not
being met but he is also not as child-centered as I thought he would
be. I worry that this is going to be the undoing of our 18 year
marriage. It isn't what I had in mind at all and I am beginning to
obsess about raising a dysfunctional family.

For example, after a long and labor intensive day, my husband's day
ends after dinner and in bed unwinding with TV. He misses the days
when his children would cuddle around him but they are now 11 and 8
off doing other things. At 8:00 p.m. they are not thinking about
bed. They want to read, watch their own TV. programs, play a game,
etc. They want me to join them and I do. I like to put my daughter
to bed and read to her then spend some time unraveling the day with
my son. By the time all this is said and done it is 10:30 and DH has
fallen asleep often ticked off.

Sadly, he can't sit still. Always working or working on the house.
The kids just want to enjoy time with him. He can't. He won't. I
think he would like to but he can't sit still long enough to engage
with the kids. Doesn't want to play, doesn't enjoy playing. I could
just cry rivers for my son who just wants his bad to play catch with
him. He won't even let me catch with him now because it just
emphasize more the point that his Dad doesn't want to. I've tried to
explain that there are days when I don't want to play either but it
brings me closer to them when I can let go.

I can already see that DH has missed that window of opportunity to
connect with the children. He's the ogre to all of us some days and
they just don't want any part of it. I can't blame them. They are
gun shy so to speak. It's not all doom and gloom but I know that
it's those scary moments we hold onto in our memory often diminish
the good times. At the same time, he loves his children so much.
Our 11 DS still sleeps with us and he loves that he's right there
beside him recalling that he never had that growing up. His parents
were very controlling and raised kids to be seen and not heard. For
him, it has been a huge leap of faith to allow his children more
freedom than he ever had. He's doing his best, but sometimes it's
hard to feel that his best is good enough. Soothing the hurt and
saying, "….but your Dad loves you so much" isn't much to go on
anymore.

Advice?

Judy R

My experience is not going to be very heartening, I'm afraid - even before we started homeschooling-that-morphed-into unschooling, my husband showed signs of not being able to connect with the girls in some significant ways (we have twins, now 13 1/2) - he almost never helped when they were babies, he was still working up until they were in Grade 3, at which point he was able to take early retirement, which allowed us to move out the country where we (I, anyway) thought life would be blissful - what could be better than raising kids in the country? They were attending a very small rural school, and we were both at home.
My husband, however, is, perhaps like yours, not big on sitting still, which I find is essential for being with kids; you have to move a their pace, and that often means waiting for them to be ready to do whatever...he also did not get that just impulsively yelling at them in the middle of a game to "remember that you have to clean this mess up!" was not useful and did not result in the "mess" being picked up - and as he himself is just about the messiest person in the universe (it's *other people's* mess that he can't tolerate), let's just say that he lacked "street-cred" on that one. There are other examples, but you get the idea...
Anyway, things deteriorated over the years since the girls were born - I moved away slowly - we first moved to a house near his in the same rural community, but began going outside that community for things for the girls (the rural paradise had few children my girls' age, and a strong deep prejudice towards "outsiders" as it turned out) - I tried to make a "good divorce", including him, welcoming him into our house, the girls could go back and forth at will (although they often chose NOT to go to his house much) and they would go on trips with him - we even still went on trips together as a family for those 2 years.
Eventually, it just wasn't working and the girls and I moved back into town - and he succumbed to pressure from other family members about the girls "doing nothing" and that not going to high school would ruin their lives. We grow more and more distant and the girls go to his place less and less - another weirdness is that he now has a female housemate, half his age, that is a total control freak and gives the girls a hard time about all kinds of things when they go over there, so they no longer feel that it is their house too.
Anyway, not very encouraging, I know, sorry. I have also lost the support of my family of origin, who don't live near us, and after reading some of the recent posts about the sorts of things others go through with family, I am, for the first time, glad of that.
The upshot is that I now realize that I am on my own - and it hurt *a lot* at first, still does some, but not as much as it did, because it is also empowering - I am the youngest in my family, so I have always been a bit of a pleaser and my husband is also pretty domineering - so for the first time in my life really I am actually in charge of my life - and I feel more like a partner to my girls than the one in charge, due to the unschooling philosophy.
They still go through times when they want to try and please their dad and maybe go back to school, but when the theory turns into reality, they have so far always balked. They are still going on trips with him, but that's about the only thing left....

----- Original Message -----
From: Marie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:26 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: balance & marriage


My question would be what to do when your spouse clearly has issues
that are contributing to an unhealthy atmosphere. I still find that
my biggest hurdle is balancing my husband's needs. He supports
unschooling for education sake but straddles the parenting philosophy
with great reluctance. He's inconsistent and often times unloads
tantrums of his own, shouting "If they were in school they'd be in
bed!". I think I can see now this happens when his needs are not
being met but he is also not as child-centered as I thought he would
be. I worry that this is going to be the undoing of our 18 year
marriage. It isn't what I had in mind at all and I am beginning to
obsess about raising a dysfunctional family.

For example, after a long and labor intensive day, my husband's day
ends after dinner and in bed unwinding with TV. He misses the days
when his children would cuddle around him but they are now 11 and 8
off doing other things. At 8:00 p.m. they are not thinking about
bed. They want to read, watch their own TV. programs, play a game,
etc. They want me to join them and I do. I like to put my daughter
to bed and read to her then spend some time unraveling the day with
my son. By the time all this is said and done it is 10:30 and DH has
fallen asleep often ticked off.

Sadly, he can't sit still. Always working or working on the house.
The kids just want to enjoy time with him. He can't. He won't. I
think he would like to but he can't sit still long enough to engage
with the kids. Doesn't want to play, doesn't enjoy playing. I could
just cry rivers for my son who just wants his bad to play catch with
him. He won't even let me catch with him now because it just
emphasize more the point that his Dad doesn't want to. I've tried to
explain that there are days when I don't want to play either but it
brings me closer to them when I can let go.

I can already see that DH has missed that window of opportunity to
connect with the children. He's the ogre to all of us some days and
they just don't want any part of it. I can't blame them. They are
gun shy so to speak. It's not all doom and gloom but I know that
it's those scary moments we hold onto in our memory often diminish
the good times. At the same time, he loves his children so much.
Our 11 DS still sleeps with us and he loves that he's right there
beside him recalling that he never had that growing up. His parents
were very controlling and raised kids to be seen and not heard. For
him, it has been a huge leap of faith to allow his children more
freedom than he ever had. He's doing his best, but sometimes it's
hard to feel that his best is good enough. Soothing the hurt and
saying, "..but your Dad loves you so much" isn't much to go on
anymore.

Advice?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Void

Hey Faith - I think what you need is practice in finding solutions.
> Sounds like you know that you didn't get a lot of practice in
> consensus-building when you were growing up. Try thinking of more
> options before deciding on a course of action.

an understatement {g) We have been and will continue to work towards
more effective consensus-builing. I *know* it works (when we do it)

>
> For example, you said you had to put the baby down for a nap. Try to
> think of some other options. Maybe push the baby in a stroller so he/
> she can nap while you walk. Carry the baby in a sling. Delay the
> baby's nap. Carry baby in a backpack. Instead of a walk, play a game
> together while the baby is napping. Instead of walking now, walk later
> in the evening when it cools off.

?That was part of the problem, I lost my sling (I am quite
disorganized since we moved). I am am looking for another carrier, as
I am a huge fan of babywearing. Unfortunately right now we have no
income (arg) but that is another story. And also a huge source of
stress that makes other issues harder to deal with right now.
>
> This lifestyle really does require far more flexibility and creative
> thinking than conventional parenting. Most of us had to learn to do it.

I agree. I feel like I am generally pretty good at this. But
occasionally I screw up. I love this list because I can talk about how
I screwed up and get good help instead of "welll if you just did xyz
then everything would be great." You guys help me remeber what I know
and stretch myself further rather than succumbing to the pressure of
mainstream parenting.
>
> With young children, ALL plans are contingent on their state of
> "being." A really good way to avoid frustration is to be clear in your
> own head about that. When you start thinking, "We'll go for a walk,
> the whole family, that will be so sweet," then stop yourself and
> think, "If it works out, maybe we'll ....".

I am trying to get there. I probably need to make myself a card.
>
> Your "need" that is really not being met, by the way, is a need to
> control. You might want to think about that a bit and see if it is
> really what you want or whether it might not be nicer for you, too, if
> you let go of that.

Thanks, that's the kick I needed. When my life is feeling (to me) out
of control and I am really stressed I just want to control everything.
And it doesn't even make me feel any better. Any good suggestion,
guidance towards letting go of control, especially when stressed.
I usually write but rarely have space right now. although I did
finally get internet service (broadband) and I can update my blog more
regularly. I am thinking this will work. When I take photographs of my
kids I can distance myself from them without being disconnected. I can
step back and really see them as they are. I love this. Also when I
take the time to write about our day or them I feel more intune with
them and the going ons of our lives.

Faith



--
www.bearthmama.com

rebecca de

 


Hello ,  
He's doing his best, but sometimes it's

hard to feel that his best is good enough.

Advice?


Oh geez  I forgot your name.... anyway You stated above that you felt like your husband best is  good enough.   Truthfully don't you  feel that way all  feel that way at times?   If just somehow you can take the judgment out and just accept him for who he is  than maybe he will seem like he is "doing his best."  
  I say this from some open wounds myself right now.  It  isn't with a dh but from judgment from my mother.  I feel that I am doing my best and that there is times I know my best is not good enough -- matter of fact down right lousy....But at that moment it is my best.  Does that make sense?  Let me give an example.  I am a single parent and at times that even though I'm throwing house work and stuff out the window  and spending time with the boys my mentality isn't always in  it -- I'm snappy, controlling, 'angry', etc.  Soo even though i'm trying to do my best at the time, it isn't  enough -- right?? 
My mom knows of these pitfalls and even though she loves me and have my kids best interest in mind-- she likes to tell me how wrong I am or that I shouldn't swear (which I realize by the way with out being reminded) etc.  Now her judgment and words do not help me they make me feel worse and in turn  there is times that it puts me right back into those not so great modes. 

Am I making any sense?  I'm just trying to say that I'm sure your husband is aware of his downfalls and he may just need you to continue just being you and playing with the kids, staying up with them, etc.  Even if he is sore at you for "leaving" him out at night -- at the same time deep down , I'm thinking he knows it is right!!  smiles to you and keep doing your thing and in time he will seem more what you would like him to be !! 
My thoughts for what there worth -- especially since i don't have a dh> becca
.

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bekki Kirby

Wow. I feel like I could have written these posts. My husband never
really helped with the kids' basic needs when they were tiny and now
he's definitely the "ogre" of the family. Generally things run just
"fine" but then I read/hear about other families and wish we could be
more loving.

I don't have anything else to add... I'm just floored to read others'
similar stories. And wondering how to make it work.

Bekki (dd 9 and ds 3)

Kim Zerbe

Sylvia said:
Not only a huge leap of faith, but I found resentment and anger welling up
in me. How could it be that no one who was supposed to love me ever saw how
much I hurt? If I can see and know a better way, why did no one do that for
me? Yeah I want to give my kids the very best I have to offer, but first I
needed to make some amends with the little girl who felt so cheated, so
deeply unloved. I read somewhere years ago that it's virtually impossible to
give what we don't know. That doesn't mean we can't find a way to give it to
our kids -- it means that sometimes we first need to give it to ourselves
since no one else did.
=================


Oh holy cow Sylvia!!! I feel the SAME WAY!!! It hurts so much to wonder why
my mom had to treat me so badly growing up. Part of me knows that she was
raised the same way, her mother was very cold and controlling. But another
part of me sees what was wrong and is determined to raise my child another
way. I get angry that she could have done the same thing, not just do what
was done to you because that's the way life is, but question and do it
better. You can't get revenge on your mother by treating your own kids as
badly as you were treated! Where is the logic in that?!

So I don't talk to my mom now but I don't miss it. I've never called her
when I needed advice or help or anything (like my sister does), but I don't
even call on her birthday or Mother's Day any more. I just can't take what
she dishes out and am MUCH happier living without it. Her love (she has a
funny way of showing it anyhow) comes with strings and I finally just cut
them. I tried for years to talk to her about things that happened in my
childhood. I was looking for answers and maybe some closure. She just wanted
to sweep it all under the rug and start fresh from that day forward. I just
couldn't move on because she would not even acknowledge things that had
happened and even tried to convince me some of them did not happen! Finally
I realized she had nothing for me and I had to accept that and move on, only
it was hard to move on with her still calling me and trying to stay
connected. She just wants to keep some of that control and be able to get
her little digs in here and there. It's so unhealthy, I just can't allow it
anymore.

Anyway, I just wanted to relate to what you said about talking with your
inner child and letting her know that she is OK. I need to do that. This
little girl who was me is still hurting and I don't know how to make it all
right. But I am more determined than ever to give to my son what I really
didn't have! I think by giving it to him, I am also giving a little of that
to my inner child as well. Maybe there is some healing going on.

You know, part of this lifestyle is unschooling ourselves and our partner
too. I'm thinking about the person who started this topic or moved it to
include marriage, you have to keep the same attitude with your spouse you
have with your kids! What does HE need that he is not getting? Ask him. If
he was fine with the way things were, he wouldn't be the ogre. Try to find
ways to include him on things. Can you meet him for lunch during the day?
Maybe get involved in what he likes to do. Can everyone help out with
projects he's got going around the house? Could you bring him a beer while
he's working?! Maybe the kids could read jokes to him while he's working.
What about planning a fun family trip? What's his idea of a good time?

I don't know. I feel gaps too sometimes. I'm trying so hard to be the parent
I never had, I'm not the best spouse to have! Life changed dramatically when
we had a baby. We are not as close as we had been for 14 yrs, it's like a
wedge is between us (DS sleeps right between us!). I am also searching for
the elusive Balance. I haven't achieved it yet but keep working on it. I
have to remember to unschool my hubby more!!! When his cup is filled, he's
more fun to be with! Same for all of us.

Thanks for the topic!

Kim

Sylvia Toyama

Oh holy cow Sylvia!!! I feel the SAME WAY!!! It hurts so much to wonder
why my mom had to treat me so badly growing up. Part of me knows that
she was raised the same way, her mother was very cold and controlling.

*****
A friend recently shared what a therapist told her. Basically, your
Mom did what was done to her, and likely every mother in her family
back to who knows when did the same things -- and added a few new
twists.

When my Mom did the things to us, she was just carrying baggage someone
else packed probably a hundred years ago. We can refuse to carry that
bag anytime we want.

Sylvia

mary

--- In [email protected], "Sylvia Toyama"
<sylgt04@...> wrote:

> When my Mom did the things to us, she was just carrying baggage someone
> else packed probably a hundred years ago. We can refuse to carry that
> bag anytime we want.
>

This could make for excellent visualization. Just close one's eyes,
see the bag, pack it and put it on a plane. It will end up in that
place where all the lost luggage goes and it will never be seen from
again. And if it does "show up again"(which it probably will over and
over again) just start over and ship it back out again.

And one could start packing a new bag with good stuff. Maybe we could
all list one of the good things to go in the new parenting bag so when
we send it on with our kids it will be happy and joyous stuff.

I'll start with trusting my children's choices...

mary

JRossedd

This just made me smile and then I thought, maybe if you help make HIM
smile, at the time, in the moment?
". . . unloads tantrums of his own, shouting "If they were in school
they'd be in bed!"

Like a Yogi Berra-ism. I remember something similarly mangled from the
movie "Tthe American President": if Eisenhower were here right now, he'd
be dead!

We're older (well, pretty OLD by now) parents and we can hardly get a
good mad going around here anymore because someone will burst out
laughing at something or other, however lame, and then we all start. If
I ever had to give an account of our family's unschooling success in
teaching important things, probably that would be near the top. :)

Back to my lurking, Old JJ

Debra Rossing

> And one could start packing a new bag with good stuff
That's really important - if you throw out (pack up) all the old stuff
but don't fill the space with new stuff, that old stuff has someplace to
come back to that's all neat and tidy and empty - and it might even
bring more old baggage along with it (guilt for having dumped the
baggage in the first place, fear that someone might 'find out' about
dumping it, and so on).

Deb


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvia Toyama <sylgt04@...>

A friend recently shared what a therapist told her. Basically, your
Mom did what was done to her, and likely every mother in her family
back to who knows when did the same things -- and added a few new
twists.

When my Mom did the things to us, she was just carrying baggage someone
else packed probably a hundred years ago. We can refuse to carry that
bag anytime we want.

-=-=-=-

And I like what Maisha wrote a few months ago (paraphrased):

We all give our children baggage. I just want to give my children one
carry-on instead of a full set of Samsonite! <G>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org