stefanie stringfellow

I am American Indian and have noticed in many tribal communities that children aren't "potty trained". In Alaska 3-6 years is common. And its not a big deal. Children go themselves. Personally I think potty training is parent training.

I encourage my three year old to go potty. I guess it's bribery but I keep m&m's on hand and he and anyone who gets him to sit on the potty gets some. That's about it. He now often poops and pees on the potty, but not always. It really isn't a big deal. He chooses to go or not go. It's not a big deal. He's my youngest.

My four year old daughter is adopted and has some attachment difficulty. She isn't potty dry. My other boys trained at 4,4 and 5.
My girls stopped wearing diapers at 2 and 3 years. I offered beautiful panties of their choice for when they were out of diapers.

Blessings,
Stefanie in AK
Mom to 7


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bkind28

My son would go potty at daycare but not for me. I never pushed it. Just after 3 he told me in Dillard's he had to potty, I ran like a lunitic with him under my arm like a football. He had accidents until at least 6 though because he never liked to stop playing. The doctor told my mom 35 years ago that you don't train a child, they train you.


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Meredith

>> I offered beautiful panties of their choice for when they were out of diapers.
************

When Mo was first moving beyond diapers we discovered she couldn't sleep in panties without peeing. If she slept with a bare bottom, she would be dry. If she wore a diaper to bed, she would pee. So somehow she could tell the difference between being bare and having something on her bottom - asleep or half asleep - but not the difference between a diaper and panties.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 13, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Meredith wrote:

> If she slept with a bare bottom, she would be dry.

And Kat did the same awake. When she was learning she didn't want the diaper on. She could feel when she needed to go if her bottom was bare.

I wish I'd known about Elimination Communication when she was born. Diapers probably get in the way of a lot of kids figuring out the toilet.

Joyce

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Claire Mesa

I have a completely different experience with potty training children. I
have 4 boys and all of them except the youngest were potty trained by 18
months and the youngest was potty trained a little bit after 2 and he was
only a bit more challenging because he went to preschool and I was working.
I also took care of other people's children and I still do and back when my
children were young like that I had great success with potty training by
about 18 months except when the parents didn't get involved. None of them
were ever not ready or not excited to do it. At that age I found that they
were always happy and proud to do anything they were capable of that was
more grown-up. It is important for them to see mommy and daddy go to the
bathroom and other siblings if possible really helps. I didn't even have to
potty train my 3rd son he saw my 2nd son get on the toilet with a special
seat on it and just copied him, he never used a regular potty like I would
usually start with. I never used pull ups, just regular training pants,
underwear, as little clothing as possible at first--in fact no pants around
the house worked best at first.

I would just let them sit on the potty and read a book to them at first so
they would eventually pee and then I would make a very big deal out it as a
great accomplishment, there was never anything wrong said about mistakes.
For a couple of them I gave something like a couple M&Ms each time too.
They learned real quick and they were happy to learn it, it was not any
kind of pushing a child not ready. It was a very normal age to do it at
the time but I found it a very easy age.

I also found the trick to not peeing at night is not to put a diaper on
very early in the game and just put something there to protect the bed. I
would do this as soon as the child knew how to use a potty and was doing it
regularly and rarely were there pee accidents at night.

I know everyone is different but my personal experience is that the younger
babes, mine or other people's were always happy and willing----so maybe
give it a try if your kids are still younger.

There are terrible people who abuse young children for not going potty and
perhaps that's why it became encouraged to do it older, that and maybe it
makes more money for Pull-ups, lol.



Claire


On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> >> I offered beautiful panties of their choice for when they were out of
> diapers.
> ************
>
> When Mo was first moving beyond diapers we discovered she couldn't sleep
> in panties without peeing. If she slept with a bare bottom, she would be
> dry. If she wore a diaper to bed, she would pee. So somehow she could tell
> the difference between being bare and having something on her bottom -
> asleep or half asleep - but not the difference between a diaper and
> panties.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

> I would just let them sit on the potty and read a book to them at first so
> they would eventually pee

A potty seat in front of the tv can help work too - but it totally depends on having a child who's willing to sit (bare bottomed) on the potty seat for that long. When Mo was a toddler, I called her "my 90mph kid" - she was on the go any time she wasn't asleep. I didn't get much of anything done for a couple years.

> I have a completely different experience with potty training children.

Unschooling isn't really about training children. It begins with the premise that learning is natural and individual; that people, even children, learn what's important and interesting to them when they are ready to do so. With children "ready" is tied in part to biology and in part to temperament - not just for toileting but for any kind of learning. That's why it's really important for parents to know that it's Okay if a child Isn't toileting independently by a particular age. It's not the fault of the mom for failing to "do it right" - kids grow and develop differently and can have very different needs.

>I would make a very big deal out it as a
> great accomplishment

Reward systems are sometimes helpful for a short time If your goal is to teach a person something specific. Unfortunately, unless a person is asking specifically to be taught, teaching gets in the way of learning. If your goal is to support the people you love as they explore the world, lessons and rewards won't help.

>>It was a very normal age to do it at
> the time but I found it a very easy age.

For some it will be - some kids actually do learn to use the toilet mostly independently by 2. But there's no need to make that a goal unless you plan to put your kids in day care or preschool - and even then there will be some natural "failures" because some kids won't be ready for a few more years.

---Meredith

Katerina Koleva

I learned about Elimination Communication when my older child was
one. Practiced it part-time and by 18 months he was out of nappies. When I
say practiced it I mean I left him with cotton underwear or without
anything for a few hours a day so he can get aware of his bodily functions,
see the wet pool on the floor etc.
According to EC kids learn that they need to pee and soil in the nappies
first and then we try to teach/train them about the toilet afterwords.



2012/12/14 Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>

> **
>
>
> > I would just let them sit on the potty and read a book to them at first
> so
> > they would eventually pee
>
> A potty seat in front of the tv can help work too - but it totally depends
> on having a child who's willing to sit (bare bottomed) on the potty seat
> for that long. When Mo was a toddler, I called her "my 90mph kid" - she was
> on the go any time she wasn't asleep. I didn't get much of anything done
> for a couple years.
>
> > I have a completely different experience with potty training children.
>
> Unschooling isn't really about training children. It begins with the
> premise that learning is natural and individual; that people, even
> children, learn what's important and interesting to them when they are
> ready to do so. With children "ready" is tied in part to biology and in
> part to temperament - not just for toileting but for any kind of learning.
> That's why it's really important for parents to know that it's Okay if a
> child Isn't toileting independently by a particular age. It's not the fault
> of the mom for failing to "do it right" - kids grow and develop differently
> and can have very different needs.
>
> >I would make a very big deal out it as a
> > great accomplishment
>
> Reward systems are sometimes helpful for a short time If your goal is to
> teach a person something specific. Unfortunately, unless a person is asking
> specifically to be taught, teaching gets in the way of learning. If your
> goal is to support the people you love as they explore the world, lessons
> and rewards won't help.
>
> >>It was a very normal age to do it at
> > the time but I found it a very easy age.
>
> For some it will be - some kids actually do learn to use the toilet mostly
> independently by 2. But there's no need to make that a goal unless you plan
> to put your kids in day care or preschool - and even then there will be
> some natural "failures" because some kids won't be ready for a few more
> years.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>


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Meredith

Katerina Koleva <katerina.kolevablisss@...> wrote:
>
> I learned about Elimination Communication when my older child was
> one. Practiced it part-time and by 18 months he was out of nappies.

EC - Elimination Communication, works essentially along the same lines as unschooling. It's not a potty Training method any more than unschooling is an educational method, it's a set of principles which can help parents communicate more effectively with infants and toddlers. It doesn't guarantee you'll never use a diaper (or never a disposable diaper) or that children will potty train early - and anything before 2yrs is early! It's actually not uncommon for EC kids to be able to use the potty early, but want to be in diapers when they get to that super-mobile stage between 2 and 4 - it's just so much easier for them to forget the whole business for awhile, while the whole rest of the world is so much more exciting.

Just like any good set of principles (unschooling principles, NVC principles, pick your favorites) the biggest catch is that it's easy to get stuck using those principles as rules. The important part about EC is the "communication" part - and communication begins with looking and listening and striving to see things from another person's perspective. Parents often forget that and try to get Kids to do the looking, listening and striving rather than doing those things themselves.

Kids grow so fast - mine are 11 and 19, so potty issues are long past in my home. But communication is something we still work on. I still remind myself to slow down and listen to what my kids have to say, sometimes, rather than jumping right into what I want. I still remind myself to step back when I'm frustrated and really look at them, what they're trying to tell me with their words and actions, and not jump to conclusions based in my own needs and baggage. How you communicate with your kids over toileting issues isn't practice for communication later, it's part of your relationship with your kids now - a relationship which will grow and change based on the choices you make.

---Meredith

Claire Mesa

Perhaps I should rephrase some things as I can see of it seems to make the
wrong point.

It's not meant to say that you have to have a goal of a certain age. It
is also not meant to point out to someone who has an older child that they
made some kind of mistake or to offer advice to her to start younger as
that would be silly.

Some of what I did would be helpful at any age and btw what I was saying
about sitting on the potty by the TV or while reading them a story was only
a way to help them understand what they were trying to do or give them
their first experience actually going in the potty and I only did it for
short periods.

My point was this, that perhaps many kids will learn it more easily and
willingly at a younger age. I found it it to be the natural age in most
cases for wanting to learn. And really what I did was help them. Babies
learn a lot by mimicking. One of my son's saw my other son go potty so
often, he just started doing it. That's not always a possibility but that's
why they should see their parents or someone often enough and they need to
do it in a potty or a special seat so they need to be shown that.

I did give some M&M's but the main thing in making a big deal is to place
positive value and attention on it--just letting them know they did a good
job. I placed no attention on mistakes.

No one should get serious or worried about it at any age as that won't help.

There is no absolute need I agree--I just found it to work and I found the
kids were very happy to learn at that age, I think they themselves prefer
that most of the time if they have been introduced to the idea.

I thought some people may not realize it could be done early on and that it
might be easier and more natural.

I remember I learned to tie my shoes and dress myself and my mother
continued to do it for me and I just decided it was easier to let her do
it. That kind of thing happens sometimes too.

Sometimes children at a young age try to help their parents around the
house and they don't let them and then they try to get them to do it when
their older and by that time they have become complacent about not helping.

They want a job sometimes when they are too young and can't get one and
then give up on the idea when old enough.

So my only point is sometimes a child wants to do something at a younger
age or is more interested and it's good to keep ones eyes open to that or
give them some help so they know what it's about.

But there are other toilet issues that can come up when a child is older.
One of my children when he was 4 became very frightened of using public
toilets or toilets at schools because of a fan breaking in the bathroom and
making a loud noise and something he saw on TV. We helped him with
solutions that made him less afraid etc...

If a child is nervous with his clothes off, perhaps getting him used to
wearing a little less little by little would help and let him talk about it
without probing too much--he may have seen something that frightened him.
It's hard to show someone how to use a potty over fears and such. I would
personally help him slowly get over some of his fears first and having
stories about the potty are great and experiencing others doing it in some
way and anything that helps him feel more friendly toward potties or having
less clothes o or whatever makes the child nervous.

Meredith

Claire Mesa <roselady4@...> wrote:
>what I was saying
> about sitting on the potty by the TV or while reading them a story was only
> a way to help them understand what they were trying to do

In terms of supporting kids as they learn about the world, it can be helpful to think about phrases like "help them understand". Is the child asking a question or otherwise Seeking to understand? If so, then it makes sense to help them out, the way you might help a friend who was lacking some particular information or skills. For instance, if a friend of mine wanted to learn how to knit, I might come and sit with her while she tries so that I'm on hand to answer questions and help her understand the process and principles.

> My point was this, that perhaps many kids will learn it more easily and
> willingly at a younger age.

Sitting a child down on a potty chair until they perform - at any age - is a lesson, pure and simple. It doesn't start with seeing what a child wants to do, it starts with an adult who wants to teach. And kids learn perfectly well Without being taught - that's the important thing in terms of unschooling. Learning doesn't require teaching. Without lessons, but with support and information, kids still learn to use the toilet independently. Some even do it "early" - because that's when the subject is interesting to them.

> Sometimes children at a young age try to help their parents around the
> house and they don't let them and then they try to get them to do it when
> their older and by that time they have become complacent about not helping.

I would say "discouraged" rather than "complacent" but otherwise that's a good point. Unschooling isn't about doing everything for children all the time, it's about seeing what kids want to learn and being their friend and helper in their endeavors.

A lot of children are thrilled to learn to do some basic cleaning and household tasks as toddlers - it's exciting to them, and allows them to feel wise and capable and powerful in their own realm... if they are choosing to it and are supported in that choice. But it is also true that household tasks lose their excitement in just a few years - it's not exactly rocket science, and kids go on to want to learn more interesting things, no longer the willing housekeeping buddies they were as toddlers. That's A Good Thing! It's Wonderful that they're so busy learning about the world they haven't a moment to help around the house. And if you look at what kids do and see their perspectives, you can see that they are still naturally thoughtful and helpful, it just doesn't look like a three year old wiping down the counters any more - it looks like a five year old making mom her very own mud pie, or a seven year old writing her a story, or a ten year old feeding the cat and leaving cat-food all across the counter in the process.

Eventually, without lessons or chores - they'll develop the perspective which allows them to be generous in ways which are thoughtful from an adult viewpoint - usually around adolescence, if they're surrounded with grace and generosity and appreciation for the things they do.

>> It's hard to show someone how to use a potty over fears and such.

Fortunately, you don't have to. There are other ways to learn than by direct instruction and kids are masters of knowing how to learn in their own ways.

---Meredith

Katerina Koleva

"Anything before 2 is early".
That is the assumption I am talking about.
Many kids can be ready before they turn two. Communication is important and
so is partership,isn't it? If a kid is never left without a diaper until he
is 3,4,5 it would be harder for him to use the toilet compared with a
situation when Mum show him there IS another option. Providing a choice.

Meredith

Since there has been some confusion on the subject of "Elimination Communication" I'm posting the link to a website devoted to the topic and people can take specific questions there. I haven't looked it over very hard and am not responsible for the content etc etc:
http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/?&MMN_position=1:1

Here's a quote from their home page:

<<Elimination Communication (EC) is NOT potty training. It is a gentle, natural, non-coercive process by which a baby, preferably beginning in early infancy, learns with the loving assistance of parents and caregivers to communicate about and address his or her elimination needs. This practice makes conventional potty training unnecessary.

Parents and caregivers who practice EC are often surprised by just how quickly they begin to experience clear and consistent communication with their infant; next to this, early potty independence is seen only as a frequently-occurring side benefit.>>

Meredith

Katerina Koleva <katerina.kolevablisss@...> wrote:
>
> "Anything before 2 is early".
> That is the assumption I am talking about.
> Many kids can be ready before they turn two.

Ah! this is a common point of confusion among parents, one promulgated by educational theorists going back to Maria Montessori. "Readiness" is a very important consideration in teaching, but only one factor in terms of actual learning, and really only a factor in terms of its absence if you see what I mean. If a child isn't ready, he or she *can't* learn something. But the fact that a person is "ready" doesn't mean it's time to learn, it just means learning is now within the realm of comfortable possibility.

Toddlers are busy people, busy learning about the world. There's no real need for a busy, engaged toddler to learn to use the toilet if it's not something he or she wants to do. It Is true that many toddlers are fascinated with their bodies, curious about what comes out of them, and thrilled to find they have some control over the process. I remember my daughter happily stopping and starting her pee at will. The weather was warm so I moved her out onto the porch so she could play with this exciting new maneuver to her heart's content without me fretting over the carpets and furniture, and it didn't take more than a couple repetitions before she would dash outside the moment she wanted to pee. In the fall, when it got cold, she was happy to switch to the potty. I don't recall how old she was... 2ish. Her birthday is in August and she started... oh, in the spring I suppose, so before she was actually 2. That's how important the numbers are - almost ten years later I've forgotten them.

But none of that came from any expectation on my part. Like many toddlers, she liked to be naked during the day. From an unschooling perspective, the important thing was I was sensitive to her interests and preferences. By being sensitive to her interests and preferences, I created an environment which supported her in her endeavors, even when they were a bit odd by some standards. Had she resisted being moved when peeing, I would have found some other solution - put down cloths or a bowl or something, I suppose. And eventually, she still would have learned to use the toilet because it's something the people around her were doing.

It does help to let kids into the bathroom while people are using it and provide information of the kind they like, but what kind of information will depend on the child. Potty books, potty games, potty songs, little potties, inserts, step-stools - all of those are kinds of information.

>If a kid is never left without a diaper until he
> is 3,4,5 it would be harder for him to use the toilet compared with a
> situation when Mum show him there IS another option.

It's not an option if a child doesn't like to be bare - and some kids abhor being bare, strange as that may seem if you have an easygoing nudist in your home ;) And yet those kids can and do still learn to use a toilet without lessons, using the other information and resources parents place at their disposal.

I think it can be helpful to reassure parents who come from a more... straightlaced? background that it's totally okay to let kids run around the house bare-bottomed if they want to (maybe not outside, depends, but inside, sure). That's a good, helpful idea to spread around. But there's no need to tie it to anything in particular. It doesn't hurt anything, doesn't ruin the kids - and really doesn't ruin the furniture if you're thoughtful and sensible and engaged and take some precautions. The important thing - the really, really important thing - is not to make using the toilet an Issue. It's just one of the many many Many things little kids are busy learning. It's okay if they do it a little later - they're still learning other wonderful things, I promise ;)

---Meredith