Momma

My name is Aubrey and I have 3 kiddos-16 year old son, 13 year old daughter, and a 4 year old daughter. I haven’t posted in a long time but I’ve been a member of this group for many years. We have unschooled for most of my kids lives and I would say I have a great relationship with them. Recently we’ve run into some problems and I’m hoping to get some advice from you all.
My son got his drivers permit this year and we are working on getting his license. We are doing parent taught drivers ed for several reasons-one being we live in a very rural area where private drivers ed is not an option. I think a lot of the kids around here do drivers ed through the school but my son did not want to go that route. So here we are. Since we first started doing this we have had issues. If I try to tell him anything he gets angry and tells me to shut up and let him drive. For example, yesterday it was raining and foggy. We we’re driving into town to do our shopping and have lunch. The speed limit on the road we were on was 60 and he was doing about 73 on the straightaway. I asked him to please slow down and that it wasn’t safe to drive at that speed in these conditions. He got angry with me and told me that I was being a tight a**. He drives with his knees, texts while driving, changes lanes recklessly, speeds, follows too closely, etc. He says he already knows how to drive and it pisses him off when I start telling him what to do. Yesterday he brought it up after we got home. He told me that I needed to back off about his driving. I told him that it was a safety issue and that the fact was that he was not driving safety. I told him that I am worried when he drives carelessly, for him and other drivers on the road with him. He said that he’ll drive the way he wants and got downright nasty with me, telling me that I can’t MAKE him do sh*t so get over it. I’m supposed to sign off on him next month for him to get his license and I just don’t know what to do about this. We have never had issues like this. I have never seen this side of him and I’m confused about how to handle this. I don’t want our relationship to be damaged by this. He is my best friend and I love being with him but right now I feel very hurt. The only thing I do know is that I will not be responsible for putting a bad driver on the road with other people.
Please help.
Aubrey

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jorie Denny

Hi Aubrey, (we have a baby Aubrey in our family tree) :)

Wow, you have quite a dilemma on your hands. This must be really difficult.
I don't have teens yet so I am really interested in what other Moms who do
have to say on this issue. I just wanted to offer my .02. When it comes to
a serious health and/or safety issue, I am not willing to negotiate. I
think my choice might be to not sign off and offer empathy and
understanding when that decision is likely met with anger and hostility. I
realize with teenagers this may prove more difficult than with the younger
kids but it's what comes to mind for me. I would remain calm yet firm on
the issue. Let him know how you feel through "I messages". Like you said,
I would have to consider his safety and the safety of others on the road. I
would also like to offer that, as you probably know, he is acting fairly
developmentally appropriate for his age. Expressing his need for autonomy
and freedom. Individuating from his parents. Have faith that he will be
your loving son/best friend again some day.

Now, in the interest of creative problem solving, have you been the only
person offering driving advice? Does your husband/partner also help with
the driver's ed? Do you know anyone in your town who might be willing to
offer driving lessons? Is there a trusted and/or admired male family
member/friend who would be willing to help? I know sometimes with teen boys
it is helpful for them to relate to the person who is teaching and if they
have admiration for them, all the better. I know my boys tend to respond
differently when an outsider gives direction than when it comes from a
familiar. Does he have an Uncle who might be willing to come to town for a
visit and spend some time dedicated to driving instruction? Also, has your
son seen any of the awareness campaigns about texting while driving? I know
that might be futile but just thought it can't hurt to try, right? I have
seen many PSAs on the dangers of texting while driving which depict real
life teens who had an accident and either hurt themselves or
killed/severely injured another, even stating that their previous
impression was that it would never happen to THEM, they were good at it,
etc. It seems like they really tried hard to appeal to the teen
demographic. There may also be some statistical information about how the
rain affects the road conditions and stopping distance etc, I think these
are things that he would learn if he went to a drivers ed class. Is there
an online drivers ed course he could take? Since he already has his permit,
I guess that means he has already passed the written test and now only
needs to pass the driving test to get his license. If he drives recklessly,
follows too close, speeds, etc while taking that test the DMV will fail
him. But if he is coy and drives the way he knows they want him to to pass,
only to drive however he wants once he's on the road then I guess relying
on them to fail him might not be the best idea. Just throwing them out
there. :)

Most unschoolers I know have already read all the books that deal with
conflict resolution along the lines of democratic parenting/unconditional
parenting but I figure mentioning it can't hurt just in case you haven't.
My three favorites are Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, Raising Our
Children, Raising Ourselves by Naomi Aldort, and my current favorite,
P.E.T. (Parent Effectiveness Training) by Dr. Thomas Gordon, this one
really offers "no lose problem solving". You can take from it what you need
and ignore the bits that don't relate to unschooling.

I know it must be terrifying to think of your beloved son on the road
driving dangerously and I know you don't want to strain the relationship
any further by preventing him from the freedom he so desires. I hope you
can find a solution that works for everyone. Good luck.

Jorie

p.s. I would like to know how this works out once you choose your method of
resolve.



On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 9:32 AM, Momma <southernbelle@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> My name is Aubrey and I have 3 kiddos-16 year old son, 13 year old
> daughter, and a 4 year old daughter. I haven�t posted in a long time but
> I�ve been a member of this group for many years. We have unschooled for
> most of my kids lives and I would say I have a great relationship with
> them. Recently we�ve run into some problems and I�m hoping to get some
> advice from you all.
> My son got his drivers permit this year and we are working on getting his
> license. We are doing parent taught drivers ed for several reasons-one
> being we live in a very rural area where private drivers ed is not an
> option. I think a lot of the kids around here do drivers ed through the
> school but my son did not want to go that route. So here we are. Since we
> first started doing this we have had issues. If I try to tell him anything
> he gets angry and tells me to shut up and let him drive. For example,
> yesterday it was raining and foggy. We we�re driving into town to do our
> shopping and have lunch. The speed limit on the road we were on was 60 and
> he was doing about 73 on the straightaway. I asked him to please slow down
> and that it wasn�t safe to drive at that speed in these conditions. He got
> angry with me and told me that I was being a tight a**. He drives with his
> knees, texts while driving, changes lanes recklessly, speeds, follows too
> closely, etc. He says he already knows how to drive and it pisses him off
> when I start telling him what to do. Yesterday he brought it up after we
> got home. He told me that I needed to back off about his driving. I told
> him that it was a safety issue and that the fact was that he was not
> driving safety. I told him that I am worried when he drives carelessly, for
> him and other drivers on the road with him. He said that he�ll drive the
> way he wants and got downright nasty with me, telling me that I can�t MAKE
> him do sh*t so get over it. I�m supposed to sign off on him next month for
> him to get his license and I just don�t know what to do about this. We have
> never had issues like this. I have never seen this side of him and I�m
> confused about how to handle this. I don�t want our relationship to be
> damaged by this. He is my best friend and I love being with him but right
> now I feel very hurt. The only thing I do know is that I will not be
> responsible for putting a bad driver on the road with other people.
> Please help.
> Aubrey
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lindaguitar

Aubrey,

I would feel hurt too, if one of my kids had treated me that way. I wonder why your son thinks it's ok to drive recklessly and break the law (e.g., speeding, texting while driving, etc), and why he seems so angry at you. What are his attitudes in general towards safety, respecting others, and following the law? What is his attitude towards *you*, in general, when you talk to him about other topics that could be considered to fall into the category of being a responsible citizen? Is he possibly harboring resentment for some other unresolved matter, and it's just coming out as a driving issue?

I think you're doing the right thing NOT to actively put a reckless driver on the road (by signing off for his license). If it were me, I don't think I'd give him any more driving lessons for a while.

Is there any possibility you could find a local police officer who would be willing to give your son some driving lessons, for a reasonable fee? If you could find one, would your son be willing to take lessons with a cop?

Is there any requirement in your state for teens to pass a driving safety course before being allowed to get a license? There is in our state.

Linda

Meredith

"Momma" <southernbelle@...> wrote:
>Since we first started doing this we have had issues. If I try to tell him anything he gets angry and tells me to shut up and let him drive.
**************

Step back a bit and try to see things from his point of view. I'm guessing, from what you've written, that to him his dear friend suddenly turned into a driver's ed teacher! Eeek! No wonder he's grouchy and defiant ;) So listen to what He's saying: stop telling him how to drive. Stop nagging about how he drives. Stop teaching and be his friend again.

But that's not to say you should just throw up your hands and say "whatever dude". Make a deal with him. You'll bite your tongue: period! And if he can stay within the law while driving (at least as much as his parents do!), he can drive your car and you'll sign what you need to sign.

>>I told him that it was a safety issue and that the fact was that he was not driving safety.
************

Ray learned to drive from friends - neither I nor George trusted ourselves to be quiet when he was learning to drive ;) But his friends had a totally different tack than the parental "safety" lectures, and that was to rag on him about the fact that if he got them pulled over by the cops, his friend, as the licensed driver, would get a ticket. I don't think you should rag on your son ;) but it could be helpful to point out the sort of... cheats that experienced drivers use to avoid getting pulled over. Like staying within 10mi of the speed limit and knowing where cops tend to hide, knowing where and when you can do things like text without getting caught. The "safety" thing has become "blahdi blah blah blah" - but notes on "how not to get caught" would likely be appreciated if you can do them casually, maybe when you're not in the car at all - go out to dinner with friends and trade stories, maybe.

If you have friends who are willing, suggest your son drive with someone else for awhile. Nevermind the whole "parent taught driving" thing - I think part of the problem is that phrase got under your skin. Treat your guy like the experienced unschooler he is: how does He learn things? Help him the way you already know works for him, trusting him to learn what he needs in his own way.

>>He said that he’ll drive the way he wants and got downright nasty with me, telling me that I can’t MAKE him do sh*t so get over it.
************

He's right - once you're no longer in the car there isn't a thing you can do other than take the car away from him. So trust him. Make a deal and trust him to keep his end of it. Be prepared to be gracious about mistakes - he's not an Experienced driver, so he's likely to make some. If he's not prone to being a total jackass in general, don't assume he's going to drive like one without you correcting his every move.

Apologize to him for your attitude, maybe talk about your own past and parents and learning to drive and how all that baggage messed with your head. If you're really, really worried that he's an awful driver and you want to wait before signing whatever you need to sign, be apologetic about that, too - you messed up and put pressure on him instead of supporting him.

---Meredith

[email protected]

You definitely have an angry young man there, at least in this situation. Have you had any rules at home for him before he started driving? If not perhaps he just doesn't like being told what to do in this situation. I can only tell you what we told our oldest when we taught her to drive. First driving is a privilege and not a right. As long as we paid for her insurance and it was our car it was our rules.

I would definitely have a police officer talk to him to set him straight and I would never sign off on a drivers license for him as long as he is driving recklessly. Right now with his attitude he is a danger to himself and other drivers on the road.

You're still the parent, and even best friends show each other respect.

Dana


--- In [email protected], "Momma" <southernbelle@...> wrote:
>
> My name is Aubrey and I have 3 kiddos-16 year old son, 13 year old daughter, and a 4 year old daughter. I haven’t posted in a long time but I’ve been a member of this group for many years. We have unschooled for most of my kids lives and I would say I have a great relationship with them. Recently we’ve run into some problems and I’m hoping to get some advice from you all.
> My son got his drivers permit this year and we are working on getting his license. We are doing parent taught drivers ed for several reasons-one being we live in a very rural area where private drivers ed is not an option. I think a lot of the kids around here do drivers ed through the school but my son did not want to go that route. So here we are. Since we first started doing this we have had issues. If I try to tell him anything he gets angry and tells me to shut up and let him drive. For example, yesterday it was raining and foggy. We we’re driving into town to do our shopping and have lunch. The speed limit on the road we were on was 60 and he was doing about 73 on the straightaway. I asked him to please slow down and that it wasn’t safe to drive at that speed in these conditions. He got angry with me and told me that I was being a tight a**. He drives with his knees, texts while driving, changes lanes recklessly, speeds, follows too closely, etc. He says he already knows how to drive and it pisses him off when I start telling him what to do. Yesterday he brought it up after we got home. He told me that I needed to back off about his driving. I told him that it was a safety issue and that the fact was that he was not driving safety. I told him that I am worried when he drives carelessly, for him and other drivers on the road with him. He said that he’ll drive the way he wants and got downright nasty with me, telling me that I can’t MAKE him do sh*t so get over it. I’m supposed to sign off on him next month for him to get his license and I just don’t know what to do about this. We have never had issues like this. I have never seen this side of him and I’m confused about how to handle this. I don’t want our relationship to be damaged by this. He is my best friend and I love being with him but right now I feel very hurt. The only thing I do know is that I will not be responsible for putting a bad driver on the road with other people.
> Please help.
> Aubrey
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 27, 2012, at 12:32 PM, Momma wrote:


> We have unschooled for most of my kids lives and I would say I have a great relationship with them.

It sounds like your son doesn't agree. The belligerence and actions sound like fighting control. It sounds like "Up yours. You can't tell me what to do anymore." It's possible you're controlling your kids in ways that they feel but you can't see. Or it could be he's more sensitive to control.

> We have never had issues like this. I have never seen this side of him
> and I’m confused about how to handle this. I don’t want our relationship
> to be damaged by this. He is my best friend and I love being with him

Have you asked him what's going on? Maybe there's some issue that's really bothering him that's coming out as this anger and fighting for control. Maybe he's worried about the future. Are there difficulties in the family? A looming or recent divorce? A death? (You don't need to answer. Only pointing out that people often act fine after something stressful but their real emotions come out in other ways.)

This might help. It's easier for people to open up when they aren't sitting face to face.

http://sandradodd.com/truck

There are comments linked at the bottom too.

Talking *in* the truck -- or car ;-) -- is good too. But not while he's driving! ;-) Go for a long drive to some place he'd enjoy going to.

> I asked him to please slow down and that it wasn’t safe to drive at that speed in these conditions.

If it's not a choice, don't ask. Tell him.

From what you've written it sounds like you're wrestling for control and he's winning. When it shouldn't be about who gets to control but about your responsibility as the person who oversees his learning to drive. If he can't drive safely -- according to the rules -- then you shouldn't sign the paper that says he is ready.

Don't make it about controlling him but about your responsibility. At this point he'll feel it's about him, but I'm not sure there's a way for him to not feel that if he's felt controlled in the past.

Let him know that your signature on the paper means that *you* feel confident that he can drive safely and within the laws. Your signature isn't about *his* confidence. And that so far you don't feel that confidence.

Don't "worry" that he drives carelessly. Don't feel hurt. There are clear laws and guidelines and it's your responsibility to see that he knows them and can stay within them.

I'm not sure how to explain the dynamic of the interaction if you tend to think in terms of getting him to do something. He's right. You can't make him do anything. So don't try. Make it a choice.

It's a real life IF/THEN situation not some false your rules against his ability to fight them as most parent/child interactions are. IF he can show he can drive within the laws AND you're confident that he's a safe driver, THEN you will sign the paper. He can choose to drive however he wishes. You get to decide if you feel safe enough to get in the car with him. You get to decide when you feel confident enough that you can sign the paper stating that he's a safe driver and knows the laws and is ready to take his driver's test.

It's really as simple as that. It's cut and dried. There are clear rules. There's the clarity of your confidence. Your position is clear. State it clearly and don't engage in emotional manipulation. It's not a situation where your begging him to drive safely should win or his belligerence that he's already a safe driver should win.

I would let him know the signing date is now up in the air. Since he's been driving in ways that don't build *your* confidence that he can drive safely within the laws, he's going to need to show you *a lot* of hours of that before you're confident. Maybe set the date 6 months in the future. Then tell him if you're confident before that, you'll sign sooner BUT he can't ask or pressure you.

Joyce

[email protected]

Thank you for not setting him loose on the rest of us.

I wouldn't let you drive my car if you drove like that and told me to shut up and got angry when I told you to slow down and drive safely. And I wouldn't hand my daughter the car keys if she acted like that. That kind of anger is not appropriate behind the wheel of a car. It can be an emotional thing but this sounds dangerous.

Maybe you need to tell him that this obviously isn't working out and you can't sign off on letting him kill himself or someone else and then the two of you can go find a neutral teacher at a driving school.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Momma" <southernbelle@> wrote:
> >Since we first started doing this we have had issues. If I try to tell him anything he gets angry and tells me to shut up and let him drive.
> **************
>

Meredith

"danagribble@..." <danagribble@...> wrote:
>> You're still the parent, and even best friends show each other respect.
**************

Something I've noticed with Ray is that when people - adults - treat him like a teenager, he "lives down" to their expectations. He gets surly and belligerent and very "in your face" - and honestly I can hardly blame him. Most adults are appallingly rude to teens! (Ray's sensible enough to know Not to pull out the bad-ass teenager show to anyone who is armed - he knows it will get him arrested in an instant if he does it to a cop, for instance.) When people don't know Ray's a teen (and at 19 he's still just barely a teen) they treat him like a competent young man - because he Is a competent young man and it's not hard to see that... when the word "teenager" doesn't get in the way.

> I would definitely have a police officer talk to him to set him straight

"Set him straight" is a good example of the ways adults are obnoxious to teens. By the time a person is sixteen, he's well able to see all his parents flaws, inconsistencies, and peccadilloes and all the ways adults don't live up to their stated philosophies. A lecture on how to be responsible sounds like pure hypocrisy to a teen - and for good reason. At best what he'll "get" from that is that the way to get what he wants is to be the same kind of hypocrite he's seeing in the adults around him: parrot what's "right" in front of mom and Officer Friendly and then drive like an ass once he's legal.

It's possible to be respectful and gracious and still be real - and that's what young adults need, more than anything. They need adults to treat them like real people without trying to teach them lessons and "set them straight". It *is* realistic to say "no, you can't drive my car like that" but not as a lesson or a control tactic. Say it the way you would to a friend or a spouse, and with just as much faith that the other person will listen.

---Meredith

Meredith

Here's a link to one of Sandra's pages about teens and rebellion that includes a driving story:
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion

Sylvia Woodman

"He drives with his knees, texts while driving, changes lanes recklessly,
speeds, follows too closely, etc. He says he already knows how to drive and
it pisses him off when I start telling him what to do. Yesterday he brought
it up after we got home. He told me that I needed to back off about his
driving. "

Where did he learn to drive like this?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

centurykissed

Probably from his friends, which makes me kind of nervous now that I think about it. I know it wasn't from me since he says I drive like a grandma. lol.
Aubrey


--- In [email protected], Sylvia Woodman <sylvia057@...> wrote:
>
> "He drives with his knees, texts while driving, changes lanes recklessly,
> speeds, follows too closely, etc. He says he already knows how to drive and
> it pisses him off when I start telling him what to do. Yesterday he brought
> it up after we got home. He told me that I needed to back off about his
> driving. "
>
> Where did he learn to drive like this?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meredith

> > Where did he learn to drive like this?
> Probably from his friends, which makes me kind of nervous now that I
think about it.

One of the marvelous things about learning - and simultaneously one of
the most unnerving - is that kids learn from a whole wide world full of
sources: friends, random strangers, parents, siblings, tv programs,
songs, books, the internet. There's no way to control how and where
people learning - and that's Wonderful! The world is some much bigger
and more complex than any one person can home to encompass.

This is why living by your principles is so very important; Because we
can't possibly every control how and where our children will learn. What
we can do is give our kids real, gut-level reasons to value some of the
things we find important. That doesn't come from teaching or even
"applying" principles, it only comes from embodying them.

If respect is important to you, then treating a child disrespectfully in
order to teach him or her a lesson undermines that principle. Because
from the child's persepctive the idea of "respect" becomes tied up with
feelings of frustration and resentment. That's true of adults too! and
it's why a good "check" for parents who want to be their kids partners
is to ask "would I say/do this to an adult friend?"


---Meredith