Intro.
Debbie
Hi all,
I'm new to this list and thought I should introduce myself. My name is Debbie, and I have been homeschooling my 13 yo dd for four years now. My younger dd just began homeschooling this year (grade K). Like many other people new to homeschooling, we went with a packaged curriculum the first year. Trouble is, we've been stuck in that rut ever since. It seemed easier at first, having a program laid out for me, telling me what my kids need to do each week, etc., but now I realize that it is making life much more difficult than it needs to be. We have finally reached a point where we are both (my older dd and I, that is) sick to death of this program and ready to learn more about unschooling. Since she will begin high school level next school year, I'm concerned about transcripts and a diploma, for college purposes. How do you get around this? Cafi Cohen's book "Homeschooling:The Teen Years" was recommended to me quite some time ago, and I still haven't checked it out yet - would any of you recommend it? or could you recommend a better book?
My younger daughter is using Oak Meadow's kindergarten curriculum, and it suits her well as there really isn't much to it so we supplement it by learning more about whatever she is interested in at the moment. Today it was the moon. Last week, she had a strong interest in learning about creatures that live in the ocean. In fact, this way of "schooling" is what got me thinking that maybe unschooling would be a good fit for my kids after all. LOL.
My older dd is also using OM materials (8th grade level). The math is very, very good, but the rest of it is just so-so, and our biggest mistake was going with teacher support this year. The OM teacher has been SOOOO strict, and even had the nerve to suggest that my dd's extracurricular activities are "cutting into her OM studies too much"!!! I was outraged - to me, the extracurricular things are not "fluff" but real honest-to-goodness learning opportunies. AND, the only things she goes to during the day is a Spanish class once a week (for one hour), and swimming with her friends at the Y once a week (not lessons, just swimming together for fun). I complained to the OM teacher. Her reply was that she does this with all of her 8th graders to prepare them for the much more difficult/challenging high school years ahead. Hmmmmm.....somehow, discouraging them doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. A little praise would go a looooonnngggggg way, imo.
Anyhow, as you can probably tell, we are ready for a change.
If you have gotten this far, thank you for listening.
Debbie
P.S. Ren, I enjoyed your post very much! thank you.
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Why is unschooling better?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm new to this list and thought I should introduce myself. My name is Debbie, and I have been homeschooling my 13 yo dd for four years now. My younger dd just began homeschooling this year (grade K). Like many other people new to homeschooling, we went with a packaged curriculum the first year. Trouble is, we've been stuck in that rut ever since. It seemed easier at first, having a program laid out for me, telling me what my kids need to do each week, etc., but now I realize that it is making life much more difficult than it needs to be. We have finally reached a point where we are both (my older dd and I, that is) sick to death of this program and ready to learn more about unschooling. Since she will begin high school level next school year, I'm concerned about transcripts and a diploma, for college purposes. How do you get around this? Cafi Cohen's book "Homeschooling:The Teen Years" was recommended to me quite some time ago, and I still haven't checked it out yet - would any of you recommend it? or could you recommend a better book?
My younger daughter is using Oak Meadow's kindergarten curriculum, and it suits her well as there really isn't much to it so we supplement it by learning more about whatever she is interested in at the moment. Today it was the moon. Last week, she had a strong interest in learning about creatures that live in the ocean. In fact, this way of "schooling" is what got me thinking that maybe unschooling would be a good fit for my kids after all. LOL.
My older dd is also using OM materials (8th grade level). The math is very, very good, but the rest of it is just so-so, and our biggest mistake was going with teacher support this year. The OM teacher has been SOOOO strict, and even had the nerve to suggest that my dd's extracurricular activities are "cutting into her OM studies too much"!!! I was outraged - to me, the extracurricular things are not "fluff" but real honest-to-goodness learning opportunies. AND, the only things she goes to during the day is a Spanish class once a week (for one hour), and swimming with her friends at the Y once a week (not lessons, just swimming together for fun). I complained to the OM teacher. Her reply was that she does this with all of her 8th graders to prepare them for the much more difficult/challenging high school years ahead. Hmmmmm.....somehow, discouraging them doesn't seem like such a good idea to me. A little praise would go a looooonnngggggg way, imo.
Anyhow, as you can probably tell, we are ready for a change.
If you have gotten this far, thank you for listening.
Debbie
P.S. Ren, I enjoyed your post very much! thank you.
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Why is unschooling better?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"Since
she will begin high school level next school year, I'm concerned
about
transcripts and a diploma, for college purposes. "
If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
unschooling probably won't work for you.
If allowing your child the ability to truly know herself, to enjoy
every day as much as humanly possible and focus on joy is more
important, then unschooling will be perfect for your family!
Seriously, unschooling isn't about getting ready for college, though
many unschoolers end up choosing that route and enjoy it.
Unschooling is so different from the traditional way of living, even
after adult age.
I don't believe college is the end-all-be-all answer for success. My
dh and I don't have degrees and he is running his own business (has
been for over six years) and I am doing exactly what I love.
Life is short.
Should we focus on "getting educated" so we can follow the college
route, get a career and do all the mind numbing things that most
people think are "necessary"?
Or should we see life as a big 'ol adventure? One in which we can
change our minds, change the way we make our living at any time and
live the life of our DREAMS?!!
Life is an adventure for us.
I'm not a career track person, I am a rennaissance person. I can do
anything, as long as I love it!:)
Right now, dh and I are conceptualizing a new home business, one we
will run together. There are so many options in life, many of which
have nothing to do with college.
Heck, I could give you lists of people that are doing jobs
that "require" a degree...from paleontology, to engineering and
beyond...all without degrees. I can also tell you about unschoolers
that ended up in college and really enjoyed it. But that isn't the
point....
Do what you love, the money will follow. I believe that. And if the
money doesn't follow? At least you love your life.
Ren
she will begin high school level next school year, I'm concerned
about
transcripts and a diploma, for college purposes. "
If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
unschooling probably won't work for you.
If allowing your child the ability to truly know herself, to enjoy
every day as much as humanly possible and focus on joy is more
important, then unschooling will be perfect for your family!
Seriously, unschooling isn't about getting ready for college, though
many unschoolers end up choosing that route and enjoy it.
Unschooling is so different from the traditional way of living, even
after adult age.
I don't believe college is the end-all-be-all answer for success. My
dh and I don't have degrees and he is running his own business (has
been for over six years) and I am doing exactly what I love.
Life is short.
Should we focus on "getting educated" so we can follow the college
route, get a career and do all the mind numbing things that most
people think are "necessary"?
Or should we see life as a big 'ol adventure? One in which we can
change our minds, change the way we make our living at any time and
live the life of our DREAMS?!!
Life is an adventure for us.
I'm not a career track person, I am a rennaissance person. I can do
anything, as long as I love it!:)
Right now, dh and I are conceptualizing a new home business, one we
will run together. There are so many options in life, many of which
have nothing to do with college.
Heck, I could give you lists of people that are doing jobs
that "require" a degree...from paleontology, to engineering and
beyond...all without degrees. I can also tell you about unschoolers
that ended up in college and really enjoyed it. But that isn't the
point....
Do what you love, the money will follow. I believe that. And if the
money doesn't follow? At least you love your life.
Ren
Daniel MacIntyre
your husband is right - here is a little article talking more about
college in general.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north303.html
the most relevent excerpt I see offhand is this:
Instead of going to college full time at 18, a wise student will seek
employment by a company on a part-time basis and take his college work
by examination. His college degree will cost him $12,000 instead of
costing his parents $35,000 to $140,000. He can pay his own way
through school. He can gain his independence at 18.
He will be trained on the job by people who know how to make a buck.
He will have a four-year to six-year head start on his peers. At age
22 or 23, he will have a college degree and work experience that will
impress a would-be employer. He will be in a position to rise in the
existing chain of command because his employer knows he is now a
marketable commodity in the business world. The employer will have to
pay him more money.
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:10:35 -0600, Debbie
<onehundredacrewood@...> wrote:
college in general.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north303.html
the most relevent excerpt I see offhand is this:
Instead of going to college full time at 18, a wise student will seek
employment by a company on a part-time basis and take his college work
by examination. His college degree will cost him $12,000 instead of
costing his parents $35,000 to $140,000. He can pay his own way
through school. He can gain his independence at 18.
He will be trained on the job by people who know how to make a buck.
He will have a four-year to six-year head start on his peers. At age
22 or 23, he will have a college degree and work experience that will
impress a would-be employer. He will be in a position to rise in the
existing chain of command because his employer knows he is now a
marketable commodity in the business world. The employer will have to
pay him more money.
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:10:35 -0600, Debbie
<onehundredacrewood@...> wrote:
>
> If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
> unschooling probably won't work for you.
>
>
> That's not what I wanted to hear! LOL.
> I don't know for sure whether my kids will want to go to college, of course, and dh and I certainly won't be pushing for them to go. Neither of us went (my dh is also self-employed - he's owned a successful small business since he was in his early 20s. I handle the paperwork end of the business). Dh thinks college is a big waste of time and money. He bases that on all of the examples around us - many people (two of my brothers included) who went to college and never got a job in the field they studied, and are still struggling to pay it off years later while holding not-so-great-paying jobs. I tend to agree with dh about that, but I also feel that if my kids decide for whatever reason that they really want to go, they should be able to at least give it a try, and I wouldn't want to have hurt their chances by not documenting anything. Aren't there any unschoolers on this list who are documenting what their chldren learn, just in case they want to apply to colleges some day?
> Debbie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<Seriously, unschooling isn't about getting ready for college, though
many unschoolers end up choosing that route and enjoy it. >>>>
This is so true. I went to college because work was boring. I had little interest in being there and goofed around for 2 years before finding my passion.
My unschooled daughter has been living her passion for years. She has researched colleges, checked out entrance requirements and made a plan. All on her own. She chose to follow a very traditional curriculum because it is an entrance requirement.
But what a difference in working with a kid who truly wants to learn these things, has a goal in mind, chose for herself, than working with a kid who isn't interested.
Julie S.
many unschoolers end up choosing that route and enjoy it. >>>>
This is so true. I went to college because work was boring. I had little interest in being there and goofed around for 2 years before finding my passion.
My unschooled daughter has been living her passion for years. She has researched colleges, checked out entrance requirements and made a plan. All on her own. She chose to follow a very traditional curriculum because it is an entrance requirement.
But what a difference in working with a kid who truly wants to learn these things, has a goal in mind, chose for herself, than working with a kid who isn't interested.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Intro.
"Since
she will begin high school level next school year, I'm concerned
about
transcripts and a diploma, for college purposes. "
If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
unschooling probably won't work for you.
If allowing your child the ability to truly know herself, to enjoy
every day as much as humanly possible and focus on joy is more
important, then unschooling will be perfect for your family!
Seriously, unschooling isn't about getting ready for college, though
many unschoolers end up choosing that route and enjoy it.
Unschooling is so different from the traditional way of living, even
after adult age.
I don't believe college is the end-all-be-all answer for success. My
dh and I don't have degrees and he is running his own business (has
been for over six years) and I am doing exactly what I love.
Life is short.
Should we focus on "getting educated" so we can follow the college
route, get a career and do all the mind numbing things that most
people think are "necessary"?
Or should we see life as a big 'ol adventure? One in which we can
change our minds, change the way we make our living at any time and
live the life of our DREAMS?!!
Life is an adventure for us.
I'm not a career track person, I am a rennaissance person. I can do
anything, as long as I love it!:)
Right now, dh and I are conceptualizing a new home business, one we
will run together. There are so many options in life, many of which
have nothing to do with college.
Heck, I could give you lists of people that are doing jobs
that "require" a degree...from paleontology, to engineering and
beyond...all without degrees. I can also tell you about unschoolers
that ended up in college and really enjoyed it. But that isn't the
point....
Do what you love, the money will follow. I believe that. And if the
money doesn't follow? At least you love your life.
Ren
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
Also, the typical example I hear of homeschoolers going to college is
by taking community college classes at 16 or 17, getting 30 hours
there and then transferring to a university (which requests high
school transcripts for new freshmen, but only college transcripts for
transferring sophomores.
community colleges often allow high school students to enroll with the
permission of the school, which in this case is you.
by taking community college classes at 16 or 17, getting 30 hours
there and then transferring to a university (which requests high
school transcripts for new freshmen, but only college transcripts for
transferring sophomores.
community colleges often allow high school students to enroll with the
permission of the school, which in this case is you.
J. Stauffer
<<< I tend to agree with dh about that, but I also feel that if my kids decide for whatever reason that they really want to go, they should be able to at least give it a try, and I wouldn't want to have hurt their chances by not documenting anything. >>>>
If you want to, keep a scrapbook. One of the easiest ways for unschoolers to attend college is to start at a local community college and then transfer in to whatever university they want to attend.
If your kids express a desire to go to college, worry about it then.
Julie S.
If you want to, keep a scrapbook. One of the easiest ways for unschoolers to attend college is to start at a local community college and then transfer in to whatever university they want to attend.
If your kids express a desire to go to college, worry about it then.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Debbie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 9:10 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Intro.
If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
unschooling probably won't work for you.
That's not what I wanted to hear! LOL.
I don't know for sure whether my kids will want to go to college, of course, and dh and I certainly won't be pushing for them to go. Neither of us went (my dh is also self-employed - he's owned a successful small business since he was in his early 20s. I handle the paperwork end of the business). Dh thinks college is a big waste of time and money. He bases that on all of the examples around us - many people (two of my brothers included) who went to college and never got a job in the field they studied, and are still struggling to pay it off years later while holding not-so-great-paying jobs. I tend to agree with dh about that, but I also feel that if my kids decide for whatever reason that they really want to go, they should be able to at least give it a try, and I wouldn't want to have hurt their chances by not documenting anything. Aren't there any unschoolers on this list who are documenting what their chldren learn, just in case they want to ap Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debbie
If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,
unschooling probably won't work for you.
That's not what I wanted to hear! LOL.
I don't know for sure whether my kids will want to go to college, of course, and dh and I certainly won't be pushing for them to go. Neither of us went (my dh is also self-employed - he's owned a successful small business since he was in his early 20s. I handle the paperwork end of the business). Dh thinks college is a big waste of time and money. He bases that on all of the examples around us - many people (two of my brothers included) who went to college and never got a job in the field they studied, and are still struggling to pay it off years later while holding not-so-great-paying jobs. I tend to agree with dh about that, but I also feel that if my kids decide for whatever reason that they really want to go, they should be able to at least give it a try, and I wouldn't want to have hurt their chances by not documenting anything. Aren't there any unschoolers on this list who are documenting what their chldren learn, just in case they want to apply to colleges some day?
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling probably won't work for you.
That's not what I wanted to hear! LOL.
I don't know for sure whether my kids will want to go to college, of course, and dh and I certainly won't be pushing for them to go. Neither of us went (my dh is also self-employed - he's owned a successful small business since he was in his early 20s. I handle the paperwork end of the business). Dh thinks college is a big waste of time and money. He bases that on all of the examples around us - many people (two of my brothers included) who went to college and never got a job in the field they studied, and are still struggling to pay it off years later while holding not-so-great-paying jobs. I tend to agree with dh about that, but I also feel that if my kids decide for whatever reason that they really want to go, they should be able to at least give it a try, and I wouldn't want to have hurt their chances by not documenting anything. Aren't there any unschoolers on this list who are documenting what their chldren learn, just in case they want to apply to colleges some day?
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
For those of you asking about the college question, here's a link to
Laurie's page. She was raised as a radical unschooler for her whole
life and decided to go on to college.
http://chancey.info/
Her mother, Valerie, wrote a book about raising Laurie (and
respectful parenting in general) titled "The Unprocessed Child".
She's a member at this list, maybe she'll pipe in on the college
discussion. Valerie?
:)
Ren
Laurie's page. She was raised as a radical unschooler for her whole
life and decided to go on to college.
http://chancey.info/
Her mother, Valerie, wrote a book about raising Laurie (and
respectful parenting in general) titled "The Unprocessed Child".
She's a member at this list, maybe she'll pipe in on the college
discussion. Valerie?
:)
Ren
Debbie
Thank you, Daniel. I will definitely have her check into attending community college classes in a few years (she's 13).
Right now, she thinks she might want to attend college to further her art skills. I doubt getting accepted to an art college is as difficult as getting accepted at other types of colleges, so she most likely wouldn't run into too much trouble anyhow.
It's funny - one of my brothers who attended a four-year college, and in later years attended a couple of different community colleges, is the one who gives me the most grief over homeschooling. The subject of college is his main attack method ("are they going to college?" "don't you think homeschooling is going to hurt their chances?" etc.). He was a typical bookworm in high school, and one of his best friends was a teacher who strongly believed that everyone should go on to college. He's in his mid-40s now and has never held a job in the field he studied. He has held a string of low-paying jobs that he doesn't like, sometimes with months and months of unemployment between jobs (while living at my mother's house). Why he doesn't see that college didn't exactly pay off for him, I don't understand. I'm too polite to say this to him, and try to remain calm when he attacks our choice to homeschool. When we saw him just a few weeks ago, he asked if my 5 YEAR OLD is going to go to college! I was surprised by the stupidity of the question, and it was difficult to stop myself from saying "ARE YOU CRAZY? HOW COULD I POSSIBLY KNOW IF A FIVE YEAR OLD IS GOING TO COLLEGE?!" Instead, I politely said "we'll have to wait several years to see if she is interested in going." I think he got the point, as he dropped the subject after that.
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Right now, she thinks she might want to attend college to further her art skills. I doubt getting accepted to an art college is as difficult as getting accepted at other types of colleges, so she most likely wouldn't run into too much trouble anyhow.
It's funny - one of my brothers who attended a four-year college, and in later years attended a couple of different community colleges, is the one who gives me the most grief over homeschooling. The subject of college is his main attack method ("are they going to college?" "don't you think homeschooling is going to hurt their chances?" etc.). He was a typical bookworm in high school, and one of his best friends was a teacher who strongly believed that everyone should go on to college. He's in his mid-40s now and has never held a job in the field he studied. He has held a string of low-paying jobs that he doesn't like, sometimes with months and months of unemployment between jobs (while living at my mother's house). Why he doesn't see that college didn't exactly pay off for him, I don't understand. I'm too polite to say this to him, and try to remain calm when he attacks our choice to homeschool. When we saw him just a few weeks ago, he asked if my 5 YEAR OLD is going to go to college! I was surprised by the stupidity of the question, and it was difficult to stop myself from saying "ARE YOU CRAZY? HOW COULD I POSSIBLY KNOW IF A FIVE YEAR OLD IS GOING TO COLLEGE?!" Instead, I politely said "we'll have to wait several years to see if she is interested in going." I think he got the point, as he dropped the subject after that.
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/28/2005 10:34:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
onehundredacrewood@... writes:
When we saw him just a few weeks ago, he asked if my 5 YEAR OLD is going to
go to college! I was surprised by the stupidity of the question, and it was
difficult to stop myself from saying "ARE YOU CRAZY? HOW COULD I POSSIBLY
KNOW IF A FIVE YEAR OLD IS GOING TO COLLEGE?!" Instead, I politely said
"we'll have to wait several years to see if she is interested in going." I think
he got the point, as he dropped the subject after that.
Debbie
*****
I talk about how we cannot even begin to fathom the technological advances
made in the next 13 years and the affect they will have on our society. I say
I am doing my best to help my child remain open to what *will* happen as
opposed to what happened in my generation. That might include college. Who
knows? College may only be an option for those going into professions such as
law by that time.
If nothing else, it opens up discussion.
Leslie in SC (Nick, 8 and Emmy, 4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
onehundredacrewood@... writes:
When we saw him just a few weeks ago, he asked if my 5 YEAR OLD is going to
go to college! I was surprised by the stupidity of the question, and it was
difficult to stop myself from saying "ARE YOU CRAZY? HOW COULD I POSSIBLY
KNOW IF A FIVE YEAR OLD IS GOING TO COLLEGE?!" Instead, I politely said
"we'll have to wait several years to see if she is interested in going." I think
he got the point, as he dropped the subject after that.
Debbie
*****
I talk about how we cannot even begin to fathom the technological advances
made in the next 13 years and the affect they will have on our society. I say
I am doing my best to help my child remain open to what *will* happen as
opposed to what happened in my generation. That might include college. Who
knows? College may only be an option for those going into professions such as
law by that time.
If nothing else, it opens up discussion.
Leslie in SC (Nick, 8 and Emmy, 4)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liz Stevens
I just wanted to add that my brother did very poorly through out school,dropped out to homeschool in 8th grade. Got his GED in his early 20's and now is pursuing a degree in engineering. So he isn't going to an Ivy League school but he is very smart and the fact that he had no transcripts never hurt him.
Liz
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Liz
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 28, 2005, at 7:10 AM, Debbie wrote:
your main concern, unschooling is probably not for you.
Unschoolers put real learning first - the learning is for its own sake,
not for the purpose of creating transcripts, earning a diploma, or
getting into college.
BUT - amazingly (no longer amazing to me <G>) unschooled kids often DO
go to college and do extremely well.
I attribute my daughters' success in college to unschooling.
So - there ya go - a seeming paradox that really isn't.
-pam
> If the main concern is transcripts, a diploma and college,Maybe we could say that IF transcripts, diploma, and college are truly
> unschooling probably won't work for you.
>
>
> That's not what I wanted to hear! LOL.
your main concern, unschooling is probably not for you.
Unschoolers put real learning first - the learning is for its own sake,
not for the purpose of creating transcripts, earning a diploma, or
getting into college.
BUT - amazingly (no longer amazing to me <G>) unschooled kids often DO
go to college and do extremely well.
I attribute my daughters' success in college to unschooling.
So - there ya go - a seeming paradox that really isn't.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
There is no need to document with college in mind until they decide
they DO want to go. You can do it then.
There is CERTAINLY no need to document anything for college purposes
for kids not even yet close to college age.
I'm not sure what all those parents DO with all their "documentation"
that they've kept during all those years of homeschooling - I know
that the colleges and universities do NOT care what your child was
doing instead of elementary or middle school. What your child did in
place of going to high school COULD be of interest to them if the kid
is applying as a freshman - so if you want to take notes along the way
to help your memory when it comes time to apply, that might make some
sense. My kids haven't needed any documentation at all of any kind -
because they went to community college - once they do that, the
university relies on what they did there and doesn't care about what
they did instead of high school.
-pam
they DO want to go. You can do it then.
There is CERTAINLY no need to document anything for college purposes
for kids not even yet close to college age.
I'm not sure what all those parents DO with all their "documentation"
that they've kept during all those years of homeschooling - I know
that the colleges and universities do NOT care what your child was
doing instead of elementary or middle school. What your child did in
place of going to high school COULD be of interest to them if the kid
is applying as a freshman - so if you want to take notes along the way
to help your memory when it comes time to apply, that might make some
sense. My kids haven't needed any documentation at all of any kind -
because they went to community college - once they do that, the
university relies on what they did there and doesn't care about what
they did instead of high school.
-pam
On Jan 28, 2005, at 7:10 AM, Debbie wrote:
> Aren't there any unschoolers on this list who are documenting what
> their chldren learn, just in case they want to apply to colleges some
> day?
Jenny Altenbach
>As a college instructor I can definitely understand this. I usually
> BUT - amazingly (no longer amazing to me <G>) unschooled kids often DO
> go to college and do extremely well.
>
> I attribute my daughters' success in college to unschooling.
>
> So - there ya go - a seeming paradox that really isn't.
>
> -pam
teach in the evenings, so the majority of studens in my classes are
adults who have been in the work force for a while and are going back to
school for whatever reason. These people are much more highly motivated
than the ones who are there because they are taking college courses
because they think they "have to". They participate in class and do
thoughtful work. One could argue that it is because they are older and
therefore more mature, but I think it is because they have finally had a
few years of being in charge of their own lives and they now have a
sense of self-motivation (of course, I know several adults who have not
yet achieved this, but they usually don't show up in my classes). Many
of the 18 year olds who are coming out of high school barely know how to
write, usually don't come to class, and do the bare minimum of work
required to get a C. They clearly don't want to be there, and it's
really a drag for me to have them in class. I'll tell you--I'd rather
have an unschooler who is there by choice any day!
Jenny
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:44 AM, Daniel MacIntyre wrote:
daughter's college experience is that she's finding the college work
EXTREMELY rich in learning opportunities - very very valuable.
I'd add - if somebody is going to college in order to make themselves
into a "marketable commodity," then they're probably not going to enjoy
and get a lot out of college, anyway.
Roya (my 20 yo) will talk about college and unschooling at the Live and
Learn Conference this year - I think her perspective on college will
just sound SO different than the above - her reasons for college
couldn't be MORE different, I don't think.
-pam
> Instead of going to college full time at 18, a wise student will seekThis assumes there is nothing of value IN the college courses. My
> employment by a company on a part-time basis and take his college work
> by examination. His college degree will cost him $12,000 instead of
> costing his parents $35,000 to $140,000. He can pay his own way
> through school. He can gain his independence at 18.
daughter's college experience is that she's finding the college work
EXTREMELY rich in learning opportunities - very very valuable.
>Aha - well - that makes sense if the goal is just to "make a buck."
> He will be trained on the job by people who know how to make a buck.
> He will have a four-year to six-year head start on his peers.Are they in a race?
> At ageIck.
> 22 or 23, he will have a college degree and work experience that will
> impress a would-be employer. He will be in a position to rise in the
> existing chain of command because his employer knows he is now a
> marketable commodity in the business world. The employer will have to
> pay him more money.
I'd add - if somebody is going to college in order to make themselves
into a "marketable commodity," then they're probably not going to enjoy
and get a lot out of college, anyway.
Roya (my 20 yo) will talk about college and unschooling at the Live and
Learn Conference this year - I think her perspective on college will
just sound SO different than the above - her reasons for college
couldn't be MORE different, I don't think.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 28, 2005, at 8:32 AM, Debbie wrote:
want to see evidence of academic ability - taking some courses at the
community college can take care of that.
It is the art portfolio that makes the difference, though.
Art colleges can be VERY competitive.
Taking art courses at a community college is a really good way to build
up an impressive portfolio.
Also - there are community colleges with very impressive art
departments where a person can get a LOT of support for developing
their art - and isn't that the point anyway?
-pam
> Right now, she thinks she might want to attend college to further herArt schools require a portfolio of the applicant's work. They may also
> art skills. I doubt getting accepted to an art college is as
> difficult as getting accepted at other types of colleges, so she most
> likely wouldn't run into too much trouble anyhow.
want to see evidence of academic ability - taking some courses at the
community college can take care of that.
It is the art portfolio that makes the difference, though.
Art colleges can be VERY competitive.
Taking art courses at a community college is a really good way to build
up an impressive portfolio.
Also - there are community colleges with very impressive art
departments where a person can get a LOT of support for developing
their art - and isn't that the point anyway?
-pam
[email protected]
I just wanted to add that my brother did very poorly through out
school,dropped out to homeschool in 8th grade. Got his GED in his early 20's and now is
pursuing a degree in engineering. So he isn't going to an Ivy League school but
he is very smart and the fact that he had no transcripts never hurt him.
Liz
this post especially is very incouraging to me as my youngest son,which had
trouble @ birth breathing,struggled through 5 yrs of public school which
labeled him early as learning disabled,which did well in private school,untill the
focus went from totally a mission for the kids to their own agendas(too long to
go into!!),,then he floundered and they also,without the label but by
putting him into school work way below his intelligence labeled him learning
disabled also,,my question is,if someone is suppose to be learning disabled,how is
teaching them below their obvious intellengence suppose to enable them?????????
he is 15,an awesome young man,smarter in his own right than many grown
men,why,because if its something that interest him ,,he absorbs it ...stuff he
couldnt care less about ,,,he doesnt .....hummmmm gee,,,,funny thing,,,it takes
most of us,''educated'',''normal'',,adults half our lives to embrace what
matters and screw the rest....isnt that what begins giving us peace with
ourselves???hummmmmmmmmmm
i even scare myself sometimes!!!
goin for more coffee!!
school,dropped out to homeschool in 8th grade. Got his GED in his early 20's and now is
pursuing a degree in engineering. So he isn't going to an Ivy League school but
he is very smart and the fact that he had no transcripts never hurt him.
Liz
this post especially is very incouraging to me as my youngest son,which had
trouble @ birth breathing,struggled through 5 yrs of public school which
labeled him early as learning disabled,which did well in private school,untill the
focus went from totally a mission for the kids to their own agendas(too long to
go into!!),,then he floundered and they also,without the label but by
putting him into school work way below his intelligence labeled him learning
disabled also,,my question is,if someone is suppose to be learning disabled,how is
teaching them below their obvious intellengence suppose to enable them?????????
he is 15,an awesome young man,smarter in his own right than many grown
men,why,because if its something that interest him ,,he absorbs it ...stuff he
couldnt care less about ,,,he doesnt .....hummmmm gee,,,,funny thing,,,it takes
most of us,''educated'',''normal'',,adults half our lives to embrace what
matters and screw the rest....isnt that what begins giving us peace with
ourselves???hummmmmmmmmmm
i even scare myself sometimes!!!
goin for more coffee!!
>>June<<[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debbie
Thank you Pam. I'm sure you're right about colleges not caring to see records from any grades below high school level.
My dd will begin 9th grade next year, so I was thinking that I should somehow keep track of the basics that she will cover during the next 4 years. Then again, maybe not.
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My dd will begin 9th grade next year, so I was thinking that I should somehow keep track of the basics that she will cover during the next 4 years. Then again, maybe not.
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:49:13 -0800, Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
found at college. There are learning opportunities everywhere. If
the experience you find in college can only be found in college, then
how well will it apply to your situation after college?
article is pitched to an audience that is considering sending their
children to college so they have better employment prospects.
Different audiences will, of course, elicit different arguments.
a better resume, which leads to better jobs and more financial
prosperity.
put into it. My personal point is that it is not the only place you
can get it
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>THIS assumes that the value found in the college courses can ONLY be
>
> On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:44 AM, Daniel MacIntyre wrote:
>
> > Instead of going to college full time at 18, a wise student will seek
> > employment by a company on a part-time basis and take his college work
> > by examination. His college degree will cost him $12,000 instead of
> > costing his parents $35,000 to $140,000. He can pay his own way
> > through school. He can gain his independence at 18.
>
> This assumes there is nothing of value IN the college courses. My
> daughter's college experience is that she's finding the college work
> EXTREMELY rich in learning opportunities - very very valuable.
>
found at college. There are learning opportunities everywhere. If
the experience you find in college can only be found in college, then
how well will it apply to your situation after college?
> >yes, the author's goal was to help the student "make a buck" The
> > He will be trained on the job by people who know how to make a buck.
>
> Aha - well - that makes sense if the goal is just to "make a buck."
>
article is pitched to an audience that is considering sending their
children to college so they have better employment prospects.
Different audiences will, of course, elicit different arguments.
>same audience - an early start in employment means more job skills and
> > He will have a four-year to six-year head start on his peers.
>
> Are they in a race?
a better resume, which leads to better jobs and more financial
prosperity.
>I assume to the whole "money" thing again.
> > At age
> > 22 or 23, he will have a college degree and work experience that will
> > impress a would-be employer. He will be in a position to rise in the
> > existing chain of command because his employer knows he is now a
> > marketable commodity in the business world. The employer will have to
> > pay him more money.
>
> Ick.
>College - as with many things - is something that gives you what you
> I'd add - if somebody is going to college in order to make themselves
> into a "marketable commodity," then they're probably not going to enjoy
> and get a lot out of college, anyway.
>
put into it. My personal point is that it is not the only place you
can get it
> Roya (my 20 yo) will talk about college and unschooling at the Live and
> Learn Conference this year - I think her perspective on college will
> just sound SO different than the above - her reasons for college
> couldn't be MORE different, I don't think.
>
> -pam
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Debbie
Also - there are community colleges with very impressive art
departments where a person can get a LOT of support for developing
their art - and isn't that the point anyway?
Yes. Thank you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
departments where a person can get a LOT of support for developing
their art - and isn't that the point anyway?
Yes. Thank you.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisette Abbott
I have to jump in here for a bit. It *is* wonderful
teaching homeschoolers and unschoolers. I've had one
school-at-home hser and a couple of relaxed hsers in
my classes, and I've had a couple of unschoolers, and
the sheer passion that the unschoolers expressed in
their writing (I taught English & Women's Studies) was
just *amazing* and completely refreshing! And their
critical thinking was just awesome.
Plus, I wasn't the only instructor/professor who
expected the students to take charge of and own their
own education (by finding their own subjects and
angles on which to write, etc). The unschoolers and
relaxed hsers had no significant problems in my
classes. The traditional public-schooled and even the
school-at-home hsers had more problems, particularly
the public-schooled kids. Whereas the unschoolers had
some minor problems on grammar (which they ended up
mastering by the end of the semester probably because
they had a reason to understand the often goofy
grammar rules), the public-schooled kids and
school-at-home hsers (to a much lesser degree, though)
had much more trouble in critical thinking, analyzing,
and interpreting--abstract skills and much more
important than mickey-mouse grammar rules. (Besides,
that's why grammar handbooks have been invented--to
help us all look up that pesky definition of
intransitive verb!)
Plus, I was *never* asked by an unschooler (and I've
taught quite a few at UTSA and Purdue), "Is this going
to be on the test?" AAARGGH!
So I don't see a problem with unschooling and going to
college.
My 2cents,
~Lisette
--- Jenny Altenbach <salten@...> wrote:
"You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within himself." Galileo
teaching homeschoolers and unschoolers. I've had one
school-at-home hser and a couple of relaxed hsers in
my classes, and I've had a couple of unschoolers, and
the sheer passion that the unschoolers expressed in
their writing (I taught English & Women's Studies) was
just *amazing* and completely refreshing! And their
critical thinking was just awesome.
Plus, I wasn't the only instructor/professor who
expected the students to take charge of and own their
own education (by finding their own subjects and
angles on which to write, etc). The unschoolers and
relaxed hsers had no significant problems in my
classes. The traditional public-schooled and even the
school-at-home hsers had more problems, particularly
the public-schooled kids. Whereas the unschoolers had
some minor problems on grammar (which they ended up
mastering by the end of the semester probably because
they had a reason to understand the often goofy
grammar rules), the public-schooled kids and
school-at-home hsers (to a much lesser degree, though)
had much more trouble in critical thinking, analyzing,
and interpreting--abstract skills and much more
important than mickey-mouse grammar rules. (Besides,
that's why grammar handbooks have been invented--to
help us all look up that pesky definition of
intransitive verb!)
Plus, I was *never* asked by an unschooler (and I've
taught quite a few at UTSA and Purdue), "Is this going
to be on the test?" AAARGGH!
So I don't see a problem with unschooling and going to
college.
My 2cents,
~Lisette
--- Jenny Altenbach <salten@...> wrote:
>=====
> >
> > BUT - amazingly (no longer amazing to me <G>)
> unschooled kids often DO
> > go to college and do extremely well.
> >
> > I attribute my daughters' success in college to
> unschooling.
> >
> > So - there ya go - a seeming paradox that really
> isn't.
> >
> > -pam
>
> As a college instructor I can definitely understand
> this. I usually
> teach in the evenings, so the majority of studens in
> my classes are
> adults who have been in the work force for a while
> and are going back to
> school for whatever reason. These people are much
> more highly motivated
> than the ones who are there because they are taking
> college courses
> because they think they "have to". They
> participate in class and do
> thoughtful work. One could argue that it is because
> they are older and
> therefore more mature, but I think it is because
> they have finally had a
> few years of being in charge of their own lives and
> they now have a
> sense of self-motivation (of course, I know several
> adults who have not
> yet achieved this, but they usually don't show up in
> my classes). Many
> of the 18 year olds who are coming out of high
> school barely know how to
> write, usually don't come to class, and do the bare
> minimum of work
> required to get a C. They clearly don't want to be
> there, and it's
> really a drag for me to have them in class. I'll
> tell you--I'd rather
> have an unschooler who is there by choice any day!
>
> Jenny
>
>
"You cannot teach a person anything; you can only help him find it within himself." Galileo
Pam Sorooshian
On Jan 28, 2005, at 11:17 AM, Daniel MacIntyre wrote:
I'm an economist, in fact.
But "ick" to any sense of hurry to have 22 or 23 year olds already have
college degrees and experience and worrying about rising in existing
chains of command and thinking of themselves as "marketable
commodities."
-pam
>>I have no objection to making money <G>.
>>> At age
>>> 22 or 23, he will have a college degree and work experience that will
>>> impress a would-be employer. He will be in a position to rise in the
>>> existing chain of command because his employer knows he is now a
>>> marketable commodity in the business world. The employer will have to
>>> pay him more money.
>>
>> Ick.
>
> I assume to the whole "money" thing again.
I'm an economist, in fact.
But "ick" to any sense of hurry to have 22 or 23 year olds already have
college degrees and experience and worrying about rising in existing
chains of command and thinking of themselves as "marketable
commodities."
-pam
Ren Allen
~~Hi there. Delurking for an official intro and so Danielle can
un-moderate me.~~
Hi Brad and welcome to UB! You've been officially unmoderated, but
Danielle's list is actually Always Unschooled.:) Glad you delurked though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
un-moderate me.~~
Hi Brad and welcome to UB! You've been officially unmoderated, but
Danielle's list is actually Always Unschooled.:) Glad you delurked though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com