nancyannbennett

Hello everybody,
This is my first post here. I've been lurking here and over on always learning. I have a son who is 5 and a daughter who is 19 months. I guess we are deschooling. I certainly feel wobbly at times, tho not so much about learning more about getting along together. We do seem to be slowly finding our feet with saying yes more and generally living more joyfully.
I was wondering if anyone here can give us suggestions with my son's interest in knives. The last few months he's really really interested in knives and blades, but knives in particular. He has asked to be given a knife. I'm learning Non Violent Communication so I used this to try to explore both our needs. I think he has a need to feel big and grown up. I have a need to keep everyone safe, and reassurance of that safety. We've looked on the Internet at some cool pictures on sites of role who make custom knifes, learnt some interesting things about the different parts and history. I've got some Lino cutting tools and Lino but he doesn't seem very interested in that. My son did some whittling with my husband to make a bow and arrow set from some branches off trees in our garden using a penknife. He did love that and has asked to make another. I'm just wondering what else we can do with him? I wondered about soap carving and I see you can get little starter kits and books on how to make animals. Maybe a christmas present for him? Since he also loves animals I thought that might be fun for him. And it would give him opportunity to practice with how blades work before he works with harder materials like wood. The thing is all he talks about is wanting to own a knife. We have bought butter knives from the charity shop which he likes collecting but he really wants a penknife. He's so young yet. I also find it tricky to supervise using knifes with my daughter around. I try to offer to do stuff when she naps but often my son wants to snuggle up and read them.
I'd love to here any suggestions or if anyone else has experienced similar situations with young children. Thank you for reading
Best wishes
Nancy-Ann

Claire Darbaud

My 6 year old has a small pen knife like this one:
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B000UH4POA/
It was given to her at the "farfadet" scouts (ie: 6 -8 year old scouts)

She knows there are safety rules for using the knife, ie:
- always around an adult
- only used to cut things or carve wood
- never as a toy weapon
- always pushing the blade away from your body
- never pushing the blade towrad someone else

She loves it and she is very good with it. I'd be ok with her owning a
regular swiss army pen knife. I'll get her one if she asks. And we live on
the swiss border, our neighbors across the border almost make owning a pen
knife a part of their identity ;-)

At the scouts, the kids know if they break the safety rules, the knive will
be taken from them. I feel it's fair enough.

At home I would feel inclined to respond with more presence and
disponibility around the use of the knife, rather then taking it away.

http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids.html

The continuum concept touches on that, too. Liedloff tells how 2 year old
harmlessly play with the big machetes...

My 2 cents
Claire


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Meredith

"nancyannbennett" <tom.bennett@...> wrote:
> The thing is all he talks about is wanting to own a knife.

So get him a knife. You've seen him use knives - is he careful? I'm guessing you have scissors in the house, some of which may be "his" in some capacity - is he careful with them? If he's *generally* capable and careful, then get him a knife. Consider a place to store it, perhaps - a special box or drawer for such a special things, the way you might have a box or drawer for knives and scissors - or a knife block or scissor hooks.

>>I wondered about soap carving and I see you can get little starter kits and books on how to make animals. Maybe a christmas present for him? Since he also loves animals I thought that might be fun for him. And it would give him opportunity to practice with how blades work before he works with harder materials like wood.
****************

Some woods are pretty soft, too, but sometimes it's actually easier to carve a harder wood. It wouldn't hurt to get a basic book for yourself on the subject of whittling and/or wood carving, since that's bound to be addressed - how to tell if a wood is going to be easy to carve or hard based on the grain and other such details. Ray makes old-fashioned hand carved wooden kitchen utensils and often prefers harder woods because it's easier to control the knife. That doesn't mean soap carving is a bad idea, just realize it doesn't use all the same principles as wood carving - once you add grain, things get interesting.

>> I also find it tricky to supervise using knifes with my daughter around. I try to offer to do stuff when she naps but often my son wants to snuggle up and read them.
*****************

That's where having a special home for the knife could be useful - he can still Have a knife, but its not always safe to get it out because of the baby. See a knife the way you would paint or scissors or even a pet like a hamster - you don't bring the hamster out when baby is on the floor, you don't set up paints where baby is going to ruin the furniture, and you don't whittle when baby is exploring. Just be sure you follow through with all your assertions that "we'll do it later".

>> I'm learning Non Violent Communication so I used this to try to explore both our needs. I think he has a need to feel big and grown up.
**************

It's easy to get too bogged down thinking in terms of "needs". Desires are also potent and valuable. He wants something. That doesn't have to stem from some kind of existential gap, he can find something fascinating and desirable because that's how humans relate to the world - we learn and grow by following our interests and desires (and maybe that's a kind of existential gap all its own). That's why unschoolers try to support our kids in doing what they want to do, as much as possible.

---Meredith

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I am reading Meredith's post and I would have written pretty much the same but NOT for a 9 month old.
 They do not have the coordination to be using a knife that can hurt them safely.
My son was doing lots of things early and walking at nine months. He did use a knife probably at around one but at 9  he was just not ready.
You are doing great by getting him a butter knife. I think that was a great idea.
Sometimes somethings are just not safe. That will change with time and maturity. 
Finding safe substitutes or distraction can help a lot but sometimes kids will get frustrated not matter what .
I used to try an fix everything so my son would not get frustrated until I realize that sometimes there is really nothing I could do but commiserate, keep calm and be supportive and sweet.
I could not make a rainy day go away. I could find a butter knife that my son could use.
 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 




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Meredith

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
>I would have written pretty much the same but NOT for a 9 month old.
******************

There are two threads going on right now, one with a 5yo and one with a baby - that's confusing! and I'm glad Alex wrote that because it's important to remember that Any advice you read online needs to be taken with skepticism.

---Meredith

nancyannbennett

Thanks to everyone who responded to my plea!
I wanted to say how helpful these replies have been and to make a few comments.

***************
So get him a knife. You've seen him use knives - is he careful? I'm guessing you
have scissors in the house, some of which may be "his" in some capacity - is he
careful with them? If he's *generally* capable and careful, then get him a
knife. Consider a place to store it, perhaps - a special box or drawer for such
a special things, the way you might have a box or drawer for knives and scissors
- or a knife block or scissor hooks.******************

Yes, thanks for poitning this out. He does use scissors and has from a very early age. He was interested in cutting with them very young, so we got him safety kids scissors. Soon these didn't really work to cut the string he wanted so he ended up using regular scissros, very carefully and storing them in a proper place - as you say. He was very young and people who witnessed this did frown upopn us for it. I hadn't considered a knife to be like this and it is worth thinking about, thanks. I don't know why we didn't think about this before.

*************
Some woods are pretty soft, too, but sometimes it's actually easier to carve a
harder wood. It wouldn't hurt to get a basic book for yourself on the subject of
whittling and/or wood carving, since that's bound to be addressed - how to tell
if a wood is going to be easy to carve or hard based on the grain and other such
details. ***************

Again, thanks for this insight and information. I will get a book as I had no idea about the diffeerent carving properties of woods and had assumed that soft equals easiest! THat's the great thing about this style of learning - you can learn facisinating stuff right along with your child :o)

*************
we learn and grow by following our
interests and desires (and maybe that's a kind of existential gap all its own).
That's why unschoolers try to support our kids in doing what they want to do, as
much as possible.**************
I appreciate this comment. I do try to support my children with thier interests. I guess this particular one just threw me and I am not entirely sure why. I think I am worried about his safety and my 1 year old daughter,s safety but also worried about what other's think. My son has mentioned to other adults eg grandparents he wants a knife and how much he lieks them and the adults have told him he won't be having one of those and glared at me, or spoken about safety.

*******************
My 6 year old has a small pen knife like this one:
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/B000UH4POA/
It was given to her at the "farfadet" scouts (ie: 6 -8 year old scouts).

http://www.ted.com/talks/gever_tulley_on_5_dangerous_things_for_kids.html8*********************************

Claire, thanks so much for these links. They have been very helpful to us. My husnad really enjoyed the TEd talk and has given us both food for thought. It is helpful for me to know the ages of other children who have knives. (6-8 year olds). I guess this shouldn't be the case as it shouldn't matter what other children are doing but I should look at *my* child and go from there- more deschooling to do on my part ;o) Reading the scout safety rules made sense to me too.

**********************
At the scouts, the kids know if they break the safety rules, the knive will
be taken from them. I feel it's fair enough.

At home I would feel inclined to respond with more presence and
disponibility around the use of the knife, rather then taking it away.
****************
Can I ask what you meant by this? I sometimes am at a loss as to how to deal with some situations. I sometiems feel like I need more tools, more mindfulness...

*******************8
I didn't get the luxury of a "good kid" with Ray, so I had the chance to get a
hard look at what rules do and don't do. They don't protect anyone. They don't
parent your kids when your back is turned - and depending on the child, may set
your kid up to do Exactly those things you'd rather he didn't. They don't
provide a sense of safety when you're "firm" about them because in order to be
really, really "firm" (with a particularly curious and/or thoughtful child) you
have to be so dogmatic that the rules become a power-trip - otherwise every rule
is modified and excepted in response to good sense. ************
*************************
The problem with "No knives" is that said kid sees the adults use them
without harm. So their lived experience does not match what they are being
told. I suppose I'm trying to say more presence, guidance and respect for
the child as a human being, and less "rules" because "rules" only give the
impression they work. All I see are "rules" doing damage on really
profound scales with the kids in my program.

*********************
These two comments really hit me hard. They summed up how I feel about rules but gave me real life examples too. I am on such a journey with my parenting and am committed to finding a better way to be more minful with my 5 year old son. I am challanged daily as my 5 year old is extrememly inquisitive, imaginative, talkative, and very persistant! He wantes to expolre thinns for himself. Yet he is scared of climbing high and of doing some of the things at the park but he is keen to be master of many other aspects of his life. He is a pretty sensible boy in general. I don't want him to be fearful of knives or unable to use them when he is older. I just want to help him to explore his passions safely :o)

Thanks agian for all the responses and I hoep some of this is helpful to others,
Best wishes
Nancy-Ann