Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
Michele
You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of jobs that they have never heard before = more "doors" = more opportunities.
College grads have shown that they can complete projects and classes to a successful graduation. Completing assignments and a diploma is important for many business owners.
The statistics about College Grads vs. Non College Grads is looking at the General Population. No question that most people that don't go to college make much much less money. No question. I would even say that the 40% of college dropouts do better than the population that didn't even try to go to college. AGAIN .. for the only reason of motivation. They are slightly more motivated than the others to earn more money. IN GENERAL.
The question is can someone become successful or have a decent career without a college education absolutely. They need to be jazzed about something, motivated and want to continually learn and improve. College isn't the ONLY way but no one should fool themselves into dismissing college altogether.
For people that just want to earn 50,000 or less per year they have to think about how they can afford a family, vacations, healthcare, retirement, cloths, food, cars etc. Just doing what you want to do, following your passion DOES NOT automatically mean happiness.
****************
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of jobs that they have never heard before = more "doors" = more opportunities.
College grads have shown that they can complete projects and classes to a successful graduation. Completing assignments and a diploma is important for many business owners.
The statistics about College Grads vs. Non College Grads is looking at the General Population. No question that most people that don't go to college make much much less money. No question. I would even say that the 40% of college dropouts do better than the population that didn't even try to go to college. AGAIN .. for the only reason of motivation. They are slightly more motivated than the others to earn more money. IN GENERAL.
The question is can someone become successful or have a decent career without a college education absolutely. They need to be jazzed about something, motivated and want to continually learn and improve. College isn't the ONLY way but no one should fool themselves into dismissing college altogether.
For people that just want to earn 50,000 or less per year they have to think about how they can afford a family, vacations, healthcare, retirement, cloths, food, cars etc. Just doing what you want to do, following your passion DOES NOT automatically mean happiness.
****************
[email protected]
My BF dropped out of HS to join the Navy. He got his GED but didn't complete college. He built up a business with his father and makes 6 figures a year.
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Michele <michelewith3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011 00:40:57 GMT+00:00
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Michele <michelewith3@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Jun 8, 2011 00:40:57 GMT+00:00
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debora Solarski
My husband is a college and university grad and makes less than $40 000 per year, he has made more but was miserable. I work only part time (teaching at a college).
My husband I both agree that going to post secondary only proves that you have the ability to learn - it doesn't mean you will actually enjoy doing it or even be any good at it. Example- someone may have the brains and ability to get through medical school but have the bedside manner of a stone. Or they may decide that they do not like it. (actual knowledge of person who went through med school and specialty and left it all behind to work in landscaping).
Deb
You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My husband I both agree that going to post secondary only proves that you have the ability to learn - it doesn't mean you will actually enjoy doing it or even be any good at it. Example- someone may have the brains and ability to get through medical school but have the bedside manner of a stone. Or they may decide that they do not like it. (actual knowledge of person who went through med school and specialty and left it all behind to work in landscaping).
Deb
You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
this is the letter************************************************************************
College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
How old are your children? I would worry about it less. I would let your
husband's awareness of the world grow, or not, as his children grow. I wouldn't
pick apart his e-mail. I wouldn't harass him to share your opinion.
If I were having a conversation with someone about the reason why college
students do well I wouldn't lean on motivation as the cause. I would assume it
had something to do with streaming. Blake Boles is quoted as saying "Degrees
represent competency. Competency represents itself." A motivated individual
probably needs college less than an unmotivated person in the hunt for a
meaningful or high paying job.
There is a thing I've really enjoyed recently. It's the Edge.org World Question
for 2011. In it is a response by Daniel Kahneman whose idea is Focussing
Illusion. http://edge.org/q2011/q11_17.html#kahneman for the whole thing, but
his intro paragraph is this:
Education is an important determinant of income — one of the most important —
but it is less important than most people think. If everyone had the same
education, the inequality of income would be reduced by less than 10%. When
you focus on education you neglect the myriad other factors that determine
income. The differences of income among people who have the same education are
huge.
-----
Clearly there are more reasons than college for people's income.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
husband's awareness of the world grow, or not, as his children grow. I wouldn't
pick apart his e-mail. I wouldn't harass him to share your opinion.
If I were having a conversation with someone about the reason why college
students do well I wouldn't lean on motivation as the cause. I would assume it
had something to do with streaming. Blake Boles is quoted as saying "Degrees
represent competency. Competency represents itself." A motivated individual
probably needs college less than an unmotivated person in the hunt for a
meaningful or high paying job.
There is a thing I've really enjoyed recently. It's the Edge.org World Question
for 2011. In it is a response by Daniel Kahneman whose idea is Focussing
Illusion. http://edge.org/q2011/q11_17.html#kahneman for the whole thing, but
his intro paragraph is this:
Education is an important determinant of income — one of the most important —
but it is less important than most people think. If everyone had the same
education, the inequality of income would be reduced by less than 10%. When
you focus on education you neglect the myriad other factors that determine
income. The differences of income among people who have the same education are
huge.
-----
Clearly there are more reasons than college for people's income.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bkind28
Deb made a great point! I know many teachers who decided teaching wasn't for them. I also know cosmetologists who don't do it because of the hours. I like my job but it doesn't pay well. I don't have a degree but the 3 people who sit with me all do. Guess what? They make the same bad pay but have loans. ;)
[email protected]
So, per you DH, college is a measure of how much a person wants to make money? Maybe so. But if the young person does not start off motivated in that direction, is college worth it? In terms of time spent and debt. Is a young person better off working for a while until they get motivated to earn more? Or until they figure out where they want to head?
OTOH, if the young person doesn't object, doesn't have a job or a clue, maybe college is as good a place to be as any other. Is that his point? That if the young person is not already motivated to make more then $50,000 a year, college will give them that motivation?
It doesn't sound like you and your DH are disagreeing so much as emphasizing different aspects of the same answer. Both of you seem to start out with not dismissing college but you emphasize that not going to college may be the choice and he emphasizes going to college.
And he argues like a man. Statements as fact. You take a "let's look at all the possibilities and discuss it" approach.
Good luck with all that. :)
Nance
OTOH, if the young person doesn't object, doesn't have a job or a clue, maybe college is as good a place to be as any other. Is that his point? That if the young person is not already motivated to make more then $50,000 a year, college will give them that motivation?
It doesn't sound like you and your DH are disagreeing so much as emphasizing different aspects of the same answer. Both of you seem to start out with not dismissing college but you emphasize that not going to college may be the choice and he emphasizes going to college.
And he argues like a man. Statements as fact. You take a "let's look at all the possibilities and discuss it" approach.
Good luck with all that. :)
Nance
--- In [email protected], "Michele" <michelewith3@...> wrote:
>
> You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
> I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
>
> this is the letter************************************************************************
>
> College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
> Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
>
> College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
>
> College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of jobs that they have never heard before = more "doors" = more opportunities.
>
> College grads have shown that they can complete projects and classes to a successful graduation. Completing assignments and a diploma is important for many business owners.
>
> The statistics about College Grads vs. Non College Grads is looking at the General Population. No question that most people that don't go to college make much much less money. No question. I would even say that the 40% of college dropouts do better than the population that didn't even try to go to college. AGAIN .. for the only reason of motivation. They are slightly more motivated than the others to earn more money. IN GENERAL.
>
>
> The question is can someone become successful or have a decent career without a college education absolutely. They need to be jazzed about something, motivated and want to continually learn and improve. College isn't the ONLY way but no one should fool themselves into dismissing college altogether.
>
>
> For people that just want to earn 50,000 or less per year they have to think about how they can afford a family, vacations, healthcare, retirement, cloths, food, cars etc. Just doing what you want to do, following your passion DOES NOT automatically mean happiness.
>
>
> ****************
>
Vickisue Gray
=)
I dropped out of a lousy high school, took my GED, and went on to have a wonderful life. I, too, thought having a GED was a negative, and oh way back then, many jobs looked at me is if 'I was less then' because of the GED. Then I landed a job as a Police/Fire/Rescue Dispatcher. Being a government agency, they couldn't hold the GED High School Diploma as less then a regular high school diploma. It didn't take long for them to see me as a very smart young lady and it was pointed out that the city I was working for, would pay for me to go to college. Since an AA degree would jump up my pay, and college would be paid for, I went back to school while working the midnight shift, and earned my degree.
After a long career in Law Enforcement, moving into Records then Liasion for the city, I moved on to other things. Mainly, I was afforded a few years as a stay at home mom with my youngest child. (I'd say one of the best jobs ever!) Times got hard after the stock market crash in the late 90's so it was time to go back to work. I landed a job working for the Federal government. My 'degree' never came into play. What did was A) Not having a criminal background and B) passing the test. I had no knowledge of the job I was seeking prior to seeking it. I had to learn, which I did, passing the test with high scores on the first round.
Years later, I'm now the supervisor, in a professional position, making a decent income. Sure, many times people with degrees apply to my office and when there's an opening, we hire. The degree (if it's in our field of work) just means they already 'should' know what we do. It's been found, the higher the degree, the more trouble they are. (Four years = good ~ master = pain in the ass) Anyway, the last few hired only had GED's but they worked their butts off to pass the required tests and they continue to learn everything they can making them wonderful employees. Some of my employees had military backgrounds, some college, some just GED's. What I love about this place is, the older fellows genuinely like the younger folk and have shared their wealth of knowledge with them so my 'newbies' become seasoned fast. Everyone here is really happy and the team spirit makes coming to work a positive. Pay has nothing to do with education.
Besides all the above, whether you and or your spouse WANTS your kids to go to college, only your kids can make that decision for themselves. Students who go 'because they are forced' just waste the tuition. Students who go because they WANT to be there do well, and there's really not much you can say either way. All you can do is allow your kids to enjoy learning and let them know all the options available to them and assist them in which ever way they choose.
Having a dad, with a career he enjoys, that required a degree, is really enough for them to grasp this concept. In reading what was required to get hired at Blizzard, I found it interesting that some jobs require a degree and others just require talent. If you can do that which they are looking for, they don't really care where nor how you learned it. My oldest is working a professional job while she goes to college to earn her degree in another field. She currently earns around $28 per hour. Once her degree is achieved, she will be lucky to see that as starting pay in her chosen next direction. Also, her hobby is designing costumes for comic cons another field that really only requires talent. Her skills are impressive so she has that as an optional career.
My other daughter, earned her AA as a high schooler. She was tired of school so after graduating, she landed herself a job on a production line earning around $9. an hour plus loads of overtime. It didn't take much of that for her to decide she'd rather be back in college. She hasn't decided on what she wants to study yet, but she's decided to aim towards some form of college required career. Time will tell. =)
Hope this helps you some.
Good luck!
Vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I dropped out of a lousy high school, took my GED, and went on to have a wonderful life. I, too, thought having a GED was a negative, and oh way back then, many jobs looked at me is if 'I was less then' because of the GED. Then I landed a job as a Police/Fire/Rescue Dispatcher. Being a government agency, they couldn't hold the GED High School Diploma as less then a regular high school diploma. It didn't take long for them to see me as a very smart young lady and it was pointed out that the city I was working for, would pay for me to go to college. Since an AA degree would jump up my pay, and college would be paid for, I went back to school while working the midnight shift, and earned my degree.
After a long career in Law Enforcement, moving into Records then Liasion for the city, I moved on to other things. Mainly, I was afforded a few years as a stay at home mom with my youngest child. (I'd say one of the best jobs ever!) Times got hard after the stock market crash in the late 90's so it was time to go back to work. I landed a job working for the Federal government. My 'degree' never came into play. What did was A) Not having a criminal background and B) passing the test. I had no knowledge of the job I was seeking prior to seeking it. I had to learn, which I did, passing the test with high scores on the first round.
Years later, I'm now the supervisor, in a professional position, making a decent income. Sure, many times people with degrees apply to my office and when there's an opening, we hire. The degree (if it's in our field of work) just means they already 'should' know what we do. It's been found, the higher the degree, the more trouble they are. (Four years = good ~ master = pain in the ass) Anyway, the last few hired only had GED's but they worked their butts off to pass the required tests and they continue to learn everything they can making them wonderful employees. Some of my employees had military backgrounds, some college, some just GED's. What I love about this place is, the older fellows genuinely like the younger folk and have shared their wealth of knowledge with them so my 'newbies' become seasoned fast. Everyone here is really happy and the team spirit makes coming to work a positive. Pay has nothing to do with education.
Besides all the above, whether you and or your spouse WANTS your kids to go to college, only your kids can make that decision for themselves. Students who go 'because they are forced' just waste the tuition. Students who go because they WANT to be there do well, and there's really not much you can say either way. All you can do is allow your kids to enjoy learning and let them know all the options available to them and assist them in which ever way they choose.
Having a dad, with a career he enjoys, that required a degree, is really enough for them to grasp this concept. In reading what was required to get hired at Blizzard, I found it interesting that some jobs require a degree and others just require talent. If you can do that which they are looking for, they don't really care where nor how you learned it. My oldest is working a professional job while she goes to college to earn her degree in another field. She currently earns around $28 per hour. Once her degree is achieved, she will be lucky to see that as starting pay in her chosen next direction. Also, her hobby is designing costumes for comic cons another field that really only requires talent. Her skills are impressive so she has that as an optional career.
My other daughter, earned her AA as a high schooler. She was tired of school so after graduating, she landed herself a job on a production line earning around $9. an hour plus loads of overtime. It didn't take much of that for her to decide she'd rather be back in college. She hasn't decided on what she wants to study yet, but she's decided to aim towards some form of college required career. Time will tell. =)
Hope this helps you some.
Good luck!
Vicki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Hollems
I LOVED college, did well, and went on to graduate school. And, I think college
was great for me - it helped me think outside the box, exposed me to people I
wouldn't have otherwise met, and opened up opportunities to me (graduate school
at least). But, there are a couple of downsides to college, too. Mostly:
- You may graduate with thousands of dollars in debt that limit your ability to
live freely in the future.
- You may increase the difficulty in finding a job in certain areas (People
don't want to hire college graduates for jobs that don't require it because they
"will leave once they find a better job" - I've heard it many times, and many of
my unemployed friends are struggling with this right now).
- If you aren't ready for college, you might do poorly, limiting your options
for college in the future.
If people decide to become chefs, furniture makers, antique collectors, classic
car restorers (some of our favorite TV right now. . .), artists, explorers, etc.
they would probably be better off doing it without the thousands of dollars of
college debt.
Just my opinion, though. We've done a lot of talking and exploring options (in
our minds) over the years to come to the conclusion that college is ONE option
among many.
Jennifer
was great for me - it helped me think outside the box, exposed me to people I
wouldn't have otherwise met, and opened up opportunities to me (graduate school
at least). But, there are a couple of downsides to college, too. Mostly:
- You may graduate with thousands of dollars in debt that limit your ability to
live freely in the future.
- You may increase the difficulty in finding a job in certain areas (People
don't want to hire college graduates for jobs that don't require it because they
"will leave once they find a better job" - I've heard it many times, and many of
my unemployed friends are struggling with this right now).
- If you aren't ready for college, you might do poorly, limiting your options
for college in the future.
If people decide to become chefs, furniture makers, antique collectors, classic
car restorers (some of our favorite TV right now. . .), artists, explorers, etc.
they would probably be better off doing it without the thousands of dollars of
college debt.
Just my opinion, though. We've done a lot of talking and exploring options (in
our minds) over the years to come to the conclusion that college is ONE option
among many.
Jennifer
melissa maranda
I concur! I have Master's Degree and oodles of certifications, etc. I was bogged down for years with student loans and have never made more than $35,000 here in Iowa. On the other hand, the money is not the priority for me. I have everything I need and want for the most part. I also have many friends who do not have college degrees and make quite a bit more than I do including my ex husband who is a truck driver. I guess it's all relative.
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Melissa-Maranda-Coaching/167302313334605
To: [email protected]
From: bkind28@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:25:10 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
Deb made a great point! I know many teachers who decided teaching wasn't for them. I also know cosmetologists who don't do it because of the hours. I like my job but it doesn't pay well. I don't have a degree but the 3 people who sit with me all do. Guess what? They make the same bad pay but have loans. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Melissa-Maranda-Coaching/167302313334605
To: [email protected]
From: bkind28@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:25:10 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
Deb made a great point! I know many teachers who decided teaching wasn't for them. I also know cosmetologists who don't do it because of the hours. I like my job but it doesn't pay well. I don't have a degree but the 3 people who sit with me all do. Guess what? They make the same bad pay but have loans. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
Is your oldest the 13YO that just won the science competition? And you guys are pretty new to home/unschooling, right?
I agree with those that say don't make an issue out of this now. If you had a kid that was trying to opt out of college for the coming year, or even looking at college in the next year or two, then yes, you might need to figure things out sooner rather than later. But if I'm understanding the ages of your kids, you have time on this one.
I can imagine for a parent who is both relatively new to the ideas of unschooling and who sees a direct, successful path for himself from college to success and happiness in a career, it's not only hard to imagine your kids taking a different path, but it's scary.
When we first started home/unschooling, my husband clearly understood and agreed that traditional school was the wrong place for our oldest, but was very resistant to the idea of homeschooling our middle child rather than sending her to kindergarten. They are very different kids and he wanted her to have the experience and the chance to figure out for herself whether she liked school or not. The problem was we were a whole year away from what would be the start of school. Our going round and round on it wasn't helping anyone.
I finally took a step back and said, "Let's make a list of our goals for her, and then figure out the best way to meet them NOW. And then we can worry about kindergarten when the time comes."
When we made the list with the idea of it being really focusing on what we thought she needed, the pressure of "school" or "not school" was lifted from us both, and we actually started focusing on the child in front of us and what she needed RIGHT THEN instead of on what either of us considered "ideal" a year in the offing.
And to add to what everyone else has said re degrees: I have a degree in a specific field from one of the few accredited degree programs in the country, and exactly two-years into working in the field I decided I really didn't like what is _actually_ entailed in the job or in being "successful" at it, as opposed to the course work I really enjoyed, and then parlayed that experience into a much lower paying occupation. I paid off my last school loans two weeks before my first child was born (and that was with putting my entire salary to it for a solid year) and now am home full-time with the kids.
Now on direct trajectory, there to hear, I never would have met my husband had it not been for the career choice that necessitated a move to NY, but the little I got out of that degree was certainly not worth the money I spent for it.
And my husband has an MBA. A few years ago when he was looking for jobs, everything he was looking at said MBA required. Now some of those same jobs say "BA or equivalent experience required." Things have changed drastically in that regard, even in the last few years.
Good luck,
Angela in NJ
I agree with those that say don't make an issue out of this now. If you had a kid that was trying to opt out of college for the coming year, or even looking at college in the next year or two, then yes, you might need to figure things out sooner rather than later. But if I'm understanding the ages of your kids, you have time on this one.
I can imagine for a parent who is both relatively new to the ideas of unschooling and who sees a direct, successful path for himself from college to success and happiness in a career, it's not only hard to imagine your kids taking a different path, but it's scary.
When we first started home/unschooling, my husband clearly understood and agreed that traditional school was the wrong place for our oldest, but was very resistant to the idea of homeschooling our middle child rather than sending her to kindergarten. They are very different kids and he wanted her to have the experience and the chance to figure out for herself whether she liked school or not. The problem was we were a whole year away from what would be the start of school. Our going round and round on it wasn't helping anyone.
I finally took a step back and said, "Let's make a list of our goals for her, and then figure out the best way to meet them NOW. And then we can worry about kindergarten when the time comes."
When we made the list with the idea of it being really focusing on what we thought she needed, the pressure of "school" or "not school" was lifted from us both, and we actually started focusing on the child in front of us and what she needed RIGHT THEN instead of on what either of us considered "ideal" a year in the offing.
And to add to what everyone else has said re degrees: I have a degree in a specific field from one of the few accredited degree programs in the country, and exactly two-years into working in the field I decided I really didn't like what is _actually_ entailed in the job or in being "successful" at it, as opposed to the course work I really enjoyed, and then parlayed that experience into a much lower paying occupation. I paid off my last school loans two weeks before my first child was born (and that was with putting my entire salary to it for a solid year) and now am home full-time with the kids.
Now on direct trajectory, there to hear, I never would have met my husband had it not been for the career choice that necessitated a move to NY, but the little I got out of that degree was certainly not worth the money I spent for it.
And my husband has an MBA. A few years ago when he was looking for jobs, everything he was looking at said MBA required. Now some of those same jobs say "BA or equivalent experience required." Things have changed drastically in that regard, even in the last few years.
Good luck,
Angela in NJ
melissa maranda
oops, not sure why my daughters facebook page is highlighted at the bottom of my signature on my previous post, it's supposed to be my Life Coaching page.
~melissa
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
To: [email protected]
From: love.gratitude@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:03:53 -0500
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
I concur! I have Master's Degree and oodles of certifications, etc. I was bogged down for years with student loans and have never made more than $35,000 here in Iowa. On the other hand, the money is not the priority for me. I have everything I need and want for the most part. I also have many friends who do not have college degrees and make quite a bit more than I do including my ex husband who is a truck driver. I guess it's all relative.
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Melissa-Maranda-Coaching/167302313334605
To: [email protected]
From: bkind28@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:25:10 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
Deb made a great point! I know many teachers who decided teaching wasn't for them. I also know cosmetologists who don't do it because of the hours. I like my job but it doesn't pay well. I don't have a degree but the 3 people who sit with me all do. Guess what? They make the same bad pay but have loans. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~melissa
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
To: [email protected]
From: love.gratitude@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:03:53 -0500
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
I concur! I have Master's Degree and oodles of certifications, etc. I was bogged down for years with student loans and have never made more than $35,000 here in Iowa. On the other hand, the money is not the priority for me. I have everything I need and want for the most part. I also have many friends who do not have college degrees and make quite a bit more than I do including my ex husband who is a truck driver. I guess it's all relative.
Melissa Maranda, MA
Marriage & Family Therapist
Substance Abuse Specialist
Life Coach
Basic NLP Certified
Unschooling Mama
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Melissa-Maranda-Coaching/167302313334605
To: [email protected]
From: bkind28@...
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:25:10 +0000
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Only read if you have spare time/ not urgent
Deb made a great point! I know many teachers who decided teaching wasn't for them. I also know cosmetologists who don't do it because of the hours. I like my job but it doesn't pay well. I don't have a degree but the 3 people who sit with me all do. Guess what? They make the same bad pay but have loans. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michele
<<<<<How old are your children? I would worry about it less. I would >>let your
Thanks everyone for sharing with me,
Michele
> husband's awareness of the world grow, or not, as his children grow. I wouldn'tThe kids are 10, 12,13. He says things like, 'if you want a good job you have to go to college' then in confidence they say to me they are scared to grow up because they have to go to college or 'flip burgers'. 2 of them are dyslexic and they had a horrible time in school and have only been out for 2 years. This happened a few months back, and the letter yesterday.... I am seeing now why I was so annoyed by his comments. But I definitely stop harassing him. i was planning on picking apart his email and I think I wont. So you saved me from myself LOL
> pick apart his e-mail. I wouldn't harass him to share your opinion.
>
>>>>> There is a thing I've really enjoyed recently. It's the Edge.org World Question for 2011I will check this out. This sounds really interesting!
Thanks everyone for sharing with me,
Michele
Michele
--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
Thanks to all,
Michele
> It doesn't sound like you and your DH are disagreeing so much as >emphasizing different aspects of the same answer. Both of you seem to >start out with not dismissing college but you emphasize that not going >to college may be the choice and he emphasizes going to college.Perhaps that is what I really need to point out. That we are not disagreeing as much as looking at it from different angles. Thank you for that.
>Ahhhh! and part of my unschooling is to let that be OK. still learning over here....
> And he argues like a man. Statements as fact. You take a "let's look >at all the possibilities and discuss it" approach.
Thanks to all,
Michele
Betty
I find the "you earn more money over a lifetime" argument to be invalid for many people. If we are talking about the gap between a retail manager and a vice principal, a RN, or a lawyer, it is valid. If we are talking about the difference between a public school teacher and someone who has spent 30 years working a union job for the phone company, the phone job wins.
I think people use this statistic incorrectly because it doesn't account for the debt that has to be paid back from getting that education. If a person leaves school with $40,000 in debt from earning their bachelor's degree, how much is the bill after interest over many years of paying? How about a doctorate degree? My husband had to take remedial classes when he went back to college and took extra time. He had already gone to college before and graduated (vocational). This year he will hit his aggregate for undergraduate work: $57,500. The year after he is going into his master's program so we will incur another $20,000 in debt. For us, this won't actually kill us because our house is almost paid off! Our cars are already paid off and we don't carry credit card debt. Other folks don't seem to live this way though. (statistically, not just my opinion!) They have car payments, mortgage payments, etc.
Just something to ponder!
I think people use this statistic incorrectly because it doesn't account for the debt that has to be paid back from getting that education. If a person leaves school with $40,000 in debt from earning their bachelor's degree, how much is the bill after interest over many years of paying? How about a doctorate degree? My husband had to take remedial classes when he went back to college and took extra time. He had already gone to college before and graduated (vocational). This year he will hit his aggregate for undergraduate work: $57,500. The year after he is going into his master's program so we will incur another $20,000 in debt. For us, this won't actually kill us because our house is almost paid off! Our cars are already paid off and we don't carry credit card debt. Other folks don't seem to live this way though. (statistically, not just my opinion!) They have car payments, mortgage payments, etc.
Just something to ponder!
Michele
<<<<< let them know all the options available to them and assist them in which ever way they choose.
Yes. It seems that college bound is such a given with DH that sometimes I want to point out that it is not the only way. But yes, it will be their choice and hopefully he will come to respect that too.
I really liked reading all the stories and examples. Thanks everyone. Funny, I never went to college but was making 6 figures when we married. I should be a good example, right? ;-)
Michele
Yes. It seems that college bound is such a given with DH that sometimes I want to point out that it is not the only way. But yes, it will be their choice and hopefully he will come to respect that too.
I really liked reading all the stories and examples. Thanks everyone. Funny, I never went to college but was making 6 figures when we married. I should be a good example, right? ;-)
Michele
Karen Swanay
And I think it's important to remember the following which I offer in a
caring way (please read it with that tone of voice =D )
--- College is NO guarantee of a job
I have a friend with a Master's in a STUPID field [clarification coming for
that qualifier] and 60K dollars in SCHOOL DEBT! Not a job in sight for her.
I have never pressed her for information about the size of the debt relative
to her degree, and I know at least part of it is interest but her degree is
in Recreational Mgmt. Really? There are MANY schools which offer degrees
in fields where there is no reality of reaping the benefits of the cost of
the education. This would be one of them. When I was in college the first
time my degree was going to be MA in English Lit, concentration British Lit
before 1800. I had NO idea what I would do with that degree and I suppose I
never thought about it. I'm just an Anglophile and it was what pleased me
at the time. WTH was I thinking??!! You can't actually get a job with that
degree.
---You can't make your kids care about it if they don't...I went at 19yrs
old and dropped out.
I'm 40 now and working on my Master's in a field I actually want to work
in...not the one I *thought* was for me when I was 20. Additionally, this
time around I'm a 4.0 student...my GPA the first go around was dismal. (And
to tie it in to the first point above, the Masters I will get will allow me
to work for piss poor pay...but I will be getting my PhD and we'll get out
of this terrible place and into a bigger and better market.)
--- A lot of being "successful" now is about who you know...20 yr olds don't
generally know how to network etc and school doesn't teach that. And when
people are young they tend to be dismissed by older people.
--- Pushing your kids to acquire debt of this size is irresponsible.
Yes. I said it. If your kid doesn't want to BE a dentist...but you push
him into school and he goes with whatever tickles his fancy at the time, and
he incurs all that debt only to realize when he matures that he would rather
grow hydroponic vegetables for a living you've just set his ability to be
debt-free back 15 years or more. I don't believe any parent should push
their kid to incur debt of any kind for any reason. It's at the very least
ethically wrong.
--- Your kids might be the apple of YOUR eye but they might not be all that
smart.
That's just a general point which I think it's important to remember when
handing out "parental advice"...we all know adults who are "stupid" or
"ugly" or whatever but you never hear parents say their kids are anything
but THE MOST...(insert attribute here)...EVER!! *We had friends who had a
daughter who was pudgy to put it kindly...but you could tell looking at her
at age 13 that she was going to grow up to be shorter than average and
likely remain either pudgy or just not be pencil thin. She was also very
unattractive measured by convention. SMART as could be and very athletic.
But her mother was always putting her in beauty pageants etc which she
always lost and her mother kept talking about her being a model. I believe
there were issues there for the mother but she wasn't manic about it. She
genuinely believed her kid was drop dead gorgeous. Which I suppose is good
but did all kinds of damage to the child.* Harping about college when your
kids are young may seem like it's instilling the idea for success but it
might just set them up to feel like they failed you when they don't find it
a good fit for whatever reason.
This is really about assumptions, acculturation, and fear. It's also about
a lack of mindfulness (which is almost always unintentional) about what you
say and what others hear. To illustrate this point most clearly, if you say
to a child while they are young "When you grow up and get married..." what
they hear if they don't find that a "fit" for them is "My expectation for
you is heterosexual monogamy." Well what if they are gay? The message is
so damaging to a person! "Who you are will never be OK to me. Be what I
expect or risk my rejection." It's pressure they do not need to bear. The
pressure to "be" and fit into the cultural ideal is damaging to all of us
because there isn't one of us who actual does fit it in all ways.
IDK how old your kids are but it might just be time to have a quiet
discussion with your husband and come at it from the idea of pressure and
debt etc...not a dismissal of his point of view as wrong and yours as right
but more of a "How do we as parents want to best nurture and care for our
childrens' spirits and mental health?" And be prepared to listen to him
speak and hear what he says in a mindful way. What he is saying to you is
reflecting his hopes, dreams and fears not only for your children but likely
for himself.
Karen
That the very delusion which drove me to a death-loving desperation should
so suddenly vanish would seem to indicate that many a suicide might be averted
if the person contemplating it could find the proper assistance when
such a crisis
impends. ~ A Mind That Found Itself by Clifford Whittingham Beers
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
caring way (please read it with that tone of voice =D )
--- College is NO guarantee of a job
I have a friend with a Master's in a STUPID field [clarification coming for
that qualifier] and 60K dollars in SCHOOL DEBT! Not a job in sight for her.
I have never pressed her for information about the size of the debt relative
to her degree, and I know at least part of it is interest but her degree is
in Recreational Mgmt. Really? There are MANY schools which offer degrees
in fields where there is no reality of reaping the benefits of the cost of
the education. This would be one of them. When I was in college the first
time my degree was going to be MA in English Lit, concentration British Lit
before 1800. I had NO idea what I would do with that degree and I suppose I
never thought about it. I'm just an Anglophile and it was what pleased me
at the time. WTH was I thinking??!! You can't actually get a job with that
degree.
---You can't make your kids care about it if they don't...I went at 19yrs
old and dropped out.
I'm 40 now and working on my Master's in a field I actually want to work
in...not the one I *thought* was for me when I was 20. Additionally, this
time around I'm a 4.0 student...my GPA the first go around was dismal. (And
to tie it in to the first point above, the Masters I will get will allow me
to work for piss poor pay...but I will be getting my PhD and we'll get out
of this terrible place and into a bigger and better market.)
--- A lot of being "successful" now is about who you know...20 yr olds don't
generally know how to network etc and school doesn't teach that. And when
people are young they tend to be dismissed by older people.
--- Pushing your kids to acquire debt of this size is irresponsible.
Yes. I said it. If your kid doesn't want to BE a dentist...but you push
him into school and he goes with whatever tickles his fancy at the time, and
he incurs all that debt only to realize when he matures that he would rather
grow hydroponic vegetables for a living you've just set his ability to be
debt-free back 15 years or more. I don't believe any parent should push
their kid to incur debt of any kind for any reason. It's at the very least
ethically wrong.
--- Your kids might be the apple of YOUR eye but they might not be all that
smart.
That's just a general point which I think it's important to remember when
handing out "parental advice"...we all know adults who are "stupid" or
"ugly" or whatever but you never hear parents say their kids are anything
but THE MOST...(insert attribute here)...EVER!! *We had friends who had a
daughter who was pudgy to put it kindly...but you could tell looking at her
at age 13 that she was going to grow up to be shorter than average and
likely remain either pudgy or just not be pencil thin. She was also very
unattractive measured by convention. SMART as could be and very athletic.
But her mother was always putting her in beauty pageants etc which she
always lost and her mother kept talking about her being a model. I believe
there were issues there for the mother but she wasn't manic about it. She
genuinely believed her kid was drop dead gorgeous. Which I suppose is good
but did all kinds of damage to the child.* Harping about college when your
kids are young may seem like it's instilling the idea for success but it
might just set them up to feel like they failed you when they don't find it
a good fit for whatever reason.
This is really about assumptions, acculturation, and fear. It's also about
a lack of mindfulness (which is almost always unintentional) about what you
say and what others hear. To illustrate this point most clearly, if you say
to a child while they are young "When you grow up and get married..." what
they hear if they don't find that a "fit" for them is "My expectation for
you is heterosexual monogamy." Well what if they are gay? The message is
so damaging to a person! "Who you are will never be OK to me. Be what I
expect or risk my rejection." It's pressure they do not need to bear. The
pressure to "be" and fit into the cultural ideal is damaging to all of us
because there isn't one of us who actual does fit it in all ways.
IDK how old your kids are but it might just be time to have a quiet
discussion with your husband and come at it from the idea of pressure and
debt etc...not a dismissal of his point of view as wrong and yours as right
but more of a "How do we as parents want to best nurture and care for our
childrens' spirits and mental health?" And be prepared to listen to him
speak and hear what he says in a mindful way. What he is saying to you is
reflecting his hopes, dreams and fears not only for your children but likely
for himself.
Karen
That the very delusion which drove me to a death-loving desperation should
so suddenly vanish would seem to indicate that many a suicide might be averted
if the person contemplating it could find the proper assistance when
such a crisis
impends. ~ A Mind That Found Itself by Clifford Whittingham Beers
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debra Rossing
Just watching the latest episode of Master Chef - one of the people quit her job in a large law firm (she's a lawyer) because it was sucking her dry when her real passion is food. I knew a kid in high school who went to a prestigious college, got an engineering degree, had a bit of a breakdown and last I heard was a chef. Heck, my college degree is basically obsolete at this point (a business/information systems degree from 1983 - the IBM PC was just breaking into society and today's cell phones have more power than NASA had back then). The key thing from all my schooling (K-college) that has stood me in good stead is learning how to learn, how to find the answers, not in having memorized a bunch of data. Fortunately, back then in the 'stone age', my school teachers encouraged that process of seeking answers and finding resources, not just totally rote learning to pass standardized tests (which there was a lot less of).
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb R
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mastercam.com
**********************************************************************
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ncg30
Yes, I got a bachelor's degree too back in 1991 - in accounting and finance. I did work in an accounting firm and a credit department briefly making up to $35,000 and then decided to be a stay at home mom. I never really liked accounting/finance but had to pick a major ultimately - I changed my major 3 times in college.
I honestly don't see how at 18 years old you can really know exactly what you want to do for the rest of your life - considering you may work until you are 70 or maybe older. I:m sure there are some lucky
ones that will know what they want to do at 18 but not many. Or maybe
they think they know what they want to do (or what their parents are
pushing them to do) but it turns out they really don't like it after all. You have time to think about it and figure it out and who says you can't go to college when you are a little older and maybe really know what it is you want to pursue after getting some life experience or having a job in which you discover something you love or something you really want to pursue.
Did I have fun at college - yes, alot! But I came from a fairly
strict upbringing so college was my time to just go and have fun and party. Somehow I still got decent grades too. But my husband never went to college and makes a lot more than I ever did after college and probably more than I would if I went back to work now full time. Just my two cents :)
Noelle
I honestly don't see how at 18 years old you can really know exactly what you want to do for the rest of your life - considering you may work until you are 70 or maybe older. I:m sure there are some lucky
ones that will know what they want to do at 18 but not many. Or maybe
they think they know what they want to do (or what their parents are
pushing them to do) but it turns out they really don't like it after all. You have time to think about it and figure it out and who says you can't go to college when you are a little older and maybe really know what it is you want to pursue after getting some life experience or having a job in which you discover something you love or something you really want to pursue.
Did I have fun at college - yes, alot! But I came from a fairly
strict upbringing so college was my time to just go and have fun and party. Somehow I still got decent grades too. But my husband never went to college and makes a lot more than I ever did after college and probably more than I would if I went back to work now full time. Just my two cents :)
Noelle
--- In [email protected], Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> Just watching the latest episode of Master Chef - one of the people quit her job in a large law firm (she's a lawyer) because it was sucking her dry when her real passion is food. I knew a kid in high school who went to a prestigious college, got an engineering degree, had a bit of a breakdown and last I heard was a chef. Heck, my college degree is basically obsolete at this point (a business/information systems degree from 1983 - the IBM PC was just breaking into society and today's cell phones have more power than NASA had back then). The key thing from all my schooling (K-college) that has stood me in good stead is learning how to learn, how to find the answers, not in having memorized a bunch of data. Fortunately, back then in the 'stone age', my school teachers encouraged that process of seeking answers and finding resources, not just totally rote learning to pass standardized tests (which there was a lot less of).
>
> Deb R
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mastercam.com
> **********************************************************************
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
The problem with statistics is they don't give a clue as to the
choices and pressures that caused people to fall into the categories
they do.
Statistically speaking, blacks in America are more violent and more
prone to criminal behavior. *Does* that mean blacks are genetically
more violent and criminal?? Or are there more important factors those
statistics are masking? (Wikipedia has an interesting article on the
misuse of statistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics)
What *other* factors besides a college degree might account for people
with college degrees earning more?
One big factor is that people who have been ground down by the school
system don't choose to go onto college. They come out of public school
believing they're failures. Or that school is stupid.
It's far more likely that someone who believes they don't have what it
takes to succeed in college will not aim their career sites very high
and won't be making much money. They're far more likely to believe
they're not cut out for anything other than the lowest paying jobs.
It's not the college degree that counts as much as the self
confidence. Self-confidence, the drive to pursue what you love,
accounts for most of the people who have made a lot of money even
without college degrees. People in college aren't self-confident
because they're in college. They're in college because they have (a
certain degree of) self confidence. Without self confidence, people
don't get very far. And school is really good at killing self
confidence.
Unfortunately what the college degree = more earning potential has
come to mean is that college is like a magic formula. People believe
college will give kids what they need to succeed, when really what
kids need to succeed is what gets them into college. But people are
believing that kids should just do the magic ritual of 4 years of
learning and they'll get more money. But that is becoming less and
less true. College is becoming expected but not everyone learns best
that way. There are loads of kids in college who are occupying seats
to get the piece of paper to get more money. (My husband teaches lots
of them ;-) Kids are coming out with degrees but no desire to continue
what they've been studying. Because it hasn't been about learning.
It's been about the magic piece of paper.
Yes, some corporations definitely do weed out applicants by degrees,
making it nearly impossible to get certain jobs with those
corporations if you don't have a college degree. Not necessarily
because jobs require it but as a way to eliminate applicants they
shouldn't waste their time on. While some doors will be closed, that
doesn't affect the 10's of thousands of other similar doors that are
open. Smaller companies are much more willing to look at abilities.
And of course there's always working for yourself! (Worked for Bill
Gates ;-)
I would bet most of the higher paying jobs do require a college degree
or experience. That's because those jobs require a certain level of
technical knowledge (or the ability to acquire it) which a degree
(supposedly) indicates someone has. But is it the degree or the desire
to acquire the technical knowledge that gets them the job?
I used to say "I have a degree in engineering" as a way to explain why
I approach problems so logically. But that's not true. I have a degree
in electrical engineering *because* I approach problems logically. I
was born an engineer! ;-) I was born with the desire to pursue how and
why things work. I absorbed that kind of knowledge all through my
childhood. While my degree allowed me to get the job I had, it was the
*desire* to pursue engineering that made me want to go onto college,
made me want that type of job.
One of the big disadvantages of school is that if kids don't go right
onto college after high school, it's less likely they will later. Not
because there's a narrow window of needing to enter college between 17
and 18 for it to work! It's because kids are *so* burned out by 12+
years of school that they need *years* before that fades enough for
college to seem less like more torture.
I suspect your husband is seeing college looming in 4 years and your
son needs to start preparing now. But unschooled kids have a *huge*
advantage there. They don't need to go to college at 17. They can
wait. They can continue their pursuing interests with jobs :-)
Fortunately it's no longer looked down on or seen as disloyalty to
change jobs. And those who have worked, been out in the world finding
what they love to do, look *way* more attractive to colleges than kids
who come only with same old same old transcript with a bunch of letter
grades. Colleges love older students. Older students are there because
they *want* to be not because it's more hoops they're supposed to jump
through to get a job.
Joyce
choices and pressures that caused people to fall into the categories
they do.
Statistically speaking, blacks in America are more violent and more
prone to criminal behavior. *Does* that mean blacks are genetically
more violent and criminal?? Or are there more important factors those
statistics are masking? (Wikipedia has an interesting article on the
misuse of statistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics)
What *other* factors besides a college degree might account for people
with college degrees earning more?
One big factor is that people who have been ground down by the school
system don't choose to go onto college. They come out of public school
believing they're failures. Or that school is stupid.
It's far more likely that someone who believes they don't have what it
takes to succeed in college will not aim their career sites very high
and won't be making much money. They're far more likely to believe
they're not cut out for anything other than the lowest paying jobs.
It's not the college degree that counts as much as the self
confidence. Self-confidence, the drive to pursue what you love,
accounts for most of the people who have made a lot of money even
without college degrees. People in college aren't self-confident
because they're in college. They're in college because they have (a
certain degree of) self confidence. Without self confidence, people
don't get very far. And school is really good at killing self
confidence.
Unfortunately what the college degree = more earning potential has
come to mean is that college is like a magic formula. People believe
college will give kids what they need to succeed, when really what
kids need to succeed is what gets them into college. But people are
believing that kids should just do the magic ritual of 4 years of
learning and they'll get more money. But that is becoming less and
less true. College is becoming expected but not everyone learns best
that way. There are loads of kids in college who are occupying seats
to get the piece of paper to get more money. (My husband teaches lots
of them ;-) Kids are coming out with degrees but no desire to continue
what they've been studying. Because it hasn't been about learning.
It's been about the magic piece of paper.
Yes, some corporations definitely do weed out applicants by degrees,
making it nearly impossible to get certain jobs with those
corporations if you don't have a college degree. Not necessarily
because jobs require it but as a way to eliminate applicants they
shouldn't waste their time on. While some doors will be closed, that
doesn't affect the 10's of thousands of other similar doors that are
open. Smaller companies are much more willing to look at abilities.
And of course there's always working for yourself! (Worked for Bill
Gates ;-)
I would bet most of the higher paying jobs do require a college degree
or experience. That's because those jobs require a certain level of
technical knowledge (or the ability to acquire it) which a degree
(supposedly) indicates someone has. But is it the degree or the desire
to acquire the technical knowledge that gets them the job?
I used to say "I have a degree in engineering" as a way to explain why
I approach problems so logically. But that's not true. I have a degree
in electrical engineering *because* I approach problems logically. I
was born an engineer! ;-) I was born with the desire to pursue how and
why things work. I absorbed that kind of knowledge all through my
childhood. While my degree allowed me to get the job I had, it was the
*desire* to pursue engineering that made me want to go onto college,
made me want that type of job.
One of the big disadvantages of school is that if kids don't go right
onto college after high school, it's less likely they will later. Not
because there's a narrow window of needing to enter college between 17
and 18 for it to work! It's because kids are *so* burned out by 12+
years of school that they need *years* before that fades enough for
college to seem less like more torture.
I suspect your husband is seeing college looming in 4 years and your
son needs to start preparing now. But unschooled kids have a *huge*
advantage there. They don't need to go to college at 17. They can
wait. They can continue their pursuing interests with jobs :-)
Fortunately it's no longer looked down on or seen as disloyalty to
change jobs. And those who have worked, been out in the world finding
what they love to do, look *way* more attractive to colleges than kids
who come only with same old same old transcript with a bunch of letter
grades. Colleges love older students. Older students are there because
they *want* to be not because it's more hoops they're supposed to jump
through to get a job.
Joyce
Michele
Thank you all for the help. Joyce, the self confidence part Really helped.
I was getting a bit scared- thinking about the kids' future and trying to make sure I do everything I can to make sure they will be happy, successful, fulfilled, on and on as adults. And of course college is in that worry loop.
If college comes across as an expectation it would be easy for them to think we are disappointed in them if they don't choose to go.
Anyway, again I thank all of you for the responses. Much clearer in MY head now.
Michele
I was getting a bit scared- thinking about the kids' future and trying to make sure I do everything I can to make sure they will be happy, successful, fulfilled, on and on as adults. And of course college is in that worry loop.
If college comes across as an expectation it would be easy for them to think we are disappointed in them if they don't choose to go.
Anyway, again I thank all of you for the responses. Much clearer in MY head now.
Michele
racheltomassone
I would reccomend reading the book Secrets of a Buccaneer Scholar By: James Marcus Bach. I heard him speak at an unschoolers conference in Ohio a few weeks ago! He is amazing and his book may answer some questions for you...or just add some insight. He also has a website that is great!! He did not go to college! Hope this helps, Rachel
--- In [email protected], "Michele" <michelewith3@...> wrote:
>
> You all are such a wealth of inspiration and so thought provoking. I have this letter (below) and was wondering if anyone wants to help me pick it apart. It is from my husband. He and I go back and forth about college. I am not against college at all and I have forwarded him many of the articles that were previously discussed here about zero free tuition and options..... I don't know, I just want college to be an option, not a 'if you want a good job' type of thing. He went to college for his field and is Very successful and Loves what he does. So he is pretty firm about it.
> I will be fine if no one writes, Honest! :-) But if anyone wants to throw in a comment or two I would be pretty grateful.
>
> this is the letter************************************************************************
>
> College grads in general make a lot more money than non college grads. No question.
> Why is that? Because the people going to college (in general) have a goal / a motivation of having a good job or better than average job to make better than average money. In general .. people that don't want to go to college are less motivated about having a good job that pays well. Being less motivated equals less money. IN GENERAL
>
> College grads have more opportunities available to them. No question.
>
> College grads have more doors put in front of them to be opened. College students will hear of jobs that they have never heard before = more "doors" = more opportunities.
>
> College grads have shown that they can complete projects and classes to a successful graduation. Completing assignments and a diploma is important for many business owners.
>
> The statistics about College Grads vs. Non College Grads is looking at the General Population. No question that most people that don't go to college make much much less money. No question. I would even say that the 40% of college dropouts do better than the population that didn't even try to go to college. AGAIN .. for the only reason of motivation. They are slightly more motivated than the others to earn more money. IN GENERAL.
>
>
> The question is can someone become successful or have a decent career without a college education absolutely. They need to be jazzed about something, motivated and want to continually learn and improve. College isn't the ONLY way but no one should fool themselves into dismissing college altogether.
>
>
> For people that just want to earn 50,000 or less per year they have to think about how they can afford a family, vacations, healthcare, retirement, cloths, food, cars etc. Just doing what you want to do, following your passion DOES NOT automatically mean happiness.
>
>
> ****************
>
Sacha Davis
Letting go of MY version of my kids future has been a big part of the process for me. It's not easy and it's scary, but I feel to do this I have to say to myself, "it's okay if my kid doesn't go to college," "it's okay if my kid reads when he's twelve," and so on. The more I work through this in my mind the more it feels okay, because I have a strong conviction, a gut feeling, that this is truly the best for my children. Now sometimes when I think it through I think of the bright side, "if s/he doesn't go to college, at least s/he won't be saddle with all this debt," and if they do make that decision, I'll know it's because they really want to. How awesome is that!!!!!
S.
__________________________________
Sacha (40), mommy to Finn (4) & Zivia (0) and wife to Megan (38)
Livin' la vida loca in Georgetown, Seattle
S.
__________________________________
Sacha (40), mommy to Finn (4) & Zivia (0) and wife to Megan (38)
Livin' la vida loca in Georgetown, Seattle
On Jun 10, 2011, at 10:09 AM, Michele wrote:
>
>
> Thank you all for the help. Joyce, the self confidence part Really helped.
>
> I was getting a bit scared- thinking about the kids' future and trying to make sure I do everything I can to make sure they will be happy, successful, fulfilled, on and on as adults. And of course college is in that worry loop.
>
> If college comes across as an expectation it would be easy for them to think we are disappointed in them if they don't choose to go.
>
> Anyway, again I thank all of you for the responses. Much clearer in MY head now.
>
> Michele
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hanna
"and if they do make that decision, I'll know it's because they really want to. How awesome is that!!!!!"
That is indeed awsome, Sacha.
Honesty is so undervalued, yet so crucial.
Thanks, for the reminder.
Hanna
That is indeed awsome, Sacha.
Honesty is so undervalued, yet so crucial.
Thanks, for the reminder.
Hanna