Jessica

Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.

Schuyler

At 3.5 his ability to understand your words is probably relatively limited.
Anything that you are having to repeat over and over again is probably something
that you may just want to assume he isn't yet ready to grasp. Doing is better
than talking. Look for ways to help him to feel better. You are calling it
defiance, presumably something that he wants to do that you don't want him to
do. If you can, figure out ways to help him do what he wants to do. Figure out
ways to say yes more. If you can't say yes in that particular moment, look for
other things that may entertain him right then and there, and try and come up
with ways to say yes to what he wanted later. So, for example, he wants to paint
on the walls and you don't want him to. Maybe you could help him paint on paper
in the moment, or go outside and draw on chalk on the sidewalk or the side of
the house and then have fun washing it off with soapy water later. Maybe you
could even find some washable paints and paint the walls and wash them off
later. Or draw and paint on a wall that you were planning on redecorating
anyhow. Or get paints for in the bath and use them in that moment.


It helps when someone is 3.5 to feed them little things throughout the day.
Hunger is a big contributing factor to mood. Being hungry can make you pretty
grouchy. Eating can make you less so. Being sleepy can make you grouchy, look
for clues that your son is tired and respond with things like cuddling up to
read or watch a movie or do something quiet and calming. Try not to overplan
days, try not to do a lot of things at a go. There was advice in Dr. Spocks book
on childcare that I still remember about walking with a young child to anywhere.
Don't expect to get there with any kind of speed. Go with the expectation that
the journey will be longer than the errand could possibly take. Plan your days
on a slower schedule with a young child.


Schuyler




________________________________
From: Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 20 May, 2011 11:56:24
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] curbing behavior

Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts
I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling
in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is
reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been
parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and
frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse
it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach
but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried
talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond
irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

I can COMPLETELY understand your feelings, as I am in the same boat. I am not even sure I will be able to relax from textbooks to get to unschooling, as I am a pretty uptight person. I have a perfectionist personality with myself, so I feel I should get things done more efficiently, faster, etc. So I find myself to be crabby with defiant kids--not that mine are at all times, but I think we all (even adults) have defiant moments. I also feel so rushed, due to some circumstances with two of the kids being disabled, another being very involved in outside-of-the-home activities. I have to say, too, that I find it frustrating with the people who allow their kids to continually expect deep explanations of why they have to do something. I have never had an employer or anybody in authority let me do that...some things you just have to do. I don't know how to get to the point of relaxing enough and knowing when to let the kids keep asking for explanations, or when to let them keep "playing" me to delay the inevitable that they have to get done.

Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all my kids constantly do this. But I know that I have allowed them far more room to do this in the past, and am struggling, as you stated, to reverse this trend.

Heidi
--- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 20, 2011, at 6:56 AM, Jessica wrote:

> if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is
> reverseable.

Behavior is also genetic. If he inherited a short temper and you react
with a short temper, that's obviously not a great combo!

He can pick up skills as he gets older and from you on how to respond
to his feelings, but the feelings probably came from your genes!


> I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5
> year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/
> asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond
> irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing
> something.

It's frustrating because you're trying to control something that isn't
controllable. (Or not controllable without damaging your relationship.)

Rather than trying to change him, be his comforting environment. Be
gentle because you value gentleness not because you want to change who
he is.

He *will* change. He can't help it. He'll get older. He'll pick up new
things from the world. The opportunity you have is to create a gentle
environment for him to do that in. Don't see his behavior as about
you. See it as entirely about him and him wanting to meet needs that
he may not understand in a world that isn't geared to kids meeting
their own needs. Now *that's* frustration!

Where you're heading down the wrong path is in expecting him to
change. *Be* his change. Trust that he's doing his best right now. If
he can't do what you're asking, rethink what you're asking! Do it for
him. Change the environment. Find the yes. Move him to a new
environment. Distract him.

Children can't be defiant unless you've set up barriers. See what he's
doing as trying to meet a need. When he's "defying" you he's realizing
you won't help him meet the need so is trying to do it himself. Help
him. Is what he wants really a no? That's something unschooling
parents need to question a lot! Is it a real no or just a no because
it's inconvenient? Think about needing a glass of water you can't
reach and someone you trust to help blows you off because it's too
much trouble for them. If it's a real no -- like wanting to touch
something delicate of yours -- find a way to help him explore it
safely, or distract him with something even better,or find an even
better substitute. (And then put the temptation out of sight.) Set him
up for success rather than failure. Think outside the box. Look for
the yes.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

Oh, I meant to pass this along:

THE DAILY GROOVE ~ by Scott Noelle
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

Every day, very short, very succinct points. They can help you turn
thinking away from fixing kids to being their partners.

Joyce

plaidpanties666

"Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
>
>I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable.
*******************

Yes! It will take some time and a kind of "deschooling" though as you and your child learn a new way of getting along. You'll be learning some new skills and they'll feel awkward and creaky at first, so go slowly. Don't try to change everything at once or you'll end up feeling frustrated and like you can't Possibly ever get the hang of things. Small steps.

>>I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating.
******************

It helps to step back from the idea of "defiant". Behavior is a kind of communication. If your son is saying "No" to you, that's something think about - what Else is he trying to tell you. Little children can find the world a veeeerrrry frustrating place - everything is too big, too hard, too complicated. Actively look for ways to make your child's life easier. That sounds strange, maybe, but a lot of that "defiance" is his way of telling you how frustrated he is with the big, overwhelming world.

It can help, too, to see your own frustration in your child's defiance. Most adults find the world overwhelming from time to time ;) so be gentle with him. Many many unschooling parents report that by giving kids the kindness and consideration they didn't get, themselves, they get a chance to heal from their own childhood woes.

>My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child

I don't want to say modelling has no effects, but if he's biologically your child, he may have a naturally shorter fuse - and you may, too. It may be natural for you Both to frustrate easily. So be gentle with Both your feelings. That isn't to say its okay to haul off and throw temper tantrums at your child, but realize that you'll be learning better skills to help both of you.

Learning to be proactive - to think ahead and set your child up for success - is one of the most valuable things any parent can learn. It lessens your overall stress in a big way and that will help with a short fuse! So looking for ways to make your child's life easier is a good place to start.

>I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated
***************

Stop repeating long before then and Do something. What are you saying/asking? Can you do it yourself? Rather than "shut the door, please shut the door, I'd appreciate it if you'd shut the door..." go shut the door. That's a simplistic example - if you'd like to describe a common occurance in your home, folks here can help you brainstorm better options than asking/saying until you blow your top. It takes awhile to get the hang of this, as I said, and be able to think of other options.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 20, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Heidi wrote:

> I am not even sure I will be able to relax from textbooks to get to
> unschooling, as I am a pretty uptight person. I have a perfectionist
> personality with myself, so I feel I should get things done more
> efficiently, faster, etc.

Those can all be overcome or worked around if you want what
unschooling has to offer enough. That's pretty important! If someone's
understanding of unschooling is vague and surfacy -- like unschooling
sounds like really really relaxed homeschooling -- that doesn't touch
on the great benefits that come from unschooling.

You can ask :-) Ask how others have managed to make unschooling work
with that kind of personality.

> So I find myself to be crabby with defiant kids

What are you giving them to be defiant about?

> but I think we all (even adults) have defiant moments.

Defiance is the act of the powerless towards those with all the power.

If adults are being "defiant" it's because they grew up constantly
reminded they had no power and needed to obey. How does an environment
like that help people become adults who recognize their power to
change what they want to change?

I spent about my first 40 years quietly thinking "Why don't they fix
that?" about various things in life that bothered me. FInally it
struck me that if I wanted change, I needed to be the one making the
changes. It's some mighty ingrained thinking that takes 40 years to
throw off!

Radical unschooling is about helping kids find (safe, respectful,
kind, etc.) ways to do what they're trying to do. It's about
empowering them to see obstacles in their paths not as insurmountable
but as problems that can be tackled.

> I have to say, too, that I find it frustrating with the people who
> allow their kids to continually expect deep explanations of why they
> have to do something.

This is a very conventional view of kids where the world is divided
into people and kids. Kids are seen as lesser beings. Less deserving.
Less whole.

While kids aren't adults, they are people who respond to their needs
being treated with respect. Their needs are different. Their
understanding of the world is different. But their needs are no less
important to them than adult needs are to the adults.

But here's a thought: If kids need deep explanations of why they need
to do something, maybe it's not as needed as the parents think. So
much of parenting is done just because that's what everyone does. 3
meals a day. Brush teeth twice a day. Don't wear the same clothes two
days in a row. 3 hours of TV is too much. Put your toys away.

All those things are worthy of being questioned. If you're giving
adult reasons to kids -- who have a very different view of the world
-- it's likely they aren't going to get why those reasons are
important. And they won't until they're adults.

Pretty much my whole site revolves around helping parents see through
their kids understanding of the world. The goal is to help parents
move into their kids world to communicate in ways kids will understand
rather than trying to drag kids into an adult world they can't
understand until they're adults.

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

> I have never had an employer or anybody in authority let me do
> that...some things you just have to do.

An employer is paying you to do a job. It's nice when they can explain
but they don't owe it to an employee. (But I think it's good for
employees to question if something seems immoral or unethical.)

The big difference is that you can choose to quit a job if you feel
uncomfortable with the way you're treated. I child can't quit.

Laws are intended to make sense. If they don't make sense, people can
set about getting them changed.

> I don't know how to get to the point of relaxing enough

You could ask :-) Ask how other people have let go.

A lot of people come here and confess they don't know if they can do
something and don't know how but then don't ask. It's like they assume
they should just be able to figure it out on their own.

I'd never thought of this before, but I bet that attitude is a product
of conventional parenting (and perhaps schooling). Kids are told
"Don't do that," but then aren't helped to work on better choices and
better solutions. They're abandoned with the assumption that they need
to figure it out on their own or their wrong.

That's probably deeply ingrained in a lot of us.

With radical unschooling, kids aren't left to figure things out.
They're helped as much as *they* need. It's always assumed they're
doing the best they can. if they aren't doing as well as mom needs or
expects, then the kid needs help. And will continue to need help until
they do it themselves.

> I don't know how to get to the point of relaxing enough and knowing
> when to let the kids keep asking for explanations, or when to let
> them keep "playing" me to delay the inevitable that they have to get
> done.

What if your husband wrote to a list of husbands "I don't know how to
get to the point of relaxing enough and knowing when to let my wife
keep asking for explanations, or when to let her keep "playing" me to
delay the inevitable that she has to get done."?

Does it sound at all respectful? Can't you feel the hold he has on
control and the deep division between you?

So, what "has to" get done?

Try here:

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

> Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all my kids constantly
> do this.

No, but it's a big part of how you view them. It colors all your
interactions with them.

> But I know that I have allowed them far more room to do this in the
> past, and am struggling, as you stated, to reverse this trend.

If you describe what you're working on, fresh eyes can help you see
where you might be getting in your own way and fighting against what
you're trying to do.

> I can COMPLETELY understand your feelings, as I am in the same boat.


This is meant as an observation of typical human behavior. It's part
of our society to let someone know they aren't alone and that others
are suffering through the same thing too.

It's comforting to know we're not alone. But finding fellow sufferers
can help us feel more comfortable in the difficult situation. If it's
a situation we can't change that's great! It's what helps people
survive concentration camps and cancer and the death of a loved one.
But if it's a situation that *can* be changed, that support can help
people not work to fix the situation. We *need* to feel uncomfortable
to change. Change is hard! Change often makes things messy before it
makes things better.

I'm not suggesting anyone stop giving sympathy but it's good to be
aware that sympathy alone can be worse than no sympathy at all.
Sympathy with ideas on how to move forward is best of all.

Joyce

Kelly Lovejoy

Yes. We didn't start unschooling/gentle parenting until our now-23 year old was 13. Of course, the sooner you change, the sooner you'll see results and the sooner you can enjoy each other more.


But DEFINITELY possible!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...>
To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, May 20, 2011 3:13 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] curbing behavior


Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts
I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling
in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is
reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been
parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and
frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse
it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach
but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried
talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond
irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

"Heidi" <hotcoolings@...> wrote:
>I have a perfectionist personality with myself, so I feel I should get things done more efficiently, faster, etc.
*****************

That was a big one for me - in fact I still sometimes struggle when I have the most wonderful, perfect idea how to accomplish something that I just Know will work well for everyone in the family... if only they'd jump on board, darnit!

What has helped me is to re-evaluate what I mean by "efficient". It's not efficient if it generates resentment and resistance in someone else. It's not efficient if I get bogged down "explaining" why my way is the best. Stopping to pay attention to what my kids want and think and feel often *is* more efficient in terms of the amount of energy it takes to get something done. The payback for time and attention and kindness is fantastic!

>>I also feel so rushed, due to some circumstances with two of the kids being disabled, another being very involved in outside-of-the-home activities.
*******************

This was something that got better when I stepped away from my old ideas of efficiency. Plan more time into all your transitions - time to do but also time to connect and time to be. It *seems* inefficient if you ignore things like emotional needs, but it doesn't work out that way because emotional needs will come into play at inconvenient times (when you're tired, hungry, rushed etc your emotional reserves are lower) and shatter your illusions of efficiency.

>>I have to say, too, that I find it frustrating with the people who allow their kids to continually expect deep explanations of why they have to do something.
************************

Not all kids want big, deep explanations and will tune them out. But children who don't get enough attention will sometimes clamor for more explanations as a way of getting attention! So its important to Give that attention, to meet the real need so that your child isn't resorting to tactics to get his needs met.

Some kids, though, are passionate to know the whys and/or hows of the world. That's marvelous! but it can be tiring, too. If your child is always asking, asking, asking, look for more resources. Can you show him or her how to use the internet? Rent more movies? Get more channels of tv? Find more playfellows who are old enough to answer alllllll those questions? Other people can be vital resources, especially with a very social child.

>>or when to let them keep "playing" me to delay the inevitable that they have to get done.
*****************

If you are setting up situations where things "have to get done" you will get resistance - but there's really very very little in the world that "has to" be done. There are worlds of options. Parents sometimes use taking care of kids as an example of a "has to" but even there, I parent across a divorce and know just how little "has to" happen. We *choose* to value our childrens' needs and wants, feelings and dreams - its good to see choices in your own life so that you can see the reasoning behind offering choices to children.

If you're concerned about efficiency, take your children out of the housework equation. Seriously, child labor is terribly inefficient and does not guarantee adult proficiency in housekeeping, so drop that. Invite their help, but don't require it - and value they help they give, even when it doesn't meet up to your standards or expectations. I don't mean praise people for doing bad jobs! that's belittling. My 9yo, for instance helps with groceries: she reminds us what to buy, helps pick it out, helps unpack and arrange the groceries. She helps feed the pets and water the plants. She reminds me to do laundry when she's low on clean socks and towels. All of those things are helpful, even if I could think of a hundred other ways she could do better. And so she helps with a happy heart, glad to give what she can to the family - that's way better than clean dishes and made beds ;)

---Meredith

Elizabeth Setaro

Hello! Just read the below and Jessica's post
Really hit home. We are so new to all if this
And I feel as if I am floundering some days and
Somewhat confident others. I think I need to
Be deschooled. Then there is the pressure from
Family, and I oftentimes feel like I am trying
To prove to them how busy we are and what
We have accomplished. On top of it all, we have
Number 2 on the way, so by the fall, I would
Like to have some idea of what we are "doing".
We just pulled out 6 year old out of public kindergarten
In January. With all the snow he wasn't there more than
Two weeks. Since then we have been living life
And going with the flow ... Trying to sort through
Loads of emails and information. Would love to connect
With others.. We live in Watertown.
Thank you,
Elizabeth
Sent from my iPhone

On May 20, 2011, at 1:15 PM, Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:

> Yes. We didn't start unschooling/gentle parenting until our now-23 year old was 13. Of course, the sooner you change, the sooner you'll see results and the sooner you can enjoy each other more.
>
> But DEFINITELY possible!
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> "There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...>
> To: unschoolingbasics <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, May 20, 2011 3:13 am
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] curbing behavior
>
> Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts
> I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling
> in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is
> reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been
> parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and
> frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse
> it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach
> but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried
> talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond
> irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

3.5 years old -- no I don't think it's a total loss yet. :)

Give us a specific example of you being frustrated.

Then we can tell you to let go, slow down, stop caring about whatever it is that you think the 3.5-year-old should care about, etc.

Maybe you don't need to go through all that. Maybe you can think of an example to yourself or stop yourself the next time you start to overreact. And stop yourself.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
>

[email protected]

>Would love to connect
> With others.. We live in...

I want to ask everyone to please, please remember this is an international list. It is therefore not helpful to use the list as a way to connect with others "in your area". Use a local group for that! Folks in the United States are the worst for this, so appologies to everyone else for the diversion.

There are some regional and local lists linked here:
http://sandradodd.com/world

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

Elizabeth Setaro <ers444@...> wrote:
>
> Hello! Just read the below and Jessica's post
> Really hit home. We are so new to all if this
> And I feel as if I am floundering some days and
> Somewhat confident others. I think I need to
> Be deschooled.

Deschooling takes a lot longer for parents than kids, for sure - and you're never really "done". As your kids get older and hit "milestones" that are meaningful to you, personally, you'll find more "stuff" comes up.

That being said, there's a lot that comes with practice. Saying yes more, finding alternatives that work for everyone, remembering to take a deep breath Before you explode... those will all get easier with time and effort. It also gets easier when you start seeing "results" and that's something that's actually easier for parents who pull kids out of school than folks who unschool "from the start". It's a Big Deal to see a kid who has been frustrated and unhappy start to shine again!

I have one of each - a kid who went through homeschooling, school, and then unschooling - and one who has been unschooled "from the start". It helped me when my daughter was little to read stories of families with slightly older kids and see how things work out over time.

>>so by the fall, I would
> Like to have some idea of what we are "doing".

Okay, so here's the catch ;) kids change. And with a second on the way, your circumstances will change in big ways, too. So even if you knew what you are doing right now, that may not help you once the baby gets here - and if everything runs smoothly at first you Still won't know what you're going to be doing once the new baby starts to walk and gets into the older child's stuff. That's a big transitional time, and you'll find yourself deschooling all over again, even if you feel "done".

It has helped me to cultivate a sense of excitement and fascination with the changes in my life, and my kids' lives. I don't know what our family will be like in five years - how could I?

---Meredith

Debra Rossing

>>I have a perfectionist personality with myself, so I feel I should get things done more efficiently, faster, etc.
*****************

I'm a list making efficient type person. But, what I learned when DS was born was that quick and efficient doesn't fly with kids. Yes, I could get to the car much faster if I carried DS BUT he *needs* to walk for his own reasons. So, I slow way down and walk slowly alongside him, make a game of swooping him up over difficult lumpy parts when needed, and generally recognize that his little legs are brand new and just learning to navigate "vertically". He's walking as fast and as well as he can right now. DS is now rapidly approaching 13 and he can run circles around me - I'm the slow one saying "hold up a second!"



So, what to do with the list making efficient "turbo" me? I use it to plan FOR him, not plan HIM. I can track down resources, plan how to access them, make sure the time is free, remind DS and DH of the event scheduled, etc. I use that efficiency to make things smoother for Him, not make him do things more quickly for Me. His speed is not my speed. For that matter, when I go into "turbo shopping mode" even my DH can't keep up (my sister is the only person I've found so far who can keep up with that LOL!)



The image of walking beside a toddler, knowing they're going slowly but doing the best they can, is a good image for unschooling in general - we're walking beside our kids, at their pace, helping when THEY want help, soothing the bumps and scrapes when they inevitable happen, providing information when needed both in word and ACTION - I'm going to walk over this way to avoid that big lumpy hole there.



--Deb R

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Debra Rossing

>Trying to sort through Loads of emails and information. Would love to connect With others.. We live in Watertown.
Elizabeth, I don't know if you realized it but this is an Internationally read list and there are probably a LOT of Watertowns in the world. If you want IRL connections, you might be better served for that on a state unschooling list



--Deb R

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Jessica

I definitely have to admit that part of the problem is me, okay.. much of the problem. I am easily frustrated, irritated, etc. and not just with my son but with many people. I don't handle stress easily and in a way I'm sort of spoiled and like getting my way. But I'm trying to change that. An example of my son driving me insane would be today, for instance, we went to a birthday party and he had a hard time keeping his hands to himself. He was hitting and grabbing and pushing inside the bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop. Or this morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to play while we were still in bed. Mind you, if we lived in a rural area like we plan to this wouldn't be such an issue but right now we live in a townhouse surrounded by lots of people and I just worry about his safety. I know and can admit that some of things I get upset about most people wouldn't. And I have been working on that. My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a million times. I feel myself turning into my mother sometimes with my parenting and I want to steer from that. I have read this group's posts for awhile and read up a little on unschooling and the parenting aspect of it and it totally intrigues me. Some issues that I have are ones I have listed but also my son's father and I are not together so that is sometimes a challenge as he doesn't communicate well with me about our son. My son is a very smart little boy for his age. Very verbal and just very smart in general. Most people think he's 5. He sometimes acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that has to do with the sort of television he has been exposed to at his father's and also the frustration I don't hide very well under stress that worries me too. I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
I hope I didn't ramble on too much but I have seen the great advice many of you have given so I'm hoping someone can help me in the right direction to not only the world of unschooling but to better parenting. thanks!

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>
> 3.5 years old -- no I don't think it's a total loss yet. :)
>
> Give us a specific example of you being frustrated.
>
> Then we can tell you to let go, slow down, stop caring about whatever it is that you think the 3.5-year-old should care about, etc.
>
> Maybe you don't need to go through all that. Maybe you can think of an example to yourself or stop yourself the next time you start to overreact. And stop yourself.
>
> Nance
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
> >
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 21, 2011, at 7:20 PM, Jessica wrote:

> we went to a birthday party and he had a hard time keeping his hands
> to himself. He was hitting and grabbing and pushing inside the
> bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop

Don't keep trying the same thing. If it hasn't worked after the second
time, do something different. Like go in and get him.Or call him to
you to do something else. But take him to something better. It's not a
punishment. It's keeping other kids safe because he can't yet.

Assume he's doing the best he can. If he's not doing the best that
needs done, you need to be the one doing it. And if he's doing the
best he can, then getting frustrated that he's not doing better is
like getting frustrated with someone with a broken leg for not walking.

> Or this morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to
> play while we were still in bed.


If by this you mean you've told him he can't go out and you expected
him to not go out, then the fault was expecting him to not go out when
he needs to! ;-)

Rules are like remote parenting. They're handed to kids like
substitute parents that the kids are supposed to obey when the parents
aren't there. That's not good! Parents shouldn't be remote parenting.
You need to be there with him.

If he gets out, you need locks. Don't expect him to be the locks for
you.

> My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a
> million times.


Be with him more. Be more aware of when he needs redirected. Get to
him before he starts things that you feel you need to tell him to stop
doing. Make sure he has food and drink.

And stop telling him. Scoop him up with a big laugh to distract him.
Or tell him "Let's go get some ice cream!" Just get in there before he
reaches his limit and move him in a new direction or to a different
place.

Again, do this NOT as punishment but to help him. If he's reaching his
limit with a particular situation, change the situation for him.

> He sometimes acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that
> has to do with the sort of television he has been exposed to at his
> father's


I would bet big huge money it's the split between you. It affects kids
way more than parents want to see because parents are often relieved
to be out of the relationship so the effects on the kids seem a small
price to pay. And kids often don't realize how much it's affecting
them. All they know is there's an unsettledness inside them that's
making everything unpleasant.

But if you type divorce into the archives and read about now grown
adult views of what divorce felt like to them as kids, it's really eye
opening.

While he may be playing out violent TV shows, he's doing so because of
the stress he feels, The TV shows are just making what's going on in
side clearer on the outside. Making the behavior disappear doesn't
make what's going on inside disappear!

> I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys,
> etc etc but to no avail.

If you were sad and someone told you to stop crying, would that help?
What it's saying to your child -- unintentionally -- is that you don't
care about his feeling, only about how he's affecting your feelings.

When kids are being the worst is when they need the most love.

Did you check into the Scott Noelle Daily Groove I posted? They can be
a huge help in mentally shifting to see your child in a new light.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jennifer Kaminski

I can completely relate to both of your posts. I am a stay at home mother to two
boys my first son is turning 5 in July ( he is the one I have a lot of the same
problems with) and my other son just turned one in April and I can already tell
they are going to have two very different personalities. But to get back to the
issues outlined. My older son North, becomes very easily frustrated with his
environment from getting dressed to his toys to other children at times as well.
His personality in this way is at times completely overwhelming and huge and I
have found that his over reactive behavior grates down on me and if I am in any
way stressed about anything (mostly things having nothing to do with him) I can
lose my temper with his easily frustrated outbursts very quickly leaving me
feeling totally even more stressed and guilty because I want so badly to be able
to show him compassion and model a way for him to have self control.

I find the most important thing I do is to apologize to him when I have really
gone off the handle. And let him know that I am human too and sometimes lose
control emotionally as well, this puts us on the same level in a way, and hep
him to understand that I am not perfect either. iT helps put things back in
perspective for both of us. I know that what I really need is take care of
myself so that i can go to that more comprehensive and intuitive place when
dealing with him and his large distinct wonderful creative and totally awesome
personality. That is truly I think the answer: I need to care for myself more so
that I am not reacting with nerves and from stress and so that I can find that
creative place within me where I can really coach him through to the other side.
I know it exists because Ive done it before on several occasions we just get
into bad routines some times.

Musc love and support to all you mamas!!
Yours Truly,


Jennifer Lynn Kaminski
Certified PPTM and Birth Doula




________________________________
From: Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 7:20:00 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: curbing behavior


I definitely have to admit that part of the problem is me, okay.. much of the
problem. I am easily frustrated, irritated, etc. and not just with my son but
with many people. I don't handle stress easily and in a way I'm sort of spoiled
and like getting my way. But I'm trying to change that. An example of my son
driving me insane would be today, for instance, we went to a birthday party and
he had a hard time keeping his hands to himself. He was hitting and grabbing and
pushing inside the bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop. Or this
morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to play while we were
still in bed. Mind you, if we lived in a rural area like we plan to this
wouldn't be such an issue but right now we live in a townhouse surrounded by
lots of people and I just worry about his safety. I know and can admit that some
of things I get upset about most people wouldn't. And I have been working on
that. My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a million
times. I feel myself turning into my mother sometimes with my parenting and I
want to steer from that. I have read this group's posts for awhile and read up a
little on unschooling and the parenting aspect of it and it totally intrigues
me. Some issues that I have are ones I have listed but also my son's father and
I are not together so that is sometimes a challenge as he doesn't communicate
well with me about our son. My son is a very smart little boy for his age. Very
verbal and just very smart in general. Most people think he's 5. He sometimes
acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that has to do with the sort
of television he has been exposed to at his father's and also the frustration I
don't hide very well under stress that worries me too. I have tried asking him
to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
I hope I didn't ramble on too much but I have seen the great advice many of you
have given so I'm hoping someone can help me in the right direction to not only
the world of unschooling but to better parenting. thanks!

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...>
wrote:
>
> 3.5 years old -- no I don't think it's a total loss yet. :)
>
> Give us a specific example of you being frustrated.
>
> Then we can tell you to let go, slow down, stop caring about whatever it is
>that you think the 3.5-year-old should care about, etc.
>
>
> Maybe you don't need to go through all that. Maybe you can think of an example
>to yourself or stop yourself the next time you start to overreact. And stop
>yourself.
>
>
> Nance
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent
>posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical
>unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents
>actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I
>have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper
>and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to
>reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle
>approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've
>tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond
>irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
> >
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Have you ever been in a bounce house? Bouncing into other kids is part of what happens. If physical contact with other kids is not allowed, either by you or the other parents, the kids shouldn't be in the bounce house.

If your 3.5-year-old can get outside by himself, you need to safety-proof your house. It is not his fault you sleep too late. :) He's up, he's ready to play. Get better/higher/whatever locks. No matter where you live.

It sounds like you are one of the people treating your son like he is older than he is, btw. Not that 5-year-olds are necessarily gentle with their toys. Why does he need to be so gentle with them?

One thing I notice is that you explain yourself by saying your are easily frustrated, irritated, showing frustration when under stress, etc. Life is difficult sometimes. Add an absent father and 3.5-year-old child and who knows what else and your days are full and tiring and can be frustrating. Now add constant picking at the 3.5-year-old about what sounds like perfectly normal behavior to me. Too much angst and a negative atmosphere. What can you change in yourself to make your home more pleasant? For everyone.

Nance





--- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
>
> I definitely have to admit that part of the problem is me, okay.. much of the problem. I am easily frustrated, irritated, etc. and not just with my son but with many people. I don't handle stress easily and in a way I'm sort of spoiled and like getting my way. But I'm trying to change that. An example of my son driving me insane would be today, for instance, we went to a birthday party and he had a hard time keeping his hands to himself. He was hitting and grabbing and pushing inside the bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop. Or this morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to play while we were still in bed. Mind you, if we lived in a rural area like we plan to this wouldn't be such an issue but right now we live in a townhouse surrounded by lots of people and I just worry about his safety. I know and can admit that some of things I get upset about most people wouldn't. And I have been working on that. My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a million times. I feel myself turning into my mother sometimes with my parenting and I want to steer from that. I have read this group's posts for awhile and read up a little on unschooling and the parenting aspect of it and it totally intrigues me. Some issues that I have are ones I have listed but also my son's father and I are not together so that is sometimes a challenge as he doesn't communicate well with me about our son. My son is a very smart little boy for his age. Very verbal and just very smart in general. Most people think he's 5. He sometimes acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that has to do with the sort of television he has been exposed to at his father's and also the frustration I don't hide very well under stress that worries me too. I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
> I hope I didn't ramble on too much but I have seen the great advice many of you have given so I'm hoping someone can help me in the right direction to not only the world of unschooling but to better parenting. thanks!
>
> --- In [email protected], "marbleface@" <marbleface@> wrote:
> >
> > 3.5 years old -- no I don't think it's a total loss yet. :)
> >
> > Give us a specific example of you being frustrated.
> >
> > Then we can tell you to let go, slow down, stop caring about whatever it is that you think the 3.5-year-old should care about, etc.
> >
> > Maybe you don't need to go through all that. Maybe you can think of an example to yourself or stop yourself the next time you start to overreact. And stop yourself.
> >
> > Nance
> >
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the recent posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their parents actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to the way I have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short temper and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best to reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more gentle approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating. I've tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm beyond irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing something.
> > >
> >
>

plaidpanties666

"Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
> An example of my son driving me insane would be today, for instance, we went to a birthday party and he had a hard time keeping his hands to himself. He was hitting and grabbing and pushing inside the bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop.
*****************

I have two very active, robust, rough-and-tumble kids. I found it was important to keep those traits in mind any time we were thinking of joining other families - are the other kids going to be robust enough to deal with mine? It doesn't do Anyone any good to have one kid become the "terror" of a party or group play, but a very physical kid will turn into a terror quickly out of pure enthusiasm. When kids are excited, they have much less impulse control - an excited 3yo probably has none at all!

Frankly, I'd stay away from groups in "bounce houses" and similar environments for awhile. Maybe avoid all parties for now. It's not reasonable to expect a young child to contain his natural enthusiasm in an exciting space like that. When Ray was little, we found it better to stick to older playmates and only one at a time - parties were generally disasters so we learned to avoid them and really, other families were just as glad. We burned too many bridges too soon by trying to make sure he was included and have been careful not to make the same mistake with Mo.

Look for one-on-one play opportunities with kids who are a little older than yours - or a Lot older, if you can find older kids, teens or even adults who want to pal around with your little guy. That was a great help with Ray.

>>Or this morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to play while we were still in bed. Mind you, if we lived in a rural area like we plan to this wouldn't be such an issue but right now we live in a townhouse surrounded by lots of people and I just worry about his safety.
********************

All the yelling and explaining in the world won't stop that - and punishment will only guarantee that he sneaks out quietly. You're better off joining in his play and reminding him to let you know where he is. With young children who are still artlessly egocentric, it can help to say "I love you so much and want to be where you are" or "I'm your mommy and love looking at you" rather than trying to explain about safety. It makes Sense to a toddler that his mom wants to be where he is out of love - safety is too esoteric.

If he gets up early, plan on getting up early, too. That's your best defense. If that's not a sure thing right now, make sure there's plenty of fun in the house - things he can get to right away and start playing, or watching tv or whatever he likes first thing in the morning.

>>My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a million times.
***************

Step away from the idea that your words will have any validity to him. Listen and look more and learn from what you observe so that you can set him up to succeed. Right now you're setting him up to fail and bemoaning that fact - you'll be sooooo much happier once you turn that around.

Create situations where you don't "need" to yell or repeat or explain - but to do that will take some direct action on your part and it will seem awkward for awhile. That's natural. You've been led to expect that you can parent with your voice and its Not True! Parenting is hands-on and immediate, especially with a more energetic child.

>> I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
*****************

Think about that for a moment - do You like being told to calm down when the world isn't living up to your expectations? I don't ;)

Rather than saying "play nice" stop and consider what he's needing in the moment. Does he need a snack? Some attention? Those are good things to try if you're not sure - but don't ask! Bring him a plate of goodies and get down on the floor with him. Can you play too? Get involved with his fun.

At the same time, does it Matter if he's rough with his toys? With two feisty kids, I've learned to buy things with the knowledge they could be broken - so things need to be impressively sturdy or cheap, and on my budget I aim for cheap. Our few special toys I take charge of their care - electric trains, for instance - with the understanding that my kids will grow into being able to do it themselves. And they have! I still keep track of game pieces and magazines so pieces aren't lost and pages aren't torn, but I rarely worry about general toys or furniture these days.

>>He sometimes acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that has to do with the sort of television he has been exposed to at his father's and also the frustration I don't hide very well
********************

People will have far more of an impact on his behavior than tv. While kids do try things they see, they're far, far more influenced by real people than imaginary characters in books, movies, and television. What's he doing - smashing things? It doesn't take a tv for kids to do that. I have a pretty "alternative" lifestyle and know plenty of no-tv kids. They still smash things, I promise ;)

If your son is very emotional, it could be good for him to work out some of his feelings with his toys. It might help you to join in!

At the same time, if he's very physical it could be that what you're calling "anger" is just excess energy. For instance, Ray used to smash things. It Looked angry, but when he was given a lot of chances to use the same muscle groups - whacking weeds, pounding with a hammer, throwing rocks, and even smashing things in the garbage - he wasn't nearly as hard on his toys or the furniture. He didn't need to be told "calm down" - just the opposite! He needed to learn safe, acceptible ways to deal with all his pent up energy.

As he's gottten older, he's able to use that as a tool when he's angry. He'll go chop wood or pound out his anger at his forge, or work out with his fire-staff. He Still needs to do things that use the big muscles of his shoulders and back regularly - that's how he's built.

A good rule of thumb with little kids is to look at what they like to do - and especially what they can't seem to stop doing - in terms of which big muscle groups are being used. Some kids need lots of arm action, others lots of leg action. And some need to use the big chest muscles a lot - kids who yell a lot will benefit from things like blowing bubbles, balloons, harmonicas (or a dijeridoo, those are Great for kids and not nearly as hard on adult ears). Kids who do a lot of touching may need more tactile stimulation - give them more things to touch, smear and squish.

---Meredith

Sacha Davis

I have a four year old boy so I'm pretty close to where you and your son are.

This age is endlessly frustrating. It's supposed to be. Kids are testing
their boundaries, figuring out what they can and can't do, seeing what
really bothers you. There's also a lot of joy as your child grows up, but
with that comes their push for independence, and being kids, they don't do
it in ways that are always comfortable for their parents.

My very lovely son drives me insane on a daily basis. What I've come to
realize is that the only person I can control in the situation is myself
and my reaction to him. He is not malicious in his behavior, he is just
trying to get his needs met, and he's at his worst when I am not making
sure is world is okay.

3-4 year olds have so little power in life, they are told what to do by
everyone, they have little ability to dictate what they will do, when they
will do it. So they take power when they play, maybe with aggressive
play, or being aggressive toward other kids. Instead of repeating
yourself a million times (truthfully if you've said it more than a couple
times maybe repeating it beyond that isn't really working and it's time to
change tactics) and trying to stem the aggression, maybe reflecting it
back and really pay attention because you'll probably learn more about
what's going on in the little head.

I totally agree with taking responsibility when you do mess up. I mess up
pretty much daily, and I've been quite upfront with Finn at times that
mommy was completely out of line.

I too tend to be negative about my son, so sometimes I step back and think
of all of he wonderful characteristics: that he loves his family with
intensity, that he can build amazing creations out of blocks, that he's a
nice playmate and a good friend, that his whole body can shake with joy
and that he completely and utterly fills up my soul with his love. So
what if I want to strangle him here and there.

And I think you need to child-proof your front door. My son also can let
himself out of the house and there have been days that I'm heading out to
work and he's running after me and my wife is still in bed. Not good.

It's no fun to look at yourself as a parent and see failure, but at least
you see it and that means you're paying attention and that you care about
being better.


S.

> I can completely relate to both of your posts. I am a stay at home mother
> to two
> boys my first son is turning 5 in July ( he is the one I have a lot of the
> same
> problems with) and my other son just turned one in April and I can already
> tell
> they are going to have two very different personalities. But to get back
> to the
> issues outlined. My older son North, becomes very easily frustrated with
> his
> environment from getting dressed to his toys to other children at times as
> well.
> His personality in this way is at times completely overwhelming and huge
> and I
> have found that his over reactive behavior grates down on me and if I am
> in any
> way stressed about anything (mostly things having nothing to do with him)
> I can
> lose my temper with his easily frustrated outbursts very quickly leaving
> me
> feeling totally even more stressed and guilty because I want so badly to
> be able
> to show him compassion and model a way for him to have self control.
>
> I find the most important thing I do is to apologize to him when I have
> really
> gone off the handle. And let him know that I am human too and sometimes
> lose
> control emotionally as well, this puts us on the same level in a way, and
> hep
> him to understand that I am not perfect either. iT helps put things back
> in
> perspective for both of us. I know that what I really need is take care of
> myself so that i can go to that more comprehensive and intuitive place
> when
> dealing with him and his large distinct wonderful creative and totally
> awesome
> personality. That is truly I think the answer: I need to care for myself
> more so
> that I am not reacting with nerves and from stress and so that I can find
> that
> creative place within me where I can really coach him through to the other
> side.
> I know it exists because Ive done it before on several occasions we just
> get
> into bad routines some times.
>
> Musc love and support to all you mamas!!
> Yours Truly,
>
>
> Jennifer Lynn Kaminski
> Certified PPTM and Birth Doula
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 7:20:00 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: curbing behavior
>
>
> I definitely have to admit that part of the problem is me, okay.. much of
> the
> problem. I am easily frustrated, irritated, etc. and not just with my son
> but
> with many people. I don't handle stress easily and in a way I'm sort of
> spoiled
> and like getting my way. But I'm trying to change that. An example of my
> son
> driving me insane would be today, for instance, we went to a birthday
> party and
> he had a hard time keeping his hands to himself. He was hitting and
> grabbing and
> pushing inside the bounce house and I asked him numerous times to stop. Or
> this
> morning when I woke up to find out he had gone outside to play while we
> were
> still in bed. Mind you, if we lived in a rural area like we plan to this
> wouldn't be such an issue but right now we live in a townhouse surrounded
> by
> lots of people and I just worry about his safety. I know and can admit
> that some
> of things I get upset about most people wouldn't. And I have been working
> on
> that. My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a
> million
> times. I feel myself turning into my mother sometimes with my parenting
> and I
> want to steer from that. I have read this group's posts for awhile and
> read up a
> little on unschooling and the parenting aspect of it and it totally
> intrigues
> me. Some issues that I have are ones I have listed but also my son's
> father and
> I are not together so that is sometimes a challenge as he doesn't
> communicate
> well with me about our son. My son is a very smart little boy for his age.
> Very
> verbal and just very smart in general. Most people think he's 5. He
> sometimes
> acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that has to do with the
> sort
> of television he has been exposed to at his father's and also the
> frustration I
> don't hide very well under stress that worries me too. I have tried asking
> him
> to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
> I hope I didn't ramble on too much but I have seen the great advice many
> of you
> have given so I'm hoping someone can help me in the right direction to not
> only
> the world of unschooling but to better parenting. thanks!
>
> --- In [email protected], "marbleface@..."
> <marbleface@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> 3.5 years old -- no I don't think it's a total loss yet. :)
>>
>> Give us a specific example of you being frustrated.
>>
>> Then we can tell you to let go, slow down, stop caring about whatever it
>> is
>>that you think the 3.5-year-old should care about, etc.
>>
>>
>> Maybe you don't need to go through all that. Maybe you can think of an
>> example
>>to yourself or stop yourself the next time you start to overreact. And
>> stop
>>yourself.
>>
>>
>> Nance
>>
>>
>> --- In [email protected], "Jessica" <nathansmommy1020@>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi there. I'm new here and haven't posted yet but after reading the
>> recent
>>posts I'm curious to know that if we haven't always practiced the radical
>>unschooling in parenting if the behavior a child has learned from their
>> parents
>>actions is reverseable. Delving into unschooling has opened my eyes to
>> the way I
>>have been parenting and it doesn't make me happy with myself. My short
>> temper
>>and frustration has rubbed off on my child and now I'd like to do my best
>> to
>>reverse it if that's even possible. I have tried incorporating a more
>> gentle
>>approach but when my 3.5 year old son is defiant its very frustrating.
>> I've
>>tried talking/asking nicely and I usually have to repeat myself until I'm
>> beyond
>>irritated. Any help would be appreciated as I'm obviously missing
>> something.
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Debra Rossing

> I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.

What exactly does "play nicely" and "calm down" mean? Get 3 adults together and you'll get 4 or 5 answers so how is a wee one supposed to understand that? Don't set him up for problems - if he can unlock the door and exit and that's a hazard (when DS was that young we lived in an apartment complex so I 'get' that part of it), get a deadbolt lock and install it way up high at the top of the door frame and lock it at night (a keyed one so that he can't open it without the key that you keep safe); if being in a bounce house gets him wired up (as it does many kids), maybe graciously excuse yourselves from bounce house parties for a time; and so on. You say you have to keep repeating yourself. Maybe stop and think: if someone repeatedly tells -you- something but you don't get what they're asking (as in "Play nicely"), what does their repeatedly telling you to do it accomplish? Everyone gets frustrated - they're frustrated because you're not complying, you're frustrated because you don't understand and someone is upset with you for a reason you don't get. Think about defining what it is you're asking - does "play nicely" mean "turn the volume of your play down so I can hear the news"; "please don't throw the wooden blocks at the television"; "bouncing those pointy plastic toys off the couch cushions is a potential eye injury hazard and it's tearing the fabric as well"; etc. Too often we tell kids to "play nicely" without giving them any idea what we mean by that - so they play in a manner that is fun for them, that's often the best definition of "nice" they have at the time. Until somewhere near puberty, kids live in a very concrete world, it is or it isn't there's little shading. Use specifics "Please keep your Legos off the couch - it hurts my bum when I sit on them accidentally and they might get squashed by my bum. It's okay to have them on the floor or the table." (oh yeah and make sure that if there's a "don't" involved that you include the "do" - you CAN play with them over here but not over there)

Deb R



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Jessica

I am specific when asking him to 'play nicely' I was just describing what I say broadly I guess. I appreciate all of this feedback and I have been incorporating some of it over the weekend. I know that it won't turn around overnight and that I need to focus on my behavior and actions first and I have been. I have been researching unschooling all weekend and I look forward to the joy it will bring my family. Any additional advice and guidance is greatly appreciated. I look forward to learning more!

Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:

>> I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc etc but to no avail.
>
>What exactly does "play nicely" and "calm down" mean?

Debra Rossing

> He Still needs to do things that use the big muscles of his shoulders and back regularly - that's how he's built.

For DS, it was helpful to have punching type things that used his upper body a lot. When he was really little, I could hold a pillow or cushion and he'd punch it. As he got bigger, so did his punches. So, we got an inflatable thing (the kind that is weighted to return upright every time) until it got to where he could hit it hard enough that it would "surrender" and stay down. Then we invested in an adjustable height boxing style "peanut bag" and kid size boxing gloves. We've since replaced the gloves with the martial arts style sparring gloves (he prefers the freedom in his fingers). Sometimes he uses it to vent frustration, other times he just needs to exert those muscles. When he was a wee one and we had precious little space (we lived in apartments until he was 3.5), we had a mini trampoline he'd bounce on while he watched TV and such, so he could get that movement in when the outdoors wasn't a good idea (9 pm on a snowy New England winter night for example - even HE didn't want to be out in that). At around 5, he loved challenging himself on carrying groceries - he'd ask how much something weighed and then carry it as far as he could (for example, a gallon of liquid like water or milk is approx 8 lbs). By age 7 or 8 he could carry 2 full gallons of milk up a flight of stairs - by his own choice, if he decided he didn't want to do that on a given day, us grown-ups would handle it. Now, at nigh 13, he helps us haul bins of stuff when we're setting up our space at craft fairs - he can navigate the hand truck stacked 3 bins high himself!

He's always had lots of physical energy needs - our task was to help him meet those needs in ways that fit the environment at a given time. For instance, chitchat time after church worship time wasn't a great time to be running about (too many people and chairs and such, including elderly folks who are a bit fragile). So, sometimes I'd bounce him like a basketball - LOL I know it sounds odd - I'd hold my hand palm down parallel to the floor a few inches higher than his head and he'd bounce up and down so that I could just pat his head as if his head were a ball I was bouncing; other times (and this got a few odd looks but it was useful so it stayed, the odds looks went away eventually) I'd hold my two hands in front of me to make a wall (palms forward, thumbs crossed in back out of the way) and he'd punch at it, trying to 'break' the wall; I'd gradually 'give way' after a few punches and when his hand finally broke through, I'd kiss his knuckles and rebuild the wall and start again. When he was a little older (maybe 5-6 yrs old), I'd hold my hands out and call out lefts and rights like a boxing coach and he'd use whichever hand I called out (so it took a bit more focus and concentration to keep up). If there was a little space, I'd prepare myself and he'd take a short run and slam into me, trying to get me off balance - but I know how to absorb the impact so I'd catch him, kiss his head and let him go try again. At home, I'd sit on the side of the bed and he'd run and try to knock me backward. I'd catch him and give him a kiss and he'd try again. Sometimes he'd knock me off balance (or I'd fall backward myself) and we'd have a bit of a wrestle. Other times, he'd try to catch my arm and I'd try to keep it away from him. Now, as he's older, we do "Karate Kid" type sparring (nothing formally martial arts, just stuff I picked up from watching Karate Kid and basic self defense type moves) and the goal is to tap the other person's shoulder. Hmm thinking through all of these physical things I'm seeing a pattern - not only are they using lots of muscles (especially for DS his upper body) but there's also an aspect of physical contact and focused attention from me (or from DH, though his physical limitations affected what stuff he could handle). Those are also important - sometimes "acting out" is actually "hey, I want your 100% attention, not just "uh huh uh huh" while you're half listening and reading a magazine"

Deb R



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Jessica

I think I should mention something else that has been driving me nuts since its going on right now. I recently left my job to stay home with my son and I have offered to watch my friends two little boys one of which is my sons age. Whenever his friend comes over to play his whole attitude changes and he fights with him and misbehaves. I have tried the nice approach, I have tried the distracting approach. Nothing is working. I am at my wits end and about to tell my friend she needs to find someone else to watch her boys. But if I do that I will have to go back to work, defeating the whole purpose of staying home. I don't know how to get him to play nice. Its not like his friend is mean to him, he's not. My son is very bossy and mean towards him and I'm sick and tired of yelling at him. Does anyone else experience a change in behavior when their kids are around other kids? Should I be doing something else? I feel like an idiot but I'm sure someone has some positive advice to share! Thank you.

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 23, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Jessica wrote:

> Whenever his friend comes over to play his whole attitude changes
> and he fights with him and misbehaves.

Behavior is communication. He's telling you there's something that
bothers him about the situation. Until you can figure that out, it's
not fair to him or the other child who is being dumped on. And you
can't radically unschool if the atmosphere is unpleasant.

Does he feel like this other child is taking you away from him? Does
he feel like his space is being invaded? Are you perhaps commandeering
his toys for the other child and not giving him a chance to decide
what gets played with and where? What does this all look like from his
point of view?

You might try Siblings Without Rivalry
http://tinyurl.com/6ykmxye

There may be ways you're contributing to the tension without realizing
it.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

On top of which, you can't radically unschool one child as you simultaneously provide conventional daycare for hire, at least not as a beginner under so many other life stresses. (I doubt I could or would be able to do it.) So this is a key piece of perspective for the responses you get here and for you to hold in your own mind! The atmosphere you describe and the concerns you ask help with, do sound like those of a new conventional home daycare proprietor who has her own young child at home too, and not much like unschooling questions.

Is the other mom keenly interested in unschooling too, or better yet, already radically unschooling? If not, I worry that you're in a tough situation right now for doing it successfully.




--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 23, 2011, at 11:02 AM, Jessica wrote:
>
> > Whenever his friend comes over to play his whole attitude changes
> > and he fights with him and misbehaves.
>
> Behavior is communication. He's telling you there's something that
> bothers him about the situation. Until you can figure that out, it's
> not fair to him or the other child who is being dumped on. And you
> can't radically unschool if the atmosphere is unpleasant.
>

Ulrike Haupt

Hi

you wrote "Whenever his friend comes over to play his whole attitude changes and he fights
with him and misbehaves."

It could just be that the energetic matrix of the boys is at a clash. Don't you know some
people who really rub you the wrong way? (I know of a person who makes me incapable of
cooking! Imagine that! I am a Super good Cook!) The same could be with these two little
ones. We have it here too, with Ariella and her three cousins of which one is the
'culprit'. They just cannot be in the same room without major clashing of energies. It is
not personal. Just fricking energies.

My solution is to not allow the other children near Ari in my home or have someone else -
not me, as I freak out, too - 'her' energies and mine just are at a dissonance! - to be
on hand at all times with Ari and the others together. I could see the discordance when I
looked at the Human Design Charts of the children involved. It is not that I don't want
the other children around. It is just when they are in the same room with Ari that sparks
fly. With Maika this is not happening. So, either Ari has to be taken out of the fry or
the others and since Ari is my real grandchild and the others are not (!) Ari's needs
have a higher priority in my personal living space.

This Human Design has given me so much insight already in becoming a more understanding
and a more radical unschooling parent/grandparent with family and strangers alike.

For instance , Ari (as well as I) are energetically open in a certain way where most of
the people we come into contact with have a Definition of Energy. When Ari and I re alone
together 'life' flows' easily. When any one or more of the other join us things start to
become 'tense' and discordonant. Our solution at present is to take ourselves - Ari and
myself - away from the others, until we become aware and stable enough within to handle
these energies.



Oh, parenting is so much more than feeding, and educating (teaching the basics of reading,
writing and arithmetic) and following (societal) rules. Unschooling seemed to be
relatively simple when I decided to get my youngest out of the rat race and take care of
his soul instead of his 'education' some 12 years ago. With my grandchildren I am much
more aware of the unmet needs that grow into real (health) issues within such a blistering
short time already. The energetic interplay between two people is already quite intricate.
allow another or more people to join the energetic mixing and situations really get out of
hand in no time at all. That is my personal experience.

Yes, there is a way to handle such situations. BUT it needs a lot of conscious awareness
and being in the Now and able to acty/react/respond appropriately. Quite a walk on
eggshells at times. :-) And my grandchildren are much more forgiving than I was at their
age, I am sure. I still lick my wounds of way back then while they are eager to be friends
again and again. They are such awesome people. My grandkids, I mean, but also my children,
of course, meaning Charlotte and Carola.



Blissings

Ulrike - feeling quite jaded at this moment in time in Namibia - somewhere in Africa

PS - And just now - and for an hour - my cousin called me and we talked about this
selfsame issue for more than an hour! How is that for Law of Attraction?









_____

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Jessica
Sent: 23 May 2011 17:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: curbing behavior





I think I should mention something else that has been driving me nuts since its going on
right now. I recently left my job to stay home with my son and I have offered to watch my
friends two little boys one of which is my sons age. Whenever his friend comes over to
play his whole attitude changes and he fights with him and misbehaves. I have tried the
nice approach, I have tried the distracting approach. Nothing is working. I am at my wits
end and about to tell my friend she needs to find someone else to watch her boys. But if I
do that I will have to go back to work, defeating the whole purpose of staying home. I
don't know how to get him to play nice. Its not like his friend is mean to him, he's not.
My son is very bossy and mean towards him and I'm sick and tired of yelling at him. Does
anyone else experience a change in behavior when their kids are around other kids? Should
I be doing something else? I feel like an idiot but I'm sure someone has some positive adv
ice to share! Thank you.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

******
I definitely have to admit that part of the problem is me, okay.. much of
the problem. I am easily frustrated, irritated, etc. and not just with my
son but with many people. I don't handle stress easily and in a way I'm sort
of spoiled and like getting my way. But I'm trying to change that.
*******
Let's get this down to the bones...

YOU like to get YOUR way and when you don't...you over-react, punish others,
and are generally horrible to be around. You admit that and that's great.
(I'm not picking on you BTW...my list of unflattering traits would be
similarly ugly to see.) You are trying to change that and that is also
GREAT. Good for you! It will make a huge difference in most areas of your
life. But...at the same time, you are however old you are, I'm assuming
over 20...and you still act like a petulant child, while expecting a 5 yr
old to behave like a 40yr old. You expect better behavior from HIM than you
do of yourself. Don't respond to that. Think about it. And the next time
something horks you off, remember that I said it that way. "You expect
better behavior from a 5 yr old than you do yourself."

The other thing I am going to say is that in a given moment, we all have
choices of how to behave and each of us, little kids and adults alike
sometimes make the better choice and sometimes the worst one. Your little
guy is pretty much just firing off as he's supposed to. Kids are selfish
little critters. They are SUPPOSED to be. It's how we survive. (My
daughter spent almost 4 years in a Chinese orphanage....she will take ANY
blanket in the house she can get her hands on...she is about to turn
7....and will take all the protein she can grab at meals. Because in a
Chinese orphanage, if you can stay warm and get fed, you won't die. It's a
harsh reality that I think most "Westerners" and I use that term loosely
don't really "get". All kids are ego-centric. Don't try to correct it.
It's not an error. YOU though, should be willing to martyr yourself for
your child. So in a moment, assume he's doing the best he can, and you try
to do better. That's the bottom line. It isn't easy and it won't always
work, and sometimes you'll completely mess it up. And that's typical.
Progress is NEVER a straight line, it generally moves forward but it twists
and turns and snakes about.

*****
My problem is what do I do so I don't have to repeat myself a million times.
I feel myself turning into my mother sometimes with my parenting and I want
to steer from that.
******

Honey, that's parenting. He's FIVE. This is normal. And if you are saying
the same thing over and over, you need to rethink the entire situation. You
are messing it up. He's going to be and do what he is and what he needs.
You need to figure out how the "thing" you are remarking about over and over
can be reworked, avoided, embraced, or seen in a different light. But
remember he is FIVE. Not 25.

He's not responsible for you turning into your mother. You are. If you've
read here enough you've seen others talk about not wanting to parent the way
they were parented. That's common, and we all struggle with it. It is
something I struggle with from time to time and I've been "doing this" for
oh...4yrs? I don't know how long. I suspect it is something many people
here have come up from time to time. But it is about YOU controlling your
behavior and making better choices. It is not for him to "toe the line" so
that you don't have to "go there" you know? (Again, I know you are trying.
And believe me when I say I offer this as just a plain way to look at things
and I offer it with the best of intentions and with care, concern,
unconditional positive regard, genuineness, and empathy.)

*****
Some issues that I have are ones I have listed but also my son's father and
I are not together so that is sometimes a challenge as he doesn't
communicate well with me about our son. My son is a very smart little boy
for his age. Very verbal and just very smart in general. Most people think
he's 5. He sometimes acts angrily toward his toys and such and I think that
has to do with the sort of television he has been exposed to at his father's
and also the frustration I don't hide very well under stress that worries me
too. I have tried asking him to calm down and play nicely with his toys, etc
etc but to no avail.
*****
OK. Here's the "deal". I am the child of divorced parents. It SUCKS. The
adults are all warm and fuzzy about it after some time passes, and they get
on with their lives, and get remarried, begin dating, make new kids, bring
new kids in the home etc...and it still SUCKS for the kids. What you and
your ex did (regardless of the circumstances and I don't care to know them
or want to hear about blame etc) is cruel and heartless to a child. He's
FIVE. How can he process why daddy isn't there anymore? You say he's
smart. He may be smart but he's not emotionally mature and cannot possibly
understand how or why this is a good deal. He is essentially homeless. YOU
stay in your place. His father stays in his place...but your little FIVE
year old son, has no home any longer. He has to drag a suitcase behind him
until he's old enough to leave. What if when he's at his Dad's house he
wants a toy that is at YOUR house? He can't have it. What if while with
you he wants a hug from his dad? He can't have it. Is he watching the two
of you carry on with other people? So, he's got less attention from his
parents and they are paying attention to other people? WHAT? I'd be RIGHT
PISSED OFF. Stop blaming TV and take the blame. YOU did this. His father
did this. And yes, there are reasons where it is justified, and situations
where one spouse can't stop it from happening. I get that. But I also know
how it feels to be that kid. And there is hurt and anger and NO ONE CARES.


There are things you could do to help with his anger and frustration and the
amount of hurt and sadness he carries but I can't get into them at this
time. Probably if you archive dive you can find some. But give the kid
room to express his hurt. He's been deeply wounded. I just turned 40 and
I'm still keenly aware of much of the pain I had to endure growing up. I
think you have to suck up this kid's anger and be a safe place for him to
express it. Don't say mean things about his father. EVER. NOT ONE THING
EVER. EVER. I can't even articulate how deeply painful THAT crap is to a
child. Don't do it. Get a journal and write it down. Vent with a
girlfriend WHEN YOUR BOY IS WITH HIS DAD. Whatever...but NEVER in front of
him ever.

The last thing I'm going to do is post something from The Onion...it's a
humorous website that appears "newsy" it's a safe link but it's short so
I'll put it here. It makes the best point about "calm down" ever...and they
aren't even talking about little kids.

Study: Majority Of 'Calm Downs' IneffectiveITHACA, NY�A study published
recently in the *Journal Of Mental Health* found that attempting to reverse
a loud emotional display by asking an individual to calm down was effective
only 9 percent of the time. Researchers at Cornell University's behavioral
lab induced anxiety in subjects by administering a series of electric
shocks, after which everyone was told to "calm down" and "take it easy." "We
were surprised to find that not only were these phrases ineffective, but in
an overwhelming number of cases they actually exacerbated the situation,"
psychologist Kenneth Pulaski said. "Even when participants were told to
'just take a deep breath,' they became more and more irate and were
eventually reduced to a screaming mess." The study also concluded that
telling someone to "just mellow out" would invariably lead to a researcher
being punched in the face.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/study-majority-of-calm-downs-ineffective,6927/

*******************
Remember that none of what I wrote was meant as an attack. I promise.
Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

Jessica <nathansmommy1020@...> wrote:
>Does anyone else experience a change in behavior when their kids are around other kids?
*************

Sometimes its more surprising that some young children actually get along with other young children than the reverse ;) It's Totally normal. Other kids are confusing, they don't have adult communication skills or adult empathy so they can't respond to a childs needs, wants and hopes - only their own! Some kids have a hard time with All kids their age, but do okay with older kids - or even younger and smaller kids! Age peers are The Hardest for youger kids to get along with.
>>Should I be doing something else?

Do they fight if you take them to a playground? Taking them elsewhere might help. Another issues that may be playing out is that having another child come into his home and use his things could be really stressful for your son. Can you confine the babysitting to one room in the house or a garage or something, so that your son can have "his" space and things kept safe?

If that's not possible, you may have to strictly manage the visiting child, keep him out of bedrooms and personal spaces and manage his time, too with activities and tv and whatnot. That could be awkward while also trying to unschool your own son, especially if it means your attention is divided between the two.

It might be better for your relationship with your son to find him a more-or-less congenial baby-sitter during the day and work on having a better relationship when you're home. It's not helping either of you if your home shouting, and giving lots of attention to someone other than him :( As your son gets older and better able to be home alone, you may be able to re-arrange your work schedule so that you're working mostly while he's sleeping or playing on the computer.

Unschooling takes a clever use of resources - and its not always do-able with the resources you have at the moment.

---Meredith