Question about deschooling myself
Joyce Fetteroll
I'm posting this for someone else who is reading on the list and would
like your input. :-) -- Joyce
=================
Hi
I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
like your input. :-) -- Joyce
=================
Hi
I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
Schuyler
While
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
------------------------------------
Why wouldn't you have activities planned or brilliant suggestions for things to
do? Those things are totally a part of an unschooling life. Experiments,
engagements, cool explorations, all of that. The difference is that your kids
get to say no to the stuff they don't want to do.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
------------------------------------
Why wouldn't you have activities planned or brilliant suggestions for things to
do? Those things are totally a part of an unschooling life. Experiments,
engagements, cool explorations, all of that. The difference is that your kids
get to say no to the stuff they don't want to do.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Scott & Marygrace Sorensen
I listened to Pat Farenga's teleconference this weekend and he recommended
this $15 CD in his talk. If you are interested, I've pasted the link below
to order. It's #7 on the page, so you'll have to scroll down.
Mg
7) Coping with Fear and Anxiety While Unschooling,
<http://www.learninginourownway.com/speakersatthelea.html#Andy Migner> Andy
Migner <http://www.learninginourownway.com/speakersatthelea.html> - 1 CD
Unschooling, for many of us, is a roller coaster ride of trust and fear.
When our bright-eyed curious child is glowing from the pleasure of a new
discovery or accomplishment, we relax, certain, that in choosing to
unschool, we made the right decision. But a week later, when that same child
is at loose ends, the kids are all fighting, we've been challenged or
criticized by a relative, (or even sometimes for no reason at all), we can
fall into the pit of doubt; "Am I doing enough?", "Am I doing too much?",
"Is this really what's best for my child?". In this interactive workshop you
will learn tools and strategies for reducing anxiety so that you can spend
more time trusting and enjoying both your child and "the ride".
http://www.learninginourownway.com/recordingsoflear.html
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Question about deschooling myself
I'm posting this for someone else who is reading on the list and would
like your input. :-) -- Joyce
=================
Hi
I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this $15 CD in his talk. If you are interested, I've pasted the link below
to order. It's #7 on the page, so you'll have to scroll down.
Mg
7) Coping with Fear and Anxiety While Unschooling,
<http://www.learninginourownway.com/speakersatthelea.html#Andy Migner> Andy
Migner <http://www.learninginourownway.com/speakersatthelea.html> - 1 CD
Unschooling, for many of us, is a roller coaster ride of trust and fear.
When our bright-eyed curious child is glowing from the pleasure of a new
discovery or accomplishment, we relax, certain, that in choosing to
unschool, we made the right decision. But a week later, when that same child
is at loose ends, the kids are all fighting, we've been challenged or
criticized by a relative, (or even sometimes for no reason at all), we can
fall into the pit of doubt; "Am I doing enough?", "Am I doing too much?",
"Is this really what's best for my child?". In this interactive workshop you
will learn tools and strategies for reducing anxiety so that you can spend
more time trusting and enjoying both your child and "the ride".
http://www.learninginourownway.com/recordingsoflear.html
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 12:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Question about deschooling myself
I'm posting this for someone else who is reading on the list and would
like your input. :-) -- Joyce
=================
Hi
I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
Guess I should post what I posted to her off list since it might be
useful for others:
One piece of advice I can give is that, at least for a while, you need
to find a way to avoid the people who are reinforcing the message that
you're wasting your life. If an alcoholic wants to stop drinking they
need to get away from alcohol until they've built up the personal
conviction that their choices are right for them before they can be
with people still making the old choices.
Another suggestion that's often given about concerned parents is to
create a blog of what you guys are up to.
If you want to throw in some educationese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060516065514/http://www.geocities.com/sablehs/Educationese.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060902201231/http://user.mc.net/~kwentz/
eduspeak.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060320220414/http://www.homeschoolnewslink.com/v7i5_Mars.html
Don't, though, do it to convince them. (You can't. If they change
their mind, it's because they've chose to.) Do it in the "here's our
fun life" way.
Obviously that's harder if the kids are big into video games! ;-) But
whenever you're out and about or doing photographable things at home,
put it up. You can let the kids know you'd like to share cool things
they do and come across with their grandparents.
Joyce
useful for others:
One piece of advice I can give is that, at least for a while, you need
to find a way to avoid the people who are reinforcing the message that
you're wasting your life. If an alcoholic wants to stop drinking they
need to get away from alcohol until they've built up the personal
conviction that their choices are right for them before they can be
with people still making the old choices.
Another suggestion that's often given about concerned parents is to
create a blog of what you guys are up to.
If you want to throw in some educationese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060516065514/http://www.geocities.com/sablehs/Educationese.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060902201231/http://user.mc.net/~kwentz/
eduspeak.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060320220414/http://www.homeschoolnewslink.com/v7i5_Mars.html
Don't, though, do it to convince them. (You can't. If they change
their mind, it's because they've chose to.) Do it in the "here's our
fun life" way.
Obviously that's harder if the kids are big into video games! ;-) But
whenever you're out and about or doing photographable things at home,
put it up. You can let the kids know you'd like to share cool things
they do and come across with their grandparents.
Joyce
JJ
The easy answer is: what an amazing unschool writer your friend might become one day! Reminds me of that old Haley Mills movie, the Trouble With Angels, do you remember? She was the Catholic school student who didn't need anybody or anything, had to do it her own way, didn't want any part of the school or church, a rebel getting others ito trouble and resisting the deeper meanings all around her, right up until graduation -- when she shocked her classmates and most of the nuns by staying to take vows and be a nun. She had learned more than anyone else through challenging it all so hard, engaging the ideas to fight against them and in the end not being able to deny its power. So she surrendered to it and simultaneously became more powerful than she could possibly imagine (no wait, that's Star Wars, hmmm . . .)
Something like that anyway. ;-)
The point I saw in it, was that it can be the person who struggles hardest that learns the most. It is one good way if not the only way.
The longer answer is that I was like that, too, in some sense. A doctorate in public schooling and all my friends/family with advanced degrees and sharing a reverence for education and public service. Also I was making much more money in a high state-level position than my partner was as a newspaper reporter, when I came home with our first. For years I made homeschoolers and then unschoolers really annoyed by trying to talk to them about "school" stuff. I'll think back and try to pull out some specifics that speak to these questions but in the meantime I've thought and written a lot about it less specifically, in ways that might get your friend's own thoughts unstuck and flowing again. The first thing that came to mind was this, three years ago when a group of us decided to imagine what our lives would be like if we hadn't had children at all:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/without-kids-what-would-i-know-worth-knowing/
Without Kids, What Would I Know Worth Knowing?
31 05 2008
What would I be doing now without kids?
In my life parenting has been a real education. So I guess without kids, I'd just be uneducated!
This is funny to me now, in light of all the formal schooling I had under my belt before I had kids. By 30 I had earned my doctorate and some worldly responsibility for other people's children, for the structure and process of THEIR educations.
If I didn't have children of my own to think about, I'd still be thinking about kids and education and getting paid for it, but my own education would have a big black light-sucking hole in it and I'd probably never even know it.
And without having kids who changed my life, would I be a systems thinker? What I've learned by living this life as mom to these children, is that moms don't only give life to their kids. We give life to ourselves in the process. Family life IS life itself, not a separate unit or system apart from the real world, not a straight line with ancestors and descendants going up and down in a family "tree."
Family is organic process, not inert structure. Ever see the movie "Mindwalk" with Sam Waterston, John Heard and Liv Ullmann?
A Cartesian would conceptually take the tree to pieces but a systems thinker would see the seasonal exchange between tree and earth, earth and sky, the breadth of life, the life of the tree in relation to the life of the forest, and as a home for insects and the fruits it produces not as something separate, but a member of a larger living system.
Interdependence.
Web of relationships is the essence of all living things.
This is a scientific fact. The theory of living systems is an outline of an answer to "what is life?"
I couldn't know without actually having them but I've learned well by now, that being a mom to these kids is the essence of my life, the central hub for my web of relationships. I can't take it to pieces to see how it works, or swap the parts around, put it back together again in alternate form to see what might have been.
I think in the process of learning so much from having these kids, I've learned to respect the unknowable, to be humble before its power. That isn't a religious statement to me. It's just life as I know it. :)
Something like that anyway. ;-)
The point I saw in it, was that it can be the person who struggles hardest that learns the most. It is one good way if not the only way.
The longer answer is that I was like that, too, in some sense. A doctorate in public schooling and all my friends/family with advanced degrees and sharing a reverence for education and public service. Also I was making much more money in a high state-level position than my partner was as a newspaper reporter, when I came home with our first. For years I made homeschoolers and then unschoolers really annoyed by trying to talk to them about "school" stuff. I'll think back and try to pull out some specifics that speak to these questions but in the meantime I've thought and written a lot about it less specifically, in ways that might get your friend's own thoughts unstuck and flowing again. The first thing that came to mind was this, three years ago when a group of us decided to imagine what our lives would be like if we hadn't had children at all:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/without-kids-what-would-i-know-worth-knowing/
Without Kids, What Would I Know Worth Knowing?
31 05 2008
What would I be doing now without kids?
In my life parenting has been a real education. So I guess without kids, I'd just be uneducated!
This is funny to me now, in light of all the formal schooling I had under my belt before I had kids. By 30 I had earned my doctorate and some worldly responsibility for other people's children, for the structure and process of THEIR educations.
If I didn't have children of my own to think about, I'd still be thinking about kids and education and getting paid for it, but my own education would have a big black light-sucking hole in it and I'd probably never even know it.
And without having kids who changed my life, would I be a systems thinker? What I've learned by living this life as mom to these children, is that moms don't only give life to their kids. We give life to ourselves in the process. Family life IS life itself, not a separate unit or system apart from the real world, not a straight line with ancestors and descendants going up and down in a family "tree."
Family is organic process, not inert structure. Ever see the movie "Mindwalk" with Sam Waterston, John Heard and Liv Ullmann?
A Cartesian would conceptually take the tree to pieces but a systems thinker would see the seasonal exchange between tree and earth, earth and sky, the breadth of life, the life of the tree in relation to the life of the forest, and as a home for insects and the fruits it produces not as something separate, but a member of a larger living system.
Interdependence.
Web of relationships is the essence of all living things.
This is a scientific fact. The theory of living systems is an outline of an answer to "what is life?"
I couldn't know without actually having them but I've learned well by now, that being a mom to these kids is the essence of my life, the central hub for my web of relationships. I can't take it to pieces to see how it works, or swap the parts around, put it back together again in alternate form to see what might have been.
I think in the process of learning so much from having these kids, I've learned to respect the unknowable, to be humble before its power. That isn't a religious statement to me. It's just life as I know it. :)
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I'm posting this for someone else who is reading on the list and would
> like your input. :-) -- Joyce
>
> =================
>
> Hi
> I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
> deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
> and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
> productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
> that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
> And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
> right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
> about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
> of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
> hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
> chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
> our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
> I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
> planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
> the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
>
otherstar
I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
------------------------------------
Why wouldn't you have activities planned or brilliant suggestions for things to
do? Those things are totally a part of an unschooling life. Experiments,
engagements, cool explorations, all of that. The difference is that your kids
get to say no to the stuff they don't want to do.
*****************************
I am not sure if this is what the original poster meant but I am going to share some of my frustrations that are in a similar vein because it may be closely related. One of the things that I keep running into is the fact that my kids get to do cool arts and crafts all the time. We don't have activities planned per se but we do lots of fun stuff. It's hard because my girls want to get together with people and just hang out. They don't like the idea that play time with a friend has to be structured. My 6 year old met a friend that she really likes. My family met her friend's family at the park and they played for several hours. There were a few road bumps but it wasn't anything bad. After that day, I never heard from the mom again. When we parted ways, the mom said she would call and we would do it again.
My husband continued to take my 6 year old to the place where she met her friend but after a while, her friend stopped going. I got an e-mail out of the blue inviting us to a Valentine's Card making get together. Making cards isn't a big deal to my daughter. She would rather just play. Making cool stuff is common place to my kids. Having other parents plan and schedule every little thing is not common place in our house so it can sometimes be difficult. It sometimes feels like you have to be able to organize a structured activity in order for your kids to have playmates. Where I live, it seems like the free play at play groups and park days have become opportunities for other moms to find a way to structure things. It seems like a competition as to who can organize the coolest activity/experiment/whatever. It is just another venue for moms to compete to be the "best" mom. The play group that we used to go to has been putting out messages about attendance requirements and more and more of the play groups are at museums and zoos or are being planned around a specific activity. More and more of the messages are about how you need to control what your children are doing.
I dropped out of a group that hosted park days because it seemed like it went from being a place where homeschooler/unschoolers met up to play to a place where moms got together to talk about all of the activities and curricula that they were cramming into the lives of their children. It was a good resource when I thought my girls wanted a bunch of structured activities but when I realized that my girls really want to hang out and have fun without other people telling them how to do it, I backed off the organized activities. Now, we do lots of fun stuff at home and as a family. We are doing all kinds of experiments and crafts, we are just doing them at home or on our terms. It is hard at times because it can sometimes feel like you aren't doing anything because you don't have a wall calendar with every day filled up with activities.
An activity does not have to be formally scheduled and planned in order to be counted as an activity. An experiment or a craft does not have to come out of a book. It doesn't have to be fancy or elaborate either. It doesn't have to be formal or structured. Experiments and crafts cover so much more than what most people think of when they think of an experiment or a craft.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
------------------------------------
Why wouldn't you have activities planned or brilliant suggestions for things to
do? Those things are totally a part of an unschooling life. Experiments,
engagements, cool explorations, all of that. The difference is that your kids
get to say no to the stuff they don't want to do.
*****************************
I am not sure if this is what the original poster meant but I am going to share some of my frustrations that are in a similar vein because it may be closely related. One of the things that I keep running into is the fact that my kids get to do cool arts and crafts all the time. We don't have activities planned per se but we do lots of fun stuff. It's hard because my girls want to get together with people and just hang out. They don't like the idea that play time with a friend has to be structured. My 6 year old met a friend that she really likes. My family met her friend's family at the park and they played for several hours. There were a few road bumps but it wasn't anything bad. After that day, I never heard from the mom again. When we parted ways, the mom said she would call and we would do it again.
My husband continued to take my 6 year old to the place where she met her friend but after a while, her friend stopped going. I got an e-mail out of the blue inviting us to a Valentine's Card making get together. Making cards isn't a big deal to my daughter. She would rather just play. Making cool stuff is common place to my kids. Having other parents plan and schedule every little thing is not common place in our house so it can sometimes be difficult. It sometimes feels like you have to be able to organize a structured activity in order for your kids to have playmates. Where I live, it seems like the free play at play groups and park days have become opportunities for other moms to find a way to structure things. It seems like a competition as to who can organize the coolest activity/experiment/whatever. It is just another venue for moms to compete to be the "best" mom. The play group that we used to go to has been putting out messages about attendance requirements and more and more of the play groups are at museums and zoos or are being planned around a specific activity. More and more of the messages are about how you need to control what your children are doing.
I dropped out of a group that hosted park days because it seemed like it went from being a place where homeschooler/unschoolers met up to play to a place where moms got together to talk about all of the activities and curricula that they were cramming into the lives of their children. It was a good resource when I thought my girls wanted a bunch of structured activities but when I realized that my girls really want to hang out and have fun without other people telling them how to do it, I backed off the organized activities. Now, we do lots of fun stuff at home and as a family. We are doing all kinds of experiments and crafts, we are just doing them at home or on our terms. It is hard at times because it can sometimes feel like you aren't doing anything because you don't have a wall calendar with every day filled up with activities.
An activity does not have to be formally scheduled and planned in order to be counted as an activity. An experiment or a craft does not have to come out of a book. It doesn't have to be fancy or elaborate either. It doesn't have to be formal or structured. Experiments and crafts cover so much more than what most people think of when they think of an experiment or a craft.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Ignore/avoid relatives and friends who do not get it. It is not your job to teach them or make them feel better. Find some one-liners you can deliver to these people if cornered and use them as you exit smiling.
Get involved in something for yourself if you want to. Start a business, start an unschooling support group, volunteer in your community, etc. Make it happen instead of just wishing for it to happen.
Others have offered suggestions about having a rich but unstructured environment at home. If you don't think there is enough stuff at home, get more. Talk about that, if you must, to doubters.
Every time you have a doubt or a question, know that many have gone through this same process. It is not new to worry about doing the best for our children -- no matter what the school choice. Take comfort in that and look for a positive action you can take to change whatever is bothering you -- and do it.
Nance
Get involved in something for yourself if you want to. Start a business, start an unschooling support group, volunteer in your community, etc. Make it happen instead of just wishing for it to happen.
Others have offered suggestions about having a rich but unstructured environment at home. If you don't think there is enough stuff at home, get more. Talk about that, if you must, to doubters.
Every time you have a doubt or a question, know that many have gone through this same process. It is not new to worry about doing the best for our children -- no matter what the school choice. Take comfort in that and look for a positive action you can take to change whatever is bothering you -- and do it.
Nance
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I'm posting this for someone else who is reading on the list and would
> like your input. :-) -- Joyce
>
> =================
>
> Hi
> I would like to hear about people's experiences with unschooling and
> deschooling themselves. I think that is behind my feeling conflicted
> and wanting to have intellectual stimulation. I feel that I am not
> productive, etc., feel a lot of pressure to be doing me, pressure even
> that I'm wasting my life and brains by homeschooling here in Canada.
> And I am not very self-assured that the folks saying this aren't
> right... I mean, I do know the value of unschooling and feel strongly
> about it, and still I get swamped with doubts in this bigger context
> of worrying about not being productive - I was raised by very
> hardworking immigtant parents who think I'm wasting my education and
> chance at greater material success... And they are very worried about
> our kids not keeping up with the kids of their friends' kids'. While
> I don't dwell on what they say, the anxiety of not having activities
> planned, of not having ready all sorts of brilliant suggestions for
> the kids, no experiments, no crafts... Feels scary!
>
Debra Rossing
That's a biggie - proactively give the grandfolks things to talk about
with their peers who are talking about Janie and Bobby. We made it a
practice early on to send lots of pictures and emails and such "here's a
picture of your grandboy touring a nuclear sub", "here's a picture of
your grandboy at a maple sugar shack", "here's a picture of your
grandboy with his latest Lego creation", and so on... It
(a) provides them with fodder for the chitchat with friends
(b) shows them that their grandkid(s) are alive and well and look happy
(c) gives them talking points for when you're visiting "I saw that
picture of you on the sub, what was that like? Did you know that Uncle G
was in the Navy and..."
It didn't take all that long after DS and his cousins were 'school age'
for the grandfolks to start to see that DS was still eager, energetic,
curious and most of his cousins lost that. They may not totally 100%
"get it" but they certainly see that it is a good thing for their
grandson - and that's what matters most to the grandfolks. They love
their grandkids and want the best for them - they just have never seen
anything other than the standard school paradigm. Once they start to see
it in action (not trying to convince them, just living life), it starts
to be more real and they will see that their grandkids are growing, and
healthy, and have retained their active curiosity to explore the world,
that they're not 'isolated' from the world but are in real life
fulltime, not just the pale imitation that is a classroom.
Deb R
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
with their peers who are talking about Janie and Bobby. We made it a
practice early on to send lots of pictures and emails and such "here's a
picture of your grandboy touring a nuclear sub", "here's a picture of
your grandboy at a maple sugar shack", "here's a picture of your
grandboy with his latest Lego creation", and so on... It
(a) provides them with fodder for the chitchat with friends
(b) shows them that their grandkid(s) are alive and well and look happy
(c) gives them talking points for when you're visiting "I saw that
picture of you on the sub, what was that like? Did you know that Uncle G
was in the Navy and..."
It didn't take all that long after DS and his cousins were 'school age'
for the grandfolks to start to see that DS was still eager, energetic,
curious and most of his cousins lost that. They may not totally 100%
"get it" but they certainly see that it is a good thing for their
grandson - and that's what matters most to the grandfolks. They love
their grandkids and want the best for them - they just have never seen
anything other than the standard school paradigm. Once they start to see
it in action (not trying to convince them, just living life), it starts
to be more real and they will see that their grandkids are growing, and
healthy, and have retained their active curiosity to explore the world,
that they're not 'isolated' from the world but are in real life
fulltime, not just the pale imitation that is a classroom.
Deb R
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 31, 2011, at 1:56 PM, Scott & Marygrace Sorensen wrote:
There's a feeling that since they're charging for it that they've cut
through all the crap to offer just the answers that you need.
Do be aware that, though John Holt left his work in Pat Farenga's
care, Pat Farenga doesn't promote the kind of deeply involved
unschooling -- and definitely not radical unschooling -- discussed
here. Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling is giving kids as much
freedom as a parent can comfortably bear. His wife is the
homeschooling parent and their kids have been in and out of school.
(Just some factors to look into to weigh the value of what he has to
say.)
If a parent's comfort zone is not very large, locking kids away from
the world in their safe home could be called unschooling by Pat
Farenga's definition! Which is why clarity of thought and words is
important in explaining unschooling.
This list focuses a lot on helping parents expand their comfort zones
so their kids can have as much freedom as *they need* in order to live
and learn joyfully.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I listened to Pat Farenga's teleconference this weekend and heBuying something from an expert can feel relieving and comforting.
> recommended
> this $15 CD in his talk.
There's a feeling that since they're charging for it that they've cut
through all the crap to offer just the answers that you need.
Do be aware that, though John Holt left his work in Pat Farenga's
care, Pat Farenga doesn't promote the kind of deeply involved
unschooling -- and definitely not radical unschooling -- discussed
here. Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling is giving kids as much
freedom as a parent can comfortably bear. His wife is the
homeschooling parent and their kids have been in and out of school.
(Just some factors to look into to weigh the value of what he has to
say.)
If a parent's comfort zone is not very large, locking kids away from
the world in their safe home could be called unschooling by Pat
Farenga's definition! Which is why clarity of thought and words is
important in explaining unschooling.
This list focuses a lot on helping parents expand their comfort zones
so their kids can have as much freedom as *they need* in order to live
and learn joyfully.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
Here's some follow up questions from the person who prefers to be
anonymous -- Joyce
-----------------
One thing I keep thinking back to: what is the unschooling you talk
about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations. I have
read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activities
planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
You also said that some define unschooling at giving a child freedom -
and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
zone is not being stretched?
I have heard unschooling be described as 'Saturday afternoon in
July'. What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of look
like day to day? This is the question I find most pressing.
anonymous -- Joyce
-----------------
One thing I keep thinking back to: what is the unschooling you talk
about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations. I have
read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activities
planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
You also said that some define unschooling at giving a child freedom -
and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
zone is not being stretched?
I have heard unschooling be described as 'Saturday afternoon in
July'. What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of look
like day to day? This is the question I find most pressing.
Schuyler
One thing I keep thinking back to: what is the unschooling you talk
about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations. I have
read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activities
planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
=======================
School at home is a system wherein one replicates school at home. Often there is
desk work or worksheets or tests and follow up work. There is a structure, a
curriculum, a goal that is created either by the parent or by whomever they have
purchased the curriculum from. It is an educational system that starts with the
belief that there are certain pieces of knowledge that must be handed down from
an instructor to a student for an adulthood to ever be successful.
Unschooling can contain bits that may look like that. Maybe some kids like to do
worksheets or assignments. Simon used to love having me type out math problems
for him to do. Linnaea liked spelling tests. We've played with worksheets in a
similar way to using colouring books. But within that description are big pieces
of difference. Linnaea asked me to ask her how to spell words. Simon asked me to
give him typewritten math problems. The worksheets were used as something
momentarily engaging. The games stopped when they stopped being fun. And other
things were found to engage. Whatever I may have suggested they could say no to.
Nothing was a mandatory activity. Which is a pretty major difference from my
experience with school.
Unschooling starts far away from the first steps of school at home. It starts
with a trust that people learn all the time and that children operate like the
rest of the population. They are engaged by the world around them and engage
with it. They learn about the things that interest them and from those things
they find out lots of tangential information and that cumulative process
produces a greater understanding of the world. I find myself doing that a lot of
the time.
We watched an episode of Hercules yesterday that lead to an exploration of not
only who Hercules was but about Prometheus and Ioleus and Iphicles and I am now
reading the Illustrated Bullfinch's Mythology Alex sent us a while ago (thanks
Alex). It lead to looking at Egyptian mythology because Simon was curious as to
who had a larger pantheon, the Greeks or the Egyptians. It lead to discussions
about why the Greeks and the Romans were the more focussed on polytheistic
traditions among television programmes. And then it moved away from a big
discussion to me still being curious and following up on my own.
Simon and Linnaea do a lot of that and a lot of that is moved forward by
engagement with David or with me. Sometimes they mention something and I know
something else that could add to that. Sometimes I mention something and they
know something else that could add to that.
When they were littler it helped a lot to have things to do, have ideas of ways
of moving a day into interesting and engaging things. For Simon it was a lot of
things like Asterix and Obelix computer games, for Linnaea it was more things
like playdoh or painting although both could enjoy either thing. When Simon was
2, before Linnaea was born, I used to take big sheets and put them on the ground
and we'd finger paint with glitter and paints and glue and make a big giant mess
and it was a moment to clean it. I wasn't teaching him how to play with glitter
and paint and glue, I was playing with him in a way he really enjoyed.
=======================
You also said that some define unschooling at giving a child freedom -
and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
zone is not being stretched?
======================
I'm not sure I understand this. I think something may have gotten confused
somewhere. Unschooling is certainly about giving a child freedom to explore.
Traditionally unschooling covers things like reading and math and history and
writing. Radical unschooling is about extending the freedom from those things
they see as educational to things like food or television or staying up late at
night. It is about trusting that learning happens not just in reading but also
in diet, for example.
Joyce mentioned that "Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling is giving kids as
much freedom as a parent can comfortably bear." Is that where the confusion
lies? If unschooling is giving a child only as much freedom as a parent can bear
and a parent cannot bear their child not to marry the husband who they were
betrothed to at birth is that still an unschooling approach to parenting? If an
honour killing of a child is the comfort level of the parent does that make it
unschooling? or is Pat Farenga wrong? I would argue that Pat Farenga is wrong in
part because he isn't thinking about what he's saying, at least not really. He
is reassuring those parents that he sees are doing the best they can with what
they have to be good unschooling parents. But his phrasing makes any parenting
approach unschooling. Presumably all parents are giving their kids as much
freedom as they can comfortably bear. But that doesn't make what they are doing
unschooling.
Unschooling may not have an easy description, but there are certainly conditions
in which it isn't happening. It isn't unschooling when your child is at school.
Even if you are doing all that you can to make their school experience their own
and not letting the dictates of the school be all that defines it. Sandra has a
nice piece on public school on your own terms:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice. But even that isn't unschooling. Unschooling
isn't pick and choose subjects, like "we are unschooling everything but reading,
she does reading assignments for an hour a day, but I trust her to get maths on
her own." Or " we are unschooling, I let them choose to stay on a subject for as
long as they want, once they've done their minimum work." That's possibly
eclectic homeschooling, some pasting of different approaches in the fear and the
hope that it will achieve a balanced and well educated adult who will achieve at
whatever levels in whatever fields they want.
Unschooling is a kind of game of trust. You keep closing your eyes and falling
back and hoping that the unschooling won't let you hit the floor. You keep
jumping off the ledge and hoping that the huge long fall that you see before you
is either an illusion or has a lovely warm and powerful updraft that will allow
you to drift gently to the earth. Lots of people come to the edge and try and
repel down, they hope that if they tie themselves on to the old system, the
seemingly tried and true system of schooled education, they can make the descent
a safer one. Unfortunately they are just handicapping themselves and they may
never make it anywhere except to the next ledge. The next ledge may be better
than at the upper edge, but it isn't as fabulous as all the way down here.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations. I have
read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activities
planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
=======================
School at home is a system wherein one replicates school at home. Often there is
desk work or worksheets or tests and follow up work. There is a structure, a
curriculum, a goal that is created either by the parent or by whomever they have
purchased the curriculum from. It is an educational system that starts with the
belief that there are certain pieces of knowledge that must be handed down from
an instructor to a student for an adulthood to ever be successful.
Unschooling can contain bits that may look like that. Maybe some kids like to do
worksheets or assignments. Simon used to love having me type out math problems
for him to do. Linnaea liked spelling tests. We've played with worksheets in a
similar way to using colouring books. But within that description are big pieces
of difference. Linnaea asked me to ask her how to spell words. Simon asked me to
give him typewritten math problems. The worksheets were used as something
momentarily engaging. The games stopped when they stopped being fun. And other
things were found to engage. Whatever I may have suggested they could say no to.
Nothing was a mandatory activity. Which is a pretty major difference from my
experience with school.
Unschooling starts far away from the first steps of school at home. It starts
with a trust that people learn all the time and that children operate like the
rest of the population. They are engaged by the world around them and engage
with it. They learn about the things that interest them and from those things
they find out lots of tangential information and that cumulative process
produces a greater understanding of the world. I find myself doing that a lot of
the time.
We watched an episode of Hercules yesterday that lead to an exploration of not
only who Hercules was but about Prometheus and Ioleus and Iphicles and I am now
reading the Illustrated Bullfinch's Mythology Alex sent us a while ago (thanks
Alex). It lead to looking at Egyptian mythology because Simon was curious as to
who had a larger pantheon, the Greeks or the Egyptians. It lead to discussions
about why the Greeks and the Romans were the more focussed on polytheistic
traditions among television programmes. And then it moved away from a big
discussion to me still being curious and following up on my own.
Simon and Linnaea do a lot of that and a lot of that is moved forward by
engagement with David or with me. Sometimes they mention something and I know
something else that could add to that. Sometimes I mention something and they
know something else that could add to that.
When they were littler it helped a lot to have things to do, have ideas of ways
of moving a day into interesting and engaging things. For Simon it was a lot of
things like Asterix and Obelix computer games, for Linnaea it was more things
like playdoh or painting although both could enjoy either thing. When Simon was
2, before Linnaea was born, I used to take big sheets and put them on the ground
and we'd finger paint with glitter and paints and glue and make a big giant mess
and it was a moment to clean it. I wasn't teaching him how to play with glitter
and paint and glue, I was playing with him in a way he really enjoyed.
=======================
You also said that some define unschooling at giving a child freedom -
and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
zone is not being stretched?
======================
I'm not sure I understand this. I think something may have gotten confused
somewhere. Unschooling is certainly about giving a child freedom to explore.
Traditionally unschooling covers things like reading and math and history and
writing. Radical unschooling is about extending the freedom from those things
they see as educational to things like food or television or staying up late at
night. It is about trusting that learning happens not just in reading but also
in diet, for example.
Joyce mentioned that "Pat Farenga's definition of unschooling is giving kids as
much freedom as a parent can comfortably bear." Is that where the confusion
lies? If unschooling is giving a child only as much freedom as a parent can bear
and a parent cannot bear their child not to marry the husband who they were
betrothed to at birth is that still an unschooling approach to parenting? If an
honour killing of a child is the comfort level of the parent does that make it
unschooling? or is Pat Farenga wrong? I would argue that Pat Farenga is wrong in
part because he isn't thinking about what he's saying, at least not really. He
is reassuring those parents that he sees are doing the best they can with what
they have to be good unschooling parents. But his phrasing makes any parenting
approach unschooling. Presumably all parents are giving their kids as much
freedom as they can comfortably bear. But that doesn't make what they are doing
unschooling.
Unschooling may not have an easy description, but there are certainly conditions
in which it isn't happening. It isn't unschooling when your child is at school.
Even if you are doing all that you can to make their school experience their own
and not letting the dictates of the school be all that defines it. Sandra has a
nice piece on public school on your own terms:
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice. But even that isn't unschooling. Unschooling
isn't pick and choose subjects, like "we are unschooling everything but reading,
she does reading assignments for an hour a day, but I trust her to get maths on
her own." Or " we are unschooling, I let them choose to stay on a subject for as
long as they want, once they've done their minimum work." That's possibly
eclectic homeschooling, some pasting of different approaches in the fear and the
hope that it will achieve a balanced and well educated adult who will achieve at
whatever levels in whatever fields they want.
Unschooling is a kind of game of trust. You keep closing your eyes and falling
back and hoping that the unschooling won't let you hit the floor. You keep
jumping off the ledge and hoping that the huge long fall that you see before you
is either an illusion or has a lovely warm and powerful updraft that will allow
you to drift gently to the earth. Lots of people come to the edge and try and
repel down, they hope that if they tie themselves on to the old system, the
seemingly tried and true system of schooled education, they can make the descent
a safer one. Unfortunately they are just handicapping themselves and they may
never make it anywhere except to the next ledge. The next ledge may be better
than at the upper edge, but it isn't as fabulous as all the way down here.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JJ
What does Saturday afternoon in July look like? It's not what you see or how it looks but what it feels like inside and how you think about it. Here's some (hopefully not tedious) personal snapshots in which I see the difference.
Are you part of an organized whirlwind European tour packed with predigested group activities all planned out by professionals and paid for in a lump sum and you just sign up and then do as you're told, stay on schedule, eat when and where the group eats, sleep when and where the group sleeps, etc.
If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium . . .
Or are you unschooling Europe?
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/favorite-daughter-wasnt-kidding/
"It's as they want it, flying solo, no family, chaperones or guides, not even a travel agent to help plan and book. Nobody told me truly individual unschooling would sometimes feel so radical. But maybe it's the parenting, period, and not any particular education method that feels like what my dad used to call the 'white-knuckle trip' through life as a parent of intelligent life on planet earth.
In the beginning there was Favorite Daughter and she gave me life as a mom . . .so this is THEIR story and in truth, I guess it always been. I am more audience than author.
And at least it's illustrated. :D"
SO yes, freedom and yes, parent involvement, but our always-unschooled daughter from the very beginning has been been deeply involved in her OWN life, even when as she often does, she chooses anotherwise standrad schoolish experience. Her very-unschooled trip to Europe one July grew organically out of a tightly regimented group dance trip she was experiencing her own way for her own reasons. (She wound up in college the same different-on-the-inside way, but let's not focus on traditional schooling while deschooling is the issue. Could be confusing.)
So Europe. This is how it started:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/unschooling-europe-unschooling-culture/
We were in a hotel room, on a trip with a larger group, thrown together as roommates by random assignment. Kiki, trying to be nice, pulled out a CD to play as we got ready to go out, and I got my first taste of Edith Piaf. Hers was a strangely enchanting music, not technically proficient or classically beautiful, but nonetheless compelling and rich.
"I like this," I remember saying, "What is it?"
**********
My involvement looked like this:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/next-chapter-in-which-favorite-daughter-received-her-own-first-passport/
"So she needed a passport and we had been reading about the months-long wait and all the extra wartime security checks, etc.
Right after Thanksgiving we went together to the local clerk's office, with all the stuff one needs, birth certificate and picture ID which in this case was her driver's license, etc. But then it turned out they can't take her learner's permit as a "real" driver's license . . ."
and also like this, as good for me as it was for her:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/jjs-beloved-gator-nation-makes-nyt-for-education-culture-history/
"We've been reading travel pieces because Favorite Daughter is off for Europe this summer, not on a group tour and not even with the help of a travel agent. She and a friend are doing it all themselves, learning about trains and planes, pickpockets and hostels, visas and VATs, as they go.
So I was reading this wonderful NYT piece about train travel for peaceful, non-commercial and educational green tourism through America on Amtrak as it happens, but still it's helping us picture what riding the Eurails might be like when I stumbled across travel power of story about my very own home town. . ."
************
And this is how it looked to her through her own eyes, in her own words from her dispatches home, on some amazing Saturday afternoons one July:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/favd-and-friend-name-their-favorite-scots/
"Then we went to a diner that has Breakfast All Day, and then we checked out the National Museum of Scotland, which is a top-notch institution, and let me tell you why: There is a "discovery zone" for kids on the first floor, which features what appears to be THE ACTUAL TAXIDERMIED CORPSE OF DOLLY THE SHEEP, ROTATING IN A GLASS CASE.
There are some historical things as well, but we were frankly very taken with Dolly, who is herself from just outside Edinburgh.. ."
Are you part of an organized whirlwind European tour packed with predigested group activities all planned out by professionals and paid for in a lump sum and you just sign up and then do as you're told, stay on schedule, eat when and where the group eats, sleep when and where the group sleeps, etc.
If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium . . .
Or are you unschooling Europe?
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/favorite-daughter-wasnt-kidding/
"It's as they want it, flying solo, no family, chaperones or guides, not even a travel agent to help plan and book. Nobody told me truly individual unschooling would sometimes feel so radical. But maybe it's the parenting, period, and not any particular education method that feels like what my dad used to call the 'white-knuckle trip' through life as a parent of intelligent life on planet earth.
In the beginning there was Favorite Daughter and she gave me life as a mom . . .so this is THEIR story and in truth, I guess it always been. I am more audience than author.
And at least it's illustrated. :D"
SO yes, freedom and yes, parent involvement, but our always-unschooled daughter from the very beginning has been been deeply involved in her OWN life, even when as she often does, she chooses anotherwise standrad schoolish experience. Her very-unschooled trip to Europe one July grew organically out of a tightly regimented group dance trip she was experiencing her own way for her own reasons. (She wound up in college the same different-on-the-inside way, but let's not focus on traditional schooling while deschooling is the issue. Could be confusing.)
So Europe. This is how it started:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/unschooling-europe-unschooling-culture/
We were in a hotel room, on a trip with a larger group, thrown together as roommates by random assignment. Kiki, trying to be nice, pulled out a CD to play as we got ready to go out, and I got my first taste of Edith Piaf. Hers was a strangely enchanting music, not technically proficient or classically beautiful, but nonetheless compelling and rich.
"I like this," I remember saying, "What is it?"
**********
My involvement looked like this:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2008/12/15/next-chapter-in-which-favorite-daughter-received-her-own-first-passport/
"So she needed a passport and we had been reading about the months-long wait and all the extra wartime security checks, etc.
Right after Thanksgiving we went together to the local clerk's office, with all the stuff one needs, birth certificate and picture ID which in this case was her driver's license, etc. But then it turned out they can't take her learner's permit as a "real" driver's license . . ."
and also like this, as good for me as it was for her:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/jjs-beloved-gator-nation-makes-nyt-for-education-culture-history/
"We've been reading travel pieces because Favorite Daughter is off for Europe this summer, not on a group tour and not even with the help of a travel agent. She and a friend are doing it all themselves, learning about trains and planes, pickpockets and hostels, visas and VATs, as they go.
So I was reading this wonderful NYT piece about train travel for peaceful, non-commercial and educational green tourism through America on Amtrak as it happens, but still it's helping us picture what riding the Eurails might be like when I stumbled across travel power of story about my very own home town. . ."
************
And this is how it looked to her through her own eyes, in her own words from her dispatches home, on some amazing Saturday afternoons one July:
http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/favd-and-friend-name-their-favorite-scots/
"Then we went to a diner that has Breakfast All Day, and then we checked out the National Museum of Scotland, which is a top-notch institution, and let me tell you why: There is a "discovery zone" for kids on the first floor, which features what appears to be THE ACTUAL TAXIDERMIED CORPSE OF DOLLY THE SHEEP, ROTATING IN A GLASS CASE.
There are some historical things as well, but we were frankly very taken with Dolly, who is herself from just outside Edinburgh.. ."
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I have heard unschooling be described as 'Saturday afternoon in
> July'. What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of look
> like day to day?
Joyce Fetteroll
> One thing I keep thinking back to: what is the unschooling you talkThe difference is in whether the agenda for the activities is about
> about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations. I have
> read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activities
> planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
moving the kids from where they are to where the parents feel they
should go or whether it's about who the kids are right now.
The difference is whether the parents are planning activities because
that's what they're supposed to do or whether the activities are in
response to their kids' interests and needs.
Are the parents listening to voices in their heads about what an
unschooling parents should be doing or are they getting to know their
kids and responding to their kids ways of exploring.
A caveat, though, is that kids don't have a lot of experience with
what exists in the world so they can't ask for what they don't know
exists. So, as a supplemental fuel, parents should be strewing their
lives with things they honestly believe might interest the kids. Not
things that will be "good for them". Anything they believe their kids
might find interesting. Sandra has a good page on strewing:
http://sandradodd.com/strewing
*And* the parents should be interested and interesting themselves.
Cultivating a fascination with life is a big boon to unschooling.
> You also said that some define unschooling at giving a childDid you mean the quote from Pat Farenga? That unschooling is giving
> freedom -
> and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
> because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
> zone is not being stretched?
kids as much
freedom as a parent can comfortably bear?
Schuyler covered that but I have heard others describe unschooling as
giving children full freedom. I think that's very misleading.
A *piece* of unschooling is providing a rich environment where kids
can explore their interests and discover new interests. But that puts
the parents in the background as providers of the environment. Parents
should be
A bigger piece of unschooling is parents -- though usually mom --
being connected to the kids. Being with them to know who they are,
understand enough about their interests to participate or at least
have a conversation, to see the world through their eyes. An
unschooling parent has chosen unschooling because she want to be her
children's partner in their explorations. It shouldn't be about this
"idea" that will let kids grow up better than in school. It's not a
thing to be done to them like school. It's about connecting with them.
It's about growing better relationships with them. It's about creating
an environment where their interests and your relationships and
connections with them can grow.
> I have heard unschooling be described as 'Saturday afternoon inThat's one example and can work to help someone picture unschooling if
> July'.
someone's Saturday afternoons are spent engaged with their kids, but
shouldn't be seen as the final definition.
My Saturday afternoons in July as a child were spent watching old
movies or playing outside because my mom was busy with housework and
my dad mowing the lawn. Our job as kids was to go off and be kids.
Unschooling is way more than that.
*Sometimes* a child will want to watch movies or play outside. But
that choice should be made from a variety of opportunities in and out
of the house, with and without parents.
> What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of lookSandra has a page of typical days. The thing about "typical" days that
> like day to day? This is the question I find most pressing.
people write about is they tend to be special enough to prompt someone
to write about them ;-) So not every day will be full of obvious
learning and connections. But every day should be rich with
possibilities for the kids to choose from.
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Unschooling is about creating a day of possibilities and allowing the
children's interest be the rudder. Sometimes it will look like a day
spent at home playing video games. Sometimes it will be a day spent
out and about. Sometimes it will be a specific something like a trip
to a park or the zoo.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
> One thing I keep thinking back to: what is the unschooling you talkThe fundamental basis of unschooling is the idea that people (including children) learn as a natural result of living life, that while people may choose to be taught, learning does not require teaching. Motivation to learn is an essential part of our human nature.
> about? Clearly, there are many differing interpretations.
It can help, when the lists get off on tangents and people start describing what will help unschooling, to go back and touch base with that fundamental. Kids don't "need to learn" kids learn, by nature.
There's a handy page of principles which help learning here:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/principles
I have
> read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts of activitiesWhat is the purpose of all those activities? Is it to entice your child to learn or to support that natural drive toward exploration and discovery? If "activities" are set out/planned with a specific agenda or expectation, that's a kind of school at home - there's an underlying curriculum in mom's head, even if she's winging the details.
> planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school at home?
We get a catalog from Dover books regularly, and order things now and then. Mo likes to look at catalogs, and sometimes will go through and circle things. As I have the money, I'll go through and get things she wants, but I'll also look and see if there are other things she might like. This last time I got her a book on hand shadow games since she enjoys that kind of fun. Last night I pointed out an article in National Geographic about dinosaur feathers because she likes dinosaurs and also recently watched a BBC series about birds.
> You also said that some define unschooling at giving a child freedom -I think it has more to do with the fact that "freedom" is a pretty vague term! It can mean anything from "the blue sweater or the red one" to "tear down the house, I don't care." It's not a very useful word.
> and that this is different from the radical unschooling... Is this
> because in this other definition of unschooling, the parent's comfort
> zone is not being stretched?
Learning happens best when a person is choosing what to focus on, what to learn. So it's helpful to set kids up with things from which to choose, *and* it's helpful to get out of the way and let them choose, *and* it's helpful to be engaged and involved in whatever manner is comfortable/fun for your child. REcently Mo has been building motorized K'nex kits and sometimes needs help getting all the bits to line up right so the thing will actually work. That's not "giving her freedom" in the sense of stepping back, it's helping her get what she wants. Similarly, the other day Ray wanted to cook something in the crock-pot but didn't realize how Long it would take to cook - so I let him know that his stew wouldn't be done in time for dinner if he did it that way. That wasn't "giving him freedom" or even letting him choose what to learn, it was offering him a valuable piece of information out of kindness.
But in both those examples you can see that relationship issues play a big part in learning - and that's why discussions of radical unschooling (unschooling at its most fundamental) often focus on the relationship. When parents are kind and thoughtful, learning flows more freely.
> I have heard unschooling be described as 'Saturday afternoon inIt looks different on different days in different homes. I've included a few small examples in this post, but here's a page of collected typical days:
> July'. What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of look
> like day to day?
http://sandradodd.com/typical
---Meredith
JJ
I didn't make one thing explicit, that I had intended to add. When I was a young childless grad student working in the schools and my kid sister was a community college student, she signed up for a summer European group tour with her humanities class and asked me to be a chaperone. It turned out to be the only trip to Europe I ever got (I'm now 56 with bad knees that wouldn't let me enjoy sightseeing.)
It was different not for the sights seen or because the schedule was fixed. We went to most of the same cities and cathedrals and museums that Favorite Daughter wound up seeing on her own trip 30 years later. The difference I can see now, is that those schooled young travelers (including my sister) were passive and half-bored the whole time, as if they would be tested on the facts and figures presented by each endless lesson from the local authority. I'm not sure even Dolly the Sheep would have interested them much. I remember the rivalry for seats on the bus each morning and all the enthusiasm for finding out which country didn't have a drinking age, and for finding a discoteque in Firenzi (Florence) so they could get away from the teacher-leader for a night. No one was excited about the Oxford bookstores on Fleet Street in London, except me. I couldn't get anyone who actually wantesd to go with me, to Shakespeare in the Round in Hyde Park on a rare free evening -- they all went shopping.
It wasn't Europe that was different but what was inside them, what they had learned from what they'd been taught and what they were determined to make their own any way they could even if it wasn't what you would have wanted for them . . .
It was different not for the sights seen or because the schedule was fixed. We went to most of the same cities and cathedrals and museums that Favorite Daughter wound up seeing on her own trip 30 years later. The difference I can see now, is that those schooled young travelers (including my sister) were passive and half-bored the whole time, as if they would be tested on the facts and figures presented by each endless lesson from the local authority. I'm not sure even Dolly the Sheep would have interested them much. I remember the rivalry for seats on the bus each morning and all the enthusiasm for finding out which country didn't have a drinking age, and for finding a discoteque in Firenzi (Florence) so they could get away from the teacher-leader for a night. No one was excited about the Oxford bookstores on Fleet Street in London, except me. I couldn't get anyone who actually wantesd to go with me, to Shakespeare in the Round in Hyde Park on a rare free evening -- they all went shopping.
It wasn't Europe that was different but what was inside them, what they had learned from what they'd been taught and what they were determined to make their own any way they could even if it wasn't what you would have wanted for them . . .
--- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> What does Saturday afternoon in July look like? It's not what you see or how it looks but what it feels like inside and how you think about it. Here's some (hopefully not tedious) personal snapshots in which I see the difference.
>
> Are you part of an organized whirlwind European tour packed with predigested group activities all planned out by professionals and paid for in a lump sum and you just sign up and then do as you're told, stay on schedule, eat when and where the group eats, sleep when and where the group sleeps, etc.
> If it's Tuesday this must be Belgium . . .
>
> Or are you unschooling Europe?
> http://cockingasnook.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/favorite-daughter-wasnt-kidding/
>
Debra Rossing
> I have read that there is nothing wrong with having all sorts ofactivities planned, and so I wonder, how is this different from school
at home?
It's the difference between your friend/partner *requiring* you to
accompany them to a play, restaurant, concert, movie regardless of
whether you want to at that time or not and them offering a play,
dinner, concert, movie and giving you the option of saying yes, no, not
tonight but maybe Thursday would be better... Planning/offering an
activity is very different than mandating that activity. Schools
*require* that a, b, c get done in that order on that day in that
matter. Unschooling says "a, b, c are available, when/where/how do you
want to explore them (or not)"
> What does the deeply involved unschooling you speak of look like dayto day?
What does a loving, caring partnership between any two humans look like
day to day? One of the big concepts in radical unschooling is removing
the "I'm an adult, you're a kid, so I know best and you do what I say"
relationship (where age confers power/control) and "I am your partner, I
have been around longer so here's a bit of wisdom I've gleaned over time
that might be useful to you" (where age confers wisdom and the ability
to defer to the less-experienced party).
Deb R
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Debra Rossing
> You keep jumping off the ledge and hoping that the huge long fall thatyou see before you is either an illusion or has a lovely warm and
powerful updraft that will allow
you to drift gently to the earth. Lots of people come to the edge and
try and repel down, they hope that if they tie themselves on to the old
system, the seemingly tried and true system of schooled education, they
can make the descent a safer one. Unfortunately they are just
handicapping themselves and they may never make it anywhere except to
the next ledge. The next ledge may be better than at the upper edge, but
it isn't as fabulous as all the way down here.
A favorite image of this is from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when
he comes out of a tunnel onto what appears to be a shear drop with no
way across to the other side. It requires that he trust and take that
step off the cliff. When he does, he finds that it is a bridge that is
designed to optically blend with the far wall of the crevice so that it
appears to be non-existent but is actually solidly built. It's only when
he tosses a handful of sandy grit out that it becomes obvious that he's
not walking on air but rather there's a bridge there. The next people to
come through stop short at the apparently yawning gap but then they see
the sand strewn along the bridge and step out.
That's kind of like this (and other) radical unschooling message groups
and websites - someone(s) somewhere came to that cliff and stepped off
and found that there was a way across. They've strewn (and are strewing)
gravel back along the bridge to let folks know that the bridge exists.
But, each person needs to take that first step out into the seeming
abyss for his/her self.
Deb R
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naturalchildproject
My article "Deschooling a Parent: Learning to Trust" may be helpful:
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/deschooling.html
Jan
Jan Hunt, M.Sc., Director
Natural Child Project
http://www.naturalchild.org
Follow me on Twitter: @janbaronhunt
The Unschooling Unmanual
http://www.naturalchild.org/unmanual
"Change the world - nurture a child."
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/deschooling.html
Jan
Jan Hunt, M.Sc., Director
Natural Child Project
http://www.naturalchild.org
Follow me on Twitter: @janbaronhunt
The Unschooling Unmanual
http://www.naturalchild.org/unmanual
"Change the world - nurture a child."
jrossedd
I hold a doctorate in education (plus a couple of master's degrees in field) and 20 years of experience -- should I too, charge for my priceless unschooling advice and is there some accepted sliding scale where I would charge more than the rates listed for a counselor with one master's degree? (Never mind Joyce et al -- who could afford what they're surely worth?!)
But what helps children more, I seriously wonder, having parents pay by the minute for proven ideas and inspiration or offering it freely as we each do here? Is there some "you get what you pay for" presumption at work?
http://www.naturalchild.org/counseling/
Prepay for Counseling
15 minutes: $25 Add to Cart
30 minutes: $45 Add to Cart
60 minutes: $85 Add to Cart
New: Two 60-minute
sessions: $150 Add to Cart
Payment can be made by credit card or PayPal.
Counseling may be covered by insurance - check with your agent.
But what helps children more, I seriously wonder, having parents pay by the minute for proven ideas and inspiration or offering it freely as we each do here? Is there some "you get what you pay for" presumption at work?
http://www.naturalchild.org/counseling/
Prepay for Counseling
15 minutes: $25 Add to Cart
30 minutes: $45 Add to Cart
60 minutes: $85 Add to Cart
New: Two 60-minute
sessions: $150 Add to Cart
Payment can be made by credit card or PayPal.
Counseling may be covered by insurance - check with your agent.
--- In [email protected], "naturalchildproject" <jan@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> My article "Deschooling a Parent: Learning to Trust" may be helpful:
> http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/deschooling.html
>
> Jan
>
> Jan Hunt, M.Sc., Director
> Natural Child Project
> http://www.naturalchild.org
> Follow me on Twitter: @janbaronhunt
>
> The Unschooling Unmanual
> http://www.naturalchild.org/unmanual
>
> "Change the world - nurture a child."
>