Tori Otero

Hello to everyone

My names Tori, I live in Manchester uk with my partner Matt and two of
my (our) three sons, Luciano who is almost 17 and Charlie who is six. My
other son Fabrizio is 13 and lives with his dad.

We began Homeschooling Charlie back in Febuary this year. Initially we
thought it important to to take advice to deschool and we also resisted
making contact with other HE's as we wanted to find our own way.

We had read some of John Holts work and especially liked A S Neill's
educational philosophy and visited Summerhill twice. Myself and my
partner had both lived in a democratic community and both feel strongly
that children are able to make decisions and choices that are right for
them and that we are their to support them when needed. We also
acknowledged that we have been brought up in families and a society (in
which we still live) that doesn't support this way of living. We knew
it was about sitting back and managing our anxieties, saying and doing
less.

Well thats the theory over with.....now for the reality.....back in Feb
we tried being more laid back, not restricting TV, or controlling food,
tho we still had managed bedtimes and managed our timetable. We
experimented with differing levels of autonomy....very much dependent on
how much anxiety we could manage (how well we did at silencing the voice
in our heads that said we we're being neglectful), things we're going
well, Charlie seemed happy and content painting and playing with his
figures in the garage or playing with lego. He would move between
different interests, these intense experiences lasting for a couple of
weeks. About four weeks ago we lifted decided to embrace the
'unschooling' philosophy, we lifted and are committed to no restrictions
with TV, Food and bedtimes.

Charlie seems to have embraced his freedom, and lets us know when we
don't get it right. We are finding it a struggle as his expression has
become louder and more intense, (I feel that he is testing our resolve
and asking whether he really has freedom and choice), we are learning
loads about each other and ourselves....Charlie doesn't want to go out
very much at all, I try suggesting different activities I think he may
like, ....I think he needs to be in control at the moment and there is
no room to negotiate....I know that he has the language and the
understanding and I'm trying hard not to see his behaviour and
resistance as pathological (I come from a psychology background) but as
him being assertive, so I've backed off, and we are committed to not
forcing him to go out for his 'own good' I have done quite a lot of
reading but there is very little about how children have found the
transition between the different ways of living and working. Obviously
each child is an individual and I suppose I'm looking for some
reasurrance. I have this fantasy of us exploring life together, living
and working together, being on a journey together. I don't expect this
to be conflict free, but selfishly and impatiently I want it sooner, (I
realise that I should drop this expectation and go with the flow more).

Sorry for the lengthy post and thanks to anyone who takes time to read it
xxxx Tori xx

plaidpanties666

Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>We are finding it a struggle as his expression has
> become louder and more intense, (I feel that he is testing our resolve
> and asking whether he really has freedom and choice)

Sure, he wants to know if you're "serious" - and he wants to know just how much safety he has to express things that are important to him. How much can he trust you? After all, you've changed your tune about a number of things recently, so your trustworthiness is open to question at the moment. You'll need some time to win his trust without falling back on *arbitrary* rules and limits.

Arbitrary is the important word, there - Your boundaries are still important, even as you stretch them to support your son and help meet his needs. I don't know what you mean by "intense" but now and then parents think they need to drop all their personal boundaries and let kids hit them or break furniture - that's not helpful either!

>>I think he needs to be in control at the moment and there is
> no room to negotiate....

In a way, you've only just started to deschool. For all the very good advice about easing in to unschooling, some kids are very all-or-nothing in their perceptions for awhile. So even though you've been working hard at easing in, from your son's perception you didn't really start unschooling until you let go these last few things - so he hadn't started deschooling yet, he was just adapting to the new curriculum.

If he likes to be in control, offer him lots of chances to do that - everything possible. Try to get a sense of whether "control" is about feeling independent or feeling supported, too - that can help in terms of knowing what to offer and when. Chances are he wants exactly what he wants when he wants it, but its also likely you can anticipate a good deal of that by watching for patterns.

>>I know that he has the language and the
> understanding and I'm trying hard not to see his behaviour and
> resistance as pathological

Step back from the idea that "he has the language and understanding". Adults fall easily into the trap of treating language as the most important part of communication, but with younger kids it can help a whole lot to see *behavior* as the important part. His actions are communicating his wants and needs and feelings. Your job, in terms of communication, is learning to understand what he's "saying". If his behavior is intense, he's feeling something very strongly! And before now, he didn't have permission to tell you in this way, so he may have a whoooole lot of feelings "stored up" as it were.

> I have done quite a lot of
> reading but there is very little about how children have found the
> transition between the different ways of living and working.

There's a lot written, but its hard to tease out because a whole lot of what is written on the majority of radical unschooling lists Is about exactly this process. Rather than looking for specifics it could be better to simply read with that in mind, see who else has similar questions and issues to yours. Lots of people run into issues of control, for instance, in a whooooole lot of different ways - the thread about belly-button piercing just as much as a thread about television or food or "getting out of the house".

>I have this fantasy of us exploring life together, living
> and working together, being on a journey together.

I've found it helpful, over the years, to invite those fantasies in for a cup of tea and then say goodbye to them- grieve a little for the loss of my fantasy life with my fantasy kids and then refocus on my real family.

Stepping away from the fantasy, you're already doing those things - they just don't look quite the way you'd imagined.

---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 17, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Tori Otero wrote:

> (I feel that he is testing our resolve
> and asking whether he really has freedom and choice)

He might also be feeling off balance. In a way you've scooped him up
from a land where he knew what the rules were and what was expected of
him and what he could expect of you and dumped him in a foreign land
where the customs are strange and the signs barely understandable.

You know how some parents say "I'm doing this because I love you,"
about a rule or a no to something a kid wants? If you take away the
nos and the rules it can feel like you don't care any more.

That's not a way of saying return to the old ways but just a
suggestion of what he might be struggling through with the new deal.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tori Otero

Thanks Meredith for your reply to my post. You are absolutely right my
trustworthiness is open to question at the moment, and I acknowledge
that I'm not getting it right all the time, not so much with 'arbitrary
' rules but more because I am not as in tune with his 'wants, needs and
feelings ' his behaviour is communicating.

Your observation and comments on this have really helped to support our
thinking. We had understood from an interaction last night in which
Charlie had become more and more frustrated with our inability to
understand what was going on for him. On reflection we began to
understand his need for us to do the work to understand him and his
needs, rather than an expectation that he should have the tools to
communicate and manage the situation. After doing so much therapy I
recognize the need to have someone understand my needs and meet them
without me asking, which was left over from the unmet needs of my own
childhood. I'm hoping that I will handle this differently than my mother
handled this, and listen and learn...and make the changes I need to make.

We are trying to provide lots of opportunities where he can feel in
'control', I think that he needs to feel 'supported' alot right now, to
have his needs met and his vulnerability accepted, spends a lot of time
sat on my knee, wants me to get him things food, be showing that he is
still dependent and wants us to meet his needs. He has started to
communicate in non verbal ways, he has also started to want to have
baths with me again. I think he needs to be indulged and I'm working at
doing that altho I sometimes feel controlled, I'm able to hold onto this
knowledge that this is helpful for him.

He is very keen on fairness and equality, which is fair enough and
complains loudly if we fall back into double standards. When I say
intense i mostly mean becoming 'shouty', 'name calling', I do feel he is
scared by some of the strong reactions(feelings) he is experiencing now
(as they are not controlled externally by threats of punishment) he has
tried to hit me and I have held my boundaries...(he knows that he has
control and could hit without the fear of punishment) I offered him the
choice to continue to hit me....(not sure if this is a great way to deal
with it? but it worked) he stopped immediately when he realised he had
control.

Amongst all this complexity in our journey, I would also like to
acknowledge how lovely, kind, empathic and gentle Charlie is.

Thanks for the support, it has really helped me to value our 'real'
journey together, and I love it.
All good wishes Tori


plaidpanties666 wrote:
>
> Tori Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
> >We are finding it a struggle as his expression has
> > become louder and more intense, (I feel that he is testing our resolve
> > and asking whether he really has freedom and choice)
>
> Sure, he wants to know if you're "serious" - and he wants to know just
> how much safety he has to express things that are important to him.
> How much can he trust you? After all, you've changed your tune about a
> number of things recently, so your trustworthiness is open to question
> at the moment. You'll need some time to win his trust without falling
> back on *arbitrary* rules and limits.
>
> Arbitrary is the important word, there - Your boundaries are still
> important, even as you stretch them to support your son and help meet
> his needs. I don't know what you mean by "intense" but now and then
> parents think they need to drop all their personal boundaries and let
> kids hit them or break furniture - that's not helpful either!
>
> >>I think he needs to be in control at the moment and there is
> > no room to negotiate....
>
> In a way, you've only just started to deschool. For all the very good
> advice about easing in to unschooling, some kids are very
> all-or-nothing in their perceptions for awhile. So even though you've
> been working hard at easing in, from your son's perception you didn't
> really start unschooling until you let go these last few things - so
> he hadn't started deschooling yet, he was just adapting to the new
> curriculum.
>
> If he likes to be in control, offer him lots of chances to do that -
> everything possible. Try to get a sense of whether "control" is about
> feeling independent or feeling supported, too - that can help in terms
> of knowing what to offer and when. Chances are he wants exactly what
> he wants when he wants it, but its also likely you can anticipate a
> good deal of that by watching for patterns.
>
> >>I know that he has the language and the
> > understanding and I'm trying hard not to see his behaviour and
> > resistance as pathological
>
> Step back from the idea that "he has the language and understanding".
> Adults fall easily into the trap of treating language as the most
> important part of communication, but with younger kids it can help a
> whole lot to see *behavior* as the important part. His actions are
> communicating his wants and needs and feelings. Your job, in terms of
> communication, is learning to understand what he's "saying". If his
> behavior is intense, he's feeling something very strongly! And before
> now, he didn't have permission to tell you in this way, so he may have
> a whoooole lot of feelings "stored up" as it were.
>
> > I have done quite a lot of
> > reading but there is very little about how children have found the
> > transition between the different ways of living and working.
>
> There's a lot written, but its hard to tease out because a whole lot
> of what is written on the majority of radical unschooling lists Is
> about exactly this process. Rather than looking for specifics it could
> be better to simply read with that in mind, see who else has similar
> questions and issues to yours. Lots of people run into issues of
> control, for instance, in a whooooole lot of different ways - the
> thread about belly-button piercing just as much as a thread about
> television or food or "getting out of the house".
>
> >I have this fantasy of us exploring life together, living
> > and working together, being on a journey together.
>
> I've found it helpful, over the years, to invite those fantasies in
> for a cup of tea and then say goodbye to them- grieve a little for the
> loss of my fantasy life with my fantasy kids and then refocus on my
> real family.
>
> Stepping away from the fantasy, you're already doing those things -
> they just don't look quite the way you'd imagined.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 17)
>
>

Tori Otero

Hi Joyce
Thank you for the empathic understanding of Charlie's position, it is
really useful and has put me in touch with what he is likely to be
experiencing. I think it entirely possible that he is feeling off
balance, I feel very much aware of the responsibility I have. For this
reason I'm glad it has taken us a while to begin to embrace these ideas,
before putting them into practice....this means that we are committed
however it has still been and continues to be somewhat destabilizing
especially for Charlie. (No wonder he wants to be at home, there's
enough to get to grips with in our own home and within our
relationships, I think he has the right idea)

I can see that he may be questioning whether we care...everything in his
world up until now has defined 'caring loving' parents as controlling
coercive parents. He is still friends with children who are at
school..who are immersed in this way of thinking. My eldest son Luc
feels uncomfortable with our permissiveness...sometimes perceiving it as
neglectful (not correcting Charlie or forcing him to get dressed.)

I think it has been this very thought (that I may be being 'neglectful'
or others may think I am) that lead me to parent in a way that was not
comfortable or authentic. My confidence has grown and I am now able to
talk with, explain reassure and apologise to Luc.

Really appreciate your comments
All good wishes
Tori


Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2010, at 7:22 AM, Tori Otero wrote:
>
> > (I feel that he is testing our resolve
> > and asking whether he really has freedom and choice)
>
> He might also be feeling off balance. In a way you've scooped him up
> from a land where he knew what the rules were and what was expected of
> him and what he could expect of you and dumped him in a foreign land
> where the customs are strange and the signs barely understandable.
>
> You know how some parents say "I'm doing this because I love you,"
> about a rule or a no to something a kid wants? If you take away the
> nos and the rules it can feel like you don't care any more.
>
> That's not a way of saying return to the old ways but just a
> suggestion of what he might be struggling through with the new deal.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Tori Otero

plaidpanties666 wrote:
>
>
>
> >Sure, he wants to know if you're "serious" - and he wants to know
> just how much safety he has to express things that are important to
> him. How >much can he trust you? After all, you've changed your tune
> about a number of things recently, so your trustworthiness is open to
> question at the >moment. You'll need some time to win his trust
> without falling back on *arbitrary* rules.
>
I was talking to Charlie before he went to sleep tonight, I gently
acknowledged the impact the changes we have made might be having, and
how this might lead him to want to test whether our new way of 'living'
would change again or if it was her to stay. He said that he forgave me,
but that it would take time to earn his trust. I offered him the
reassurance that we would be working hard to do so. It is amazing that
he was able to articulate this so well and that he felt able to say this....
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Step back from the idea that "he has the language and understanding".
> Adults fall easily into the trap of treating language as the most
> >important part of communication, but with younger kids it can help a
> whole lot to see *behavior* as the important part. His actions are
> >communicating his wants and needs and feelings. Your job, in terms of
> communication, is learning to understand what he's "saying". If his
> >behavior is intense, he's feeling something very strongly! And before
> now, he didn't have permission to tell you in this way, so he may have
> a >whoooole lot of feelings "stored up" as it were.
>
Charlie has an empty pin board on the wall next to his bed, he used the
pins to represent the members of our family, and the levels of trust in
each relationship. It seemed really useful for him to have a something
concrete to aid his expression. I had wanted to ask for your feedback
about creating something designed for Charlie to use in this way and in
the course of writing this e mail the answer came to me...that it could
have the effect of de valuing his way of doing it...and that I should
sit back and wait....

Thanks Tori
>
>
>
>
>
>
>