flyingtwinsmom

I was a very school at home mom until this past Feb. when I dropped it all and started enjoying my girls. We've had good times and bad since then. I've tried to do lots with them, but over the summer, they spent more time with ps friends just hanging out. Since the schools have all started again, I've just gone on with life and not said anything to the girls. We started going to the library again, and they actually have started listening to me read to them which they hated last year. But they came to me 2 days ago and said they wanted to "do school" again. We talked about what they meant (they want workbooks and they want classes) and we talked about why (they were made to feel stupid by other kids because they can't read or spell well). I told them that I know that these things will come to them. They just don't know it right now. I've pointed out how much they have been doing in other areas. But they are sure they want to do school. I told them I will do whatever they want. Is that wrong?

I get the feeling that they will burn out on this pretty quickly, but I'm stuck. I can't not do this and I'm worried it will set back deschooling if we do. I set them free on all the old workbooks I had and I have done my best the last 2 days to "play school" with them, but to keep them interested in doing other things also. I am not setting any goals for this, but am letting them lead.

So all that background to ask, what should I do? LOL Am I really hurting our unschooling efforts by playing along? Part of me wants to latch onto this opportunity to teach, but I've been working so hard to drop that type of thought. I did mention to them about unschooling and promised to go to the gathering in OH so they could meet other unschoolers. They seemed excited about that idea. I'm also trying to find some unschoolers that we could make day/weekend trips to meet. Our budget is blown for anything major. I'm also trying to find new and interesting things to do and places to go. Please talk me through this.
Thanks

lylaw

>>Part of me wants to latch onto this opportunity to teach,

THIS part will set you back. but if you are just facilitating them doing workbooks if that's what they want to do, I don't think that alone will set you back. just be careful that you don't start to value that approach and elevate its importance. also, I assume you aren't requiring them to do it, or pressuring them to finish anything, etc.

lyla




From: flyingtwinsmom
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 5:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] they want to do school??? help



I was a very school at home mom until this past Feb. when I dropped it all and started enjoying my girls. We've had good times and bad since then. I've tried to do lots with them, but over the summer, they spent more time with ps friends just hanging out. Since the schools have all started again, I've just gone on with life and not said anything to the girls. We started going to the library again, and they actually have started listening to me read to them which they hated last year. But they came to me 2 days ago and said they wanted to "do school" again. We talked about what they meant (they want workbooks and they want classes) and we talked about why (they were made to feel stupid by other kids because they can't read or spell well). I told them that I know that these things will come to them. They just don't know it right now. I've pointed out how much they have been doing in other areas. But they are sure they want to do school. I told them I will do whatever they want. Is that wrong?

I get the feeling that they will burn out on this pretty quickly, but I'm stuck. I can't not do this and I'm worried it will set back deschooling if we do. I set them free on all the old workbooks I had and I have done my best the last 2 days to "play school" with them, but to keep them interested in doing other things also. I am not setting any goals for this, but am letting them lead.

So all that background to ask, what should I do? LOL Am I really hurting our unschooling efforts by playing along? Part of me wants to latch onto this opportunity to teach, but I've been working so hard to drop that type of thought. I did mention to them about unschooling and promised to go to the gathering in OH so they could meet other unschoolers. They seemed excited about that idea. I'm also trying to find some unschoolers that we could make day/weekend trips to meet. Our budget is blown for anything major. I'm also trying to find new and interesting things to do and places to go. Please talk me through this.
Thanks







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

flyingtwinsmom

--- In [email protected], "lylaw" <lylaw@...> wrote:
> also, I assume you aren't requiring them to do it, or pressuring >them to finish anything, etc.
>
> lyla


Actually, just the opposite. I've tried to stress to them that they don't need to do every problem on a page in the math book if they understand the concept. They are both perfectionists so they don't think they are "doing it right" if they aren't doing all of it. Oh and they want me to grade it. Yikes!! :)

unschoolingmom66

Hello, My sons have been unschooled for the past 6 years. My oldest (who is 13) went to kindergarten but has been happily unschooled ever since. My youngest (10) never attended school at all. Interestingly it is my youngest who will occasionally ask to 'do school.' Usually this means workbooks. We've made trips to Barnes & Noble on whim because my son wants to use them. I find my youngest tends be more affected/influenced by his traditionally schooled friends, and he worries at times that he is not doing enough 'school' after being around friends who are not unschoolers. My oldest on the other hand, is very much an independent thinker and is happy doing his own thing. So, when a request comes in from my youngest(maybe once a year) to 'do school' we go to the bookstore and my son chooses a workbook or two (or 7!), and we go home and play with them. He might do a few pages one day and never go back to them and that satisfies him. Sometimes I think he just wants to know if he can do school work that would be age appropriate for someone who is actually in school (again, I think being around other children who go to school, or do more traditional school-at-home makes him curious or even a bit anxious about whether he 'knows enough'). My youngest undertands unschooling philosophy (from a very young age I would hear him explain to people, without ever being coached by me, that he 'learns by life'). But yet he does tend to compare himself with other children .... so if buying a few workbooks makes him happy and squashes his worries that he doesn't 'know enough' (believe me, we've talked about how much he already knows even without workbooks) then I am more than happy to provide them. Hope this helps.. I explain all of this as a comparison- my son has never been to school yet still asks to 'to school'.

Ann

I think this is part of unschooling. Just like if a child from an unschool home wants to go to school. It's part of their unscool education if the child is the one who wants to do this and is not being forced to do any of it.

Ann

--- In [email protected], "flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>
> I was a very school at home mom until this past Feb. when I dropped it all and started enjoying my girls. We've had good times and bad since then. I've tried to do lots with them, but over the summer, they spent more time with ps friends just hanging out. Since the schools have all started again, I've just gone on with life and not said anything to the girls. We started going to the library again, and they actually have started listening to me read to them which they hated last year. But they came to me 2 days ago and said they wanted to "do school" again. We talked about what they meant (they want workbooks and they want classes) and we talked about why (they were made to feel stupid by other kids because they can't read or spell well). I told them that I know that these things will come to them. They just don't know it right now. I've pointed out how much they have been doing in other areas. But they are sure they want to do school. I told them I will do whatever they want. Is that wrong?
>
> I get the feeling that they will burn out on this pretty quickly, but I'm stuck. I can't not do this and I'm worried it will set back deschooling if we do. I set them free on all the old workbooks I had and I have done my best the last 2 days to "play school" with them, but to keep them interested in doing other things also. I am not setting any goals for this, but am letting them lead.
>
> So all that background to ask, what should I do? LOL Am I really hurting our unschooling efforts by playing along? Part of me wants to latch onto this opportunity to teach, but I've been working so hard to drop that type of thought. I did mention to them about unschooling and promised to go to the gathering in OH so they could meet other unschoolers. They seemed excited about that idea. I'm also trying to find some unschoolers that we could make day/weekend trips to meet. Our budget is blown for anything major. I'm also trying to find new and interesting things to do and places to go. Please talk me through this.
> Thanks
>

[email protected]

Facilitating their interests doesn't mean you can't offer other things as well. And instead of being sneaky about getting some "real" learning done, you can be sneaky about luring them into a nice walk in the park or a trip to the zoo. :)

And how long could the workbook thing take every day anyway? Do it and get it done and then get on with the rest of life.

As real life becomes more interesting and reading and other skills kick in without the school pressure, the "joys" of school at home will fade.

You could also suggest a few answers your children could give to smart-ass kids at the park who know it all and know what your kids should know.

Nance



--- In [email protected], "flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "lylaw" <lylaw@> wrote:
> > also, I assume you aren't requiring them to do it, or pressuring >them to finish anything, etc.
> >
> > lyla
>
>
> Actually, just the opposite. I've tried to stress to them that they don't need to do every problem on a page in the math book if they understand the concept. They are both perfectionists so they don't think they are "doing it right" if they aren't doing all of it. Oh and they want me to grade it. Yikes!! :)
>

plaidpanties666

"flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>
> I was a very school at home mom until this past Feb.

Its likely that to some degree they've learned to associate "doing school" with love and care - even if y'all were fighting about it, they were getting the message that you were pushing Because you loved them. Those kinds of insidious messages can be challenging to move beyond and heal from.

Have you talked with them at all about why you stopped? That might help some but as a result of homeschooling their trust in your say-so is also diminished to some extent, too. They're more willing to listen to peers than to you. If you can find other unschoolers or even laid-back homeschoolers that could help.

>>Part of me wants to latch onto this opportunity to teach

As Lyla said, that will get in the way more than workbooks. "Playing" school with them is a good idea - keep Your focus on "play"!

Did they do workbooks when y'all were homeschooling? It may be that unschooling is such a stretch that they're a little lost and confused, wondering what they "should" be doing. It could help, in the sense of "easing into unschooling" to suggest they do something like a "unit study" as an alternative to the workbook thing - but honestly, I'd wait a couple months before suggesting that to see what happens. The first summer after starting to deschool often sets kids back to square one in terms of deschooling - ironic, huh? But its amazing how often that happens. Go on playing school for now and see if they get tired of it. If they start not wanting to do workbooks but are still wanting something "schoolish" then look for a project for all of you to work on together.

---Meredith

plaidpanties666

"Ann" <auntannies2002@...> wrote:
>> I think this is part of unschooling.

Not really. Kids who've unschooled from the start will be curious about school and may want to try it or play with workbooks the same way they would a coloring-and-activity book. This is more a deschooling issue - kids adjusting to the idea that "schooling" isn't something they need, necessarily.

>> It's part of their unscool education if the child is the one who wants to do this and is not being forced to do any of it.
***************

"Unschool education" is such an oxymoron I don't know what to do with it! Long time unschoolers who choose school nearly always do it for social aspects - sometimes for the chance to do things like sports or theater if there aren't any other ways to do those thing in their area. But its possible for kids to never really deschool, and more likely if parents haven't deschooled and fall prey to the temptation to teach when kids express uncertainty about natural learning.

---Meredith

flyingtwinsmom

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
--Have you talked with them at all about why you stopped?--
I've told them that I didn't like the fighting, and that I saw that what I was doing was against why I had started homeschooling. I wanted them to learn to love learning and see that they can learn from everything, but that by doing "school" the way we were, they were just learning that learning sucks.

--Did they do workbooks when y'all were homeschooling? It may be that unschooling is such a stretch that they're a little lost and confused, wondering what they "should" be doing.--
We did lots of books before we stopped. I don't mind doing them, but when they think that is the only way learn, I become concerned. I know they wonder what they should be doing because they don't know anyone else that is free to "play" all day. They are just like me in finding it hard to stop comparing ourselves to everyone else.

--Go on playing school for now and see if they get tired of it.--
They haven't asked for any book stuff since Fri. We went to the RenFest on Saturday and kept busy at Grandma's working over the rest of the weekend. Today, we had a gymnastics class, and I figured when we got home they would want to get back on their "schedule", but instead they wanted to play. I'm taking each day as it comes.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:08 PM, flyingtwinsmom wrote:

> I've told them that I didn't like the fighting, and that I saw that
> what I was doing was against why I had started homeschooling. I
> wanted them to learn to love learning and see that they can learn
> from everything, but that by doing "school" the way we were, they
> were just learning that learning sucks.

Just as a way of getting this clearer in your head, it might help to
not focus on what you want them to do or be and focus on what you
value for yourself and why you're drawn to the environment you want to
create. From that environment you will help them get what they want.

In the above you say you want them to love learning. That's *still*
wanting them to be different than who they are right now. From your
kids' points of view it's the same as wanting them to love learning in
school. Or wanting them to love opera. Or wanting them to love organic
food.

If what you want (free exploration) gets in in the way of what they
want (doing school work) they won't see the value in what you want.
They will see what you're imposing on them as a barrier. But if the
free exploration environment you create supports their needs and wants
and helps them explore *whatever* they want (including workbooks)
they'll experience the value in it.

See the environment you provide as the nest that supports them. You're
creating an environment that supports *their* explorations. You
shouldn't be trying to mold them into unschoolers.

SInce the workbooks for them are a need artificially induced by school
-- though some unschooled kids do naturally like workbooks so the
desire isn't always artificial -- make those workbooks as accessible
as coloring books, eg, on a reachable shelf but not in the center of
the room and their lives. If they want feedback (grades), ask them
what they're looking for but don't offer unless they ask. They're used
to unsolicited feedback that shapes their own judgement of what
they've done. (Not so good.) But *solicited* feedback isn't inherently
bad and if you're sensitive to *their* goals for what they're asking
about instead of society's goals, they'll get more used to asking when
they need another point of view rather than basing their sense of
worth on someone else's opinion of how well they've done. (Though some
asking for opinion can be personality too and it's good to be
sensitive to that.)

And in the meantime, do fun things (as it sounds like you're doing).
That way they have a choice. If you force them to do fun things
instead of school work, then they don't have a choice to not do school.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

flyingtwinsmom

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:

--In the above you say you want them to love learning. That's *still*
> wanting them to be different than who they are right now. From your
> kids' points of view it's the same as wanting them to love learning in
> school. Or wanting them to love opera. Or wanting them to love organic
> food.--

How do you just accept? Do you not want anything in particular for your child? Having been raised in the traditional manner and having to deal with a dh who is very, very strict with them, I struggle with just accepting them as they are. I know that sounds horrible. I love them more than anything, but it is a battle for me to just let them be. DH and I were just fighting about this after an evening of him being very nasty to them about stupid things. They are just kids and I work on accepting that and learning to relax and enjoy who they are, but when he gets around (or others that judge us) his negativity and expectations start to weigh on me. I don't know how to move past that when each evening I have to start all over again. He constantly tells them what to do and expects so much of them and it's ruining my relationship with them because I don't want them to upset their dad.

--If what you want (free exploration) gets in in the way of what they
> want (doing school work) they won't see the value in what you want.
> They will see what you're imposing on them as a barrier. But if the
> free exploration environment you create supports their needs and wants
> and helps them explore *whatever* they want (including workbooks)
> they'll experience the value in it.--

I'm working on supporting them in whatever way they need. I've accepted that workbooks may be a part of that. It's more my attitude about workbooks that gets in the way, not how/why they use them.

--See the environment you provide as the nest that supports them. You're
> creating an environment that supports *their* explorations. You
> shouldn't be trying to mold them into unschoolers.--

So far, we haven't found our place yet. We are not school at homers, yet we aren't unschoolers either. Right now, I just feel lost, like we aren't doing anything. I'm struggling with creating a rich environment for them. (a subject for another post)

--And in the meantime, do fun things (as it sounds like you're doing).
> That way they have a choice. If you force them to do fun things
> instead of school work, then they don't have a choice to not do school.--
I've not forced them to do anything. I try to suggest things to do, and then I take their lead. But I still feel like it's just not working somehow for us.

[email protected]

It sounds like they are getting such mixed messages it may be getting in the way of them learning how to make decisions for themselves and "lead" anything.

With you and DH disagreeing, if not arguing in front of them, the tension has to be obvious to the kids.

Just looking at it from their point of view, if you are struggling to figure out how you want to live as a homechooler, what must that feel like from their side? So, grasp at workbooks and see if Mom and Dad are happy with that? Hang out and go to the park and see if the mood improves? Tough to know what the right move is when you are the kids in the middle.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
>
> --In the above you say you want them to love learning. That's *still*
> > wanting them to be different than who they are right now. From your
> > kids' points of view it's the same as wanting them to love learning in
> > school. Or wanting them to love opera. Or wanting them to love organic
> > food.--
>
> How do you just accept? Do you not want anything in particular for your child? Having been raised in the traditional manner and having to deal with a dh who is very, very strict with them, I struggle with just accepting them as they are. I know that sounds horrible. I love them more than anything, but it is a battle for me to just let them be. DH and I were just fighting about this after an evening of him being very nasty to them about stupid things. They are just kids and I work on accepting that and learning to relax and enjoy who they are, but when he gets around (or others that judge us) his negativity and expectations start to weigh on me. I don't know how to move past that when each evening I have to start all over again. He constantly tells them what to do and expects so much of them and it's ruining my relationship with them because I don't want them to upset their dad.
>
> --If what you want (free exploration) gets in in the way of what they
> > want (doing school work) they won't see the value in what you want.
> > They will see what you're imposing on them as a barrier. But if the
> > free exploration environment you create supports their needs and wants
> > and helps them explore *whatever* they want (including workbooks)
> > they'll experience the value in it.--
>
> I'm working on supporting them in whatever way they need. I've accepted that workbooks may be a part of that. It's more my attitude about workbooks that gets in the way, not how/why they use them.
>
> --See the environment you provide as the nest that supports them. You're
> > creating an environment that supports *their* explorations. You
> > shouldn't be trying to mold them into unschoolers.--
>
> So far, we haven't found our place yet. We are not school at homers, yet we aren't unschoolers either. Right now, I just feel lost, like we aren't doing anything. I'm struggling with creating a rich environment for them. (a subject for another post)
>
> --And in the meantime, do fun things (as it sounds like you're doing).
> > That way they have a choice. If you force them to do fun things
> > instead of school work, then they don't have a choice to not do school.--
> I've not forced them to do anything. I try to suggest things to do, and then I take their lead. But I still feel like it's just not working somehow for us.
>

plaidpanties666

Nance has some good points about mixed messages. Another way of thinking about that is that you're in the midst of a big transition. Transitions are hard - you're neither fish nor fowl and don't know where you're going to land, yet. To some extent, that's not an unschooling issue, but you can certainly look for ways to bring more of the principles of natural learning into your life. Remember, the adults in the situation are all learning too, and will have a good bit more deschooling to do than the kids!

"flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>> How do you just accept? Do you not want anything in particular for your child?
*****************

We all want things for our kids, the trouble is when we want things we aren't seeing in them - wanting them to be other than who they are, or wanting something expressed in a particuar way. You said you wanted them to love learning, and I've been there back when I was homeschooling Ray, wishing he would love to learn... but the trouble wasn't that he Didn't love to learn, it was that I was valuing some kinds of learning over others. He didn't love to read or do math problems, but he loved to run around and climb trees and swing on vines tarzan style. Your girls also love to learn - the trouble is you and they have gotten used to defining "learning" too narrowly.

>>Having been raised in the traditional manner and having to deal with a dh who is very, very strict with them, I struggle with just accepting them as they are. I know that sounds horrible. I love them more than anything, but it is a battle for me to just let them be.
****************

That's hard. Unschooling is so often a process of personal growth for parents. Having been raised the way you have, do you find you struggle to accept yourself for who you are? Do you find that you struggle to accept your dh for who he is? Those are things to think about. Even if you move away from unschooling, you can still work on... Okay, hang on. I nearly wrote "being more accepting" but that's not big enough. Step over acceptance to celebration - actively look for what you Do love about your kids, your dh and yourself. Celebrate what's wonderful about each of you.

That may seem like its besides the point, that it doesn't address the problems, but that kind of shift in thinking is at the core of unschooling.

>>He constantly tells them what to do and expects so much of them

First off, see his love and care as something to celebrate, even though he's not expressing it very lovingly or kindly. See him loving sooooo much he wants "what is best" for them and is willing to sacrifice his very humanity for their sake. That is, essentially, what parents, especially dads, are adjured to do, and he's doing it with all his heart. So honor that, rejoice in his willingness to go that far for his kids and then look for ways to offer him his humanity back.

Look for ways for him to have warm, comfortable time with the girls. Set them up for some easy-going, gentle things to do together, either one at a time or all together. At the same time, look for ways to be warmer and more giving to him, yourself. Let him feel cared for. Let him feel like you are his safety net, his soft place to fall.

Again, I know that seems besides the point, but that's a big part of the work of unschooling. Stepping away from textbooks is relatively easy - creating a home where relationships are open and supportive, though, is what allows natural learning to flourish.

---Meredith

flyingtwinsmom

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
--To some extent, that's not an unschooling issue, but you can certainly look for ways to bring more of the principles of natural learning into your life. Remember, the adults in the situation are all learning too, and will have a good bit more deschooling to do than the kids!--

Boy do I ever need more deschooling than them. Just when I think I'm moving in the right direction, I get sideswiped and thrown back. I should mention now that the workbook issue hasn't been an issue this week, not because I tried to keep them away from them, but just because they've not brought it up. I've asked a few times if they wanted to, and each time, they've found something else that was more important to them. I don't think we are passed this yet, but I am feeling better about the whole thing.

--You said you wanted them to love learning, and I've been there back when I was homeschooling Ray, wishing he would love to learn... but the trouble wasn't that he Didn't love to learn, it was that I was valuing some kinds of learning over others. He didn't love to read or do math problems, but he loved to run around and climb trees and swing on vines tarzan style. Your girls also love to learn - the trouble is you and they have gotten used to defining "learning" too narrowly. --

Is there one way that is better than another in moving beyond this kind of thinking? You are so right about me only seeing learning in a limited way. I still catch myself, when they are playing pretend or running in the woods, thinking that they aren't learning anything.

I get very nervous because they aren't reading well, they don't know how to spell, and they only have some very basics in math. I keep telling myself that they will get this. Yet, I wonder if they will. I have my doubts about how they will learn this if it isn't "taught." I haven't meet any unschoolers in person yet, but in reading others accounts, I hear about all the early readers and kids that are doing all kinds of great, creative, fun, exceptional things. These things often seem very educational, and we aren't there yet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm beginning to wonder if I am not cut out for unschooling. I keep trying to bring interesting stuff into our lives, but I often get told they aren't interested, so I back off.

--Having been raised the way you have, do you find you struggle to accept yourself for who you are? Do you find that you struggle to accept your dh for who he is? Those are things to think about. --

Most definitely. I struggle more with accepting myself than with others. I keep telling myself that I am accepting of my dh, but if that were the case, I wouldn't be trying to help him be easier and more accepting of the kids. So I guess I am not as accepting of him as I need to be. That's an hard line to walk.

--Step over acceptance to celebration - actively look for what you Do love about your kids, your dh and yourself. Celebrate what's wonderful about each of you. --

I don't have experience at looking for the good. I've gotten better, but I still struggle with it. The thought just occurred to me that maybe I need to start a journal and be sure I list at least one wonderful thing about each every day. Anyone ever done this to help you find the good? I know it's about a change in my outlook as well, and I want it to happen quickly. What I'm finding is that I have some good days when I can easily see that the loud house means healthy kids having fun. There are other days when that loud house drives me crazy.

--Look for ways for him to have warm, comfortable time with the girls.--

What if he doesn't want it? They don't share many interests, and they seem to annoy him almost all the time. It's very hard to find things they can do together that won't end badly. I sound like he is some horrible father, and that is truly not the case. He works very hard so that I can be here for the girls. I often make sure to praise him for that alone and when around others. He values his time at home. Even if not actively doing something with the girls, they know he is here. That means a lot to everyone. He's also gotten to the point that he can see when he's over the edge. He doesn't apologize, but he will often say later that it was a bad night or some such. I know how lucky I am to be married to a wonderful man that puts his family first and is willing to stretch himself enough to let us try unschooling. That's just hard to remember on those bad days. ;)

--Stepping away from textbooks is relatively easy - creating a home where relationships are open and supportive, though, is what allows natural learning to flourish. --

That is such a wonderful thought. I can't see how unschooling can truly be all that it is meant to be without the great relationships.
Thanks

[email protected]

Let's you try unschooling. Hmm. . .

Do you know how that sounds?

No wonder everyone is unhappy. It's all a big trial. A test and Dad gets to decide if we all pass.

It's not an assault on your DH to suggest that you and he have not thought this out and talked it out. If he takes it that way, has to be patted on the back for doing the right thing -- supporting his family -- and you and the kids are on edge about his moods, something else, some other tensions, may be going on. Goodness knows the whole country is on edge. It wouldn't be unusual.

But until the two of you are sorted out a bit more -- no, it's never completely sorted but that's life and raising kids -- the whole set up sounds uncomfortable and stressful.

Can you consider it summer vacation, or whatever makes it OK in your mind to just let the kids be, until you and DH can get a better handle on what you want to do? Sometimes deschooling takes a long time and a lot of talking. The kids don't have to be part of all that squabbling though, all that stress.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@> wrote:
> >
> --To some extent, that's not an unschooling issue, but you can certainly look for ways to bring more of the principles of natural learning into your life. Remember, the adults in the situation are all learning too, and will have a good bit more deschooling to do than the kids!--
>
> Boy do I ever need more deschooling than them. Just when I think I'm moving in the right direction, I get sideswiped and thrown back. I should mention now that the workbook issue hasn't been an issue this week, not because I tried to keep them away from them, but just because they've not brought it up. I've asked a few times if they wanted to, and each time, they've found something else that was more important to them. I don't think we are passed this yet, but I am feeling better about the whole thing.
>
> --You said you wanted them to love learning, and I've been there back when I was homeschooling Ray, wishing he would love to learn... but the trouble wasn't that he Didn't love to learn, it was that I was valuing some kinds of learning over others. He didn't love to read or do math problems, but he loved to run around and climb trees and swing on vines tarzan style. Your girls also love to learn - the trouble is you and they have gotten used to defining "learning" too narrowly. --
>
> Is there one way that is better than another in moving beyond this kind of thinking? You are so right about me only seeing learning in a limited way. I still catch myself, when they are playing pretend or running in the woods, thinking that they aren't learning anything.
>
> I get very nervous because they aren't reading well, they don't know how to spell, and they only have some very basics in math. I keep telling myself that they will get this. Yet, I wonder if they will. I have my doubts about how they will learn this if it isn't "taught." I haven't meet any unschoolers in person yet, but in reading others accounts, I hear about all the early readers and kids that are doing all kinds of great, creative, fun, exceptional things. These things often seem very educational, and we aren't there yet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I'm beginning to wonder if I am not cut out for unschooling. I keep trying to bring interesting stuff into our lives, but I often get told they aren't interested, so I back off.
>
> --Having been raised the way you have, do you find you struggle to accept yourself for who you are? Do you find that you struggle to accept your dh for who he is? Those are things to think about. --
>
> Most definitely. I struggle more with accepting myself than with others. I keep telling myself that I am accepting of my dh, but if that were the case, I wouldn't be trying to help him be easier and more accepting of the kids. So I guess I am not as accepting of him as I need to be. That's an hard line to walk.
>
> --Step over acceptance to celebration - actively look for what you Do love about your kids, your dh and yourself. Celebrate what's wonderful about each of you. --
>
> I don't have experience at looking for the good. I've gotten better, but I still struggle with it. The thought just occurred to me that maybe I need to start a journal and be sure I list at least one wonderful thing about each every day. Anyone ever done this to help you find the good? I know it's about a change in my outlook as well, and I want it to happen quickly. What I'm finding is that I have some good days when I can easily see that the loud house means healthy kids having fun. There are other days when that loud house drives me crazy.
>
> --Look for ways for him to have warm, comfortable time with the girls.--
>
> What if he doesn't want it? They don't share many interests, and they seem to annoy him almost all the time. It's very hard to find things they can do together that won't end badly. I sound like he is some horrible father, and that is truly not the case. He works very hard so that I can be here for the girls. I often make sure to praise him for that alone and when around others. He values his time at home. Even if not actively doing something with the girls, they know he is here. That means a lot to everyone. He's also gotten to the point that he can see when he's over the edge. He doesn't apologize, but he will often say later that it was a bad night or some such. I know how lucky I am to be married to a wonderful man that puts his family first and is willing to stretch himself enough to let us try unschooling. That's just hard to remember on those bad days. ;)
>
> --Stepping away from textbooks is relatively easy - creating a home where relationships are open and supportive, though, is what allows natural learning to flourish. --
>
> That is such a wonderful thought. I can't see how unschooling can truly be all that it is meant to be without the great relationships.
> Thanks
>

plaidpanties666

"flyingtwinsmom" <flyingtwinsmom@...> wrote:
>> Is there one way that is better than another in moving beyond this kind of thinking? You are so right about me only seeing learning in a limited way. I still catch myself, when they are playing pretend or running in the woods, thinking that they aren't learning anything.
*****************

By "better" do you mean "faster"? You only learn as fast as you learn, when you're ready, at your own pace... just like your kids ;)

Catching yourself is a sign that you Are learning and changing. Its not instantaneous - its perfectly natural to keep slipping into old habits, and catching yourself and saying "woops, of course they're learning, la la la I can't hear you, bad old tapes!" is often part of the process.

>>> I get very nervous because they aren't reading well, they don't know how to spell, and they only have some very basics in math. I keep telling myself that they will get this. Yet, I wonder if they will. I have my doubts about how they will learn this if it isn't "taught."
********************

I used to work for an adult literacy program, and also tutored folks in math for the GED, so I've seen pretty directly how "teaching" can fall short. The biggest - and I mean THE BIGGEST - issue in terms of helping adults learn to read or do basic math was helping them get over self esteem issues. I spent more time giving pep-talks than actually teaching anything.

On the flip side, unschoolers consistently report that the amount of time it takes kids to "catch up" to schooled peers is trivial. Weeks to months to catch up to 12 years of education. No kidding. It might help you to hunt around the websites, blogs and lists for those kinds of stories, or just read along until you see them coming up. They do come up - our kids keep getting older and getting into college, or getting GEDs or getting jobs, so the stories keep coming. Kids who believe in themselves can learn anything they choose to learn.

This will likely give you a good place to start with that:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/

---Meredith

Laura Flynn Endres

>>>>>
Meredith wrote:
I used to work for an adult literacy program, and also tutored folks in math for the GED, so I've seen pretty directly how "teaching" can fall short. The biggest - and I mean THE BIGGEST - issue in terms of helping adults learn to read or do basic math was helping them get over self esteem issues. I spent more time giving pep-talks than actually teaching anything.
>>>>>


I have a similar experience. After I quit teaching to unschool with my kids, I continued tutoring school kids to make a bit of money. My time would've been better spent just talking with the parents about honoring their children, being on their side, seeing the positives and strengths and unique intricacies of their child rather than focusing on what needs "fixing." The parents, without realizing it, were more concerned with what the teacher thought (& what grades their kids got, & whether or not they were "keeping up" with the other kids, etc) than how their child was feeling.... Their child who came to me with slumped shoulders and timid; or with head thrown back in defiance; or any other manifestation of not being honored. I talked a lot with the kids about how we each have things that come easily to us, and we each usually have things that don't - and that school doesn't usually honor that. I like to think that at least for that one hour we spent together, I wasn't a person trying to fix them, but helping them feel ok regardless of what others were saying and doing to them.

I also hear a lot of adults saying how they struggle with math (the biggest one) so they don't want their child to do the same. But if they went through 12 years of math schooling and are more fearful of it than ever, why would they think that same method is the best way to teach their children? It's clearly not.


>>>>>>
Meredith wrote:
On the flip side, unschoolers consistently report that the amount of time it takes kids to "catch up" to schooled peers is trivial. Weeks to months to catch up to 12 years of education. No kidding. It might help you to hunt around the websites, blogs and lists for those kinds of stories, or just read along until you see them coming up. They do come up - our kids keep getting older and getting into college, or getting GEDs or getting jobs, so the stories keep coming. Kids who believe in themselves can learn anything they choose to learn.

This will likely give you a good place to start with that:
http://sandradodd.com/teen/
>>>>>


We had that experience! It's so cool! I blogged some of it - http://piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com/search/label/An%20Unschooler%20Goes%20to%20School. Unfortunately, when I link to only those related posts, they show up out of order. But you'll get the gist.

And hi, I'm Laura, known to some online as piscesgrrl. I've been lurking for a while. :)

Laura


*~*~*~*~*
"Keep company with those who make you better." ~ English saying
*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JJ

A local education consultant here used to say, "if they're breathing, they're learning." And she didn't mean grammar and math. That's not necessarily reassuring, because "schooled" or not, the constant learning every day in every way, is learning is about who they are, how to live, what family means, and so forth. There's no standard curriculum imaginable for the really important lessons.

Meredith mentioned adults with self-esteem issues, for example. That's part of learning who we are and how to live in childhood. Another example: everybody's kids are learning at this moment, what kind of parents to be to our grandchildren. And what kind of citizens to be, etc. Sometimes I wonder if all our collective and individual concern about teaching discrete measurable school skills and subjects is a way of pushing down our fears and ignorance about these much more important kinds of learning.

But I was schooled myself and had a school career, like John Holt. So I'm not the best teacher for such learning, at least not anymore. Meredith is right that increasingly, you can learn more from the unschooled kids themselves. Just look at what they've learned, about all the important stuff School can't control!

A few of the teen stories Meredith linked are from me and our always-unschooled daughter as a young teen.

Then at age 16, she started her own blog, writing about her first independent experiences with everything from college classes, jobs, driving, voting, religion and sex, to family, food, travel, cultural role models and social commentary (movies and tv, Barbie dolls and purity balls, spanking.)

She pretty much said it all in the next three years, before turning 20. Many of her teen essays reflect "how" she learned or didn't learn something. You can also see her learning and development as it happens from age 16 to 19, by reading chronologically from October 2006 forward. I never got around to adding her unschooler's blog at Sandra's:
http://misedjj.wordpress.com/

Or jump around any way you like, by typing "math" for example -- a traumatic subject for both of us! -- in her blog's search box, and then reading all those posts that come up, again starting from the earliest date.

JJ


> >> I still catch myself, when they are playing pretend or running in the woods, thinking that they aren't learning anything.
> *****************
>
> catching yourself and saying "woops, of course they're learning, la la la I can't hear you, bad old tapes!" is often part of the process.
. . . It might help you to hunt around the websites, blogs and lists for those kinds of stories, or just read along until you see them coming up. . . Kids who believe in themselves can learn anything they choose to learn.
>
> This will likely give you a good place to start with that:
> http://sandradodd.com/teen/
>

lylaw

"I also hear a lot of adults saying how they struggle with math (the biggest one) so they don't want their child to do the same. But if they went through 12 years of math schooling and are more fearful of it than ever, why would they think that same method is the best way to teach their children? It's clearly not."

can I quote you on that? that is exactly what I have been thinking for quite some time...

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debra Rossing

Math is one of those things I love - in some part just because that's
me, and in some part because I had really good teachers in school who
not only showed us what was in the book but also the tips, tricks, and
fun stuff about numbers. DS (12) was playing with his new calculator (I
always ask around 'back to school sale' time if there are any supplies
he needs, paper, pens, post it notes, whatever - he asked for a
calculator) and wanted me to show him again a 'trick' I had done a few
weeks ago. So I did, slowly. It involves all the 'magic' you can do with
9. We ended up spending a good half hour or more discussing and playing
with the 9 times table. He'll acknowledge that math is not his best
thing but he's also not afraid of it - he knows that if there's
something he needs/wants to know about numbers, he can find out and
learn it.

Deb R


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Laura Flynn Endres

unschoolingbasics>>>>"I also hear a lot of adults saying how they struggle with math (the biggest one) so they don't want their child to do the same. But if they went through 12 years of math schooling and are more fearful of it than ever, why would they think that same method is the best way to teach their children? It's clearly not."

can I quote you on that? that is exactly what I have been thinking for quite some time...

lyla
>>>>>




Of course! :)

Laura

*~*~*~*~*
"Keep company with those who make you better." ~ English saying
*~*~*~*~*
www.piscesgrrrl.blogspot.com
*~*~*~*~*

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joy

I taught myself math because I liked the "brain-exercise" - it is a bit like regular exercise as well, at first it is a bit painful but then it starts to feel good!

I went from 60% in math in grade 10 to 95% in grade 11 and no teacher taught me, in fact I had always absolutely hated school and thought it was a waste of time.

Why on earth do most people put their children through school because they think it is good for them??!!