question???
crystal rid
I am going to ask a question that I understand from my research can be a bit controversial but I am really wondering about this. Let me start by saying i am a nonspanking attachment parent that cosleeps, babywears, cloth diapers,etc. In researching unschooling I have found it runs hand in hand with attachment parenting and gentle parenting/natural child beliefs. My question is in reading about natural child beliefs I have come accross the philosophy that all forms of punishment are bad and that telling a child no is bad. I can understand the reasoning behind this. I can definatly see why it would be better to say yes as often as possible. But I have been a parent for 11 years, a Foster parent of and on for 17 yard, worked in daycare centers, public s hooks and even owned my own day care. All that working with children has taught me several things 1) children can and do learn without any adult involvement 2) children go through cases some they grow
out of some they dont and 3) something may be age appropriate but they still need an adult to teach them why a behavior is unacceptable and how to refrain from doing it. So I guess what I m getting at is from my experience a child that hits a age 2 (perfectly normal) if not taught its wrong will hit at 5(still normal but less acceptable ) and at 10(no longer acceptable) and a 30(jail time). Can any of you explain how this wonderful sounding philosophy works in real life. Because from my experience with children I seems to me that raising my children like that would simply cause everyone else in our house to be miserable. Or am I missing something here?
out of some they dont and 3) something may be age appropriate but they still need an adult to teach them why a behavior is unacceptable and how to refrain from doing it. So I guess what I m getting at is from my experience a child that hits a age 2 (perfectly normal) if not taught its wrong will hit at 5(still normal but less acceptable ) and at 10(no longer acceptable) and a 30(jail time). Can any of you explain how this wonderful sounding philosophy works in real life. Because from my experience with children I seems to me that raising my children like that would simply cause everyone else in our house to be miserable. Or am I missing something here?
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Where did you read that saying "no" to a child is "bad" and that unschooling parents dop nothing about a child hitting?
Just curious. Its really amazing how people will get " don't ever say no to a child" when they read things like " say more yes- or find the yes".
Do you think that children and adults who do not behave properly were the ones who did not get punished?
Do you think punishibng "teaches" people to behave?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just curious. Its really amazing how people will get " don't ever say no to a child" when they read things like " say more yes- or find the yes".
Do you think that children and adults who do not behave properly were the ones who did not get punished?
Do you think punishibng "teaches" people to behave?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], crystal rid <cryway2@...> wrote:
Make "No" meaningful by using it sparingly. The same could be said about another massively overused parentism: "be careful!"
Sometimes kids need information like "I don't like to be hit!" or "He doesn't like that!" Kids want to connect with other people, but don't always have the skills to do it very well. They don't so much need to know what's "unacceptable" as to have the chance to build up a set of good tools. They Want good tools! It makes them more effective at getting what they want.
If the only tools a person has for getting attention and expressing strong feelings are things like hitting, then it doesn't matter a darn what you "teach" in terms of what's appropriate. Its not the hitting that's the problem!
Kids want to connect. If the only way that works to get attention is to hit, they'll hit. If they're punished, they'll feel crappy And Still Hit! That was my stepson, Ray, when I met him at 4. He Knew hitting was Bad, but he did it anyway, believing He was Bad because he didn't know what else to do. "Don't hit" didn't give him what he needed - attention and better tools. With enough attention and a chance to develop better tools, he stopped hitting. Tada! No jail time for this guy.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
> telling a child no is bad."No" can be a really useful form of information! The trouble is that its massively over-used by the majority of parents. I have friends who are AP, co-sleep, non-spanking parents, but will say "No" the moment their kids say "mom" or "dad" in a questioning tone - they don't even wait for the question!
Make "No" meaningful by using it sparingly. The same could be said about another massively overused parentism: "be careful!"
>>all forms of punishment are badThe trouble with punishment is that it doesn't do what its intended to do. What punishment does is make "getting caught" an issue. I don't want my kids to be worried about "getting caught" so I don't punish or shame or lecture them. Since I don't do those things, they'll tell me things they way they would a friend (a bigger, stronger friend who can help them out when they didn't something that didn't turn out so very well).
>>something may be age appropriate but they still need an adult to teach them why a behavior is unacceptable**************
Sometimes kids need information like "I don't like to be hit!" or "He doesn't like that!" Kids want to connect with other people, but don't always have the skills to do it very well. They don't so much need to know what's "unacceptable" as to have the chance to build up a set of good tools. They Want good tools! It makes them more effective at getting what they want.
>>and how to refrain from doing it.Helping kids have better tools is one of the ways they move away from using worse tools - like hitting for instance. It can also help some kids to look for alternatives. It can also help for adults to be very present and engaged with kids who struggle to find and use better tools under stress.
>>a child that hits a age 2 (perfectly normal) if not taught its wrong will hit at 5(still normal but less acceptable ) and at 10(no longer acceptable) and a 30(jail time)**************
If the only tools a person has for getting attention and expressing strong feelings are things like hitting, then it doesn't matter a darn what you "teach" in terms of what's appropriate. Its not the hitting that's the problem!
Kids want to connect. If the only way that works to get attention is to hit, they'll hit. If they're punished, they'll feel crappy And Still Hit! That was my stepson, Ray, when I met him at 4. He Knew hitting was Bad, but he did it anyway, believing He was Bad because he didn't know what else to do. "Don't hit" didn't give him what he needed - attention and better tools. With enough attention and a chance to develop better tools, he stopped hitting. Tada! No jail time for this guy.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 11, 2010, at 12:23 PM, crystal rid wrote:
You said you've heard "telling a child no is bad". But what does "bad"
mean? We think we know what it means, but it's used in so many
different ways that it's too vague to actually mean anything. Does bad
mean immoral? Inconvenient? Hurtful? Thoughtless? Disobedient?
Unlawful? Irritating? Tasteless?
Instead of a list of good and bad things, it's more useful for
unschooling to see what practices turn someone toward better
relationships and free learning, what turns them away and why.
The goals of unschooling are helping kids explore their interests and
have access to new ones and growing great relationships so our
children see us as their partner who will help them find -- safe and
respectful! -- ways to get what they want.
No to what a child wants to do means, "No, I won't help you," which
isn't a great way to build trust in someone that you can be relied on
to help! That no gets replaced with "Yes," or "Let's talk about it and
figure out how that can be made to happen."
But I think you're also asking about saying "No, stop that, bad idea."
In those cases it depends on the age of the child and what they're
doing. But *always*, regardless of age, regardless of behavior, it's
helpful for the relationship to see that the child is trying to meet a
need. It's also helpful for the relationship to see kids as wanting to
be good but they just don't know how. They don't choose hurtful
selfish solutions because they're "bad" but because the polite route
is often more complex and heads away from what they want and isn't a
sure thing. So they choose the direct route. They're choosing what
they're able to figure out. Their actions aren't saying they're bad.
Their actions are saying they need help figuring out an indirect
solution that will work.
I once likened it a kids sitting across a chasm from what they want.
Mom tells them they're not allowed to jump. She often tells them to
take or helps them take the long, indirect route but it involves a
complex path that twists away from what they want. And the thing is
right there across the chasm. So they jump.
They don't jump because they're bad. Even if you think they should
know by now not to jump, they're still jumping because -- as their
actions say loud and clear -- they still need help navigating the more
complex path.
It's not that unschoolers never say no. It's that no isn't helpful. It
focuses on the mom's agenda, like how hitting is bad, and not on the
child's agenda. As you know, when someone is focused on something else
it's the worst possible time to expect them to hear about something
else! Yes, they should hear -- at least once ;-) -- I can't let you
hit your sister. But after a couple of times they know! It's not the
words that are confounding them. It's how to meet their need in a
better way that's confounding them. So you help them with a better
way. And the more they're helped with the better way, the more natural
it will feel.
To read more about it, there's the Always Say Yes (or some form of
yes) page:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/alwayssayyes.html
and if you scroll down the right side, there a whole section on
"Influencing Kid Behavior".
And on Sandra's site probably the Parenting Peacefully page is the
most hepful:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
And do listen to her Parenting Peacefully talk. The easiest link is on
her main unschooling page. Scroll down to the bottom and there are
several recordings linked there:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling.html
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Or am I missing something here?Yes, you're missing what no gets replaced with! ;-)
You said you've heard "telling a child no is bad". But what does "bad"
mean? We think we know what it means, but it's used in so many
different ways that it's too vague to actually mean anything. Does bad
mean immoral? Inconvenient? Hurtful? Thoughtless? Disobedient?
Unlawful? Irritating? Tasteless?
Instead of a list of good and bad things, it's more useful for
unschooling to see what practices turn someone toward better
relationships and free learning, what turns them away and why.
The goals of unschooling are helping kids explore their interests and
have access to new ones and growing great relationships so our
children see us as their partner who will help them find -- safe and
respectful! -- ways to get what they want.
No to what a child wants to do means, "No, I won't help you," which
isn't a great way to build trust in someone that you can be relied on
to help! That no gets replaced with "Yes," or "Let's talk about it and
figure out how that can be made to happen."
But I think you're also asking about saying "No, stop that, bad idea."
In those cases it depends on the age of the child and what they're
doing. But *always*, regardless of age, regardless of behavior, it's
helpful for the relationship to see that the child is trying to meet a
need. It's also helpful for the relationship to see kids as wanting to
be good but they just don't know how. They don't choose hurtful
selfish solutions because they're "bad" but because the polite route
is often more complex and heads away from what they want and isn't a
sure thing. So they choose the direct route. They're choosing what
they're able to figure out. Their actions aren't saying they're bad.
Their actions are saying they need help figuring out an indirect
solution that will work.
I once likened it a kids sitting across a chasm from what they want.
Mom tells them they're not allowed to jump. She often tells them to
take or helps them take the long, indirect route but it involves a
complex path that twists away from what they want. And the thing is
right there across the chasm. So they jump.
They don't jump because they're bad. Even if you think they should
know by now not to jump, they're still jumping because -- as their
actions say loud and clear -- they still need help navigating the more
complex path.
It's not that unschoolers never say no. It's that no isn't helpful. It
focuses on the mom's agenda, like how hitting is bad, and not on the
child's agenda. As you know, when someone is focused on something else
it's the worst possible time to expect them to hear about something
else! Yes, they should hear -- at least once ;-) -- I can't let you
hit your sister. But after a couple of times they know! It's not the
words that are confounding them. It's how to meet their need in a
better way that's confounding them. So you help them with a better
way. And the more they're helped with the better way, the more natural
it will feel.
To read more about it, there's the Always Say Yes (or some form of
yes) page:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/changing%20parenting/alwayssayyes.html
and if you scroll down the right side, there a whole section on
"Influencing Kid Behavior".
And on Sandra's site probably the Parenting Peacefully page is the
most hepful:
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
And do listen to her Parenting Peacefully talk. The easiest link is on
her main unschooling page. Scroll down to the bottom and there are
several recordings linked there:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling.html
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
crystal rid
I dont know where I read it. On some site I linked to through some other site. I am sure that in this just as in any other form of parenting there are people on both sides as well as in the middle. I also realize that a child can grow up to be good or bad no matter how their parents parented them. I also know what works for one child will not necessarily work for another. What I was questioning was the never say no, let them learn to work out another way without any parental influence thing.
On Tue May 11th, 2010 12:12 PM CDT BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
>Where did you read that saying "no" to a child is "bad" and that unschooling parents dop nothing about a child hitting?
>Just curious. Its really amazing how people will get " don't ever say no to a child" when they read things like " say more yes- or find the yes".
>Do you think that children and adults who do not behave properly were the ones who did not get punished?
>Do you think punishibng "teaches" people to behave?
>
>Alex Polikowsky
>http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<What I was questioning was the never say no, let them learn to work out another way without any parental influence thing.>>
I have been reading about unschooling for almost 8 years and I have participated in unschooling discussions for almost 6.
I have read almost all the unschooling books out and I have been to unschooling gathering and even on national unschooling Conference
and I have NEVER read that from anyone who truly undestands unschooling that is why I was asking where you read there.
Unschooling is NOT about letting kids work out things on their own all alone. Its pretty much opposite to that so I am really surprise to see someone say they read that somewhere.
You have been given some great links for Sandra's and Joyce's sites.
Lots of great things to read there.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been reading about unschooling for almost 8 years and I have participated in unschooling discussions for almost 6.
I have read almost all the unschooling books out and I have been to unschooling gathering and even on national unschooling Conference
and I have NEVER read that from anyone who truly undestands unschooling that is why I was asking where you read there.
Unschooling is NOT about letting kids work out things on their own all alone. Its pretty much opposite to that so I am really surprise to see someone say they read that somewhere.
You have been given some great links for Sandra's and Joyce's sites.
Lots of great things to read there.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
There is that quote of Joyce's "Always say yes or some form of yes" that can get misread. I'm not saying its the only thing that ever gets misread ;) and I don't even think its a bad quote - it was a really great starting point for *me* personally, back when I was trying to figure out how to apply the theory of unschooling with a young child. I was saying a lot of things like "not now" and realized what a bad strategy that was. Shifting to trying to start with a "yes" as much as possible made a big difference.
I used to work retail, and so "Always say yes..." was also kind of an Aha! moment for me, since it was pretty much the adage where I worked - old style customer service, where the customer is always right, too. So I found I *had* the basic concepts and even some of those skills already - it makes a big difference to hear "Yes! just let me get my hands free" instead of "No, I'm busy."
It helped me to think of my job as a parent as being a lot like customer service. It was my job to Help, not be obstructive or to teach lessons, but to help another person get his or her needs met.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
I used to work retail, and so "Always say yes..." was also kind of an Aha! moment for me, since it was pretty much the adage where I worked - old style customer service, where the customer is always right, too. So I found I *had* the basic concepts and even some of those skills already - it makes a big difference to hear "Yes! just let me get my hands free" instead of "No, I'm busy."
It helped me to think of my job as a parent as being a lot like customer service. It was my job to Help, not be obstructive or to teach lessons, but to help another person get his or her needs met.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Amanda Mendenhall
"It helped me to think of my job as a parent as being a lot like customer
service. It was my job to Help, not be obstructive or to teach lessons, but
to help another person get his or her needs met."
Thank you for that. I am new to unschooling and that helps shed some light
on some of concepts I am trying to grasp. By the way, my name is Amanda and
I am blessed with 3 children.
Amanda M
Thomas-8
Jon-7
Emily-1
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
service. It was my job to Help, not be obstructive or to teach lessons, but
to help another person get his or her needs met."
Thank you for that. I am new to unschooling and that helps shed some light
on some of concepts I am trying to grasp. By the way, my name is Amanda and
I am blessed with 3 children.
Amanda M
Thomas-8
Jon-7
Emily-1
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]