thank you & goodbye
lilyfoil
Hi Joyce, I've appreciated your patient responses and especially your suggestion of the more social networking sort of unschooling support. I would like to let you know that the mom of 3 under 5 who is considering unschooling sent me a note of appreciation on my post -- sometimes I fear that all parenting experts -- including unschooling ones -- expect mothers to be saints, while society really supports no mom. My "fear" of mainstream culture and my insistence on bedtimes and fairly decent eating (I'm really pretty loose on all of these, I swear!) do come out of respect for my kids -- I think adults need to provide some guidance, I think that is an act of respect for the child as a growing human. Humans need love, respect, and culture to find their ways. I really think I am less strict in my thinking than someone who listens to any expert, including unschooling ones, and tries to follow them perfectly. But, again, I feel the lists (I already quit Sandra's) leave less room for dissent and diversity of experience than schools do, which is unfortunate if you're really trying to change society. If you really want to change things, don't be quite so sure of your own thinking, I say.
All the best, and good bye,
Liz in Ca (called out by teacher "JJ" I leave with some new knowledge as well as my dose of shame)
All the best, and good bye,
Liz in Ca (called out by teacher "JJ" I leave with some new knowledge as well as my dose of shame)
Stephanie Tavera
I hate to see you leave Liz! I'm also just an unschooling mom. I'm not sure
I'll ever be considered radical. I'm pretty sure we're not the only
non-radicals here. Stephanie
I'll ever be considered radical. I'm pretty sure we're not the only
non-radicals here. Stephanie
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:24 PM, lilyfoil <seafaces@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Joyce, I've appreciated your patient responses and especially your
> suggestion of the more social networking sort of unschooling support. I
> would like to let you know that the mom of 3 under 5 who is considering
> unschooling sent me a note of appreciation on my post -- sometimes I fear
> that all parenting experts -- including unschooling ones -- expect mothers
> to be saints, while society really supports no mom. My "fear" of mainstream
> culture and my insistence on bedtimes and fairly decent eating (I'm really
> pretty loose on all of these, I swear!) do come out of respect for my kids
> -- I think adults need to provide some guidance, I think that is an act of
> respect for the child as a growing human. Humans need love, respect, and
> culture to find their ways. I really think I am less strict in my thinking
> than someone who listens to any expert, including unschooling ones, and
> tries to follow them perfectly. But, again, I feel the lists (I already quit
> Sandra's) leave less room for dissent and diversity of experience than
> schools do, which is unfortunate if you're really trying to change society.
> If you really want to change things, don't be quite so sure of your own
> thinking, I say.
>
> All the best, and good bye,
> Liz in Ca (called out by teacher "JJ" I leave with some new knowledge as
> well as my dose of shame)
>
>
>
--
Stephanie mama to 4
Earn Amazon Gift Cards for Free! http://swagbucks.com/refer/lilmamibella
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "lilyfoil" <seafaces@...> wrote:
Changing society is something many unschoolers would like to do in a variety of different ways, but its not actually part of unschooling itself. One of the common confusions that come out on lists is that all the other wonderful, exciting things that each family is doing can get tied up in the idea of "unschooling" - and in a way, that makes sense, if you're trying to move away from dividing the world up into subjects! At the same time, unschooling is really the Only thing we all have in common, here, and that's a big part of why the focus of this list is kept narrow. Its Not an alternative lifestyle list because that's disenfranchising to unschoolers who aren't interested in being "alternative" beyond unschooling itself.
I couldn't agree more! Its especially important to question each and every idea about what it means to respect children, because most of those ideas revolve around the assumption that children need guides. Unschooling questions that in a biiiiig way. What if they don't need, guides? What if they need partners, friends and allies? What does that mean? What does it look like?
Part of what it "means" is looking for more ways for us, parents, to change to meet the specific needs of our specific kids. That's hard. I like me ;) I tend to resist changing my habits and expectations. And yet, some of my habits and expectations get in the way of my relationship with my kids. I Want to keep improving my relationship with my kids! I Want to be my best self, kinder, more thoughtful, more generous to everyone, including myself. And for that I'll challenge myself, over and over, to change, to question, to be skeptical of what I think I know.
I'm not saying unschooling is about giving up what you're passionate about for the sake of your kids - I don't mean to give that impression when I say "change yourself". It is about expanding your own world, though, of going as much beyond your comfort zone as you can manage, in support of someone you love with all your heart.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>I feel the lists... leave less room for dissent and diversity of experience than schools do, which is unfortunate if you're really trying to change society.*****************
Changing society is something many unschoolers would like to do in a variety of different ways, but its not actually part of unschooling itself. One of the common confusions that come out on lists is that all the other wonderful, exciting things that each family is doing can get tied up in the idea of "unschooling" - and in a way, that makes sense, if you're trying to move away from dividing the world up into subjects! At the same time, unschooling is really the Only thing we all have in common, here, and that's a big part of why the focus of this list is kept narrow. Its Not an alternative lifestyle list because that's disenfranchising to unschoolers who aren't interested in being "alternative" beyond unschooling itself.
>>If you really want to change things,To keep the focus on unschooling, this list isn't about changing "things" so much as changing Ourselves. Part of that has to do with the diversity of unschoolers - we don't all want to change the same things about the world! but a bigger part is that a basic premise of unschooling is children don't need to be changed, that change is inherent in childhood. Unschooling isn't about "raising" children! Its about valuing who they are and what they love right now, even when who they are and what they love seems to conflict with who *we* are and what we love.
>>don't be quite so sure of your own thinking, I say.****************
I couldn't agree more! Its especially important to question each and every idea about what it means to respect children, because most of those ideas revolve around the assumption that children need guides. Unschooling questions that in a biiiiig way. What if they don't need, guides? What if they need partners, friends and allies? What does that mean? What does it look like?
Part of what it "means" is looking for more ways for us, parents, to change to meet the specific needs of our specific kids. That's hard. I like me ;) I tend to resist changing my habits and expectations. And yet, some of my habits and expectations get in the way of my relationship with my kids. I Want to keep improving my relationship with my kids! I Want to be my best self, kinder, more thoughtful, more generous to everyone, including myself. And for that I'll challenge myself, over and over, to change, to question, to be skeptical of what I think I know.
I'm not saying unschooling is about giving up what you're passionate about for the sake of your kids - I don't mean to give that impression when I say "change yourself". It is about expanding your own world, though, of going as much beyond your comfort zone as you can manage, in support of someone you love with all your heart.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
Jennifer Cushman
I appreciated your voice Liz. I love hearing about different viewpoints and
experiences!
Jennifer
experiences!
Jennifer
On 7/5/10 8:01 AM, "Stephanie Tavera" <lilmamibella@...> wrote:
> I hate to see you leave Liz! I'm also just an unschooling mom. I'm not sure
> I'll ever be considered radical. I'm pretty sure we're not the only
> non-radicals here. Stephanie
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:24 PM, lilyfoil <seafaces@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Joyce, I've appreciated your patient responses and especially your
>> suggestion of the more social networking sort of unschooling support. I
>> would like to let you know that the mom of 3 under 5 who is considering
>> unschooling sent me a note of appreciation on my post -- sometimes I fear
>> that all parenting experts -- including unschooling ones -- expect mothers
>> to be saints, while society really supports no mom. My "fear" of mainstream
>> culture and my insistence on bedtimes and fairly decent eating (I'm really
>> pretty loose on all of these, I swear!) do come out of respect for my kids
>> -- I think adults need to provide some guidance, I think that is an act of
>> respect for the child as a growing human. Humans need love, respect, and
>> culture to find their ways. I really think I am less strict in my thinking
>> than someone who listens to any expert, including unschooling ones, and
>> tries to follow them perfectly. But, again, I feel the lists (I already quit
>> Sandra's) leave less room for dissent and diversity of experience than
>> schools do, which is unfortunate if you're really trying to change society.
>> If you really want to change things, don't be quite so sure of your own
>> thinking, I say.
>>
>> All the best, and good bye,
>> Liz in Ca (called out by teacher "JJ" I leave with some new knowledge as
>> well as my dose of shame)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 6, 2010, at 7:24 PM, lilyfoil wrote:
a club where people are accepted or rejected.
Maybe this will help: the list exists to provide immersion in a life
view that few people can find anywhere else. Where else can people go
to experience and try out what it's like to fully live the principles
of radical unschooling without compromise?
I know people want to connect with like minded folks and share with
each other. That's why I gave the link to the Radical Unschoolers
Network. (BTW, Laura has decided to stay with Ning incase anyone was
waiting to join to see if they were going to move. Here's the link
again:
http://familyrun.ning.com/)
The purpose of the list is to *add* to the mainstream information
people are and have been immersed in from birth. The list lets them
observe and question what it's like, to see it all in action (as best
as words allow!) From that combination they can make whatever choice
they feel is best for their family.
Does that help anyone picture the list's purpose and intent better?
I'm really interested in knowing! While I've read people's "aha!"s
when an explanation helps them get why not to teach their 6 yo to
read, why chores can be counter productive, I've never once in 15
years seen anyone get why the list operates as it does.
The problem is that *to the protected one* protection *from something
that intrigues them* doesn't feel like respect or love. That's natural
to human psychology. A parent's (or spouse's or social worker's or
minister's) loving intent can't change psychology.
If someone doesn't want to damage their relationship with their child
-- *especially* if someone decides to protect their child from a
potential interest -- it's important to know how the protection feels
to the child! It's important to know that a parent's good intentions
won't counteract actions that have the opposite feel to the child.
It's good to know that protection from something interesting
(especially if it's everywhere in society) will chip away at a child's
trust in his parent. It's good to know why a child will then decide
the parent won't help them explore so, if the drive to explore is
great enough, they'll do it on their own or find someone who will help.
If someone decides to limit *and* they understand how it feels from
their child's point of view, they might be able to come up with better
than conventional approaches. They'll be able to see the pitfalls and
perhaps find a way to get around them or at least partially fill them.
Unschooling parents provide lots of guidance. It doesn't look like
conventional parental guidance so I think it gets dismissed as no
guidance.
Radical unschooling guidance looks similar to the guidance given to a
friend or spouse who might want to explore an area you're familar
with. (But not similar on all points!) It's more like the guidance
you'd give to someone you trust to explore however they want with no
pressure to do it your way. Radical unschoolers support their kids
exploration and help them find safe and respectful ways to explore.
Parents provide a safe and respectful environment.
As an example, if a mom was into natural foods, she would provide
meals and snacks that she felt were "good". What she provides is sort
of like the bulk of the smorgasbord. To that she'd include the things
her kids asked for. (Obviously money is a natural limitation for some
but she would do what she could so they felt their requests were very
important to her.) She might, if it were important to her, also offer
some similar foods like their requests that she thought were
"better" (nutrition, taste, quality, whatever) but with no pressure
for the kids to prefer her choice. It's information to help them
decide what's good and important to them. She would share with them
when they ask why she makes the choices she does for herself and for
the family, but, again, with no pressure for the kids to make the same
choices.
Do people object when suggestions on a vegan list are limited to no
animal products? Maybe they do! They shouldn't though.
Is the definition of radical unschooling seen as looser, something
people can shape to suit their needs? Is it because the list is called
unschooling (even though the description is of radical unschooling)?
Is that what makes the definition feel looser?
who have indicated by joining the list that they want to apply a
radical unschooling approach to the issues they bring to the list.
That's the purpose of the list. That's the niche Ren and Kelly wanted
it to fill. Some people join the list thinking it's something else, or
that the list should meet whatever need they bring to it. And then
they get upset that the list won't meet their needs. Which is sort of
like ignoring the "Mexican Food" on the restaurant sign and getting
angry that they won't provide a plate of spaghetti.
Every list has a focus. For *any* list -- and real life group -- it's
good -- so the group and the person don't waste their time -- to find
out what the purpose and focus is rather than assuming.
different than it is here. While I do offer unschooling ideas as food
for thought to counter the "truths" that are accepted by everyone
around them-- that learning to read will happen in a supportive
environment without instruction, for example -- I go out of my way to
reassure people that the approach they take should suit their needs
and goals but that it's useful to know that schools do things the way
they do not because they have the key to the best way to impart
knowledge but for entirely different reasons. It's information to help
them make better choices for *their* goals.
This list's purpose isn't to support anyone's goals. The list is to
support anyone's determination to try out radical unschooling ideas.
Is that any clearer to anyone who has reached this far ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My "fear" of mainstream culture and my insistence on bedtimes andI wish there were a way to help people understand the list isn't like
> fairly decent eating (I'm really pretty loose on all of these, I
> swear!)
a club where people are accepted or rejected.
Maybe this will help: the list exists to provide immersion in a life
view that few people can find anywhere else. Where else can people go
to experience and try out what it's like to fully live the principles
of radical unschooling without compromise?
I know people want to connect with like minded folks and share with
each other. That's why I gave the link to the Radical Unschoolers
Network. (BTW, Laura has decided to stay with Ning incase anyone was
waiting to join to see if they were going to move. Here's the link
again:
http://familyrun.ning.com/)
The purpose of the list is to *add* to the mainstream information
people are and have been immersed in from birth. The list lets them
observe and question what it's like, to see it all in action (as best
as words allow!) From that combination they can make whatever choice
they feel is best for their family.
Does that help anyone picture the list's purpose and intent better?
I'm really interested in knowing! While I've read people's "aha!"s
when an explanation helps them get why not to teach their 6 yo to
read, why chores can be counter productive, I've never once in 15
years seen anyone get why the list operates as it does.
> do come out of respect for my kidsThat's why all caring parents protect their kids.
The problem is that *to the protected one* protection *from something
that intrigues them* doesn't feel like respect or love. That's natural
to human psychology. A parent's (or spouse's or social worker's or
minister's) loving intent can't change psychology.
If someone doesn't want to damage their relationship with their child
-- *especially* if someone decides to protect their child from a
potential interest -- it's important to know how the protection feels
to the child! It's important to know that a parent's good intentions
won't counteract actions that have the opposite feel to the child.
It's good to know that protection from something interesting
(especially if it's everywhere in society) will chip away at a child's
trust in his parent. It's good to know why a child will then decide
the parent won't help them explore so, if the drive to explore is
great enough, they'll do it on their own or find someone who will help.
If someone decides to limit *and* they understand how it feels from
their child's point of view, they might be able to come up with better
than conventional approaches. They'll be able to see the pitfalls and
perhaps find a way to get around them or at least partially fill them.
> I think adults need to provide some guidance,Please show me where anyone has said don't provide guidance.
Unschooling parents provide lots of guidance. It doesn't look like
conventional parental guidance so I think it gets dismissed as no
guidance.
Radical unschooling guidance looks similar to the guidance given to a
friend or spouse who might want to explore an area you're familar
with. (But not similar on all points!) It's more like the guidance
you'd give to someone you trust to explore however they want with no
pressure to do it your way. Radical unschoolers support their kids
exploration and help them find safe and respectful ways to explore.
Parents provide a safe and respectful environment.
As an example, if a mom was into natural foods, she would provide
meals and snacks that she felt were "good". What she provides is sort
of like the bulk of the smorgasbord. To that she'd include the things
her kids asked for. (Obviously money is a natural limitation for some
but she would do what she could so they felt their requests were very
important to her.) She might, if it were important to her, also offer
some similar foods like their requests that she thought were
"better" (nutrition, taste, quality, whatever) but with no pressure
for the kids to prefer her choice. It's information to help them
decide what's good and important to them. She would share with them
when they ask why she makes the choices she does for herself and for
the family, but, again, with no pressure for the kids to make the same
choices.
> But, again, I feel the lists (I already quit Sandra's) leave lessThis objection I never understand. Veganism means no animal products.
> room for dissent and diversity of experience than schools do,
Do people object when suggestions on a vegan list are limited to no
animal products? Maybe they do! They shouldn't though.
Is the definition of radical unschooling seen as looser, something
people can shape to suit their needs? Is it because the list is called
unschooling (even though the description is of radical unschooling)?
Is that what makes the definition feel looser?
> which is unfortunate if you're really trying to change societyAh, well, I'm not trying to change society! I'm trying to help moms
who have indicated by joining the list that they want to apply a
radical unschooling approach to the issues they bring to the list.
That's the purpose of the list. That's the niche Ren and Kelly wanted
it to fill. Some people join the list thinking it's something else, or
that the list should meet whatever need they bring to it. And then
they get upset that the list won't meet their needs. Which is sort of
like ignoring the "Mexican Food" on the restaurant sign and getting
angry that they won't provide a plate of spaghetti.
Every list has a focus. For *any* list -- and real life group -- it's
good -- so the group and the person don't waste their time -- to find
out what the purpose and focus is rather than assuming.
> If you really want to change things, don't be quite so sure of yourOn the local homeschoolers list I'm on, my approach is totally
> own thinking, I say.
different than it is here. While I do offer unschooling ideas as food
for thought to counter the "truths" that are accepted by everyone
around them-- that learning to read will happen in a supportive
environment without instruction, for example -- I go out of my way to
reassure people that the approach they take should suit their needs
and goals but that it's useful to know that schools do things the way
they do not because they have the key to the best way to impart
knowledge but for entirely different reasons. It's information to help
them make better choices for *their* goals.
This list's purpose isn't to support anyone's goals. The list is to
support anyone's determination to try out radical unschooling ideas.
Is that any clearer to anyone who has reached this far ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachelle Marsden
> As an example, if a mom was into natural foods, she would provideI really understand what you're saying here and feel in alignment with this
> meals and snacks that she felt were "good". What she provides is sort
> of like the bulk of the smorgasbord. To that she'd include the things
> her kids asked for. (Obviously money is a natural limitation for some
> but she would do what she could so they felt their requests were very
> important to her.) She might, if it were important to her, also offer
> some similar foods like their requests that she thought were
> "better" (nutrition, taste, quality, whatever) but with no pressure
> for the kids to prefer her choice. It's information to help them
> decide what's good and important to them. She would share with them
> when they ask why she makes the choices she does for herself and for
> the family, but, again, with no pressure for the kids to make the same
> choices.
statement on many levels. What is challenging for us with this is that we
spend time discussing this with our son, telling him why we feel it
important to eat certain foods to support the body and brain, and he
listens, and then chooses to eat other less healthy things very
frequently. We occasionally point out what these choices mean to him,
ensuring we are giving him space and not nagging him, and he seems to not
care or not to understand. He is 4 years old and I feel that at this age he
is unable to grasp the full awareness of how his choices impact his physical
and mental well-being. The concept of how to make choices that will
maintain well-being seems beyond him when it comes to food, so I then feel
the need to step in after several days of his choices of food and tell him
he needs to eat a bite or two of some vegetables or fruit. I'd love to hear
how others approach this.
We don't have any real "junk food" in our house, but when he chooses what to
eat for a meal or snack, it's usually the same food type (potatoes, meat,
pasta, beans, bread and other flour products, raw milk, cheese, etc.) and
rarely includes many fruits or vegetables.
I am responsible for his well being in terms of ensuring that my loving
intent offers him freedom and empowerment and I'm also responsible for
ensuring that his body and brain are developing to their highest potential.
I'm wondering how to strike this balance as when I push him to eat foods
that support that potential, I'm adding to the "physical well-being" jar
perhaps at the expense of the "freedom and empowerment" jar.
Rachelle
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike haupt
Dear Joyce
You wrote
"Ah, well, I'm not trying to change society! I'm trying to help moms
who have indicated by joining the list that they want to apply a
radical unschooling approach to the issues they bring to the list.
That's the purpose of the list. That's the niche Ren and Kelly wanted
it to fill. Some people join the list thinking it's something else, or
that the list should meet whatever need they bring to it. And then
they get upset that the list won't meet their needs. Which is sort of
like ignoring the "Mexican Food" on the restaurant sign and getting
angry that they won't provide a plate of spaghetti.
Every list has a focus. For *any* list -- and real life group -- it's
good -- so the group and the person don't waste their time -- to find
out what the purpose and focus is rather than assuming."
<snip>
"This list's purpose isn't to support anyone's goals. The list is to
support anyone's determination to try out radical unschooling ideas.
Is that any clearer to anyone who has reached this far ;-)"
My Response ---
YES, YES, YES!
I came to this list many years ago to learn all I could about the principles
and concepts of unschooling - which for me is parenting in full respect and
acknowledgement of my childrens identities and beingness and my own position
within our relationships and how it affected their growth into becoming who
they intended to be or how my intereference would hinder their growth. And I
have learned, boy have I learned and I am still learning. That is why I am
still a member of this list after about 9 years.
Coming to this list with the intention of 'proving me being right' is not
the most helpful way for anyone to come to embracing the ideas of
unschooling as in - I'll trust my child to be able to learn what they need
to make their way into the world' much less into radical unschooling which
basically says "I trust my child to know - and learn - what is right for
them - be it knowledge, skills, everyday functions like food intake, sleep,
actvities, social skills and interactions and so many more - and the most
important thing in this is to hold our relationship sacred." Really - after
all these years the most fundamental thing I learned about unschooling is
the sacredness of the relatonships we as parents can have with our children
and how we endanger this 'holy grail' every time when we contemplate
'mainstream' parenting endeavours to control behaviour or ensure seeming
safety.
Thank you owners and moderators of this list to look after the intentions of
radical unschooling while not trying to change society per se but to just
provide examples of how to find that sacred place of connecting withing and
with our children to hold each other in highest regard.
Blissings
Ulrike
From Namibia - somewhere in Africa
PS - I am a little bit emotional at this point as we had a most agreeable
mothersday feast with lots of family today and my father told my nearly 18
year old son to behave at the dinner table. My father is nearly 92. And we
(my brothers and I) were told all the good manners, of course. (loopsided
grin) I was so glad that A. was willing to join us at all. He is not a
'crowd person' at all. And he (A) took the 'correction' with great dignity.
He took down his 'offending legs', sat up straight (my he is a seating
giant!), head back, nose high and said, kind of under his breath 'We are
highly offended.' (and took another bite at his chicken drumstick) Was he
indicating the being offended by his grandparents words or was he playing
the offense of the old man? I don't know yet. Maybe I never will. But A. did
not get up and leave the table right then and there in a huff. And just
minutes after this incident my granddaughter was told by her other
grandmother to also 'behave'. And she ignored this rebuke royally. Good for
her. Actually the whole thing kind of deteriorated from there even though
nobody was aware. The other granddaughter then spilled all of her jello onto
the white table cloth. We spooned it back into her bowl and she finished it
with gusto also using her hands (Did you know that you can eat jello with
your hands? :). AND nobody said a word! Actually I am very, VERY happy to
have my parents living near us since February this year. We have had Easter
and Mother's Day as an extended family feast together already. Neither my
parents nor the other 'grandparents' or even my daughter and her boyfriend
(father of the two sweetnesses) are into 'unschooling' even though they love
the children and grandchildren in their own way. So I do my 'unschooling' in
a sneaky and behind the scenes way to defuse situations. What is the saying,
"Please pass the bean dish.!" Thank you for 'listening'. I don't think I am
emotional anymore. :)
U
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5099 (20100509) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
You wrote
"Ah, well, I'm not trying to change society! I'm trying to help moms
who have indicated by joining the list that they want to apply a
radical unschooling approach to the issues they bring to the list.
That's the purpose of the list. That's the niche Ren and Kelly wanted
it to fill. Some people join the list thinking it's something else, or
that the list should meet whatever need they bring to it. And then
they get upset that the list won't meet their needs. Which is sort of
like ignoring the "Mexican Food" on the restaurant sign and getting
angry that they won't provide a plate of spaghetti.
Every list has a focus. For *any* list -- and real life group -- it's
good -- so the group and the person don't waste their time -- to find
out what the purpose and focus is rather than assuming."
<snip>
"This list's purpose isn't to support anyone's goals. The list is to
support anyone's determination to try out radical unschooling ideas.
Is that any clearer to anyone who has reached this far ;-)"
My Response ---
YES, YES, YES!
I came to this list many years ago to learn all I could about the principles
and concepts of unschooling - which for me is parenting in full respect and
acknowledgement of my childrens identities and beingness and my own position
within our relationships and how it affected their growth into becoming who
they intended to be or how my intereference would hinder their growth. And I
have learned, boy have I learned and I am still learning. That is why I am
still a member of this list after about 9 years.
Coming to this list with the intention of 'proving me being right' is not
the most helpful way for anyone to come to embracing the ideas of
unschooling as in - I'll trust my child to be able to learn what they need
to make their way into the world' much less into radical unschooling which
basically says "I trust my child to know - and learn - what is right for
them - be it knowledge, skills, everyday functions like food intake, sleep,
actvities, social skills and interactions and so many more - and the most
important thing in this is to hold our relationship sacred." Really - after
all these years the most fundamental thing I learned about unschooling is
the sacredness of the relatonships we as parents can have with our children
and how we endanger this 'holy grail' every time when we contemplate
'mainstream' parenting endeavours to control behaviour or ensure seeming
safety.
Thank you owners and moderators of this list to look after the intentions of
radical unschooling while not trying to change society per se but to just
provide examples of how to find that sacred place of connecting withing and
with our children to hold each other in highest regard.
Blissings
Ulrike
From Namibia - somewhere in Africa
PS - I am a little bit emotional at this point as we had a most agreeable
mothersday feast with lots of family today and my father told my nearly 18
year old son to behave at the dinner table. My father is nearly 92. And we
(my brothers and I) were told all the good manners, of course. (loopsided
grin) I was so glad that A. was willing to join us at all. He is not a
'crowd person' at all. And he (A) took the 'correction' with great dignity.
He took down his 'offending legs', sat up straight (my he is a seating
giant!), head back, nose high and said, kind of under his breath 'We are
highly offended.' (and took another bite at his chicken drumstick) Was he
indicating the being offended by his grandparents words or was he playing
the offense of the old man? I don't know yet. Maybe I never will. But A. did
not get up and leave the table right then and there in a huff. And just
minutes after this incident my granddaughter was told by her other
grandmother to also 'behave'. And she ignored this rebuke royally. Good for
her. Actually the whole thing kind of deteriorated from there even though
nobody was aware. The other granddaughter then spilled all of her jello onto
the white table cloth. We spooned it back into her bowl and she finished it
with gusto also using her hands (Did you know that you can eat jello with
your hands? :). AND nobody said a word! Actually I am very, VERY happy to
have my parents living near us since February this year. We have had Easter
and Mother's Day as an extended family feast together already. Neither my
parents nor the other 'grandparents' or even my daughter and her boyfriend
(father of the two sweetnesses) are into 'unschooling' even though they love
the children and grandchildren in their own way. So I do my 'unschooling' in
a sneaky and behind the scenes way to defuse situations. What is the saying,
"Please pass the bean dish.!" Thank you for 'listening'. I don't think I am
emotional anymore. :)
U
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5099 (20100509) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
http://www.eset.com
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I highly suggest you read this page AND the many links in here:
http://sandradodd.com/food
and this one:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/food/food.html
Make sure you watch the video Obesity Begins at home linked in there.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/food
and this one:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/influencing%20kid%20behavior/food/food.html
Make sure you watch the video Obesity Begins at home linked in there.
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sacha Davis
I totally agree that at age 4 your son is unable to grasp nutrition and
what makes a food healthy, and that things that taste good aren't always
good food choices. He's four.
My son is three and would live on peanut butter and jelly if he could.
And jelly beans. And ice cream. We try to limit how many sweets we have
in the house but if he finds them and asks for them, he gets them.
We have handled things this way. From the moment our son put food in his
mouth he has been allowed to choose what he does and doesn't eat. We have
NEVER made him take a bite of something for any reason. Okay, maybe I've
gotten frustrated a few times and tried to make him take a bite but it
didn't work. My goal as his parent is that he develops a healthy
relationship with food, not that he learns to eat how I teach him but that
he is able to eat in a healthy manner, to recognize healthy choices and
unhealthy choices, and him having control over his food is far more
important than him taking a bite of vegetables or fruit every few weeks.
So I don't bother. Nutrition intake over one day is so unimportant to me
compared to looking at the big picture.
The food pickiness is a stage and it will end. In the meantime, you can
give a multivitamin. You can buy enriched bread. You can keep offering
healthy fruits and veggies knowing that he WILL eat them at some point.
These things will help support his brain and body development while
allowing him to maintain independence and you to support his freedom and
empowerment.
One other thing I do with my son is have him COOK with me. It's hard
having a 3 year old in the kitchen but it's also joyous. We made
vegetable soup a few weeks ago and he had so much fun, then sat down and
ate 1.5 bowls of veggie soup that included green beans, corn, kale and all
kinds of VEGETABLES. He has a lot of motivation to eat healthy foods that
he's helped make.
Hope that helps.
S.
what makes a food healthy, and that things that taste good aren't always
good food choices. He's four.
My son is three and would live on peanut butter and jelly if he could.
And jelly beans. And ice cream. We try to limit how many sweets we have
in the house but if he finds them and asks for them, he gets them.
We have handled things this way. From the moment our son put food in his
mouth he has been allowed to choose what he does and doesn't eat. We have
NEVER made him take a bite of something for any reason. Okay, maybe I've
gotten frustrated a few times and tried to make him take a bite but it
didn't work. My goal as his parent is that he develops a healthy
relationship with food, not that he learns to eat how I teach him but that
he is able to eat in a healthy manner, to recognize healthy choices and
unhealthy choices, and him having control over his food is far more
important than him taking a bite of vegetables or fruit every few weeks.
So I don't bother. Nutrition intake over one day is so unimportant to me
compared to looking at the big picture.
The food pickiness is a stage and it will end. In the meantime, you can
give a multivitamin. You can buy enriched bread. You can keep offering
healthy fruits and veggies knowing that he WILL eat them at some point.
These things will help support his brain and body development while
allowing him to maintain independence and you to support his freedom and
empowerment.
One other thing I do with my son is have him COOK with me. It's hard
having a 3 year old in the kitchen but it's also joyous. We made
vegetable soup a few weeks ago and he had so much fun, then sat down and
ate 1.5 bowls of veggie soup that included green beans, corn, kale and all
kinds of VEGETABLES. He has a lot of motivation to eat healthy foods that
he's helped make.
Hope that helps.
S.
> I really understand what you're saying here and feel in alignment with
> this
> statement on many levels. What is challenging for us with this is that we
> spend time discussing this with our son, telling him why we feel it
> important to eat certain foods to support the body and brain, and he
> listens, and then chooses to eat other less healthy things very
> frequently. We occasionally point out what these choices mean to him,
> ensuring we are giving him space and not nagging him, and he seems to not
> care or not to understand. He is 4 years old and I feel that at this age
> he
> is unable to grasp the full awareness of how his choices impact his
> physical
> and mental well-being. The concept of how to make choices that will
> maintain well-being seems beyond him when it comes to food, so I then feel
> the need to step in after several days of his choices of food and tell him
> he needs to eat a bite or two of some vegetables or fruit. I'd love to
> hear
> how others approach this.
>
> We don't have any real "junk food" in our house, but when he chooses what
> to
> eat for a meal or snack, it's usually the same food type (potatoes, meat,
> pasta, beans, bread and other flour products, raw milk, cheese, etc.) and
> rarely includes many fruits or vegetables.
>
> I am responsible for his well being in terms of ensuring that my loving
> intent offers him freedom and empowerment and I'm also responsible for
> ensuring that his body and brain are developing to their highest
> potential.
> I'm wondering how to strike this balance as when I push him to eat foods
> that support that potential, I'm adding to the "physical well-being" jar
> perhaps at the expense of the "freedom and empowerment" jar.
>
> Rachelle
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 9, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Rachelle Marsden wrote:
narrowing. It happens to lots of kids. It's natural. And mysterious.
While it doesn't make sense there must be some biological reason for it.
What's important --- for his future relationship with food and for
your relationship with him is: It's not a choice he's making but a
response to a change in his biology. Before 4 Kathryn had a wide
variety of foods she enjoyed and was very adventurous with food. And
then her choices started narrowing and remained limited until she was
12. Then they broadened again and she'd try anything. (And at 18 she's
tall and healthy despite 8 years of subsisting on cereal and olives.
Okay, not quite that bad, but not much better!)
It may be a reaction to texture. Or a reaction to flavors. Something
in his body chemistry may be causing things to taste not wonderful.
Probably the way to help you understand his point of view is to
imagine what the world of food would be like if nearly everything
started tasting like a food you really detest. Liver? Raw onions? What
if your husband had discussions about how you needed to eat
differently and why? But his discussions didn't change the
gagworthiness of the food you once enjoyed. What if he got frustrated
with your "not caring or not understanding" and made you eat the
liverish food?
You can't make him like stuff that's turning him off. You can make him
dislike it even more.
Someone once asked a mom how she got her kid to like broccoli. She
said she didn't do anything to make him hate broccoli.
Trust him. His body understands itself and what it needs even if it
doesn't make sense. Find other ways to offer --- but not force! -- a
variety of foods. Monkey platters are a great idea:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters
(But keep in mind, that for most of history, humans subsisted on
narrow, local diets. They couldn't get oranges from Florida and
zucchinis from Argentina. ;-) When the winter stores were gone, they
were gone. I'm not holding up ancient people as the epitome of health
(we can't know that) but that it was natural for our bodies to not
have a lot of different foods so it's what they evolved to survive on.)
There's an entire art form in Japan devoted to persuading kids to
eat ;-) It's not just American kids! It's kids all over the world.
Here's something I posted on AlwaysLearning last year. The lunchinabox
site is doable, and the others are fun, :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> so I then feelThat's the same age when my daughter Kathryn's food tastes started
> the need to step in after several days of his choices of food and
> tell him
> he needs to eat a bite or two of some vegetables or fruit. I'd love
> to hear
> how others approach this.
narrowing. It happens to lots of kids. It's natural. And mysterious.
While it doesn't make sense there must be some biological reason for it.
What's important --- for his future relationship with food and for
your relationship with him is: It's not a choice he's making but a
response to a change in his biology. Before 4 Kathryn had a wide
variety of foods she enjoyed and was very adventurous with food. And
then her choices started narrowing and remained limited until she was
12. Then they broadened again and she'd try anything. (And at 18 she's
tall and healthy despite 8 years of subsisting on cereal and olives.
Okay, not quite that bad, but not much better!)
It may be a reaction to texture. Or a reaction to flavors. Something
in his body chemistry may be causing things to taste not wonderful.
Probably the way to help you understand his point of view is to
imagine what the world of food would be like if nearly everything
started tasting like a food you really detest. Liver? Raw onions? What
if your husband had discussions about how you needed to eat
differently and why? But his discussions didn't change the
gagworthiness of the food you once enjoyed. What if he got frustrated
with your "not caring or not understanding" and made you eat the
liverish food?
You can't make him like stuff that's turning him off. You can make him
dislike it even more.
Someone once asked a mom how she got her kid to like broccoli. She
said she didn't do anything to make him hate broccoli.
Trust him. His body understands itself and what it needs even if it
doesn't make sense. Find other ways to offer --- but not force! -- a
variety of foods. Monkey platters are a great idea:
http://sandradodd.com/monkeyplatters
(But keep in mind, that for most of history, humans subsisted on
narrow, local diets. They couldn't get oranges from Florida and
zucchinis from Argentina. ;-) When the winter stores were gone, they
were gone. I'm not holding up ancient people as the epitome of health
(we can't know that) but that it was natural for our bodies to not
have a lot of different foods so it's what they evolved to survive on.)
There's an entire art form in Japan devoted to persuading kids to
eat ;-) It's not just American kids! It's kids all over the world.
Here's something I posted on AlwaysLearning last year. The lunchinabox
site is doable, and the others are fun, :-)
> Ah, well, if wandering into the territory of octopus hotdogs, no oneJoyce
> beats the Japanese ;-) There's a tradition to making cute food in box
> lunches (bento) for kids to encourage them to eat a variety.
>
> http://lunchinabox.net/2008/02/22/how-to-make-an-octodog-octopus-hot-
> dog/
>
> Apparently they look better fried than boiled (which will send those
> who cringe at hotdogs over the edge ;-)
>
> Then there's Apple rabbits:
> http://lunchinabox.net/2007/12/13/how-to-make-apple-rabbits/
>
> Molded eggs:
> http://lunchinabox.net/2006/06/22/williams-sonoma-for-egg-molds/
>
> And more decorative foods:
> http://lunchinabox.net/recipes/decorative-food/
>
> And to get fancy:
>
> Octopus girl:
> http://www.aibento.net/2009/04/miss-octopus-bento-344/
> if you scroll down you can see some of the molds used to shape food
> and cut out nori with.
>
> Goldilocks and the Three Bears:
> http://www.aibento.net/2009/03/goldilocks-and-the-three-bears-bento-330/
>
> And to get really fancy, do a Google Image search (http://
> www.google.com/imghp) on:
>
> "oekaki bento" or oekakiben -- picture bento
>
> kyaraben or charaben -- short for character bento
> There have even contests for this. Image search on "kyaraben contest"
>
> Here's a couple of blogs on bento making (not just the cute ones).
> http://www.aibento.net/
> http://justbento.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 6, 2010, at 7:24 PM, lilyfoil wrote:
who need reassurance that they're okay even if they're imperfect and
those who know that being imperfect is part of being human and want to
actively work towards better.
It would be impossible for someone to answer more than a handful of
posts from beginners if they expected moms to be perfect! Can you
imagine a virtuoso opera singer having the patience for an adult ed
beginning singing class? Can you imagine the virtuoso eagerly doing
that for years?
What it takes to answer the same beginner's questions for years and
years is a deep compassion for those who are brave enough to step off
the traditional path into the uncertain chaos of unschooling where all
the maps of learning they expected to help are useless. It takes
insight and understanding into why people hold the beliefs they do so
a bridge can be built from where they are to where they imply want to
go by joining the list.
I don't expect new unschoolers to be perfect. I *expect* they have, as
I did, as most do, very limited experience with trusting children and
trusting the natural process of learning. They're clogged up with
false truths and fears. All they have are examples of how to control
kids.
But new unschoolers come in the two kinds. And they have needs that
don't mesh. The support for their self worth that the first kind need
holds back the second kind. the difficult work of self-examination
and working through the fallout from change for something the second
kind sees is better on the other side. The analysis and dissection of
situations the second kind need is felt as criticism by the first kind.
I wish there were a way to meet the needs of both on one list, but
there isn't. It's too soft for one and too harsh for the other. Ren
and Kelly found the help for the second kind helped them best when
they began. It's the kind of help they enjoy being involved with and
continuing.
Here's the hard part to get: The list feels like a bunch of moms eager
to give personal help to whoever comes along. But the process really
involves someone seeing an idea that sparks their need to write about
it. It's that burning desire to put thoughts into words that fills the
list with good ideas.
If a questioner is of the second type, the answers will seem tailor
made but it's just because she matches the type of writing people do.
If she's of the second type, she'll feel attacked.
People are writing what inspires them in the ways that are natural,
not tailoring to what someone needs.
rather than reprimanding the people who are helping in the ways that
naturally flow for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> sometimes I fear that all parenting experts -- includingAt the risk of being simplistic, there are two kinds of people: those
> unschooling ones -- expect mothers to be saints, while society
> really supports no mom.
who need reassurance that they're okay even if they're imperfect and
those who know that being imperfect is part of being human and want to
actively work towards better.
It would be impossible for someone to answer more than a handful of
posts from beginners if they expected moms to be perfect! Can you
imagine a virtuoso opera singer having the patience for an adult ed
beginning singing class? Can you imagine the virtuoso eagerly doing
that for years?
What it takes to answer the same beginner's questions for years and
years is a deep compassion for those who are brave enough to step off
the traditional path into the uncertain chaos of unschooling where all
the maps of learning they expected to help are useless. It takes
insight and understanding into why people hold the beliefs they do so
a bridge can be built from where they are to where they imply want to
go by joining the list.
I don't expect new unschoolers to be perfect. I *expect* they have, as
I did, as most do, very limited experience with trusting children and
trusting the natural process of learning. They're clogged up with
false truths and fears. All they have are examples of how to control
kids.
But new unschoolers come in the two kinds. And they have needs that
don't mesh. The support for their self worth that the first kind need
holds back the second kind. the difficult work of self-examination
and working through the fallout from change for something the second
kind sees is better on the other side. The analysis and dissection of
situations the second kind need is felt as criticism by the first kind.
I wish there were a way to meet the needs of both on one list, but
there isn't. It's too soft for one and too harsh for the other. Ren
and Kelly found the help for the second kind helped them best when
they began. It's the kind of help they enjoy being involved with and
continuing.
Here's the hard part to get: The list feels like a bunch of moms eager
to give personal help to whoever comes along. But the process really
involves someone seeing an idea that sparks their need to write about
it. It's that burning desire to put thoughts into words that fills the
list with good ideas.
If a questioner is of the second type, the answers will seem tailor
made but it's just because she matches the type of writing people do.
If she's of the second type, she'll feel attacked.
People are writing what inspires them in the ways that are natural,
not tailoring to what someone needs.
> sometimes I fear that all parenting experts -- includingIf anyone thinks a sympathetic voice is lacking, you could add it
> unschooling ones -- expect mothers to be saints
rather than reprimanding the people who are helping in the ways that
naturally flow for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], Rachelle Marsden <overhereinheaven@...> wrote:
If you disagree with his choices to the point that its damaging your relationship, that's something to notice and think about. Maybe you can change your perspective. Maybe you can disregard his perspective. The main thing is to step away from the assumption that you can somehow Give another person your perspective. He will come to share it, or not.
If he's eating a lot of things that worry you, it can help to consider any other factors, besides the ingredients, that make those things more attractive than other foods. Children *will* choose foods that are more convenient and more attractive, so its very important to make nutritionally dense foods that are both. But children also often do very well with lots and lots of nutritionally sparse foods - lots of refined flours and sugars, with just small amounts of foods with more vitamins and enzymes. They don't need as much of those things as we may think. A "single serving" of fruit for a child is tiny - a couple grapes. Its nothing, by adult standards. A full cup of juice can easily contain all the nutrition, apart from raw calories, that a kid needs (and a kid who needs more will eat more!).
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>We occasionally point out what these choices mean to himAs uncomfortable as it is, it can help to see that what you are pointing out is what those choices mean from your perspective - which is totally different than "what they mean to him". Different people have different perspectives. Different bodies will have different reactions to food and different personalities will develop different relationships with food. So what you're really saying, from a child's perspective, is "this maybe might happen to have some effect that you maybe might happen to not be thrilled with in seven or eight or your lifetimes". Its gibberish to a child.
If you disagree with his choices to the point that its damaging your relationship, that's something to notice and think about. Maybe you can change your perspective. Maybe you can disregard his perspective. The main thing is to step away from the assumption that you can somehow Give another person your perspective. He will come to share it, or not.
>>he seems to notThat's one of the natural consequences of expressing strong opinions to children over and over - its not the Only natural consequence, but to some extent that's a personality issue. Your words are less valuable to him than his direct experience, and his direct experience is that you're wrong, and thus untrustworthy as a source of information.
> care or not to understand.
If he's eating a lot of things that worry you, it can help to consider any other factors, besides the ingredients, that make those things more attractive than other foods. Children *will* choose foods that are more convenient and more attractive, so its very important to make nutritionally dense foods that are both. But children also often do very well with lots and lots of nutritionally sparse foods - lots of refined flours and sugars, with just small amounts of foods with more vitamins and enzymes. They don't need as much of those things as we may think. A "single serving" of fruit for a child is tiny - a couple grapes. Its nothing, by adult standards. A full cup of juice can easily contain all the nutrition, apart from raw calories, that a kid needs (and a kid who needs more will eat more!).
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
plaidpanties666
--- In [email protected], "Sacha Davis" <sacha@...> wrote:
One summer Mo lived on milk and crackers - a handful of crackers a day. I worried. Her health was, and continues to be fantastic.
Somewhere around 4ish, things change. There's a shift in what kids are ready for, developmentally, and they let you know it by asking for more. That's when they start wanting to be part of the process of choosing what comes into the house - making decisions in the store, and even wanting to explore different stores. At the same time, their palates tend to narrow - its a "safty device" if you will. Wanting to explore is good, but tasting everything in the world isn't. So they want lots of things that give "safe" messages. Make plenty available! But also realize they're going to want a say in those "safe" choices.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>>Sounds like an ideal diet - starch, protein, fruit - what more do you want? Feed him all the pb&j he can eat!
> My son is three and would live on peanut butter and jelly if he could.
One summer Mo lived on milk and crackers - a handful of crackers a day. I worried. Her health was, and continues to be fantastic.
> And jelly beans. And ice cream. We try to limit how many sweets we haveWith younger kids - up until around age 4ish - freedom and empowerment around food really only have to do with what's in the house anyway. Kids aren't interested in the rest - they don't Want all the choices in the world. Lets be rrrrreeeeeaaaaallllly clear about that! Those "critical years" when food is sooooo important are years when kids are Happy to eat what's in the house. They want to make decisions about when and how to eat from what's readily available.
> in the house but if he finds them and asks for them, he gets them.
Somewhere around 4ish, things change. There's a shift in what kids are ready for, developmentally, and they let you know it by asking for more. That's when they start wanting to be part of the process of choosing what comes into the house - making decisions in the store, and even wanting to explore different stores. At the same time, their palates tend to narrow - its a "safty device" if you will. Wanting to explore is good, but tasting everything in the world isn't. So they want lots of things that give "safe" messages. Make plenty available! But also realize they're going to want a say in those "safe" choices.
---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)