Shira Rocklin

Or more, the deschooling that I think we are going through.
Internalizing what I am learning about all of this.

I have been observing, when around other families and children, that my
children don't have 'melt-downs,' or refuse to share, or whatever 'bad'
behaviour any more often than the conventionally parented children!
Despite never being forced to share, or being put in time-outs, or any
kind of discipline, my 3yo isn't any more mis-behaved than the average
kid! And I feel like we are so close, and that our relationship is so
good, and that she is not afraid to come to me with silly or difficult
stuff, even at her young age. So, I guess I am just saying thanks for
all of what I've been reading here, and elsewhere, which has helped me
keep on with this path, and that it is so gratifying to see that our
kids are pretty much the same, and to know that my relationship with her
is so strong.

I think I was under a sort of misconception that unschooling would help
produce kids who never do anything wrong. I can't think specifically of
examples. I guess food would be one. I kind of thought, well, you
don't limit the food, so they gain a healthy perspective, listen to
their bodies, etc... so then my conclusion was that unschooled kids
couldn't ever be overweight, because that wouldn't be balance learned
through listening to their bodies. But I'm wrong, right? My impression
is quickly becoming that unschooled kids are probably pretty much the
same, just the process is different. I'm having trouble expressing
this. Like, our teenagers will make mistakes, they might do something
illegal, or drink too much, or get arrested for something, just like
other teenagers. But the difference will be that they will want to talk
to us, be with us, rather than hide it from us.

But then I have doubts. So, if the results are the same kind of people,
except the relationship with parents is different, possibly closer and
more open in the end, then... it would be easier to just put them
through school, right? If all I cared about was the results. But I do
care about the relationship more, though. I'm confused a bit, I think.

Can anyone write some thoughts and maybe that will help me organize what
I am thinking?

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>> But then I have doubts. So, if the results are the same kind of people,
> except the relationship with parents is different, possibly closer and
> more open in the end, then... it would be easier to just put them
> through school, right?

There are a couple different issues tied up together, here, I think. One is the idea of "result" - if people have closer and more open relationship, that's a different "result" right there. That's worth something. If people are making choices that aren't based *as much* in baggage, that's something, too. If people are less stressed because there's a little more kindness in their world Right Now, that's a good thing.

Beyond that, though, I think you're asking a question about human nature. Its something that a lot of parents wonder - can we do better? Can we make our kids "better" people? And what does that mean?

Unschooling doesn't improve on human nature - that's the best we have. That's a statement that can seem reeeealllllly hopeless, or exactly the opposite, depending on how you read it, your state of mine, I mean, when you read it. It can be an expression of awe: Human nature is The Best, and we've Got that. When we help one another, as people value our needs and wants and wishes, and meet those, whenever we possibly can, human nature is a wonder. Its when we get bogged down in baggage that its crap.

>>> Like, our teenagers will make mistakes, they might do something
> illegal, or drink too much, or get arrested for something, just like
> other teenagers. But the difference will be that they will want to talk
> to us, be with us, rather than hide it from us.

My personal experience, right now, living with an unschooling teen, is that he talks to us Before he makes those decisions - or if no me and George, some other adult he trusts. That's veeeerrrrry different from most teens.

Does anyone know an unschooling teen who has been arrested? Died in a drunk driving accident? Committed suicide? Run away from home? Has an eating disorder? Is addicted to a drug? Its an honest question to some of the longer-time unschoolers - are there even rumors? I haven't heard any so far. There's something significant, there.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

earthmothergypsy

"Does anyone know an unschooling teen who has been arrested? Died in a drunk driving accident? Committed suicide? Run away from home? Has an eating disorder? Is addicted to a drug? Its an honest question to some of the longer-time unschoolers - are there even rumors? I haven't heard any so far. There's something significant, there."

I have only seen these things in homeschooling families (usually the really strict ones), but not in unschooling families. I've just not heard of it happening either. :) I think it really has to do with the relationship the kids have with their parents and a lot to do with the respect and trust that goes with unschooling. If that makes sense.



--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@> wrote:
> >> But then I have doubts. So, if the results are the same kind of people,
> > except the relationship with parents is different, possibly closer and
> > more open in the end, then... it would be easier to just put them
> > through school, right?
>
> There are a couple different issues tied up together, here, I think. One is the idea of "result" - if people have closer and more open relationship, that's a different "result" right there. That's worth something. If people are making choices that aren't based *as much* in baggage, that's something, too. If people are less stressed because there's a little more kindness in their world Right Now, that's a good thing.
>
> Beyond that, though, I think you're asking a question about human nature. Its something that a lot of parents wonder - can we do better? Can we make our kids "better" people? And what does that mean?
>
> Unschooling doesn't improve on human nature - that's the best we have. That's a statement that can seem reeeealllllly hopeless, or exactly the opposite, depending on how you read it, your state of mine, I mean, when you read it. It can be an expression of awe: Human nature is The Best, and we've Got that. When we help one another, as people value our needs and wants and wishes, and meet those, whenever we possibly can, human nature is a wonder. Its when we get bogged down in baggage that its crap.
>
> >>> Like, our teenagers will make mistakes, they might do something
> > illegal, or drink too much, or get arrested for something, just like
> > other teenagers. But the difference will be that they will want to talk
> > to us, be with us, rather than hide it from us.
>
> My personal experience, right now, living with an unschooling teen, is that he talks to us Before he makes those decisions - or if no me and George, some other adult he trusts. That's veeeerrrrry different from most teens.
>
> Does anyone know an unschooling teen who has been arrested? Died in a drunk driving accident? Committed suicide? Run away from home? Has an eating disorder? Is addicted to a drug? Its an honest question to some of the longer-time unschoolers - are there even rumors? I haven't heard any so far. There's something significant, there.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>

Lyla Wolfenstein

" Does anyone know an unschooling teen who has been arrested? Died in a drunk driving accident? Committed suicide? Run away from home? Has an eating disorder? Is addicted to a drug? Its an honest question to some of the longer-time unschoolers - are there even rumors? I haven't heard any so far. There's something significant, there."

*****************************

i think this is really hard to pin down because what constitutes "unschooling" anyway, in this attempt to measure....?

i know unschooling teens with quite a bit of angst, drug experimentation, eating disordered behavior, etc. but i don't know enough about their family's unschooling culture to know what their specific situation is. other things factor in too, like chemical mental illness, and many other things that unschooling can't "fix" but still is a really great idea to alleviate the pain.

lyla

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I don't think it's just about the relationships between parents and children.

It's about the child's sense of self, sense of competence in the world, ability to have honest, trusting less-role-defined relationships.

Even when, from the outside, we look like a conventional family -- take DD deciding to go to public high school this year -- I know and, more importantly, she knows it was her decision and all her options are open.

I think it's about them thinking about things instead of being told what to think. Making considered decisions. Making mistakes. Being imperfect but responsible for their own decisions.

Hope that's not more muddle. . . :)

Nance





--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>
> Or more, the deschooling that I think we are going through.
> Internalizing what I am learning about all of this.
>
> I have been observing, when around other families and children, that my
> children don't have 'melt-downs,' or refuse to share, or whatever 'bad'
> behaviour any more often than the conventionally parented children!
> Despite never being forced to share, or being put in time-outs, or any
> kind of discipline, my 3yo isn't any more mis-behaved than the average
> kid! And I feel like we are so close, and that our relationship is so
> good, and that she is not afraid to come to me with silly or difficult
> stuff, even at her young age. So, I guess I am just saying thanks for
> all of what I've been reading here, and elsewhere, which has helped me
> keep on with this path, and that it is so gratifying to see that our
> kids are pretty much the same, and to know that my relationship with her
> is so strong.
>
> I think I was under a sort of misconception that unschooling would help
> produce kids who never do anything wrong. I can't think specifically of
> examples. I guess food would be one. I kind of thought, well, you
> don't limit the food, so they gain a healthy perspective, listen to
> their bodies, etc... so then my conclusion was that unschooled kids
> couldn't ever be overweight, because that wouldn't be balance learned
> through listening to their bodies. But I'm wrong, right? My impression
> is quickly becoming that unschooled kids are probably pretty much the
> same, just the process is different. I'm having trouble expressing
> this. Like, our teenagers will make mistakes, they might do something
> illegal, or drink too much, or get arrested for something, just like
> other teenagers. But the difference will be that they will want to talk
> to us, be with us, rather than hide it from us.
>
> But then I have doubts. So, if the results are the same kind of people,
> except the relationship with parents is different, possibly closer and
> more open in the end, then... it would be easier to just put them
> through school, right? If all I cared about was the results. But I do
> care about the relationship more, though. I'm confused a bit, I think.
>
> Can anyone write some thoughts and maybe that will help me organize what
> I am thinking?
>

otherstar

>>>>I think I was under a sort of misconception that unschooling would help
produce kids who never do anything wrong.<<<<<<

I have several thoughts on this. Unschooling kids do all sorts of "bad" things. They are just like all of the other kids. The major difference is that unschooling parents typically have a positive view of human nature and kids. I think it is Alfie Kohn that says where we start makes a big difference. If we start at a place that assumes kids are bad and lazy and need someone to tell them what to do all the time, then that is going to look a lot different than someone that believes kids are basically good people that just need guidance and support along the way. Unschooling does not produce kids that don't do anything wrong. Unschooling produces kids that are capable of thinking about the world on their own terms using their own language. A lot of stuff that the "traditional" kids do is a result of trying to gain some kind of control over their own lives. They live in a reactionary state. Everything is a reaction rather than just an action. I want my kids to live an action filled life rather than a reaction filled life. (It makes sense in my head.)

>>>>>I kind of thought, well, you
don't limit the food, so they gain a healthy perspective, listen to
their bodies, etc... so then my conclusion was that unschooled kids
couldn't ever be overweight, because that wouldn't be balance learned
through listening to their bodies. But I'm wrong, right?<<<<<

Unschooling is not going to produce kids that aren't overweight. It is going to produce kids that set their own priorities rather than having all of them set for them. If an unschooling kid is overweight, they will be able to decide whether or not they want to go on a diet or change their eating habits. They won't have external forces trying to force them into conforming. Unschooling isn't going to eliminate any unbalance. It is going to enable kids to notice when they feel out of balance rather than relying on the rest of the world to tell them when they are out of balance. It is really difficult to make choices when external forces are drowning out your own intuition. Sometimes a little imbalance is good because that is when we learn the most. When I have been out of balance, it is easiest to get back in balance when I don't have other people trying to dictate what they think I should be doing. I want my kids to be able to drown out the unhelpful voices and find their own balance. In other words, I want them to have a finely tuned BS detector. Tuning your BS detector sometimes means that you have to wade through some of it and get a little dirty.

>>>>> our teenagers will make mistakes, they might do something
illegal, or drink too much, or get arrested for something, just like
other teenagers. But the difference will be that they will want to talk Z
to us, be with us, rather than hide it from us. <<<<<<

There is no guarantee. They may or may not want to talk to us about it. The difference is that if they don't want to talk about it, we won't take it personal. There is a good chance that they will know what they are doing is wrong or illegal but will have chosen to do so anyway. The reason that I have chosen unschooling is not to have teens that are easier or kids that don't do bad stuff. All kids will do something wrong at one time or another. My goal is to have children that are capable of thinking for themselves. I want them to be able to set their own agendas and be comfortable with it. I want to parent from a place of peace rather than from a place of fear. I don't want to pass all of my fears and weirdness and baggage on to my children. My parents did that to me and it doesn't feel good. It hinders me is more ways than I can count. My kids will face all sorts of challenges and craziness in this world. I want them to carry their own stuff. They don't need to carry mine too.

>>>>But then I have doubts. So, if the results are the same kind of people,
except the relationship with parents is different, possibly closer and
more open in the end, then... it would be easier to just put them
through school, right? If all I cared about was the results. But I do
care about the relationship more, though.<<<<<

It is so much more than just the relationship with the parents. It is their relationship with themselves. It is their relationship with the entire world. I don't want my kids to mirror my beliefs. I don't want my kids to go through life believing everything they see and hear. I want them to go through life questioning authority. I want them to go through life thinking and acting critically. I want my kids to do the right things for the right reasons. I don't want my kids to believe everything I tell them. I want them to question me even if it makes me uncomfortable. I don't expect all of my kids to be close to me. It may end up that we have personalities that clash and it may mean that we come to a place where we love, trust, and respect each other without being close. If that happens, I am okay with that. It may not be easy and it may force me to re-examine my own thoughts and my own beliefs. I want my children to develop into the people that they were destined to become on their terms.

Connie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

~*~Tracy Austin

I agree with Nance. My attraction to unschooling is to allow my children to delve into what pleases and attracts them *right now,* rather than being told what to do all day in school. My thoughts on outcome here are that w/unschooling they will retain their inherent curiosity/love of learning, and be able to think for themselves, rather than look to some outside authority when they have choice to make.

That said, my oldest (7) chose public school for 2nd grade this year. She has said it's boring and her favorite things are recess and lunch. Even in art (her *thing*) she can't create but has to follow what she's told to make. But because her relationship with her little brother is so stressful (he is very physical and wants her ]almost] constant attention, hitting and throwing things when he doesn't get it) that she wants to continue with it for now.

Tracy
----- Original Message -----
From: marbleface@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 2:52 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: To deepen my understanding of the unschooling we are doing



I don't think it's just about the relationships between parents and children.

It's about the child's sense of self, sense of competence in the world, ability to have honest, trusting less-role-defined relationships.

Even when, from the outside, we look like a conventional family -- take DD deciding to go to public high school this year -- I know and, more importantly, she knows it was her decision and all her options are open.

I think it's about them thinking about things instead of being told what to think. Making considered decisions. Making mistakes. Being imperfect but responsible for their own decisions.

Hope that's not more muddle. . . :)

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

But because her relationship with her little brother is so stressful
(he is very physical and wants her ]almost] constant attention, hitting
and throwing things when he doesn't get it) that she wants to continue
with it for now.>>>>

What could you do to help with this situation ?

We are there and I understand really I just hate to see someone who dosent seem to be enjoying school feel that school is better than home.
My 10 year old really wanted my 6 year old to stay in first grade this year(because as she put it she was up her but 24/7) and I really had to change this up to make it doable and enjoyable for both girls.

Nicole 





--- On Sat, 1/2/10, ~*~Tracy Austin <webinfusion@...> wrote:

From: ~*~Tracy Austin <webinfusion@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: To deepen my understanding of the unschooling we are doing
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 3:44 PM







 









I agree with Nance. My attraction to unschooling is to allow my children to delve into what pleases and attracts them *right now,* rather than being told what to do all day in school. My thoughts on outcome here are that w/unschooling they will retain their inherent curiosity/love of learning, and be able to think for themselves, rather than look to some outside authority when they have choice to make.



That said, my oldest (7) chose public school for 2nd grade this year. She has said it's boring and her favorite things are recess and lunch. Even in art (her *thing*) she can't create but has to follow what she's told to make. But because her relationship with her little brother is so stressful (he is very physical and wants her ]almost] constant attention, hitting and throwing things when he doesn't get it) that she wants to continue with it for now.



Tracy

----- Original Message -----

From: marbleface@bellsout h.net

To: unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 2:52 PM

Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: To deepen my understanding of the unschooling we are doing



I don't think it's just about the relationships between parents and children.



It's about the child's sense of self, sense of competence in the world, ability to have honest, trusting less-role-defined relationships.



Even when, from the outside, we look like a conventional family -- take DD deciding to go to public high school this year -- I know and, more importantly, she knows it was her decision and all her options are open.



I think it's about them thinking about things instead of being told what to think. Making considered decisions. Making mistakes. Being imperfect but responsible for their own decisions.



Hope that's not more muddle. . . :)



Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shira Rocklin

**My thoughts on outcome here are that w/unschooling they will retain
their inherent curiosity/love of learning, and be able to think for
themselves, rather than look to some outside authority when they have
choice to make.**

Ok, I like to question things. I'm not attacking anything. I just like
to feel out ideas, go in directions that are often dead ends, etc... but
think things through in various ways.

So, is there not some value, sometimes, to looking to outside authority
when we have a choice to make? When we 'research' about food choices
(since thats whats being talked about right now on this list), aren't we
looking to authority? Food scientists? Activists? Researchers?
Ancient people's diets? Those are authorities.

Is it not valuable for a person to feel the authority of the Law, when
they are considering whether to commit a crime?

Is there no value in the 'moral' authority of a person's religious
beliefs? If I person believed in a religion, would they not be thinking
for themselves?

Is all of this a spectrum? Like, sure, the regular public school system
probably beats the love of learning out of most kids. But then comes
alternative schools, Montessori, Waldorf... they make learning much
easier, more fluid, creative, etc... probably less children come out of
that having lost their love of learning. And then, Sudbury Schools,
Democratic schools, the Alpha School in Toronto, these are sorts of
unschooling schools, but the children might still 'have' to go,
according to their parents... but probably a whole lot of children come
out of that with a love of learning intact. And of course, there is the
various homeschooling methods. And there is the influence on all
children of time spent with family (whether it is authoritarian,
punitive, or consensual/peaceful) after school or all day long that also
has lots of influence.

In my mind, I think I've been painting the idea of sending my children
to school as an 'evil' 'bad mommy' kind of thing, and unschooling as the
polar opposite, the thing to do if I'm really going to be a 'great' mommy.

Oh my, it is hard to stop writing, or stop thinking, about all these
things. I guess I have to end somewhere.

otherstar

>>>>So, is there not some value, sometimes, to looking to outside authority
when we have a choice to make? <<<<

It's not that easy. I want my kids (and myself) to be comfortable going to an authority without taking what they say as the only truth. I want my kids to be able to know when to go to an authority and when to reject and question authority. There is value in looking to outside authority but you need to be able to know whether you want to listen to that authority or not. Let's face it, I can pretty much pick any idea and then go find an authority to back up that idea.

>>>Is it not valuable for a person to feel the authority of the Law, when
they are considering whether to commit a crime?<<<

Sure, it is good to know the law and give it consideration but you also need to be able to know whether or not there is something that you are willing to commit a crime for. I have seen activists and protesters break laws in order to further their agenda. I want my children to be able to judge individual circumstances rather than hypothetical situations. Committing a crime can include something as small as littering or something as big as murder. You can't paint those two things with the same brush.

>>>>Is there no value in the 'moral' authority of a person's religious
beliefs? If I person believed in a religion, would they not be thinking
for themselves? <<<<<

There is nothing wrong with following a religion. Unschooling does not rule out any set of beliefs. Ultimately, you decide to be a part of a religion or adhere to a certain belief system. From my perspective, if you are raising your children to a certain belief system, then you would also explain your beliefs to them and answer questions about other belief systems in an open and honest fashion. My husband is Catholic and was a Benedictine Monk when he was younger. He has his belief system and I have mine. If the kids want to go with him, they can. If they choose not to, that is fine too. If they ask questions about our differing belief systems, we answer them to the best of our ability. My husband doesn't expect me to be Catholic any more than I expect him to reject his Catholicism.

>>>>In my mind, I think I've been painting the idea of sending my children
to school as an 'evil' 'bad mommy' kind of thing, and unschooling as the
polar opposite, the thing to do if I'm really going to be a 'great' mommy. <<<<

The education method you choose does not make you a great mommy. I am sure there are a lot of really great moms that send their kids to public school and that there are a lot of unschooling moms that are not so great. I try not to set myself up as a great mommy because there are days that I completely suck at this parenting thing. I think the big difference is that unschoolers step down from their pedestals and walk along side their children and are willing to admit that they don't have all of the answers. Embracing unschooling was a very humbling experience for me because it meant that I let go of the notion that I always knew what was best for my children. It also meant that I had to let go of a lot of fears. One of those fears was about whether or not I was a good parent. I try to be the best parent that I can be at any given moment. That means that I am probably going to make a lot of mistakes. That is okay though because I have not set myself as the ultimate authority on anything.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], Shira Rocklin <shirarocklin@...> wrote:
>> So, is there not some value, sometimes, to looking to outside authority
> when we have a choice to make?

Part of what it means to be partners with children is to become an "authority" they can trust. That's part of the Why behind challenging all your automatic "nos" and figuring out which ones to modify or discard. When you say "no" too much, present too much fear as fact, you lose credibility and your authority is a matter of age and strength, not experience and perspective.

Does that make sense? Its possible to Choose to listen to authority, but part of that choice involves being able to critically asses that authority and see if there's anything worth listening to in the first place. The authority of an unschooling parent comes from being trustworthy from the perspective of the individual child.

>>When we 'research' about food choices
> (since thats whats being talked about right now on this list), aren't we
> looking to authority? Food scientists? Activists? Researchers?
> Ancient people's diets? Those are authorities.

How do you decide Which is the proper authority, though? Raw food or ayerveda? Macrobiotic or scientifically balanced nutrients? What adults do is find one that seems trustworthy, based on personal criteria, and try it out. If the results aren't great, though, most adults move on to something else, reassess those "trustworthy sources" from the point of view of their failure.

Your kids do the same with you. If your information doesn't line up with their experience, they're less inclined to trust other information. That's part of why your dd will eat things you say make her itchy - she's making sure she can trust your so-called facts.

Adults are full of so-called facts that seem ludicrous to children. The earth goes around the sun, what poppycock. Tadpoles turn into frogs? You're crazy mom. Corn grows on a plant? You're kidding me. Because Mo has seen tadpoles in stages of development in real life, she's come to accept I'm not so crazy about that one. Because she got to grow some corn of her own, she's willing to accept my facts. Maybe the earth really does go around the sun... she was right about the frogs and the corn.

> Is it not valuable for a person to feel the authority of the Law, when
> they are considering whether to commit a crime?

I honestly don't know a single person who has committed a crime and considered authority as more than a possible inconvenience, something to work around. That's not the kind of relationship I want with my kids - I don't want to be the "authority" they lie to, hide from, and twart. I'd rather be the one they can bounce ideas off and know that, while I'm not always right, I don't try to sell my fears as facts, my insecurities as The One True Way.

> Is there no value in the 'moral' authority of a person's religious
> beliefs? If I person believed in a religion, would they not be thinking
> for themselves?

A person who thinks for him or her self, in terms of religion, may well come to a different set of conclusions about what all that "moral authority" really means - and so we have dozens of different interpretations of all major religions, and subsets thereof. Some very strongly religious people put a high moral value on thinking for themselves! even when it flies in the face of "authorities" in their own denomination or sect.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)