ackerman_laura

So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.

This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.

So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.

She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.

Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????

I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!

Betty Porter

I don't have any advice because I'm going through it too. We have been homeschooling for 9 years, but only been unschooling for about 3 months. My son doesn't want to do anything but play video games. I'm getting nervous, because he is enrolled in an umbrella school & I have to keep a record on what he does every week. If I keep saying the same things all the time, won't they object? Please help!
Betty in KY

Mary Kay
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JJ

I don't understand Laura's characterization of a deschooling child's imagination as mindless and unproductive, unless she were perhaps brand-new to unschooling ideas and principles. Yet I see she's been subbed to this basics list almost four years . . .

--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.
>
> This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
>
> So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
>
> She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.
>
> Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????
>
> I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!
>

otherstar

>>>>>So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.<<<<<

A few weeks is not enough. Unschooling is a process and you do not always see immediate results.

>>>>>>So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.<<<<<

That is not uncommon. It sounds perfectly normal to me.

>>>>>She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.<<<<

Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement. You might want to check out some articles on deschooling. Deschooling can take lots of times (think months/years) depending on how long you were engaged in the traditional way of schooling. Everything that a kid does is somehow productive.

>>>>Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????<<<<<

Yes, it is normal and acceptable.

Connie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenna Robertson

:)
Sounds like your daughter is doing pretty much what my kids are doing, right down to watching Disney (we don't have cable, they watch Netflix instant play) and waiting for their schooling friends to be available.  My girls are 8,10 and 13.  We've been unschooling officially since school started the first week of September (it doesn't feel like anything different during the summer when no one is in school.) 
 
It was only last week that I realized all three of them were reading! :)  They love to read but had really barely read anything for a few months.  Gradually their interets are widening back out and I'm guessing our life will be much more rich and varied in another year or so.   
 
I'm sure the old timers on here can give you the long term perspective :), but I wanted to share that what you are experiencing is normal if only in that we are experiencing the transition to unschooling/deschooling the same way.
 
Breath :).  Relax those knuckles.  Trust that she's getting what she needs right now and enjoy the life you have together. 
 
:)
Jenna       


 
 
 
"If I had influence with the good fairy who is supposed to preside over the christening of all children, I would ask that her gift to each child in the world be a sense of wonder so indestructible that it would last throughout life."
               - Rachel Carson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DJ250

You're expecting "schooly" behavior and interests of her. She is deschooling, for sure!! Deschooling means she is decompressing from the expectations that school or a school-at-home approach laid on her. She is being given the room and time to figure out for HERSELF what her interests are. She will need YOU to be patient and support her. Have you discovered your own passions and interests and does she see you trying them out in front of her? Try doing the things you strewed about yourself, showing her they can be interesting things to do. This must be, however, without the expectation that she will automatically become interested in these things and want to do them immediately. She may actually still be intensely interested in her own "work" right now, which may be lots of tv, lots of figuring out what to do with her day. That is quite a challenge for someone who has had her day planned for her by other adults!

The other thing is that you must, must, must get the idea out of your head that some things are "productive" and "mindless" and others are not. EVERYTHING is a learning experience for humans. She is getting something out of everything she is doing, whether that is being bored for a bit, watching an entertaining show, reading a book, painting, etc.

Also, don't beat yourself up (or your daughter!) about being in the schooly mindset! It's hard to shift in your head at first but once you get there, you'll be pleased to offer you and your daughter the freedom of enjoying life and everything it has to offer. Take baby steps. And talk with her about this! Ask her how she's enjoying her show, if there's anything she needs or would like to explore. Meet other homeschoolers (even if not unschooling, though meeting other unschoolers can be quite affirming), go places, try foods you've never tried, go down different streets and see what's about, have fun!

Also, where do you live? We have a friendly unschooling group in our area (MD) and you may have others you can connect with.

Good sites to visit to answer your questions and calm your fears:

www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
www.sandradodd.com/unschooling

Best wishes,
~Melissa, in MD :)

----- Original Message -----
From: ackerman_laura
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:24 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] New unschooler here again....



So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.

This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.

So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.

She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.

Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????

I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!






------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2579 - Release Date: 12/21/09 02:36:00


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ackerman_laura

Thanks Jenna and Melissa....those were helpful and positive responses.

As far as the comment made by Connie...
"Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement." If you will re-read my post you will notice that I made an observation of my daughter activites, not a judement...you're the one that turned it into a judgement.

"J.J"....yes, I may have been a member for 4 years. I have "toyed" with the idea of unschooling for a few years now. Unfortunately, I find certain unschool groups to be unhelpful, defensive and snarky when I ask questions that are meant to help me more understand the concept of unschooling. Also, you must have alot of time on your hands to be researching members accounts for the fun of it. :-)

Laura






--- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@...> wrote:
>
> You're expecting "schooly" behavior and interests of her. She is deschooling, for sure!! Deschooling means she is decompressing from the expectations that school or a school-at-home approach laid on her. She is being given the room and time to figure out for HERSELF what her interests are. She will need YOU to be patient and support her. Have you discovered your own passions and interests and does she see you trying them out in front of her? Try doing the things you strewed about yourself, showing her they can be interesting things to do. This must be, however, without the expectation that she will automatically become interested in these things and want to do them immediately. She may actually still be intensely interested in her own "work" right now, which may be lots of tv, lots of figuring out what to do with her day. That is quite a challenge for someone who has had her day planned for her by other adults!
>
> The other thing is that you must, must, must get the idea out of your head that some things are "productive" and "mindless" and others are not. EVERYTHING is a learning experience for humans. She is getting something out of everything she is doing, whether that is being bored for a bit, watching an entertaining show, reading a book, painting, etc.
>
> Also, don't beat yourself up (or your daughter!) about being in the schooly mindset! It's hard to shift in your head at first but once you get there, you'll be pleased to offer you and your daughter the freedom of enjoying life and everything it has to offer. Take baby steps. And talk with her about this! Ask her how she's enjoying her show, if there's anything she needs or would like to explore. Meet other homeschoolers (even if not unschooling, though meeting other unschoolers can be quite affirming), go places, try foods you've never tried, go down different streets and see what's about, have fun!
>
> Also, where do you live? We have a friendly unschooling group in our area (MD) and you may have others you can connect with.
>
> Good sites to visit to answer your questions and calm your fears:
>
> www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
> www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
> Best wishes,
> ~Melissa, in MD :)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ackerman_laura
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:24 PM
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] New unschooler here again....
>
>
>
> So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.
>
> This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
>
> So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
>
> She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.
>
> Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????
>
> I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2579 - Release Date: 12/21/09 02:36:00
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.

A few weeks isn't very long. You and she are both still just beginning to deschool and will need some time for that. Think of your dd as needing time to decompress from the pressures of school, to heal a little and to rediscover what it means to self motivate, to enjoy learning for its own sake. That's going to take months at least.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit

>I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
*********************

Strewing can wait. The official unschooling experts' recommendation for deschooling is "live as if you were on vacation." This is an important part of the healing process for your dd and yourself. She needs time to change gears. YOU need time to learn about learning, because natural learning doesn't look like schoolish learning.

>> So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
*******************

Do you watch with her? Offer to play with her? You might need some practice (re)learning to play! Offer to do some fun things with her for the sake of fun itself - like, make fudge and eat it while watching a goofy movie marathon! That level of enjoyment can help the two of you reconnect, something that's important emotionally And in terms of you beginning to understand how she really learns and thinks, so that you can help her on her journey.

>>...talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently...

This is an important kind of play, btw. Its a powerful natural learning tool. Play with her! Or simply hang out with her and listen/watch as her interests unfold. Here are a few links you might find helpful on the subjects of learning and personality (personality has a Lot to do with how people learn):

http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/mi/dickinson_mi.html
http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp

>> She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around.
*****************

Excellent!
I'm serious! Some kids can come home and still feel pressured by past expectations to do things that look like school. Its great that she instinctively is staying away from those things for now. Depending on how she best learns, she may never get into things that "look" educational, but that doesn't mean she's not learning and won't have any skills. She's just going to have a chance to find out how she Really learns sooner. That's marvelous.

My always-unschooled 8yo does a few things that look very "academic". She likes to play with the microscope and calculator, does some math games and puzzles, she likes non-fiction, and even some textbooks. Those things are easy for me to point to when family and neighbors wonder what we do "for school". Most of her learning, though, looks like play: legos and video games and hours a day cutting things out of paper, mostly with the tv on. There's a loooooot going on in that paper cutting, but its would be easy to overlook that if I was expecting all her "learning" to look like her math games.

My 16yo doesn't do much that looks schoolish. As he's getting older, more of what he does looks "vocational" - woodworking, welding, that sort of thing, but for the most part he doesn't learn through books and classes. He learns by hanging out with guys with the skills and knowledge he wants to explore. So I "point" to the woodworking, but most of his learning looks like standing around a kitchen chit chatting, or sitting on a rock yacking, or leaning on a truck, bein' a guy.

> I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept.

What's the scariest part? For me, it was the idea that there was just me "to blame" I guess you could say. I had the power to screw it all up. But kids are Amazing! They really are. Watching my kids learn from everything around them, not just me but from tv and each other, from the cats and the sky and books and music and the neighbors and random people we'd meet in town, that did a lot to bring me down to earth. The only way I cas screw it All up is by being always in the way!

Hang out with your dd and learn to see her amazingness. Neither you nor she will ever regret that.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
> "Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement." If you will re-read my post you will notice that I made an observation of my daughter activites, not a judement...you're the one that turned it into a judgement.
*********************

I think the original comment was something about your dd's activities being unproductive, right? Conceptualizing a child's activities as productive or unproductive is the sort of thing that can block your ability to see learning happening. A lot of play looks very unproductive. Watching tv can look unproductive. And yet there's a Lot of learning going on.

A certain amount of judgement is a good thing - in the sense that judgement means "discernment" - but its also really important, while you're still wrapping your mind around unschooling, to question your own judgements. That lets you discover what you really think and want and value and helps you shift your thinking. Productive-vs-unproductive isn't a helpful judgment. Fun-vs-not fun, that's a Helpful judgement!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

JJ

I am not here to support your toying around with mindless and unproductive ideas while FOUR YEARS of a little girl's life goes by in school, with a mom playing games online and whining. Take baby steps is not good advice for getting to unschooling and obvuiously this list is no place to give you what you need to feel better about yourself instead of giving your daughter what SHE needs.

--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jenna and Melissa....those were helpful and positive responses.
>
> As far as the comment made by Connie...
> "Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement." If you will re-read my post you will notice that I made an observation of my daughter activites, not a judement...you're the one that turned it into a judgement.
>
> "J.J"....yes, I may have been a member for 4 years. I have "toyed" with the idea of unschooling for a few years now. Unfortunately, I find certain unschool groups to be unhelpful, defensive and snarky when I ask questions that are meant to help me more understand the concept of unschooling. Also, you must have alot of time on your hands to be researching members accounts for the fun of it. :-)
>
> Laura
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@> wrote:
> >
> > You're expecting "schooly" behavior and interests of her. She is deschooling, for sure!! Deschooling means she is decompressing from the expectations that school or a school-at-home approach laid on her. She is being given the room and time to figure out for HERSELF what her interests are. She will need YOU to be patient and support her. Have you discovered your own passions and interests and does she see you trying them out in front of her? Try doing the things you strewed about yourself, showing her they can be interesting things to do. This must be, however, without the expectation that she will automatically become interested in these things and want to do them immediately. She may actually still be intensely interested in her own "work" right now, which may be lots of tv, lots of figuring out what to do with her day. That is quite a challenge for someone who has had her day planned for her by other adults!
> >
> > The other thing is that you must, must, must get the idea out of your head that some things are "productive" and "mindless" and others are not. EVERYTHING is a learning experience for humans. She is getting something out of everything she is doing, whether that is being bored for a bit, watching an entertaining show, reading a book, painting, etc.
> >
> > Also, don't beat yourself up (or your daughter!) about being in the schooly mindset! It's hard to shift in your head at first but once you get there, you'll be pleased to offer you and your daughter the freedom of enjoying life and everything it has to offer. Take baby steps. And talk with her about this! Ask her how she's enjoying her show, if there's anything she needs or would like to explore. Meet other homeschoolers (even if not unschooling, though meeting other unschoolers can be quite affirming), go places, try foods you've never tried, go down different streets and see what's about, have fun!
> >
> > Also, where do you live? We have a friendly unschooling group in our area (MD) and you may have others you can connect with.
> >
> > Good sites to visit to answer your questions and calm your fears:
> >
> > www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
> > www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > ~Melissa, in MD :)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: ackerman_laura
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:24 PM
> > Subject: [unschoolingbasics] New unschooler here again....
> >
> >
> >
> > So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.
> >
> > This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
> >
> > So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
> >
> > She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.
> >
> > Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????
> >
> > I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2579 - Release Date: 12/21/09 02:36:00
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

otherstar

>>>>As far as the comment made by Connie...
"Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement." If you will re-read my post you will notice that I made an observation of my daughter activites, not a judement...you're the one that turned it into a judgement.<<<<<


Your original statement was: "She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school."

You have characterized/judged her activities as unproductive and mindless. An observation would be to state that she watches TV until her friends get home or to simply list the activities. When you added that those things were unproductive and mindless, you made a judgment. Any time you start adding adjectives, you start making judgments. I didn't say that it was good or bad. I simply made an observation about your observation. Part of unschooling is to see value in ALL of your child's activities without judging them as "mindless" or "unproductive". How would you feel if your child saw the time that you spend on the computer as mindless and unproductive? I realize that you feel that watching TV is mindless and unproductive but your daughter finds some value in that. It is okay to let your child do "mindless" and "unproductive" activities.

Connie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

memismommy

My 8yo son plays games many hours a day. He loves many varieties, and most of his learning comes through the filter of games or TV. He learns so much from figuring out the strategy of shooting games, working through a series of riddles with Carmen Sandiego, playing Pokemon or Spectrobes on his DS, and the list goes on and on. He can be very quiet about what's going on for hours as he focuses completely on the current challenge or episode of Family Guy, then stun us with what he knows, and how easily he connects it to other things, then carries it forward to new ideas all his own...

My 5yo daughter watched the same movie hundreds of times this summer. She learned a lot about biology, geography, geology, meteorology, and music. Then we got her some out-of-print books on Ebay with the same hero, where she learned an immense amount of sophisticated vocabulary, more geology, some bits of history and culture, mapreading, more music, art, and to read and write several words she found irresistible.

At one point, she choreographed a dance for the end credits, and made a chart to show her brother the steps. She spent an hour in intense activity of a very complex nature.

But these bursts of understanding and growth come after many hours of what looks just like stiing and staring at a screen, oblivious to the rest of the world...

Still waters DO run deep. White knuckles, though, tend to function as dams, holding back the natural flow. Defensiveness does, too.

Relaxing and reveling in this new freedom, and accepting your daughter just as she is, allow the learning to flow as it was intended.

Peace,
Shan

"THE UNFETTERED LIFE"
www.memismommy.blogspot.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 21, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Betty Porter wrote:

> My son doesn't want to do anything but play video games. I'm
> getting nervous, because he is enrolled in an umbrella school & I
> have to keep a record on what he does every week. If I keep saying
> the same things all the time, won't they object?

Have you played with him? Have you asked him what he enjoys most
about his games and how they're different?

Have you read:

http://sandradodd.com/videogames/

A video game isn't just a video game. It's strategy and mapping and
planning and a hundred other things.

As for the umbrella school, that's a local issue best handled by an
unschooling group in your state since the laws and what's needed to
comply are different from state to state. Your umbrella group may
have it's own rules and maybe some are better for unschooling than
others.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

This may not be as sunshine and positive as you want but. . .

Really? A few weeks? And you set a few books or whatever around the house and your DD didn't want to pick them up and now she's being unproductive and mindless?

Go back and re-read what unschooling is about. Give yourself a year and then see where you are. Deschool yourself! Give your DD options -- what would she like to be doing other than waiting for 3:00? Be enthusiastic about whatever it is -- going to the mall, hiking in the woods, going to the beach, taking a pottery class, adopting a dog, whatever -- including watching TV and waiting for her friends to be available . . . be up for her interests and stop thinking "educational" things really are the point of all of this after all.

Unschooling is not a game where we try to trick the kids into wanting to do the "educational" activities we planned for them. Unschooling is a way of life and can be joyous.

Nance


--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.
>
> This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
>
> So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
>
> She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.
>
> Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????
>
> I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!
>

[email protected]

Ask the school. I run a school in FL and it wouldn't matter to me but other school owners have other ideas and requirements.

Nance


--- In [email protected], Betty Porter <luvthesoap@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have any advice because I'm going through it too. We have been homeschooling for 9 years, but only been unschooling for about 3 months. My son doesn't want to do anything but play video games. I'm getting nervous, because he is enrolled in an umbrella school & I have to keep a record on what he does every week. If I keep saying the same things all the time, won't they object? Please help!
> Betty in KY
>
>

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>Take baby steps is not good advice for getting to unschooling

Its not good advice for getting anywhere quickly, but some people do come to unschooling via baby steps. I first heard about unschooling from a family that was giving it up as a failure - they'd done something closer to what I'd call "unparenting", but at the time all I knew was that "unschooling" was a disaster. Over the next few years I met a few starry-eyed mothers with infants who extolled the virtues of radical unschooling, and two other families who made unschooling look like a nightmare. So I was verrrrrry leary of unschooling. I took baby steps. Some of my baby steps involved learning to honor Ray's needs, and I'm glad I took them! They helped enormously, even if we were still a long way from radical unschooling at that point.

> I am not here to support your toying around with mindless and unproductive ideas while FOUR YEARS of a little girl's life goes by in school, with a mom playing games online and whining.
*************

Er...I think I missed something. If there's a personal issue, could it be taken off-list please? There's a difference between pointing out where someone's thinking is muddy and un-helpful (even doing so sharply!) and outright insulting and this sentence is insulting. That's not likely to help anyone clarify his or her thinking. Other replies have been made that were certainly sharp and to the point, and that's great.

After four years of thinking about it, someone's trying unschooling! That's fantastic.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:
> this sentence is insulting

Coming back to my own post to note that the original statement regarding "mindless and unproductive" behavior was a parent's about a child, and that's just as insulting, and I think that was, very likely JJ's point. Its a point well worth making!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

JJ

Meredith, you're right that the sentence was insulting, and I agree it's not likely to help change the poster's thinking. I admire this wonderful list and support all that you do to help new unschoolers, so I accept the rebuke and apologize to the list.

What follows explains (not excuses) how I was thinking about what I was saying and it is meant generally as well as specifically:

I do hope the original poster won't use my lapse of civility to nurse more years of petty grievance against unschoolers who take the principles she toys with very seriously. This is not personal, in that I don't know this poster or have any prior history that I know of with her anywhere. I know only she wrote in two posts and when she joined this list, which I checked before responding the first time, to consider where she was on the journey.

(I fully expected to see she was new to unschooling discussion, and my response would have been quite different!)

But four years of "toying" with unschooling yet still seeing her daughter's chosen interests and activities and imagination as mindless and unproductive? I was stunned and frustrated that the usual discussion was not helping. That's not even one baby step in four whole years of opportunities and still she only wants "positive" responses, not honest critique however hard to hear?

Meredith is right in another way, though, about it being personal. We all have strong feelings and sometimes they get the better of us. This poster got to me. I was appalled both by what was said and how it was said, and personally felt defensive of the daughter. I sounded the alarm I felt, doubting it would break through but willing to try, in large part because as I get older, I increasingly feel what Martin Luther King Jr called "the fierce urgency of now."

JJ




--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@> wrote:
> >Take baby steps is not good advice for getting to unschooling
>
> Its not good advice for getting anywhere quickly, but some people do come to unschooling via baby steps. I first heard about unschooling from a family that was giving it up as a failure - they'd done something closer to what I'd call "unparenting", but at the time all I knew was that "unschooling" was a disaster. Over the next few years I met a few starry-eyed mothers with infants who extolled the virtues of radical unschooling, and two other families who made unschooling look like a nightmare. So I was verrrrrry leary of unschooling. I took baby steps. Some of my baby steps involved learning to honor Ray's needs, and I'm glad I took them! They helped enormously, even if we were still a long way from radical unschooling at that point.
>
> > I am not here to support your toying around with mindless and unproductive ideas while FOUR YEARS of a little girl's life goes by in school, with a mom playing games online and whining.
> *************
>
> Er...I think I missed something. If there's a personal issue, could it be taken off-list please? There's a difference between pointing out where someone's thinking is muddy and un-helpful (even doing so sharply!) and outright insulting and this sentence is insulting. That's not likely to help anyone clarify his or her thinking. Other replies have been made that were certainly sharp and to the point, and that's great.
>
> After four years of thinking about it, someone's trying unschooling! That's fantastic.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)
>

JJ

Here's what I cut my own unschooling teeth on, starting with #1:
http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto

"Give your love generously and criticism sparingly. Be your children's partner. Support them and respect them. Never belittle them or their interests, no matter how superficial, unimportant, or even misguided their interests may seem to you. . ."

--- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
>
> . . .But four years of "toying" with unschooling yet still seeing her daughter's chosen interests and activities and imagination as mindless and unproductive? I was stunned and frustrated that the usual discussion was not helping. That's not even one baby step in four whole years of opportunities and still she only wants "positive" responses, not honest critique however hard to hear?
>
> Meredith is right in another way, though, about it being personal. We all have strong feelings and sometimes they get the better of us. This poster got to me. I was appalled both by what was said and how it was said, and personally felt defensive of the daughter. I sounded the alarm I felt, doubting it would break through but willing to try, in large part because as I get older, I increasingly feel what Martin Luther King Jr called "the fierce urgency of now."
>
> JJ
>
>
>
>

JJ

I just received an unsolicted and unwelcome private reply from the original poster, never happened to me before on this list. So I am posting it, where it belongs:


From ackerman_laura@...:
Don't worry, your fears nor your ego will scare me off of the list. I am pretty thick skinned. There are always a few bad apples in every group and I have learned how to overlook those apples and not be drawn into their drama or their perception of the world around them.

There is a lot left for me to learn about unschooling. Only recently have I took unschooling on seriously and I'm sure that the group as a whole will help me to answer most of my own questions.

Just wanted to let you know you can move on to your next victim because I'm still alive and kickin'. :D

By the way, it looks like you must spend much more time on the computer than I do. Looks like you have a made a few comments before I even read the first one....

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "JJ" <jrossedd@...> wrote:
>
> I just received an unsolicted and unwelcome private reply from the original poster, never happened to me before on this list. So I am posting it, where it belongs:
*******************

Another option (not better or worse) would have been to send it to me or one of the other moderators.

As a general point of courtesy, its really not okay to email people off-list without their permission. Its kind of like stalking! That being said, please feel free to email any of the moderators with issues or comments if you're concerned they may not be suitable for the list as a whole, or if you'd like something posted anonymously.

While I'm on the subject, sort of, also please be sensitive about "trimming" old posts away from replies. Its a major hassle for people on digest to have to wade through piles of old posts, and it makes hash of the archives.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

cncnawilloughby

. If I keep saying the same things all the time, won't they object?>>>

What exactly are you saying? It may help to seek out others help in educationalese when reporting to the state or umbrella school.

--- In [email protected], Betty Porter <luvthesoap@...> wrote:
>
> I don't have any advice because I'm going through it too. We have been homeschooling for 9 years, but only been unschooling for about 3 months. My son doesn't want to do anything but play video games. I'm getting nervous, because he is enrolled in an umbrella school & I have to keep a record on what he does every week. If I keep saying the same things all the time, won't they object? Please help!
> Betty in KY
>
> Mary Kay
> Want a FREE facial or make some extra $$ ?
> Now offering LAYAWAY! Contact me today!
> Betty J Porter- Ind. Beauty Consultant
> www.marykay.com/bporter1966
>

cncnawilloughby

I see that you are looking for positive and helpful responses. Why don't you do this for your child? Instead of seeing the games she is playing and tv shows as mindless and unproductive go searching yourself and find things she might be learning from them. Talk to her and see what she is enjoying about them. Find related games, and other things like maybe a book of "helps" for a particular game to make available.

Ask her things about a particular show she is watching.


--- In [email protected], "ackerman_laura" <ackerman_laura@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jenna and Melissa....those were helpful and positive responses.
>
> As far as the comment made by Connie...
> "Wow, there is a lot of judgment in that statement." If you will re-read my post you will notice that I made an observation of my daughter activites, not a judement...you're the one that turned it into a judgement.
>
> "J.J"....yes, I may have been a member for 4 years. I have "toyed" with the idea of unschooling for a few years now. Unfortunately, I find certain unschool groups to be unhelpful, defensive and snarky when I ask questions that are meant to help me more understand the concept of unschooling. Also, you must have alot of time on your hands to be researching members accounts for the fun of it. :-)
>
> Laura
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "DJ250" <dj250@> wrote:
> >
> > You're expecting "schooly" behavior and interests of her. She is deschooling, for sure!! Deschooling means she is decompressing from the expectations that school or a school-at-home approach laid on her. She is being given the room and time to figure out for HERSELF what her interests are. She will need YOU to be patient and support her. Have you discovered your own passions and interests and does she see you trying them out in front of her? Try doing the things you strewed about yourself, showing her they can be interesting things to do. This must be, however, without the expectation that she will automatically become interested in these things and want to do them immediately. She may actually still be intensely interested in her own "work" right now, which may be lots of tv, lots of figuring out what to do with her day. That is quite a challenge for someone who has had her day planned for her by other adults!
> >
> > The other thing is that you must, must, must get the idea out of your head that some things are "productive" and "mindless" and others are not. EVERYTHING is a learning experience for humans. She is getting something out of everything she is doing, whether that is being bored for a bit, watching an entertaining show, reading a book, painting, etc.
> >
> > Also, don't beat yourself up (or your daughter!) about being in the schooly mindset! It's hard to shift in your head at first but once you get there, you'll be pleased to offer you and your daughter the freedom of enjoying life and everything it has to offer. Take baby steps. And talk with her about this! Ask her how she's enjoying her show, if there's anything she needs or would like to explore. Meet other homeschoolers (even if not unschooling, though meeting other unschoolers can be quite affirming), go places, try foods you've never tried, go down different streets and see what's about, have fun!
> >
> > Also, where do you live? We have a friendly unschooling group in our area (MD) and you may have others you can connect with.
> >
> > Good sites to visit to answer your questions and calm your fears:
> >
> > www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
> > www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > ~Melissa, in MD :)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: ackerman_laura
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 10:24 PM
> > Subject: [unschoolingbasics] New unschooler here again....
> >
> >
> >
> > So, we have been trying this concept of unschooling for a few weeks now.
> >
> > This has been my conclusion....I have strewed and tried to focus on her interests just as the unschooling experts recommend.
> >
> > So far since ditching the traditional way of schooling, she has been passing her days by watching T.V. (The Suite Life) and talking to herself in pretend scenarios waiting patiently to play with her neighborhood public schooled friends until they arrive home from school.
> >
> > She has shown absolutely no interest in the books or other "educational" things I have strewed around. She seems totally satisfied with occupying herself with unproductive and mindless things until her friends get home from public school.
> >
> > Is this normal and acceptable for an unschooling family?????????
> >
> > I am so "white knuckling" this whole unschooling concept. Please respond with supportive and positive insight!!!!!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 9.0.717 / Virus Database: 270.14.116/2579 - Release Date: 12/21/09 02:36:00
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

gruvystarchild

~~Also, you must have alot
of time on your hands to be researching members accounts for the fun of it. :-)~~

The date of when you join the list is public knowledge, anyone can access it without "research".

Also, Meredith already addressed the issue of emailing people off list but I want to make it very clear that doing so can get you banned. Unless a person invites you to email them or it is for a mutually agreeable conversation, do NOT email members off list without first asking them if it's ok.

That kind of thing does not sit well with me. We can have discussions all day and disagreements about the ideas presented, but let's not make it something personal.

Thank you,

Ren
listowner