Barbara

Hello everyone...I am having some confusing/conflicting thoughts about myself as a homeschooler of my 2 sons..ages 8 and 5. I'm not in any way judging anyone, I would just like advice and am simply trying to be the best parent I can. Ok, here goes..

As a homeschooler, for the past 3 years I have been very strict...by the book kinda mom, which has caused a lot of frustration, and sometimes anger during our days and studies. Well, this year I have relaxed A LOT, to the point where now I feel as if I'm not doing enough and the guilt of that sucks almost as much as the frustration from before!! My oldest son is in the 3rd grade, and we do his math from a book, language, history, and science to an extent. My 5 yr old, who's doing kindergarten, is working on math from a book, science, phonics, etc. (we have gotten rid of the handwriting and spelling books because they were causing waaaayyy too much drama:)

Ok, here's my problem...I love the idea of unschooling, which I think we kinda do because we watch the history channel and other shows that are educational sometimes and talk about them, my 8 yr old loves learning things about stars and planets so sometimes we look them up on the computer, they play computer games, we go places, and things like that...as well as sometimes playing board games with both the kids too, BUT I don't see how anyone could completely unschool. I mean, how will the kids learn math? You know, adding, subtracting, multiplication?? What about language? How will they know what to capitalize or the correct punctuation? I'm teaching my 5 yr old to read by doing a phonics book..how would he learn on his own?? How would he know his vowels and the different sounds? I can kinda see unschooling science because you can learn so much of it from different places (farms, science centers, movies, etc) But what about history, math, reading, and language?

I also really don't limit my children's time on the tv or internet, but I do require them to help out sometimes around the house, and clean up their rooms. Is that wrong?

Could someone help me here? How can I find a balance? And what about the basic subjects..I mean, I don't want my kids to grow up and not know math, or how to write book reports, or even how to use the correct punctuation at the end of a sentence!! What if they want to go to college? I want them to have a great education, but I also want them to enjoy life and learning too!!!!

I apologize for the length of this, really I do, but I'm desperate for help. Please do not reply if you are simply going to judge me personally or anything like that, I'm looking for some real advice here..because I love my boys with all my heart and want wants best for them.

Sincerely Thanking You all,
Barbara Colwell

barbaracolwell@... if you'd like to respond privately

plaidpanties666

Hi, Barbara, I'm Meredith, mom to Mo who is 8 and unschooled from the start, totally radically unschooled, and Ray, who is 16 and has been through school at home and public school before radical unschooling. I'm going to answer from my own experience, but first let me throw out some links with lots of basic information for you, in case you haven't found them yet:

http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Okay, now to answer a few of your question...

<barbaracolwell@...> wrote:
> I don't see how anyone could completely unschool.

With great pleasure. Really, its a wonderful, magical way to live. Its much less stressful than homeschooling. You get to like your kids more and vice versa.

>> I mean, how will the kids learn math? You know, adding, subtracting, multiplication??

My 16yo has better math skills now than ever before because all the math he "does" is math he's using in his work and projects. Its not all mindless gibbrish to him anymore, its a valuable tool, one he wants to master.

My 8yo adds, subtracts, multiplies, divides, uses fractions and percentages and geometry. What she does often doesn't look like text book math, and I'd be at an utter loss to tell you her "grade level" but she has all those basic concepts in her head. How? Numbers, quantities, patterns, shapes and relationships surround us. We live in a sea of mathematics all day long and don't usually realize it bc we've been taught to think math comes from a book. It doesn't. People invent math the way they invent language. Its a way of describing the world and communicating about it. Untaught, kids learn math soooooo much more easily its astonishing. Its something our brains do very very naturally, like learning language.

>>What about language? How will they know what to capitalize or the correct punctuation?

By reading and writing. My 8yo still uses a lot of invented spelling, and some invented punctuation, but she knows its invented, and is working on learning the standard ways of doing those things. She's interested in them. To a child who has never been taught grammer and punctuation, those are fascinating! Sometimes, writing one of her stories she'll stop and ask "how do you spell this?" or ask "how do you show shouting?" She already knows how to use quotation marks, since she writes a lot of dialog.

>> I'm teaching my 5 yr old to read by doing a phonics book..how would he learn on his own?? How would he know his vowels and the different sounds?
******************

My 8yo, who reads as well as she understands speech, doesn't know what a vowel is yet. She's starting to figure them out through her writing, wrapping her mind around the concept. She doesn't like to be "told" things and forgets quickly when I tell her things she's not interested in, but one day I'm sure we'll have a conversation about vowels and she'll remember it. But she didn't need that information to learn to read, and doesn't need it to learn to write and spell.

Many people struggle with phonics. My 16yo found them impossible. By the time he'd sounded out a word he'd forgotten the word. He could sound out an entire sentence without knowing what it said. Once he could read he found phonics useful for decoding, but he had to have enough words stored in his memory before the phonetic information was useful to him. One of my friends has a dd who could read whole sentences without being able to recognize all the words in them, or name all the letters - she needed "chunks" of meaning as it were. "Put" had no meaning. "Put the cup on the table" had meaning.

>> I can kinda see unschooling science because you can learn so much of it from different places (farms, science centers, movies, etc) But what about history
*************************

What do you know about the history of rock-n-roll? The history or heavy metal? Did you know those histories start on different continents? Its true. Why should you care? I dunno. My 16you finds that interesting bc he's learning to play bass and drums. Hidden in those histories are imperialism and slavery, the movement of goods and services and ideas across the face of the globe, war and pacifism, the differences between patriotism and nationalism, globalization and the celebration of ethnic heritages. Did you know all those things were wrapped up in a couple musical instruments? Its true. That's how unschoolers learn about history. It projects itself into the present, everywhere we look.

> I also really don't limit my children's time on the tv or internet, but I do require them to help out sometimes around the house, and clean up their rooms. Is that wrong?
************************

Its standard parenting wisdom that kids should be made to help out to teach them about responsibility. Unschoolers find that our kids become responsible without being taught, without being made to help out. My 8yo doesn't do much housekeeping, but will sometimes help if I ask (and sometimes say no). She'll sometimes volunteer to help. My 16yo cooks and cleans regularly. Before we unschooled it was excruciating to get him to "help" but after a couple years of deschooling he Wanted to. Why? Because he likes us and wants to help out. There are fringe benefits to this idea that you and your kids can like each other more - people who like each other do nice things for each other.

Younger kids tend to find cleaning overwhelming. Its beyond their scope. They don't necessarily get better by being made to do it over and over bc a lot of what's going on is developmental. That's true of a lot of things with kids. As they grow, they become more able to handle complexity Without being taught. Standard parenting wisdom won't tell you that, it will say "kids Need to learn xyz" - but many many many times xyz is developmental. Kids Will learn it, just not when its convenient to parents. Its not the job of kids to be convenient to parents.

>>I'm looking for some real advice here..because I love my boys with all my heart and want wants best for them.
******************

Of course you do! Imagine if you could have what's best for them with less fighting, less pushing, less "nos" and "don't" and with more smiles and friendliness. That's radical unschooling. You don't Have to keep fighting and pushing and making them, you can be their friend and ally, their consultant and facilitator. I won't say there are no issues and bad days, because we're all human! But you get to have an even better relationship with your kids - and they really do learn what they need to know in the process.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

AnnoraG

I think you are off to a great start by getting rid of the things that caused too much drama. Kudos to you. Oddly enough, I just had a conversation with a friend of mine about having the utmost confidence with strictly sticking to organic learning in most areas BUT, I have this desire to push language arts because I want my kids to be able to engage in "the great conversation." I want them to be able to read and write! My 7 year old does not read, my 9 year old is on a ninth grade reading level (I know this because he was in public school until the beginning of this year)and he has a novel that he works on from time to time, but he hates grammar. I am also concerned about math. I have this fear that their interest in other areas will be stunted if they encounter math that they find overwhelming because they haven't had the basics. My friend's response was that because of my children's personalities and the environment they live in, she can't imagine them not coming into these things on their own. I did order the Singapore math books and I am still deliberating about what to do in the English department, but I honestly think in the end as I allow my children to disassociate these things with "school work" they will pursue them of their own accord. I would also like to ease your concerns about college. I am a high school drop out. I was able to get into an honors college based on my ACT scores, a paper I wrote and an interview. I did this with a tenth grade education. When we wrote our first papers during my first semester, I would not allow any of my peers to read my paper. I was embarrassed because I had never been taught to write. They all assured me that no one learns to write a paper until they go to college. And believe it or not, I scored much higher on that paper than most of my class mates. When I switched to a regular university, I was required to take a remedial math class that I did not receive credit for before I went on to take my other maths, but while I was attending the honors college, there was no need because we took what was called pure math. I am feeling a little bit of that guilt that you're talking about too, but at least once a week something reminds me of how lucky we are that I made the decisions I did. My nine year old who at this time last year was on ADHD medication so that he could sit still and be quiet is about to leave his Louisiana home to go to New Mexico to do volunteer work. I hope this sets the bar for our unschooling adventures, and I believe that if it does, I will naturally ease up! Good luck. And always remember that you and your kids are living life and learning TOGETHER!
--- In [email protected], "Barbara" <barbaracolwell@...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone...I am having some confusing/conflicting thoughts about myself as a homeschooler of my 2 sons..ages 8 and 5. I'm not in any way judging anyone, I would just like advice and am simply trying to be the best parent I can. Ok, here goes..
>
> As a homeschooler, for the past 3 years I have been very strict...by the book kinda mom, which has caused a lot of frustration, and sometimes anger during our days and studies. Well, this year I have relaxed A LOT, to the point where now I feel as if I'm not doing enough and the guilt of that sucks almost as much as the frustration from before!! My oldest son is in the 3rd grade, and we do his math from a book, language, history, and science to an extent. My 5 yr old, who's doing kindergarten, is working on math from a book, science, phonics, etc. (we have gotten rid of the handwriting and spelling books because they were causing waaaayyy too much drama:)
>
> Ok, here's my problem...I love the idea of unschooling, which I think we kinda do because we watch the history channel and other shows that are educational sometimes and talk about them, my 8 yr old loves learning things about stars and planets so sometimes we look them up on the computer, they play computer games, we go places, and things like that...as well as sometimes playing board games with both the kids too, BUT I don't see how anyone could completely unschool. I mean, how will the kids learn math? You know, adding, subtracting, multiplication?? What about language? How will they know what to capitalize or the correct punctuation? I'm teaching my 5 yr old to read by doing a phonics book..how would he learn on his own?? How would he know his vowels and the different sounds? I can kinda see unschooling science because you can learn so much of it from different places (farms, science centers, movies, etc) But what about history, math, reading, and language?
>
> I also really don't limit my children's time on the tv or internet, but I do require them to help out sometimes around the house, and clean up their rooms. Is that wrong?
>
> Could someone help me here? How can I find a balance? And what about the basic subjects..I mean, I don't want my kids to grow up and not know math, or how to write book reports, or even how to use the correct punctuation at the end of a sentence!! What if they want to go to college? I want them to have a great education, but I also want them to enjoy life and learning too!!!!
>
> I apologize for the length of this, really I do, but I'm desperate for help. Please do not reply if you are simply going to judge me personally or anything like that, I'm looking for some real advice here..because I love my boys with all my heart and want wants best for them.
>
> Sincerely Thanking You all,
> Barbara Colwell
>
> barbaracolwell@... if you'd like to respond privately
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 6, 2009, at 8:43 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:

> My 16yo has better math skills now than ever before because all the
> math he "does" is math he's using in his work and projects. Its not
> all mindless gibbrish to him anymore, its a valuable tool, one he
> wants to master.

To add to Meredith's great post, I think when nonunschoolers read
about what unschoolers do it sounds like we're trying to impose some
airy fairy theory on kids, denying them the hard but good-for-them
medicine of disciplined learning and replacing it with something
gentle and nice, but that, from the outside, looks totally
ineffective. Unschooling seems to be a way of avoiding being mean to
the kids but will ultimately leave them unlearned.

But the truth is that what kids learn in school is *made* hard to
learn. Not because educators are mean ;-) but because they need to
demonstrate that specific learning is taking place. In order to prove
learning, they are limited in the methods that yield something
testable. Unfortunately the natural way we -- and all animals --
learn is scatter shot. We pick up bits and pieces here and there as
we need them. We naturally learn to grow our understanding. It's very
very hard to test for understanding (especially since we don't
approach understanding linearly). (And very very hard to grade!)
That's why most tests test for what's been memorized.

Learning is sort of like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. We naturally
work on the areas that interest us that expand and grow to meet up
with other areas of interest. And we jump around. At first the puzzle
often just looks like bigger pieces of chaos. ;-)

In school, the kids are told what they're going to make and told to
find the corner piece and place it in the corner. Then the next piece
that attaches to it. Then the next piece that attaches to it.

If the two puzzles were tested against school standards: how many of
the upper left is done, the schooled puzzle worker might have a
several dozen pieces in the corner. The natural puzzle worker might
have two. But what would be missed by a standardized test is all the
*other* pieces the natural puzzle worker had assembled. And, while
the schooled puzzle assembler might test well, they aren't learning
ways to tackle a jigsaw puzzle. They *look* like they're
accomplishing something, but what they're learning is that doing
puzzles is hard and boring and pointless and left on their own it's
unlikely they'll finish it. The natural puzzle worker doesn't look
like they're accomplishing anything (judging by their progress in the
corner since that's *all* a standardized test can test) but they're
having fun and the real accomplishment is happening far from the
testing area. And if they enjoy it, they're likely to do many puzzles
in their life.

School is to natural learning as Spanish class is to picking up
language as a child. One is hard and pretty much ineffective after
class is done. The other is effortless and effective. The second is
so effortless that we don't even take it seriously. We just know it's
something mysterious that happens and has no relationship to anything
else.

But it does! That's how we are designed to learn! It's messy. Chaotic
natural learning is very frustrating for someone who wants feedback
that specific learning is taking place. If there had been a
standardized test of language acquisition in 18 month olds, a typical
question would be pronouncing their name. My daughter would have
failed. A standardized test would *not* have asked how many dinosaur
names she knew ;-) (She had a shirt with 9 dinosaurs on it which she
could rattle off. She could say pachycephalosaurus before she could
say Kathryn ;-)

I'm betting that unless you're a history buff, that you've forgotten
way more history than you remember! The political doings of dead
white guys is really dull for most people. What most people find
interesting is bits of history of whatever interests them, social
history, how people lived in the past (movies and books are good for
that). As the build up that jigsaw puzzle, it eventually connects to
bits and pieces of political history.

My daughter probably knows more about early 1900s America than I do
because she's been fascinated by early baseball and has read several
books about it. One of her favorite guitarists was dressed as a
gangster in a video and that sparked an interest in gangsters. We're
reading a book about gangsters in film and it's starting way back
with the beginning of real gangsters and prohibition and the politics
surrounding it.

Is that the same as slogging through a history course? Absolutely
not. In some ways it's inferior since it doesn't cover the
"important" stuff. But how much of the "important" stuff do most
people remember? In many ways it's superior. My daughter really knows
the information she's read about early baseball. She hasn't just
memorized it. She knows the whys and wherefores. She knows some of
the social and political history that influenced what happened.
That's a foundation she'll build on throughout life.

The thing is educators get to say "We did our job. We put the
information in there. Not our fault if they don't remember it 10
years later." But *shouldn't* part of their job to be to make those
12 years time well spent? The "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader"
is pretty telling. But it doesn't tell what it supposedly does: that
5th graders are smarter than adults. It says that great huge chunks
of that stuff you put up with learning for 12 years is going to be
gone by the time you're an adult.

Yet how many adults can still recite the theme song to Gilligan's
Island? ;-) Some think it means we're naturally drawn to trivial
entertainment and must be made to learn the hard stuff. No, what it
really means is that if it's fun and *personally meaningful* we'll
remember.

> I mean, how will the kids learn math? You know, adding,
> subtracting, multiplication?? What about language? How will they
> know what to capitalize or the correct punctuation?
>

I know, it's hard to imagine. But they do. We are natural puzzle
solvers. We want to understand how things work. We want to master
what we enjoy. We don't necessarily want to know how things work on
someone else's schedule, though!

Just because an unschooled kid might not be using standard
punctuation and capitalization when schooled kids are doesn't mean
they don't care. It means it's not important to them. Yet. Mostly
kids are writing for themselves. *At that age* they don't need to
communicate to someone else so all that's important to them is
getting the thoughts down onto paper or screen. (It might be a story.
It might be a label.) Translating thoughts to words is important part
of writing. (And the part that's hard to test! Testing grammar and
punctuation is easy and why its made more important in school than it
really is.) Later, when they're communicating with others (and trying
to read others' communications) on message boards and email and so
on, they'll feel the difference between standard grammar and
creative. Reading a novel in chat speak might be interesting once but
it would be pretty obvious how limiting it is for meatier
communication! ;-) (But writing out thoughts formally on a text
screen is equally limiting! Each has their uses.)

It's really really really hard to imagine how kids can learn math
merely by using it. As an engineer I was certain you couldn't learn
math without hours and hours of practice. I was wrong. I didn't learn
math so much as practice applying formulas. I didn't really
understand what lay beneath the formulas because it was obscured by
the tedium of getting the precise answer to the 3rd decimal point. My
daughter, though, understands *how* numbers work. She understands
their fluid nature and how they're manipulated. The notation just
formalizes what she intuitively understands.

I've written a fair amount about math and reading and grammar (and
lots on chores!) at:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/

Also two articles that might help you understand why school makes so
much sense and why it's so hard to grasp why unschooling is better are:

Products of Education
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/products

Why You Can't Let Go
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/talk

Joyce

Beth Williams

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Barbara <barbaracolwell@...>wrote:

>
>
> Hello everyone...I am having some confusing/conflicting thoughts about
> myself as a homeschooler of my 2 sons..ages 8 and 5. I'm not in any way
> judging anyone, I would just like advice and am simply trying to be the best
> parent I can. Ok, here goes..
>
>






HI, I'm Beth. I also have an 8 year old and a 5 year old (girls). I've
been on this list for a bit but haven't posted (enjoying reading and taking
it all in). We've always "unschooled", but I've never been sure if I was
doing it "right". I get confused and conflicted too.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that it's been really challenging to let go of
some ideas society has about when the "right" time a child should learn A,B
or C. My kids have many friends in school and once my 8 year old had
friends that were pushed to read in school and spell, etc. they started to
tell her things like "why don't you go to school so you'll learn this?"
(when she asks them how to spell something). But at the same time she does
not liked to be pushed. When I've gotten a bit worried and frustrated w/
her not knowing how to read something and she'd ask how to spell something
or what something says, I would say things like, "what do you think it
starts with? let's sound it out..." She just never got phonics. And
sometimes would let me tell her about it but generally would grump, "JUST
TELL ME!". (my cue to shut up and stop pushing something she did not want
to do and was not helpful to her!)

It became plain to me about a year ago that she is a visual reader when we
were in a public bathroom and she read on the TP holder "turn clockwise to
refill". I was like --WHAT?! how does she know that's what that says? So
I asked and she said she knew the word clock and figured out the rest.
Recently she read the word "requirements" in a book -yet, has trouble w/
words like "where" and "there". "then" and "when", "has" and "was". These
are more common words and look alike. The HUGE unusual words are easy for
her!

I asked on a local yahoogroup I'm on about that. An unschooling friend w/
teens said these kids (visual learners) learn early that phonics has too
many exceptions to the rules and they can't be bothered. Mostly we read
that way anyway (most of the words we know are from repetition and are in
our memory bank...we sight read them), and in school they have lists of
"sight words" they give the kids (that don't fit in the "rules").

My 8 y.o. was trying to teach my 5 y.o. to "sound out" the word "dog" in the
car the other day and I realized how many sounds the letter "o" can have!?
Not only long as in "mow" and short as in "apple" but what the heck is
"dog"? it's like an "aw" or "au" sound! How confusing! Do we really need
to juggle all those rules, that are often broken anyway, in our little minds
as kids? She's learning SLOWLY how to read. It's been a LONG process. But
this summer she got so excited about it and has taken off with it. Asks for
books that interest her, reads them in the car and when she can't figure out
a word, she spells it to me and I tell her what it is. She has an interest
and desire, so she's making it happen. It's exciting to see the process!

Also...they've been into Madlibs for awhile. Who doesn't love that
silliness (and chance to use "poop" in a story over and over!?) ---those
things are basically a grammar lesson. BTW, my 5 y.o. and I did one in a
kids Nat. Geographic mag my dad sent to them and one of the blanks was for
"body part"....she said, "esophagus". Where she got that, I have no
idea....but I bet if I asked, the answer would be --from some TV show.

They're always asking me what words mean too. When I'm at a loss for a good
definition (or want to make sure I've given an accurate definition) I've
been going to an online dictionary to read them what it says...from that
they're learning that dictionaries are out there if they need help with a
word.

Just thought I'd throw some ideas out about how we manage w/o a curriculum
and how kids learn when they're ready and because it's something that
interests them. Pushing is not necessary, what we need we learn along the
way, but I know letting go of the "what if-ing" can be difficult. I think
that's a process too (for the parents) and like learning to read, can't be
expected to happen overnight.

Good luck.
Beth Williams


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 6, 2009, at 11:07 PM, AnnoraG wrote:

> I have this desire to push language arts because I want my kids to
> be able to engage in "the great conversation." I want them to be
> able to read and write!

What if your husband wanted you to be a great pianist but you loved
knitting?

What if your husband wanted you to be a great chef but you loved
reading?

Love them and respect them for who they are rather than the ideals
you wish they were.

> My 7 year old does not read
>

*Most* 7 yos can't read. Some can go through the motions of what's
dubbed reading in school. Some do learn early. But most are not doing
what an adult would call reading: being able to pick up some printed
matter that the want to read and read for enjoyment or information.

> my 9 year old is on a ninth grade reading level
>

Which does not mean he reads as well as a ninth grader. What that
means is he could read the material given to him as well as a ninth
grader. Not the same at all!

> and he has a novel that he works on from time to time, but he hates
> grammar.
>

And if he had perfect grammar and no novel, would that be better.

What he's accomplished is hugely creative. Grammar is mechanics. In
fact they have copy writers who can put in punctuation. The copy
writers can create novels out of strings of grammatically correct but
dull sentences.

> I did order the Singapore math books
>

Curriculum is good at getting kids to jump through hoops and perform
for tests. It can't guarantee understanding.

I think the number one all time best math "curriculum" is video
games! It involves far more and deeper mathematical thinking than is
found in 12 years of public school.

> I am still deliberating about what to do in the English department
>

Leave the English departments in the colleges for the professors! ;-)

Watch movies they love. Talk about them. Read books together. Listen
to books on tape. Take dictation of their stories.

In real life English doesn't stop with literature. It's connected to
everything. Don't put it in a box. That's when it gets dull!

> they will pursue them of their own accord.
>

But it's unlikely that it will look like anything they would do in
school. Much of my daughter's writing before 14 was comics and
catalogs of Slugbug products she made up. She still does comics but
she's also moved onto novels. I didn't do anything that looked like
English but I did make word processing available to her any time she
wanted it, lots and lots of paper and writing tools. *That* was her
English.

> I hope this sets the bar for our unschooling adventures, and I
> believe that if it does, I will naturally ease up!
>

Best not to have a bar you expect him to reach. It will strain your
relationship. It's not up to him to prove he's learning. It's up to
you to find ways to see the learning in what he does.

Joyce

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 7, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> The copy
> writers can create novels out of strings of grammatically correct but
> dull sentences.

Oops, sorry.

The copywriters *can't* create ...

Kind of an important word missing!

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AnnoraG

In response to Joyce's words:

>What if your husband wanted you to be a great pianist but you loved
> knitting?
>
> What if your husband wanted you to be a great chef but you loved
> reading?
>
> Love them and respect them for who they are rather than the ideals
> you wish they were.

The entire point of my response was to let the original poster know that I have some hang ups too, she seemed to feel like people would judge her because of her anxieties. I see that she may have been right. I wrote nothing to infer that I did not love and respect my children for who they are, nor did I write about what I "wish they were." I was writing about not wanting them to miss out. I also thought that I had made it pretty clear that this is something I see myself getting over.

On the subject of my children not reading/reading levels: I KNOW my daughter shouldn't necessarily be reading and I am not pushing her to read. One of my other comments you took a quip at mentioned that I have yet to take any action.

>And if he had perfect grammar and no novel, would that be better.
>
> What he's accomplished is hugely creative. Grammar is mechanics. In
> fact they have copy writers who can put in punctuation. The copy
> writers can create novels out of strings of grammatically correct but
> dull sentences.

I was in no way implying that what my child is doing is not good enough for me. I was making the point that his interests do lie in the same realm as mine, though he is not interested in "studying" the mechanics.

>Curriculum is good at getting kids to jump through hoops and perform
> for tests. It can't guarantee understanding.
>
> I think the number one all time best math "curriculum" is video
> games! It involves far more and deeper mathematical thinking than is
> found in 12 years of public school.

FYI: my daughter loves math workbooks. And with an attentive parent by their sides, my children are not very likely to move through if they can't understand something. Furthermore, they do not have the personalities that would allow them to be satisfied with right answers and no concrete understanding.

> Watch movies they love. Talk about them. Read books together. Listen
> to books on tape. Take dictation of their stories.

We do all of the things besides books on tape. Why would you assume that we don't?

> In real life English doesn't stop with literature. It's connected to
> everything. Don't put it in a box. That's when it gets dull!

Ummm...speech, okay. What else?

>But it's unlikely that it will look like anything they would do in
> school. Much of my daughter's writing before 14 was comics and
> catalogs of Slugbug products she made up. She still does comics but
> she's also moved onto novels. I didn't do anything that looked like
> English but I did make word processing available to her any time she
> wanted it, lots and lots of paper and writing tools. *That* was her
> English.

My 7 year old has a comic book character named Cat Dak. I don't think she would be doing "better" by recognizing sight words. But, your English sounds like the same old communication I associate English with.

>Best not to have a bar you expect him to reach. It will strain your
> relationship. It's not up to him to prove he's learning. It's up to
> you to find ways to see the learning in what he does.

What I wrote applied to my entire family and I was talking about us being able to live our lives doing what is important to us without the confines of schooling etc. I do not appreciate the assumptions you have made about my feelings toward my children. All of my anxieties have to do with my desire for them to be able to experience life as fully as possible. And I see those anxieties for what they are, my own personal hang-ups that I feel will fade with time spent watching my children living lives that they love.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2009, at 11:07 PM, AnnoraG wrote:
>
> > I have this desire to push language arts because I want my kids to
> > be able to engage in "the great conversation." I want them to be
> > able to read and write!
>
>
>
> > My 7 year old does not read
> >
>
> *Most* 7 yos can't read. Some can go through the motions of what's
> dubbed reading in school. Some do learn early. But most are not doing
> what an adult would call reading: being able to pick up some printed
> matter that the want to read and read for enjoyment or information.
>
> > my 9 year old is on a ninth grade reading level
> >
>
> Which does not mean he reads as well as a ninth grader. What that
> means is he could read the material given to him as well as a ninth
> grader. Not the same at all!
>
> > and he has a novel that he works on from time to time, but he hates
> > grammar.
> >
>
>
>
> > I did order the Singapore math books
> >
>
>
>
> > I am still deliberating about what to do in the English department
> >
>
> Leave the English departments in the colleges for the professors! ;-)
>
>
> > they will pursue them of their own accord.
> >
>
>
>
> > I hope this sets the bar for our unschooling adventures, and I
> > believe that if it does, I will naturally ease up!
> >
>
>
>
> Joyce
>

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Annora ( you did not sign your post so I don't know if this is you real name:)

Take a deep breath... good..take another one.

I don't know if you are new to this group but if you are you may not understand that
Joyce was discussing the ideas you posted and explaining how it would work in unschooling.
You have lots of anxieties about what you perceive as your own short comings.
You were NOT unschooled and it seems that in the end you did great anyway!
If unschoolers got on to College and have to take remedial math they will  not carry the baggage you did.
Maisha ( an unschooler )said once: " My goal is that my children grow up to have only baggage as small as a carry-on and not a whole Samsonite set"
When you write:
"I have this desire to push language arts because I want my kids to be able to engage in "the great conversation. " I want them to be able to read and write!"
That shows a lot of fear.
 I am glad you can look back and see that despite being a drop out you were probably more successful than most of your peers in College.

Its good for the group to examine ideas. That is what Joyce was doing. She was discussing ideas like : "If language is not pushed than child will not be able to have  great conversations or even read"

What if you child does not grow up to be a great conversationalist?? Would you think school and pushing languages would have made him/her one?
No don't answer. It is a rhetorical question. Its a question for people to think about it. If you answer yes to it maybe we can help with that.

Remember that in a discussion list we are discussing ideas. Once an idea is brought up to the list it will be discussed. It may not help you  but it can help others that are new or trying to understand what and how unschooling works.

Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

THe support you will find in this list is huge but it may be totally different than what some are used to.

Here is the kind of support most are used to:
http://sandradodd.com/support/

its also NOT this kind of support:
http://sandradodd.com/support/1%c2%a0 or these  http://sandradodd.com/support/2


and here is the kind of support you will get here:


http://sandradodd.com/help


 Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ulrike Haupt

Hi All
In a couple of the posts on this subject 'reading' at a certain age and learning to read was mentioned. It reminded me of the 'learning to read' story of my youngest daughter's boyfriend. R. is very very bright. When he entered school in grade one the teacher expected the children to colour in pictures. Trees with green leaves and brown stems and blue sky stuff. Since R. is colour blind he figured out the names of the colours on the crayons and used them 'correctly'. His teacher never knew about the colour blindness. But then the teacher did not know that R. could read when she was still 'teaching' the letters of the alphabet. <grin>

This is just an aside.
Blissings
Ulrike
from Namibia - somewhere in Africa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 7, 2009, at 10:24 PM, AnnoraG wrote:

> The entire point of my response was to let the original poster know
> that I have some hang ups too, she seemed to feel like people would
> judge her because of her anxieties. I see that she may have been
> right.



No *person* is judged here. *Ideas* are judged on whether they will
help or hinder unschooling.

Support lists are for people telling each other they're okay. (This
isn't a support list.)

On a discussion lists it's *assumed* most people grew up knowing
school was the only path to success. It's *expected* that people are
worried their child can't learn math without school. It's expected
their ideas and fears are getting in the way of unschooling. It's
understood they want to cling to old comforting ideas.

It's *natural* to worry. Here it's *assumed* people are worrying and
don't know what to do.

This list exists to provide ideas and support *for those who are
ready to let go of a worry and move on*.

Support lists are good for helping people feel good about where they
are and soothing their worries.

Discussion lists are good for helping people move through the
discomfort of changing. When someone's ready to change, the soothing
can make them feel comfortable clinging to old ways because others
are too.

It's not helpful. The sooner someone lets go and goes through the
hard, uncomfortable part of changing, the less damage they have to
undo. And the happier everyone will be. Kids don't give parents years
to leisurely figure this out. They *will* be grown faster than you
can imagine. Right now is the best time to change. Right now is the
best time to work at letting go of fears.

And it *is* work. No one expects it to happen automatically! No one
expects the path to be smooth. It takes focus and work to weed out
old ideas that are entangled in our thoughts. It can be like
untangling a knotted rope.

> I wrote nothing to infer that I did not love and respect my
> children for who they are. I KNOW my daughter shouldn't necessarily
> be reading and I am not pushing her to read.
>

Not everyone on this list knows it's okay if their child isn't
reading at 7.

Not everyone on this list is not pushing their child to read.

Not everyone on this list is not worrying about a non-reading 7 (or 8
or 11) year old.

Once a post goes to the list the ideas are no longer about the
sender. The ideas become about everyone who reads them and how those
ideas could affect their unschooling growth. The ideas become talking
points to help others who may be stuck in the same place.

Writing to a huge audience who may be anywhere on the unschooling
spectrum, who may have kids damaged by school, who may have toddlers
who were never in school, who may love structured learning or hate
it, who may have autistic kids, who may have 6 kids with wildly
different personalities, can be tricky!

The process involves not just transferring thoughts to words, but
hearing those words the way other people will interpret them.

Nothing in your post tells new unschoolers that you're new to this.
To a new unschooler it suggests that it's okay to worry about reading
and math.

It's *natural* to worry about reading and math and history. It's not
helpful to worry. And we're here to discuss ideas that will help
someone move on.

> FYI: my daughter loves math workbooks.
>

It helps when writing on a discussion list to think how the words
will be read by many different people.

Some kids like workbooks. Some kids hate workbooks. Some kids think
workbooks make mom happy. Some kids think workbooks make you learn
what you're supposed to. Some moms *hear* that kids will learn math
through life experiences but tense up when their child plays video
games and sigh with relief when their child reaches for a workbook.
That child will know she's being judged and may want to do what's
"right" to please mom even if she feels it's wrong for her.

> Furthermore, they do not have the personalities that would allow
> them to be satisfied with right answers and no concrete understanding.
>


No one else has your children. Advice dependent on a family's
personalities can be a disaster in someone else's family.

*I* went through school satisfied with right answers and no concrete
understanding. That is my personality. I enjoy absorbing facts.
(Probably why I did well in school!)

What will help people unschool is helping them understand why it
works. It's why the principles are discussed more than specific
materials.


> And with an attentive parent by their sides, my children are not
> very likely to move through if they can't understand something.

In general terms, it's okay if kids move on with an imperfect
understanding. Humans naturally learn by building understanding bit
by bit. The process often involves wrong understanding and growing a
better understanding from how something is not working.

Building towers involves a lot of collapsed towers. Often we learn
more from making mistakes than from doing things right.

We naturally learn basically by the scientific method. We observe. We
come up with a theory on why something is happening or how something
works. We test that theory. We observe and analyze the results. If
the theory didn't work as we expected, we refine the theory and repeat.

> We do all of the things besides books on tape. Why would you assume
> that we don't?
>

I made no assumptions about you. My reply was to everyone reading.
Some of them I *know* are baffled -- I was 14 years ago! -- when
trying to think of literature outside of the school model.

> > In real life English doesn't stop with literature. It's connected to
> > everything. Don't put it in a box. That's when it gets dull!
>
> Ummm...speech, okay. What else?
>


I'm not sure what you're asking.

> My 7 year old has a comic book character named Cat Dak. I don't
> think she would be doing "better" by recognizing sight words.

Yet lots of people reading trying to let go of the old ideas about
learning and adopt the new ideas will think exactly that.

It's natural to assume schools are using the best methods possible to
teach like phonics and sight reading. It's hard to let go of that
idea. It's hard to embrace different ideas that seem counter to what
someone knows is true.


> But, your English sounds like the same old communication I
> associate English with.
>

Not sure what you mean.

If someone asks specifically for literature ideas people here could
come up with several dozen. But when it might take an hour or more to
compose a thoughtful reply to a post asking lots and lots of general
unschooling, that's expecting a bit much from volunteers!

As unsatisfying as it sounds, what unschoolers do isn't as helpful
for new unschoolers as understanding how children learn. What
unschoolers do can, on the surface, look like school. Some unschooled
kids will do workbooks. (And a new to unschooling mom who is worried
will eagerly grasp at that!)

The why beneath our choices is way more important for someone trying
to unschool their kids. My daughter writing a novel helps no one
unschool. (And I'm sure several people whose child won't even write a
note are more worried now!) The novel isn't important! What's
important is supporting their interests. I supported Kathryn's love
of various video games and TV shows, drawing, writing, dinosaurs,
Slugbugs, Pokemon, olives, pens, Beanies ... No one else could do
exactly that and have a child write a novel.

But if someone supports and respects *their* child's interests, the
child will happily pursue what they enjoy.

When I first started, I wanted people to tell me what to do. I wanted
unschooling materials to plop into my schoolish understanding of how
kids learn. But what I needed was to let go of the idea that my doing
something specific would move my child from ignorance to a particular
understanding.

Real learning isn't that neat and clean.

> What I wrote applied to my entire family
>

It's helpful to think about how ideas will work in families that are
very different from yours.

> I was talking about us being able to live our lives doing what is
> important to us without the confines of schooling etc.
>

If you could read through the eyes of a new unschooler, you would see
that your post read different from what you intended. No where did
you mention you were new to unschooling. No where did you mention you
were working on letting go of your worries. Your post was supportive
but supportive of worries at the edge of the cliff, not supportive of
jumping off and flying. We're here to help people fly, not feel
comfortable edging toward the cliff.

Joyce

AnnoraG

The description of this group:

A list designed for those new to the philosophy of unschooling. Ask experienced unschoolers all those niggling questions, and find out how unschooling works in real families.

If you're familiar with John Holt's work, but unsure of how to begin or what an unschooling day really looks like, this is a place for you to discuss,question, ponder and become deeply familiar with natural learning and how it affects our entire lives. From parenting issues to learning from the whole wide world and beyond, come explore the issues that unschooling families have dealt with in the past and how to get beyond "school-think" to a joyful unschooling lifestyle!

Joyce wrote:
Support lists are good for helping people feel good about where they
> are and soothing their worries.
>
> Discussion lists are good for helping people move through the
> discomfort of changing. When someone's ready to change, the soothing
> can make them feel comfortable clinging to old ways because others
> are too.
>
> It's not helpful. The sooner someone lets go and goes through the
> hard, uncomfortable part of changing, the less damage they have to
> undo. And the happier everyone will be. Kids don't give parents years
> to leisurely figure this out. They *will* be grown faster than you can imagine. Right now is the best time to change. Right now is the best time to work at letting go of fears. This list exists to provide ideas and support *for those who are
> ready to let go of a worry and move on*.
>
> And it *is* work. No one expects it to happen automatically! No one
> expects the path to be smooth. It takes focus and work to weed out
> old ideas that are entangled in our thoughts. It can be like
> untangling a knotted rope.

This group sounded perfect for me. I do not adopt foreign philosophies or try on new ones that sound a bit appealing. I discovered a word for my attitude and thoughts and the fact that there were others that held these beliefs. I was excited. I did not know I had stumbled upon a group of people containing a hierarchy that were there to teach me to "think" right. Excuse me for stepping up as a simple peon and insinuating that the proof in the pudding will ease anxieties.

>Not everyone on this list knows it's okay if their child isn't
> reading at 7.
>
> Not everyone on this list is not pushing their child to read.
>
> Not everyone on this list is not worrying about a non-reading 7 (or 8
> or 11) year old.
>
> Once a post goes to the list the ideas are no longer about the
> sender. The ideas become about everyone who reads them and how those
> ideas could affect their unschooling growth. The ideas become talking
> points to help others who may be stuck in the same place.
>
> Writing to a huge audience who may be anywhere on the unschooling
> spectrum, who may have kids damaged by school, who may have toddlers
> who were never in school, who may love structured learning or hate
> it, who may have autistic kids, who may have 6 kids with wildly
> different personalities, can be tricky!
>
> The process involves not just transferring thoughts to words, but
> hearing those words the way other people will interpret them.
>
> Nothing in your post tells new unschoolers that you're new to this.
> To a new unschooler it suggests that it's okay to worry about reading
> and math.
>
> It's *natural* to worry about reading and math and history. It's not
> helpful to worry. And we're here to discuss ideas that will help
> someone move on.

John Holt's life work was spawned by worrying about children learning and how parents can facilitate that learning. No where in the list description does it imply that this list exists to help people get over that. My understanding of "school think" is the thought that children should learn things at a certain time in a certain way. The advice that I expected to find on this list was help with dealing with children of varying ages and interests, in some cases interests that stray from my own knowledge. I expected "experienced unschoolers" to be able to give me suggestions of ways to go beyond the books in cases where I was at a loss due to my own ability to relate unfamiliar things to the real world. Or help with giving all of my children the attention they need and deserve without compartmentalizing their days. I am not new to this philosophy, I am new to having three children totally dependent on me to facilitate their learning. If I have instead stumbled upon a group that is interested in treating unschooling as dogma and will be trying to shame me about my thoughts, and insisting that I simply have faith, let me know now so i can leave this group. I am not looking for a preacher. I would however, like to stay because of the issues that I did plan on bringing up to the group.

> It helps when writing on a discussion list to think how the words
> will be read by many different people.
>
> Some kids like workbooks. Some kids hate workbooks. Some kids think
> workbooks make mom happy. Some kids think workbooks make you learn
> what you're supposed to. Some moms *hear* that kids will learn math
> through life experiences but tense up when their child plays video
> games and sigh with relief when their child reaches for a workbook.
> That child will know she's being judged and may want to do what's
> "right" to please mom even if she feels it's wrong for her.

No, it is not important to think about how those words might be read unless this is a group that tells people how to think and my words may induce fear in the ruling class that I am poisoning the masses with my wayward ideas. I shouldn't need to justify the fact that my daughter hates video games and thinks of math workbooks as puzzle books.

> Yet lots of people reading trying to let go of the old ideas about
> learning and adopt the new ideas will think exactly that.
>
> It's natural to assume schools are using the best methods possible to
> teach like phonics and sight reading. It's hard to let go of that
> idea. It's hard to embrace different ideas that seem counter to what
> someone knows is true.

Is it really natural to assume that? You also said that this group is for people who are ready to let go of all that? Which is it? Is it a matter of you trying to indoctrinate people or is it a matter of you discussing your experience to help people who are on the same page and trying to maintain an unschooling household?

As unsatisfying as it sounds, what unschoolers do isn't as helpful
> for new unschoolers as understanding how children learn. What
> unschoolers do can, on the surface, look like school. Some unschooled
> kids will do workbooks. (And a new to unschooling mom who is worried
> will eagerly grasp at that!)

Give the readers a little more credit. This is billed as a group that helps people who have already been introduced to the philosophy apply it.


>If you could read through the eyes of a new unschooler, you would see
> that your post read different from what you intended. No where did
> you mention you were new to unschooling. No where did you mention you
> were working on letting go of your worries. Your post was supportive
> but supportive of worries at the edge of the cliff, not supportive of
> jumping off and flying. We're here to help people fly, not feel
> comfortable edging toward the cliff.

I am not new to unschooling, I am new to the word. I am sure when the worries I have now dissipate they will be replaced with new worries and I really see no reason to defend that. We have to worry. Discussing healthy ways to deal with that would make sense, but implying that we should not worry at all is ridiculous. My son chose to go to school, but ended up needing medication to sit in the class and do what they wanted him to do. He really did not want to leave school, but is much happier now that he is out and off of the medications. Should I have not worried and let it continue? And once again, this is billed as a group to discuss issues of parenting and daily life with experienced unschoolers, not a place to have our faith strengthened.



Annora.
>

Barbara

Thank you all for being so understanding and helpful. I am still trying to figure out what's best for my kids..but I appreciate all the great ideas!! Thanks again for being a place I can come to when I get "frustrated" at myself or my family!!

plaidpanties666

Admittedly it sometimes seems like radical unschooling discussion lists should come with warning lables. There's a style of discussion that exists on these lists that I haven't seen anywhere else - its not a debate style, nor is it a support group style. It can be quite a shock! I found, early in my journey onto discussion lists, to imagine I was stepping into a different culture. Of course things wouldn't make sense and seem backwards - or rude - at first, that's always the case when you discover a new culture.

>I did not know I had stumbled upon a group of people containing a hierarchy that were there to teach me to "think" right.
********************

If you've been unschooling without other unschoolers around you, then you've been feeling your way along as best you can. There's nothing wrong with that in the least, but its good to realize that there's a pretty extensive body of experience where unschooling is concerned. Unschoolers have been exchanging information and seeing what helps and what doesn't for over twenty years, now. That can be a little disappointing if you've been feeling like a pioneer. All of a sudden, there are other people saying "btdt, oh, and if you do it This way..." - that's really what you've run up against. Its not personal, its that you've been reinventing the wheel and now you know you can download a schematic, as it were.

Every child, every family is different. So unschooling is going to look different for every child, every family. That being said, twenty years of shared experiences tell us that there are things that help unschooling along, that help unschoolers live more closely aligned to our individual core values.

>>I expected "experienced unschoolers" to be able to give me suggestions of ways to go beyond the books in cases where I was at a loss due to my own ability to relate unfamiliar things to the real world. Or help with giving all of my children the attention they need and deserve without compartmentalizing their days.
**********************

I notice you've been on this list for a few months - in that time there has been a good bit of what you decribe above. I'm guessing you haven't been reading very much onlist if you haven't run across that, yet, those are pretty frequent topics of discussion.

>>If I have instead stumbled upon a group that is interested in treating unschooling as dogma and will be trying to shame me about my thoughts, and insisting that I simply have faith, let me know now so i can leave this group. I am not looking for a preacher. I would however, like to stay because of the issues that I did plan on bringing up to the group.
*********************

I honestly recommend you take a few weeks to read and make up your own mind on the matter. Read some older posts, too. Do a search on the list for topics of interest to you and see what comes up. Get a sense of how questions get answered around here so that when you throw in your 2c you're not surprised! Its a VERY different format for discussion than you've probably ever encountered.

Here are a couple tips for reading replies:
*Assume the person replying has the best possible intentions. I can guarantee you that Joyce, and all the other long time list members have assumed that of you!
*If a post "sounds" harsh to you, go back and read it with a different "tone" in mind - something kind and supportive, or bubbly and enthusiastic, if its someone who uses a lot of Caps and exclamations. Its really easy, given the content of this list, to assume a harsher tone than what's intended by the writer. Change the tone and see how you're understanding changes, too (I have to remind Myself to do this when I'm pmsy, btw).

>> We have to worry. Discussing healthy ways to deal with that would make sense, but implying that we should not worry at all is ridiculous.
**********************

Its natural to worry, but not inevitable. There are a lot of parenting worries that stem from misconceptions about development, for example, or misconceptions about what kids "need". Other worries stem from personal issues - issues from the parent's past, I mean, and recognizing that can help to transform worry into active work on those issues. Some people worry out of a sense of powerlessness, but can let go of worries either by developing a greater sense of personal power or "giving" those worries to a higher power.

It helps unschooling to step away from worries. How to do that depends on specifics - what do You need to move away from those fears?

>>He really did not want to leave school, but is much happier now that he is out and off of the medications. Should I have not worried and let it continue?
************************

Seeing a problem and looking for solutions can happen in the absence of worry. Perhaps you're a naturally very emotional person and have a hard time seeing that distinction? Have you read Naomi Aldorts "Raising our children, raising ourselves"? Its a wonderful book about parenting, if you're interested. One of the things it talks about is stepping back from your own emotional reactions to things involving your child, because those emotional reactions can distort your perceptions. That's something that helps unschooling too, again, helps in the sense of helping You move closer to your own core values as a parent. When you move closer to your core values, you naturally connect more fully with your kids. Emotional reactions can get in the way of that, though - surprising as it may sound. That's because often the first thing one feels, as a reaction to something, is a sort of knee-jerk reaction, built out of habits and old baggage. So stepping back from that feeling, waiting to respond, rather than reacting to a stimulus, can help you be your Best self.

Did that sound like preaching? There's a lot of that kind of talk on unschooling lists. Its not meant to be preachy, its meant to be something heartfelt. There's a lot of passion on this list - you sound pretty passionate yourself! And its easy to misread that, especially if you've been going it alone for so long. Welcome to the company of very passionate people!

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)

Jill Parmer

On Oct 8, 2009, at 9:23 AM, AnnoraG wrote:

> <<<John Holt's life work was spawned by worrying about children
> learning and how parents can facilitate that learning.

Hmmmm, I wonder where you got that about John Holt? In the books
I've read by him, I never got the impression of him worrying about
children learning or telling parents to worry about them. But I was
a bit curious, so I went and looked at my underlining in the books,
and found these:

"All I am saying in this book [How Children Learn] can be summed up
in two words --Trust Children."

These two are from _How Children Fail_:
"They are afraid, above all else, of failing, of disappointing or
displeasing the many anxious adults around them, whose limitless
hopes and expectation for them hang over their heads like a cloud."

"Worrying about the mistakes they might make is as bad as--no, worse
than--worrying about the mistakes they have made."

> <<< We have to worry. >>>

No, one doesn't "have to" worry, there are other choices...like
breathing, trusting, understanding, learning with, remembering,
relaxing,...

This is a really fun page now <http://sandradodd.com/unschool/
haveto>, click it and see the new addition, made me laugh.

Jill




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AnnoraG

Meredith,

No you do not sound like you are preaching, and yes, I have read a few posts that seemed relevant to my life. I don't have time to read them all and the reason I have not posted anything as of yet is that I have not had the time to search the archives and see what I would find there first. My best friend is reading Raising Our Children Raising Ourselves and she was telling me about the exact part that you mentioned just earlier today. She was talking about needing to apply it to herself because I tend to keep my cool when dealing with my children, but I like the fact that you brought it up. I am in fact the opposite of what you are supposing. I know that I have an obsessive personality and therefore don't trust my gut all the time. Such as when I allowed my son to enter kindergarten even though everything inside me screamed "no!" and the fact that I went through experimenting with ADHD treatment instead of calling BS and getting him out sooner. Especially since just two short months later he has no resentment and agrees that it was the best course. But I like the fact that you wrote that. The first response to my post seemed to imply that I actually had negative emotions toward my children where as before I discovered the world of unschooling I felt like I was fighting a single person war revolving around the respect I felt that my children deserved. And I assure you it is quite the opposite of what you think. I am thrilled that I have found people with children who are now adults or older teens who have solid ideas about what may or may not work and what resources are out there rather than having to go it all alone. Everything in Joyce's response pointed at my attitude toward my children and what I SHOULD think and feel. She said very little about anything else. But I assure you, I welcome your words.
This part is also a response to Jill:
Maybe the word "worrying" has a negative connotation around here. Maybe a better word would be concern. John Holt was concerned about public schools being the means to an end that it was not only failing to reach, but was out and out hindering. He was concerned enough about it to devote a large portion of his life to the cause. He then made the switch to helping parents realize that they could themselves be the means to that end and that the end did not necessarily have to be what society dictated. He was concerned about our children having the chance to grow up to be happy, confident people and to enjoy childhood in the meantime. And when I talk about worrying, I am talking about the worry of failing my children, not the worry of them disappointing me. I think that may be another big misconception about my use of the word worry.

--- In [email protected], Jill Parmer <jparmer@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 8, 2009, at 9:23 AM, AnnoraG wrote:
>
> > <<<John Holt's life work was spawned by worrying about children
> > learning and how parents can facilitate that learning.
>
> Hmmmm, I wonder where you got that about John Holt? In the books
> I've read by him, I never got the impression of him worrying about
> children learning or telling parents to worry about them. But I was
> a bit curious, so I went and looked at my underlining in the books,
> and found these:
>
> "All I am saying in this book [How Children Learn] can be summed up
> in two words --Trust Children."
>
> These two are from _How Children Fail_:
> "They are afraid, above all else, of failing, of disappointing or
> displeasing the many anxious adults around them, whose limitless
> hopes and expectation for them hang over their heads like a cloud."
>
> "Worrying about the mistakes they might make is as bad as--no, worse
> than--worrying about the mistakes they have made."
>
> > <<< We have to worry. >>>
>
> No, one doesn't "have to" worry, there are other choices...like
> breathing, trusting, understanding, learning with, remembering,
> relaxing,...
>
> This is a really fun page now <http://sandradodd.com/unschool/
> haveto>, click it and see the new addition, made me laugh.
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 8, 2009, at 7:32 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:

> Every child, every family is different. So unschooling is going to
> look different for every child, every family.

The philosophy, though, is the same.

I think that's a point many beginning unschoolers get hung up on.
Conventional parenting is reactionary: Do x when your child does y.
For those who know all kids are different, it's obvious the same
technique won't work with every child.

But the standard way of finding something that works is to read a lot
of ideas and try appealing ones until something works. It seems trial
and error.

Unschooling offers something better: a philosophical foundation.
Rather than relying on reactionary techniques, people can learn how
get to the heart of a situation and find solutions built from their
values that fit their unique situations.

Unschooling might look like lots of trips to libraries, books, books
on tape, television in some families. Unschooling might look like
lots of hikes, skateboarding, exploration of the woods in other
families. (Most families will have their unique blend of those
extremes ;-)

But they all have in common a desire to treat their children's wants,
needs and interests with respect. So, rather than a blanket statement
to all unschoolers to read more books (or do more skateboarding!),
the advice is to learn who your children are, learn about their
interests and help them explore and expand on those while offering
open doors to other things you think might interest them.

Same advice for every family but what it looks like in practice will
be very different!

> Its natural to worry, but not inevitable.
>


*And* our emotions are not the boss! We can take charge of them and
work to change them. Often a big help is seeing a situation from a
new point of view. For worry and fear, knowledge is a good reliever.

It's very very common for people to come to unschooling boards and
tell us their fear is what prevents them from unschooling. That
implies that everyone here is unschooling because they're
mysteriously free of fear. What's closer to the truth is that
unschoolers push past their fears in order to unschool. They see
something they want so badly that they work hard at overcoming their
fears. It's an ongoing process. Those fears can pop up at anytime.
Even for long time unschoolers. The advantage of being a long time
unschooler, though, is that we've collected years of experience on
our own and from others that we can use to counter the fears!

What's the saying? A hero doesn't act because he lacks fear. A hero
acts to do what's right *despite* his fear.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Oct 8, 2009, at 7:32 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:

> Emotional reactions can get in the way of that, though - surprising
> as it may sound.

Emotional reactions can get in the way of extracting help from a list
like this, too!

When information comes close to a sore spot, some people go into
defense mode. They feel attacked and criticized because their
identity is tied to their choices. If someone points out a way to
do something better, it feels like a personal criticism. They hear
better ideas as "You're wrong. You're bad for doing it that way."
They can react with "I know that needs fixed. I don't need you
pointing that out. I'm not perfect like you are apparently."

People who find it hard to separate themselves from their choices and
ideas, can find lists like this very uncomfortable. *I'm* very much
like this! Some people like that leave. Some fall silent and read. I
found a way to examine my own flaws as I explained the principles to
others.

I, at least, and I think from the thoughtful responses from most
people, assume everyone is flawed. I know people will let old baggage
get in their way. I know they'll try to do things part way to soothe
old fears and find the less than stellar results frustrating. That's
all normal. But what isn't helpful is focusing on how hard it is.
What is helpful is focusing on solutions to fix it.

Joyce

mizelenius

--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <meredith@...> wrote:

> >> We have to worry. Discussing healthy ways to deal with that would make sense, but implying that we should not worry at all is ridiculous.
> **********************
>
> Its natural to worry, but not inevitable.

My take is that we cannot control our feelings-- so, I agree that worry is natural, but I don't know if it is inevitable. We have a book (written for children, but helpful for people of any age) called What to Do When You Worry Too Much http://tinyurl.com/yk8ep57
I think the point of it is to realize that while worries pop up, we can either feed them (so that they grow and fester) or we can minimize them so that their lose power over us.

The other thing is that, just because you may have concerns or doubts about your choices, it doesn't mean that your choices are automatically wrong. For example, my husband and I do have reservations about unschooling. After all, it requires a leap of faith and trust. However, just because we have doubts (which I am not suggesting be simply dismissed) it doesn't make unschooling the wrong choice for us.

I think this is especially true with any transition-- each time I've been pregnant, I've wondered, "How am I going to handle this new addition to the family?" But, once I've actually had the child, obviously things work out. We are new to unschooling in practice but not so new to it philosophically. I don't know if I will continue to worry, but so far I've found that it comes in waves . . .I will trust in the process, but then something arises that makes me reconsider.

Also, I feel like each time I've thought about it, I am further ahead on the path (though I still have a long, long, long way to go). When we first started after pulling DD out of public school (a year ago) it was because my then 6 y.o. specifically asked to be USd (she said, "I learn best when I choose how and what I learn"). When I had doubts earlier, I'd run out and purchase some new curriculum material (it was always math!). We'd try it for a few days or week and then I'd stop because I saw damage being done. Now when I have doubts, I take a deep breath and remember the big picture and leave it at that. I think this will be easier as time goes on-- maybe the worries will crop up less often, and when they do, they will go away faster, so that eventually I won't notice much.

-Elena

amberlee_b

>I did not know I had stumbled upon a group of people containing a hierarchy that were there to teach me to "think" right.

I tend to think of this group as a place where we are learning to UNTHINK or just to stop "thinking" as school or the world would have us. There is no completely RIGHT thing in this world. What maybe right for me is not usually right for my child. It is a way we see the world. I have one child that is very black and white aka right vs wrong. To clean the kitchen table it must be wiped from one end to the other and no spot missed. The other child sees the table needs to be cleaned and does so by wandering around and around the table till it is all done...sometimes center out, other times edge in (we have a circular table). Is his way "wrong"? Maybe in the eyes of the first child (and my mother)......but wasn't the outcome the same? The table got cleaned.... So should I demean him by yelling and screaming that he isn't doing the table "RIGHT" like my mom would have or commend him for noticing the table needed to be cleaned and then using his own little way to do so making it sparkle and look great?

I think as humans who were treated in a demeaning manner we take things so personally because it hurts to think that we aren't thinking "right". When in reality, what was right for us was beaten out of us and now we are conformed drones looking for the answers that our hearts used to have. I don't want to do that to my children which is why I am still here reading, pondering, questioning, changing, growing and understanding these wonderful unschoolers that have done it for soooo long. I am sure at times I sound like a big baby that they just want to toss a foam brick through the internet at.....but, I know what they are really doing is showing us how it can be if we will respect our children the way we wanted desperately to be respected and loved when we were their ages. It is tough to break those chains, but I know the more we hack away at them and redesign our perspectives the better relationships we will have with those who mean the most to us.

Hang in there--take a leap of faith from the cliff and let us push air at you to help you fly!

plaidpanties666

--- In [email protected], "mizelenius" <mizelenius@...> wrote:
>
> My take is that we cannot control our feelings-- so, I agree that worry is natural, but I don't know if it is inevitable. We have a book (written for children, but helpful for people of any age) called What to Do When You Worry Too Much http://tinyurl.com/yk8ep57
> I think the point of it is to realize that while worries pop up, we can either feed them (so that they grow and fester) or we can minimize them so that their lose power over us.
**********************

Another option/way of looking at the matter is that you can feel them and then step past them. Sometimes feelings get "stuck" in a sort of loop in our minds because we don't take the time to really feel them. We crowd them out with other things, distract ourselves from unpleasantness. This is getting a little off topic from unschooling, more into the realm of meditation, though. The important part is that there are ways to get "unstuck" if you're doing a lot of worrying.

---Meredith (Mo 8, Ray 16)