Adrean Clark

I'm a little stumped on this one. My youngest twin Azel is 5. He has
a tendency to not listen to reasoning in the moment and that makes it
difficult for the rest of us. I'm not sure how to resolve situations
without it getting physical -- whether me removing him from it by
picking him up and preventing him from coming in or him from
confronting his brothers.

For example last night, it was late and I was laying down in the same
room with them as they were watching a movie. Azel was flopping around
on the floor giggling with his twin Armand. I knew they were tired so
I asked Armand to lay down with me quietly and pointed out their
laughing would bother others. I also told Azel the same thing. Their
older brother Jael (9) was on the laptop. Jael was getting
increasingly annoyed at them and I told him that he has the choice of
leaving the room and if he stayed he can't complain about them making
noise because he chose to stay.

Azel continued to move and burrow under the blankets on the floor and
started telling Armand to stop giggling. It was not helping and he was
ignoring my attempts to talk with him, so I picked him up and moved
him out of the room. I tried to explain to him that his actions were
disturbing the rest of us (he was the only one moving around and
talking by that time) but he refused to look at me and continued to
try and get back in the room. I tried to explain to him that he was
welcome to come back in if he would be quiet with us but he continued
to physically try to get back in. I had to push him back gently to
stop him and get him to look at me.

He lost his balance and bumped his head on the door frame. It hurt and
he started crying. Finally he looked at me and we could talk. I said
I'm sorry for the bump and told him he was welcome to come back in and
stay with us but he needed to be quiet, it is time to rest.

Azel tends to do things like this -- he is very intense at times. I
feel like I need to physically restrain him from yelling and hitting
his brothers and he does not listen to reasoning as well as they do.
I'd love to catch him before the situation escalates but they are
verbally chattering and I don't see the signs of anger until it's too
late. Remember I am deaf.

Another example -- earlier we went to the bus stop to drop off John.
Azel has his own Nintendo DS and was playing Jael's game on it. Jael
wanted his game back. I explained to Azel that the game is Jael's and
he needs to be fair in sharing and taking turns because its his DS and
Jael's game. I asked him to finish what he was doing and then let Jael
have his turn. Azel continued to play without regarding Jael so I
warned him that if he continued to ignore Jael I would step in. So I
watched him finish the minigame on the DS and then at a reasonable
pause (Jael pushed pause and I told him that's not nice, to let Azel
do it himself.). Well he continued to refuse and I took out the
cartridge and gave it back to Jael and turned back on the DS so Azel
could play in Pictochat.

Azel said "I don't like drawing!" And held up his arm to throw the DS
on the asphalt. I yelled no! But it ended up on the asphalt with a
cracked case as Azel sulked. I was very angry and picked it up,
saying "Since you threw it away, it's mine now.". Azel said "No!".

John said the DS was really Azel's and that I had given it to him.
Better to say that I won't follow through with my plan of buying him a
new one because he didn't take care of the one he has (the top screen
has a defect and it can only play GBA games, hence my hope of getting
him a new DS) I said to Azel "I'm sorry for taking it, it really is
yours. But because you didn't take care of it, I'm not comfortable
buying a new one for you." Azel got upset and started crying that he
wants a new one. I said look at the case, you cracked it by throwing
it. No.

Azel can be very very intense with his emotions. He's physically
bigger than his twin and built like a tank with a solid chest. Armand,
I can reason with and can explain concepts -- he seems to understand
waiting patiently for something to happen. Azel demands it now! And
has explosions where he won't listen to anyone at all until it's over.
He doesn't seem to emotionally understand why things can't happen
right now. I don't like restraining him from situations and from
hurting people because it might end in him getting hurt himself and
that does not help him understand any better.

Azel can be very loving and thoughtful in his own way. He loves to
cuddle and will curl up with me. When he loves he LOVES and when he is
angry he is ANGRY. Very intense - it's frustrating because
communication is important to me and emotions prevent that.

What are some ways to help him deal with his emotions and help him
understand? What can I do better?

Adrean

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Melissa Lake

Hi Adrean,

Wow, Azel sounds a whole lot like my 11 year old. We had allergy testing
done on our son and he is highly sensitive to gluten, casein and eggs. I
have suspicions that he is also sensitive to artificial colors. Anyway,
taking him off of these foods has made a HUGE difference in his emotions and
behavior. He would go from 1 to 10 on in a flash and he just couldn't seem
to settle himself down. What really got us pushing hard for answers was
when he started having anxiety. That is all gone now.

Just a thought. If you want more info, I'd be happy to talk more in detail
about how we stumbled upon Nathan's food intolerances. Nathan is still an
intense kid and I'm so glad for that...I mean he has the sweetest heart and
still comes up to me and hugs me saying, "I love you, Mommy!" The other
day, he was yelling at his older brother and I asked him to please not yell
and he replied, "I'm not yelling! I'm just raising my voice for
emphasis!!" :)

Hugs,
Melissa

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 5:34 AM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:

>
>
> I'm a little stumped on this one. My youngest twin Azel is 5. He has
> a tendency to not listen to reasoning in the moment and that makes it
> difficult for the rest of us. I'm not sure how to resolve situations
> without it getting physical -- whether me removing him from it by
> picking him up and preventing him from coming in or him from
> confronting his brothers.
>
> For example last night, it was late and I was laying down in the same
> room with them as they were watching a movie. Azel was flopping around
> on the floor giggling with his twin Armand. I knew they were tired so
> I asked Armand to lay down with me quietly and pointed out their
> laughing would bother others. I also told Azel the same thing. Their
> older brother Jael (9) was on the laptop. Jael was getting
> increasingly annoyed at them and I told him that he has the choice of
> leaving the room and if he stayed he can't complain about them making
> noise because he chose to stay.
>
> Azel continued to move and burrow under the blankets on the floor and
> started telling Armand to stop giggling. It was not helping and he was
> ignoring my attempts to talk with him, so I picked him up and moved
> him out of the room. I tried to explain to him that his actions were
> disturbing the rest of us (he was the only one moving around and
> talking by that time) but he refused to look at me and continued to
> try and get back in the room. I tried to explain to him that he was
> welcome to come back in if he would be quiet with us but he continued
> to physically try to get back in. I had to push him back gently to
> stop him and get him to look at me.
>
> He lost his balance and bumped his head on the door frame. It hurt and
> he started crying. Finally he looked at me and we could talk. I said
> I'm sorry for the bump and told him he was welcome to come back in and
> stay with us but he needed to be quiet, it is time to rest.
>
> Azel tends to do things like this -- he is very intense at times. I
> feel like I need to physically restrain him from yelling and hitting
> his brothers and he does not listen to reasoning as well as they do.
> I'd love to catch him before the situation escalates but they are
> verbally chattering and I don't see the signs of anger until it's too
> late. Remember I am deaf.
>
> Another example -- earlier we went to the bus stop to drop off John.
> Azel has his own Nintendo DS and was playing Jael's game on it. Jael
> wanted his game back. I explained to Azel that the game is Jael's and
> he needs to be fair in sharing and taking turns because its his DS and
> Jael's game. I asked him to finish what he was doing and then let Jael
> have his turn. Azel continued to play without regarding Jael so I
> warned him that if he continued to ignore Jael I would step in. So I
> watched him finish the minigame on the DS and then at a reasonable
> pause (Jael pushed pause and I told him that's not nice, to let Azel
> do it himself.). Well he continued to refuse and I took out the
> cartridge and gave it back to Jael and turned back on the DS so Azel
> could play in Pictochat.
>
> Azel said "I don't like drawing!" And held up his arm to throw the DS
> on the asphalt. I yelled no! But it ended up on the asphalt with a
> cracked case as Azel sulked. I was very angry and picked it up,
> saying "Since you threw it away, it's mine now.". Azel said "No!".
>
> John said the DS was really Azel's and that I had given it to him.
> Better to say that I won't follow through with my plan of buying him a
> new one because he didn't take care of the one he has (the top screen
> has a defect and it can only play GBA games, hence my hope of getting
> him a new DS) I said to Azel "I'm sorry for taking it, it really is
> yours. But because you didn't take care of it, I'm not comfortable
> buying a new one for you." Azel got upset and started crying that he
> wants a new one. I said look at the case, you cracked it by throwing
> it. No.
>
> Azel can be very very intense with his emotions. He's physically
> bigger than his twin and built like a tank with a solid chest. Armand,
> I can reason with and can explain concepts -- he seems to understand
> waiting patiently for something to happen. Azel demands it now! And
> has explosions where he won't listen to anyone at all until it's over.
> He doesn't seem to emotionally understand why things can't happen
> right now. I don't like restraining him from situations and from
> hurting people because it might end in him getting hurt himself and
> that does not help him understand any better.
>
> Azel can be very loving and thoughtful in his own way. He loves to
> cuddle and will curl up with me. When he loves he LOVES and when he is
> angry he is ANGRY. Very intense - it's frustrating because
> communication is important to me and emotions prevent that.
>
> What are some ways to help him deal with his emotions and help him
> understand? What can I do better?
>
> Adrean
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
>



--
"It's not that the world is a good classroom; it's that classrooms are poor
worlds." Grace Llewellyn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary Hatfield

Hi Adrean,

I have to agree with Melissa's suggestion.  Ever since starting  my son on a gluten free/dairy free diet we have seen remarkable positive changes in his behavior.  I can tell when he has had even the smallest amount of gluten or dairy because it makes him very anxious and almost hyper.  He also complains of his stomach hurting, so he has taken a very active role in avoiding these foods.  I am very concerned about food dyes as well.  I have heard many other moms swear that their child's behavior would change after eating food with dyes.  I had no idea that diet could so dramatically affect children.

Mary























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Azel is allergic to dairy. He usually doesn't eat it as I am allergic
to it too and we have many options available instead of dairy. I
think diet modification is good, definitely need to work on making
GFCF monkey platters available. Thinking back, it seems like his
behavior worsens when he's hungry or tired. So I need to work on
those platters and feed him every 2-3 hours.

What test did your son have for the allergies? We found out about the
dairy from reflex testing (probably wrong name for it).

Adrean

Melissa Lake

First I had him tested through enterolab.com (a stool test) and that just
tested for gluten and casein. Enterolab also did some DNA testing on him.
Then, we took him to our Naturopath and she did a blood test that tested
for 85 different foods.
If he is allergic to dairy, I'd really suggest looking into the gluten
thing. My son is more sensitive to gluten than casein, but they are very
similar proteins and that is why sensitivities to them sometimes go hand in
hand.

Does Azel seem to have strong cravings for starches?
On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Adrean Clark <adreanaline@...> wrote:

>
>
> Azel is allergic to dairy. He usually doesn't eat it as I am allergic
> to it too and we have many options available instead of dairy. I
> think diet modification is good, definitely need to work on making
> GFCF monkey platters available. Thinking back, it seems like his
> behavior worsens when he's hungry or tired. So I need to work on
> those platters and feed him every 2-3 hours.
>
> What test did your son have for the allergies? We found out about the
> dairy from reflex testing (probably wrong name for it).
>
> Adrean
>
>



--
"It's not that the world is a good classroom; it's that classrooms are poor
worlds." Grace Llewellyn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

> Does Azel seem to have strong cravings for starches?

Not sure what foods to think of when referring to starches?


Adrean

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2009, at 12:35 AM, Adrean Clark wrote:

> Not sure what foods to think of when referring to starches?

Bread
Pasta
Cereal
Noodles (basically anything wheat based)
Rice
Corn
Potatoes

Also known as complex carbohydrates. (Simple carbohydrates are sugars.)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 31, 2009, at 12:35 AM, Adrean Clark wrote:
>
> > Not sure what foods to think of when referring to starches?
>
> Bread
> Pasta
> Cereal
> Noodles (basically anything wheat based)
> Rice
> Corn
> Potatoes
>
> Also known as complex carbohydrates. (Simple carbohydrates are sugars.)
>
> Joyce


Several of the above are also simple carbs because they've been stripped of their fiber and all other nutritious parts. Unless it's in it's whole state (like rice and whole grain pasta) there's not much complex carb there at all.

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> Several of the above are also simple carbs because they've been
> stripped of their fiber and all other nutritious parts. Unless it's
> in it's whole state (like rice and whole grain pasta) there's not
> much complex carb there at all.

I believe complex refers to its chemical structure, not to its
nutrition. My daughter is hovering and wants the computer ;-) so
here's the first one that made sense:

> Complex carbohydrates, or polysaccharides, are composed of simple
> sugar units in long chains called polymers. Three polysaccharides
> are of particular importance in human nutrition: starch, glycogen,
> and dietary fiber.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

Thanks for the list -- Yes he does eat a lot of those. I've been
lousy with coordinating our food because the kids don't like what I
and my husband eat. I have been offering them what we eat and it
seems their tastebuds can't stand veggies right now. My food is more
strict because of the Body Ecology Diet now, but DH has said he'll eat
what I eat.

I looked at the tests and while they look great, they are expensive. I
am going to try and see if we can get the pediatrician to test all of
the boys, so insurance can cover it.

There's been discussions about special diets already on this list and
we've had success in eliminating dairy with the twins. I will read
those again. Gluten is going to be a challenge. I need to find easier
ways to make more delicious foods to offer them :/

Adrean

On 5/31/09, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On May 31, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
>> Several of the above are also simple carbs because they've been
>> stripped of their fiber and all other nutritious parts. Unless it's
>> in it's whole state (like rice and whole grain pasta) there's not
>> much complex carb there at all.
>
> I believe complex refers to its chemical structure, not to its
> nutrition. My daughter is hovering and wants the computer ;-) so
> here's the first one that made sense:
>
>> Complex carbohydrates, or polysaccharides, are composed of simple
>> sugar units in long chains called polymers. Three polysaccharides
>> are of particular importance in human nutrition: starch, glycogen,
>> and dietary fiber.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Meredith

Adrean, it sounds like your guy has some pretty big needs. That can be hard with just one kid, I know! but with several, I'm sure its extra-challenging.

One of the things that helped a whole lot with Ray was to really accept that his needs were bigger and more than everyone elses. It sounds unfair - why should one kid "get" more than the others, but ultimately, it ends up being even more unfair to strive for "balance" and have the higher-need child always melting down bc his needs aren't being met.

>> I'm a little stumped on this one. My youngest twin Azel is 5. He has
> a tendency to not listen to reasoning in the moment and that makes it
> difficult for the rest of us. I'm not sure how to resolve situations
> without it getting physical
********************************

Getting physical is actually important! but don't think so much in terms of "physically" removing or stopping him, think "what physical activity can Engage him right now?" That's the hard part, because it will likely mean someone... some parent, for example, will have to take the lead and get up and find some fun, physical thing to do with him. Forget reasoning! If he has an unmet need, he's Unable to listen to reasoning.

Any old posts by Deb Rossing (soggyboysmom) you can find, btw, are a Gold Mine of fun things to do with an active kid that are easy on the parent - I wish I had her as a resource when Ray was little.

> Azel can be very loving and thoughtful in his own way. He loves to
> cuddle and will curl up with me. When he loves he LOVES and when he is
> angry he is ANGRY. Very intense - it's frustrating because
> communication is important to me and emotions prevent that.

Ahhhhh! Consider those emotions as a form of communication in and of themselves. He's trying his heart out to communicate! For him, the emotions Have to be communicated first because they are just Soooooo Biiiiiig! So its important to help him find tools to express those emotions, and move past them - and for now, those tools aren't words. He's physical, so help him find better physical ways to express himself. Hitting people isn't a good way to self-express - are there things he Can hit? For Ray, any kind of arm-swinging was helpful, so throwing was good, as was whacking weeds or swinging a rope or stick around in the air. If yelling helps your guy, look for ways he can yell for release that don't include yelling At his siblings - can he go yell at you, instead? Primal yells, animal sounds, maybe? Ray used to roar like a lion.

I
> feel like I need to physically restrain him from yelling and hitting
> his brothers and he does not listen to reasoning as well as they do.
> I'd love to catch him before the situation escalates but they are
> verbally chattering and I don't see the signs of anger until it's too
> late. Remember I am deaf.
****************************

Talk with him about these things Outside of any stressful situation, and make some plans with him. Make a clear plan of action for the next time certain kinds of situations come up, and see how it goes. Afterwards, talk with him about it - did that work? What can we change for next time?

>>he does not listen to reasoning as well as they do.

He's a different person with different needs. That's challenging - I learned a whole bunch of parenting skills with Ray that are utterly useless with Mo! Know that its okay to use different strategies with different kids - better than okay, its More respectful of all your children.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Debra Rossing

>> Does Azel seem to have strong cravings for starches?

>Not sure what foods to think of when referring to starches?

Breads, potatoes, rice, pastas are all starches

FWIW when DS was younger, he'd get the same as you describe - over the
top, physical, not seeming to hear anything we said, etc. to where we'd
want (and sometimes need for everyone's safety) to physically remove him
from a situation. And he'd resist and fight and still not be able to
'hear' us - until he'd bump his head or stub a toe or whatever. And then
we'd help him through the ouch of the moment - it was kind of like in
the movies when someone gets hysterical and someone else slaps them to
bring them out of that state. What we found, over time (sadly more time
than I'd like), was that he NEEDS two things regularly - protein and
muscle exertion. We started a habit, when things were starting to move
in that direction but BEFORE they got over the top, of bringing food
and/or asking him whether he'd like strawberry or grape jam on his PBJ
(or whether he'd like 8 or 10 crackers with his cheese slices or
whatever). He's learned since then to look for proteins when he starts
to feel a certain way in his own head (he told us one time way back when
that he wanted to stop what he was doing but his brain wouldn't let
him). Along with that, we've found ways for him to use muscles even in
close quarters, non-running type situations - we fell back to the old
concept of isometric exercises and such. So, if we're standing in line
for something, he might try to push me backward palm to palm. Or, I'll
pretend to bounce him like a basketball with my hand patting the top of
his head as he bounces up and down in place. We've also done things like
I'd put my two hands together palms out, thumbs tucked behind and
overlapped to create a wall; then he'd punch at my hands to 'break' the
wall; I'd let it give slowly, bit by bit for a few hits until his hand
punched through and I'd kiss his knuckles and rebuild the wall. As he
got a little bigger, I'd call out lefts and rights to make it more
intriguing. I've gotten odd looks from folks on occasion when he has
smashed into me full on while I'm chatting - they think he's being mean
or trying to hurt me. I know that he's burning energy and I'm prepared
for it (they can't figure out how I can carry on a pleasant conversation
while being smashed by a kid who is now in the 80-something pound range
and is only about half a foot shorter than I am - it's all in the
balance). Those are just a few options but we've come up with lots of
ways for him to burn energy and use his muscles over the years,
depending on where we are and what is appropriate for that venue/space
(at home we'll often do pseudo martial arts type sparring, trying to tap
each other on the shoulder - he's amazed that ole mom is pretty quick
for a mom lol).

Deb R


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Debra Rossing

> Unless it's in its whole state (like rice and whole grain pasta)
there's not much complex carb there at all.


Yup, that's why we make all our own pasta and bread products from grain
we grind ourselves, wheat, rye, corn (Popcorn makes the BEST
cornbread!), buckwheat, etc. For health reasons, complex carbs are it -
stripped out simple carbs are a significant health impact for me. So, I
don't go there. I'm lucky enough to have a hubby who loves to grind his
own grain and make dough products from scratch (even bagels!)

Deb R


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Debra Rossing

> Any old posts by Deb Rossing (soggyboysmom) you can find, btw, are a
Gold Mine of fun things to do with an active kid that are easy on the
parent - I wish I had her as a resource when Ray was little.

LOL thanks - we STILL do lots of physical stuff and DS is turning 11
tomorrow. I'm pretty amazed that I can STILL take a full on run across
the room hit from him without crashing into little pieces (I'm "pulling
45" NOT "pushing 50" lol). It's also helpful that now he is able to
recognize those needs and both express them when he needs help and help
himself address them. For instance, sometimes, he'll say "I think I need
to get on the stationary bike for a while" - and he'll peddle for 20 or
30 minutes and feel more settled (indoor exercise equipment is great for
New England winter nights). For a time, we had both a blow up punching
bag thing (like those old bop clowns that are weighted to always be
upright) and an actual kid-model "peanut bag" that needed boxing gloves
(it hurt otherwise, I tried it!) for him to punch on. A favorite thing
back a few years (when we still bought gallons of cow's milk) was to
carry the milk up from the car to the kitchen - by the time he was 6 or
7 he could carry two full gallons up a flight of stairs; yes, he needs
muscle exertion. Lifting, carrying, pushing, pulling (anyone for a good
old fashioned tug of war? Lol), are all good big muscle activities.

An old favorite (if you can't find old posts) is for me to sit on the
end of the bed or edge of the couch and he'd run at me and try to knock
me backward. I'd resist the first few times and just catch-and-release.
Then, after a few goes, I'd go over backward taking him with me in a big
hug. Now his favorite thing is sparring with me - he'll try to tap my
head or shoulder and I block (wax on, wax off lol) - we'll dance around
the living room like that while I pretend to not pay attention and he
tries to slip by my defenses. Oh, lengths of cheap PVC tucked into cut
down to size pool noodles then taped with duct tape to hold the noodle
in place make great cheap soft boppers to have light saber battles with.

Oh, that reminds me - IME folks who are very physical in these ways also
NEED lots of physical affection - hugs, foot rubs, back rubs, etc. We
even use "squeeze hugs" as a way for him to get out energy when there's
not a lot of leeway for anything else - he squeezes the stuffing out of
me and I squeeze him tight as well to put controlled pressure along the
large muscles of his back. Sometimes two or three good squeeze hugs
disarm an accelerating potentially difficult situation. And, not only
are they good muscle exertions but they provide the positive physical
contact that he needs - just as people need nutrients from food, he
needs hugs and physical contact as nutrients as well. We've developed a
family habit over time of "family hugs" (big ole group hugs, sometimes
we even invite the dog up into a hug lol) and we also hug each other
several times per day - for instance, if I can see that DS is starting
to have a rough time, I'll request a hug because my 'hug meter' is low
and his looks low too. Building in nutritional hugging along with
food/protein nutrition seems necessary for him (and DH as well) to stay
healthy.

Deb R


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Debra Rossing

> If yelling helps your guy, look for ways he can yell for release that
don't include yelling At his siblings - can he go yell at you, instead?

LOL that too - we'd encourage DS to yell as loud as he could - not AT
anyone just flat out yell. When you really YELL it requires a lot of
muscle exertion, plus you have to breath really deeply so it's a great
way to get the energy of the moment out. It releases enough of the
overflow from the emotional bucket that it allows "rational thought and
expression" to return.

A helpful resource when DS was younger was Raising your spirited child.
It helped me to get my arms around some of the things that I just
couldn't quite put my finger on and develop tools to help with them. One
idea (which I've borrowed and paraphrased) is that everyone has a bucket
that holds their emotional level. For most people, there's an overflow
hole like on the tub so that it doesn't overflow often, it just trickles
out the outlet before it gets over the top. For DS (and other people),
that overflow outlet tends to clog and his bucket fills and spills over,
all over everything. So, if that bucket is near full, ANYTHING (good or
bad) can tip the balance and send a cascade over everything. That's why
sometimes it may seem that things spin out of control after a
"wonderful" day. "Wonderful" is still putting water into that bucket.
Finding ways to help 'bail' that bucket before it overflows and/or clear
the clog so it just trickles out instead of gushing is helpful. I've
also thought of his need for physical expression as similar to the way a
pregnant woman needs to pee - it's URGENT (lol) and OFTEN.

Deb R


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I'm lucky enough to have a hubby who loves to grind his
own grain and make dough products from scratch (even bagels!)~~


I'm totally jealous! I've had my eye on the Nutri-mill grinder for several years. I love making bread and grinding our own grains is the next step.:)

Ren
radicalunschooling.blogspot.com