Being careful with things
seccotine_ch
Hello everybody
I have a problem that isn't directly linked to unschooling - but I really would like to read what you're thinking about it, because I'm stucked and don't know what to do.
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
I know they're young, and I realize that I have probably learned to take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being careful is important.
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end, people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you try to explain your situation ...
I'm really looking forward to reading your answers
Many thanks in advance
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
I have a problem that isn't directly linked to unschooling - but I really would like to read what you're thinking about it, because I'm stucked and don't know what to do.
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
I know they're young, and I realize that I have probably learned to take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being careful is important.
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end, people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you try to explain your situation ...
I'm really looking forward to reading your answers
Many thanks in advance
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:47 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:
they're showing you is they aren't yet capable of being aware. Don't
see their actions as not caring. See their actions as *not yet* being
aware of their environment. They're so focused on what they love to
do that they don't really see what's happening.
You need to be the one modeling taking care of things. One of the
better ways people learn is by watching others. Even better is
joining in, doing something joyfully. (Best is seeing the problem
yourself and figuring out a solution, but you can't make someone do
that.) Way low down on the list of effective learning is being told
what to do (when you haven't asked).
Don't show them how to do it. Don't do it with any agenda for them.
Do it just because *you* care. Do it joyfully and invite them to join
you in cleaning up. Be okay if they say no.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mindIf you've explained it once then they understand your words, and what
> and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids
> why I think that being careful is important.
they're showing you is they aren't yet capable of being aware. Don't
see their actions as not caring. See their actions as *not yet* being
aware of their environment. They're so focused on what they love to
do that they don't really see what's happening.
You need to be the one modeling taking care of things. One of the
better ways people learn is by watching others. Even better is
joining in, doing something joyfully. (Best is seeing the problem
yourself and figuring out a solution, but you can't make someone do
that.) Way low down on the list of effective learning is being told
what to do (when you haven't asked).
Don't show them how to do it. Don't do it with any agenda for them.
Do it just because *you* care. Do it joyfully and invite them to join
you in cleaning up. Be okay if they say no.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
N CONFER
I know they're young, and I realize that I have probably learned to
take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish
to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well
that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when
things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
***Then figure out a way to pick those things up. "Are you finished with that DVD? I'll put it in the case."
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that
way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that
it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for
those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and
I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been
careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in
my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my
kids why I think that being careful is important.
***Don't teach. Do. Pick the DVD up and put it in its case and get busy with the next thing.
***And when something is beyond use, figure out how you can explain that you can't afford to replace it. If that's the reality, just say so. If it's not, if money is not an issue :) , then thank your lucky stars.
***And work on getting used to things getting old and used and abused. And not caring so much. :)
***Hug the kids. Worry less about the stuff.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish
to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well
that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when
things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
***Then figure out a way to pick those things up. "Are you finished with that DVD? I'll put it in the case."
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that
way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that
it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for
those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and
I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been
careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in
my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my
kids why I think that being careful is important.
***Don't teach. Do. Pick the DVD up and put it in its case and get busy with the next thing.
***And when something is beyond use, figure out how you can explain that you can't afford to replace it. If that's the reality, just say so. If it's not, if money is not an issue :) , then thank your lucky stars.
***And work on getting used to things getting old and used and abused. And not caring so much. :)
***Hug the kids. Worry less about the stuff.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
I have found that it is helpful to simply ask if anyone would mind helping pick up a few things real quick. If they say no, fine. If they say yes, appreciate it and move on.
They are young and will learn to take better care of things because THEY WANT TO. Not because they were forced to. It is so much more meaningful when it come from the heart and not out of fear. I know others on here will be better at helping. I just wanted to try. LOL.
Melissa-FL
They are young and will learn to take better care of things because THEY WANT TO. Not because they were forced to. It is so much more meaningful when it come from the heart and not out of fear. I know others on here will be better at helping. I just wanted to try. LOL.
Melissa-FL
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 3:47 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:
>
> > So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind
> > and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids
> > why I think that being careful is important.
>
> If you've explained it once then they understand your words, and what
> they're showing you is they aren't yet capable of being aware. Don't
> see their actions as not caring. See their actions as *not yet* being
> aware of their environment. They're so focused on what they love to
> do that they don't really see what's happening.
>
> You need to be the one modeling taking care of things. One of the
> better ways people learn is by watching others. Even better is
> joining in, doing something joyfully. (Best is seeing the problem
> yourself and figuring out a solution, but you can't make someone do
> that.) Way low down on the list of effective learning is being told
> what to do (when you haven't asked).
>
> Don't show them how to do it. Don't do it with any agenda for them.
> Do it just because *you* care. Do it joyfully and invite them to join
> you in cleaning up. Be okay if they say no.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jeff Sabo
Why do you "have to" buy the DVD again?
--- On Tue, 4/21/09, seccotine_ch <seccotine@...> wrote:
> From: seccotine_ch <seccotine@...>
> Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Being careful with things
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 12:47 AM
>
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>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello everybody
>
>
>
> I have a problem that isn't directly linked to
> unschooling - but I really would like to read what
> you're thinking about it, because I'm stucked and
> don't know what to do.
>
>
>
> Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of
> their/ours things the way I'd like them to. This means
> that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't
> be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no time,
> that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
>
>
>
> I know they're young, and I realize that I have
> probably learned to take good care of things (though I
> don't remember when nor how). I wish to add that I'm
> far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well that
> life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I
> don't like when things become old too fast because
> they're not taken good care of.
>
>
>
> My problem is the following : I really hate to see things
> treated that way. Because we don't have the money to
> afford it, because I think that it is disrespectful for the
> people who built these things, and for those who bought them
> and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think
> it's a shame to throw things away just because we
> haven't been careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big
> scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very difficult
> for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that
> being careful is important.
>
>
>
> Actually, I can't understand why they don't
> understand that. I don't see how I could make visible to
> them the importance of being careful. I don't want to
> get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in
> the end, people's feeling are more important than
> things, aren't they ?). On the other hand, it IS
> important for me - so how can I do that ?
>
>
>
> I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I
> know I tell you that everytime that I post here, but my
> English is a bit rudimentary (at least when I have to write,
> reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you
> try to explain your situation ...
>
>
>
> I'm really looking forward to reading your answers
>
>
>
> Many thanks in advance
>
>
>
> Helen in Geneva (Switzerland) , mom of Sylvain (8),
> Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch" <seccotine@...> wrote:
This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read anymore,
******Just wanted to add that we purchased a nice disc resurfacing machine (commonly called a disc doctor) and we are EXTREMELY pleased with it. It hasn't save ALL the DVD's but it has saved many! It will also do video games and CD's.
-Heather
====================================================================
Brad Holcomb
> Just wanted to add that we purchased a nice disc resurfacing machineAnother good option: Brasso. It's a metal cleaner available at most
> (commonly called a disc doctor) and we are EXTREMELY pleased with it.
> It hasn't save ALL the DVD's but it has saved many! It will also do
> video games and CD's.
grocery stores, and definitely at any hardware/home store.
It removes a little of the plastic from the disc, leaving it a little dull
looking, but the laser can read through the dull surface just fine. Just
use a little dab of Brasso on a paper towel, rubbing in a circular motion
but mainly from inner to outer (think of the spokes of a wheel), then wash
off excess with soap and water. Start with light pressure, then test the
disc to see if it plays. If not, try heavier pressure. -=b.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My kids are generaly very careful with their things. Not that DVD's don't get scratched and things broken.
A few things that have worked for me:
1.Make you house child friendly. For example:
My couch was $25 dollars at a thrift store- they can jump whenever they want. My little antique table is in the attic because it ts too fragile for them yet.
They listen more when I ask them to be gentle because I don't have to often say "no".
2.I help them ALL the time care for their toys. I show them how to put in a safe place ( not on floor to be stepped on) and I do it myself most of the time but they now do it a lot ( they are 6 and 3 yo)I don't get upset if the item is on the floor again or I have to ask to be put in a "safe place" for the millionth time. I either just tell them to put it or I do it my self and tell them I did. I don't nag them.
"hey Buzz I put you DS in the safe place right there so it would not get stepped on or break"
I also tell them what I am afraid could happen when they do X or not do Y. Matter of fact. Not on an upset, condescending, teachery voice.
3. I help them fix the toys and I have replaced toys that where broken. IT happens and my kids do feel bad about it because they like their stuff.
4. I have see through containers where their toys are organized and I keep it they best I can ( I am not organized and very, very far from Bree)
5. I have walls that I have painted with my kids art. A lot of them in my house are full of drawings. It works for us. I will have pretty walls when they get older. Some rooms have pretty walls but others are like a canvas.
6. I tell them glass breaks , if you do this it will be like that and you cannot change. I give them information without being a nagging mom. IF it breaks I help them fix without blame ( I have failed a couple times on this but I apologized).
7. For DVD's and CD ( and I have to do this more) you can just make a copy for them to handle and you keep the hard copy. Fab5DVD is a software you can download and get a free trial online that does all that.
8. I have noticed some kids have more of a "heavy hand" than others. Some like to break stuff ( provide them the opportunity then). Help them and facilitate for them.
9. I respect their belongings. I model caring for them like their were mine.
I don't just toss their toys like they were just toys. I help put dolls to sleep. I really care for their belongings like they were ALL prize possessions.
You cannot expect children that age to do it themselves.
Expect to help them over and over again about the same thing.
Remember that even us adults break and spill things, accidents happen and sometimes we are just careless
( I should know as I just a few weeks ago stepped on my laptop and am generally very clumsy)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: seccotine_ch <seccotine@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:47:37 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Being careful with things
Hello everybody
I have a problem that isn't directly linked to unschooling - but I really would like to read what you're thinking about it, because I'm stucked and don't know what to do.
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
I know they're young, and I realize that I have probably learned to take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being careful is important.
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end, people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you try to explain your situation ...
I'm really looking forward to reading your answers
Many thanks in advance
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland) , mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A few things that have worked for me:
1.Make you house child friendly. For example:
My couch was $25 dollars at a thrift store- they can jump whenever they want. My little antique table is in the attic because it ts too fragile for them yet.
They listen more when I ask them to be gentle because I don't have to often say "no".
2.I help them ALL the time care for their toys. I show them how to put in a safe place ( not on floor to be stepped on) and I do it myself most of the time but they now do it a lot ( they are 6 and 3 yo)I don't get upset if the item is on the floor again or I have to ask to be put in a "safe place" for the millionth time. I either just tell them to put it or I do it my self and tell them I did. I don't nag them.
"hey Buzz I put you DS in the safe place right there so it would not get stepped on or break"
I also tell them what I am afraid could happen when they do X or not do Y. Matter of fact. Not on an upset, condescending, teachery voice.
3. I help them fix the toys and I have replaced toys that where broken. IT happens and my kids do feel bad about it because they like their stuff.
4. I have see through containers where their toys are organized and I keep it they best I can ( I am not organized and very, very far from Bree)
5. I have walls that I have painted with my kids art. A lot of them in my house are full of drawings. It works for us. I will have pretty walls when they get older. Some rooms have pretty walls but others are like a canvas.
6. I tell them glass breaks , if you do this it will be like that and you cannot change. I give them information without being a nagging mom. IF it breaks I help them fix without blame ( I have failed a couple times on this but I apologized).
7. For DVD's and CD ( and I have to do this more) you can just make a copy for them to handle and you keep the hard copy. Fab5DVD is a software you can download and get a free trial online that does all that.
8. I have noticed some kids have more of a "heavy hand" than others. Some like to break stuff ( provide them the opportunity then). Help them and facilitate for them.
9. I respect their belongings. I model caring for them like their were mine.
I don't just toss their toys like they were just toys. I help put dolls to sleep. I really care for their belongings like they were ALL prize possessions.
You cannot expect children that age to do it themselves.
Expect to help them over and over again about the same thing.
Remember that even us adults break and spill things, accidents happen and sometimes we are just careless
( I should know as I just a few weeks ago stepped on my laptop and am generally very clumsy)
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
________________________________
From: seccotine_ch <seccotine@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 2:47:37 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Being careful with things
Hello everybody
I have a problem that isn't directly linked to unschooling - but I really would like to read what you're thinking about it, because I'm stucked and don't know what to do.
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
I know they're young, and I realize that I have probably learned to take good care of things (though I don't remember when nor how). I wish to add that I'm far from a Bree Vandekemp - I understand perfectly well that life with kids is messy and that's fine with me. I don't like when things become old too fast because they're not taken good care of.
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way. Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being careful is important.
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end, people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you try to explain your situation ...
I'm really looking forward to reading your answers
Many thanks in advance
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland) , mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Just wanted to add that we purchased a nice disc resurfacing machine (commonly called a disc doctor)
-=----------=-
Could you tell me the brand you got?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=----------=-
Could you tell me the brand you got?
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/21/2009 9:26 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
scratched ones. We bought a more expensive Disc Doctor -- same with that
- not too good at repairing. Then I did some research and bought an
aleratec and that works much much better on repairing scratched dvd's.
<Aleratec.com>
> Could you tell me the brand you got?We bought a cheap one - it cleaned dirty discs but didn't repair
>
>
scratched ones. We bought a more expensive Disc Doctor -- same with that
- not too good at repairing. Then I did some research and bought an
aleratec and that works much much better on repairing scratched dvd's.
<Aleratec.com>
swissarmy_wife
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
-Heather
========================================================================
> Could you tell me the brand you got?******It says Motorized Automax on the side. And on the bottom it has the web address www.digitalinnovations.com I just tried the website and it wouldn't work though. We bought it at a chain music store. I believe they had two or three brands and this one was the more expensive one. Sorry for the vague info. Hope it helps some. :-)
-Heather
========================================================================
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Thanks for the tips. As soon as I can I will get one!
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tammy Curry
Thank you very much for posting about the DVD repair. I have lost count of how many DVD's we have that are in need of repair. My hubby is now excited because a few of his favorites became the kids' favorites and they are well, not quite unwatchable but a couple of cool scenes we end up skipping over.
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tammy Curry, Director of Chaos
http://tammycurry.blogspot.com/
http://crazy-homeschool-adventures.blogspot.com/
"If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in."
Rachel Carson
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Melissa" <ckent001@...> wrote:
Ray takes good care of his own things and helps out in the kitchen and the woodshop. Mo tries to take care of some of her things. This weekend she came and helped me clean the living room which was (as usual) covered in paper scraps from her daily cut-and-tape fun. She was very careful about weeding out the things she wanted to keep so I didn't have to pick through the mess and try to figure that out, myself. She's only just started being able to help like this, and only if I'm doing it Happily. That's important. I don't always clean happily - I sometimes do it with a dull sense of "here we go again" and Mo can tell the difference, for sure. Who'd want to be around me in that state of mind? :(
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>****************************
> I have found that it is helpful to simply ask if anyone would mind helping pick up a few things real quick. If they say no, fine. If they say yes, appreciate it and move on.
> They are young and will learn to take better care of things because THEY WANT TO. Not because they were forced to. It is so much more meaningful when it come from the heart and not out of fear. I know others on here will be better at helping. I just wanted to try. LOL.
> Melissa-FL
Ray takes good care of his own things and helps out in the kitchen and the woodshop. Mo tries to take care of some of her things. This weekend she came and helped me clean the living room which was (as usual) covered in paper scraps from her daily cut-and-tape fun. She was very careful about weeding out the things she wanted to keep so I didn't have to pick through the mess and try to figure that out, myself. She's only just started being able to help like this, and only if I'm doing it Happily. That's important. I don't always clean happily - I sometimes do it with a dull sense of "here we go again" and Mo can tell the difference, for sure. Who'd want to be around me in that state of mind? :(
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Meredith
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
These are both really important points. We changed a whole lot of expectations (and doors and furniture) when Ray was younger. He broke things without meaning to a Lot. He had the ability to be gentle if he was concentrating, but he couldn't concentrate Alllllll the time. Getting furniture we didn't mind being damaged helped us relax. Taking the doors off the cabinets did too. And when we relaxed, less Other things broke. When we weren't adding our stress to the mix, Ray could concentrate more often. He still slams doors most of the time and breaks chairs by figitting (sp?) them to pieces, though. It may be something he eventually grows out of, but maybe not.
He also liked to swing his arms a lot - still does. Something about that big muscle action feels good to him. As a kid, he liked swinging sticks around, so we found him lots of weeds to whack. Fortunately we live in the country! There are plenty of weeds! Now he has a hobby where he twirls this giant baton (with the ends lit on fire, but mostly not when he's practicing) and I see him using the same sorts of big muscle groups he favored as a kid. He's also loving his new blacksmithing class - again, more big arm motions.
Anyway, when kids are "destroying" things regularly, its good to look for patterns - are they kicking or whacking or throwing, for example. Sometimes the destruction is a side-effect of using a big muscle group and you can offer other activities to meet the same need. But its also fun to destroy things - sooooooo satisfying! and interesting, too. You get a whole different look at how things are made by taking them apart.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> 8. I have noticed some kids have more of a "heavy hand" than others. Some like to break stuff ( provide them the opportunity then). Help them and facilitate for them.************************
These are both really important points. We changed a whole lot of expectations (and doors and furniture) when Ray was younger. He broke things without meaning to a Lot. He had the ability to be gentle if he was concentrating, but he couldn't concentrate Alllllll the time. Getting furniture we didn't mind being damaged helped us relax. Taking the doors off the cabinets did too. And when we relaxed, less Other things broke. When we weren't adding our stress to the mix, Ray could concentrate more often. He still slams doors most of the time and breaks chairs by figitting (sp?) them to pieces, though. It may be something he eventually grows out of, but maybe not.
He also liked to swing his arms a lot - still does. Something about that big muscle action feels good to him. As a kid, he liked swinging sticks around, so we found him lots of weeds to whack. Fortunately we live in the country! There are plenty of weeds! Now he has a hobby where he twirls this giant baton (with the ends lit on fire, but mostly not when he's practicing) and I see him using the same sorts of big muscle groups he favored as a kid. He's also loving his new blacksmithing class - again, more big arm motions.
Anyway, when kids are "destroying" things regularly, its good to look for patterns - are they kicking or whacking or throwing, for example. Sometimes the destruction is a side-effect of using a big muscle group and you can offer other activities to meet the same need. But its also fun to destroy things - sooooooo satisfying! and interesting, too. You get a whole different look at how things are made by taking them apart.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Elissa
A few summers ago, we cut back alot of scraggly bushes on our property using a machete. It was an incredibly satisfying whoosh and thwack feeling.
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
Elissa, Unschooling Momma to Emily 15, and Max 9. Proud Momma to Zack, 21.
How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it.
--Alexandre Dumas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Meredith" <meredith@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:35:57 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Being careful with things
--- In [email protected] , BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>> 8. I have noticed some kids have more of a "heavy hand" than others. Some like to break stuff ( provide them the opportunity then). Help them and facilitate for them.
************************
These are both really important points. We changed a whole lot of expectations (and doors and furniture) when Ray was younger. He broke things without meaning to a Lot. He had the ability to be gentle if he was concentrating, but he couldn't concentrate Alllllll the time. Getting furniture we didn't mind being damaged helped us relax. Taking the doors off the cabinets did too. And when we relaxed, less Other things broke. When we weren't adding our stress to the mix, Ray could concentrate more often. He still slams doors most of the time and breaks chairs by figitting (sp?) them to pieces, though. It may be something he eventually grows out of, but maybe not.
He also liked to swing his arms a lot - still does. Something about that big muscle action feels good to him. As a kid, he liked swinging sticks around, so we found him lots of weeds to whack. Fortunately we live in the country! There are plenty of weeds! Now he has a hobby where he twirls this giant baton (with the ends lit on fire, but mostly not when he's practicing) and I see him using the same sorts of big muscle groups he favored as a kid. He's also loving his new blacksmithing class - again, more big arm motions.
Anyway, when kids are "destroying" things regularly, its good to look for patterns - are they kicking or whacking or throwing, for example. Sometimes the destruction is a side-effect of using a big muscle group and you can offer other activities to meet the same need. But its also fun to destroy things - sooooooo satisfying! and interesting, too. You get a whole different look at how things are made by taking them apart.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
There has been loads of great ideas. I just wanted to share a few things
that works for us.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things
the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again,
because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no
time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
***It sounds like you are owning the problem but stuck a bit.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way.
Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is
disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who
bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a
shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when
I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very
difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being
careful is important.
*** Remember that they are just things and that your children are living
people that can really be hurt.
I talk to my children informational about expenses and waste. I talk about
real life consequences. I try not to nag or preach or teach.
I have found that when things have a "home" they are better cared for, it is
easier. You don't have to make a desiscion about where something goes. We
have bins and shelves and baskets. We have a place for everything (or try
to)
Our dvds and video games have a shelf that they go on. it is out of reach
for the baby but not too high for a kid that knows how to work the systems.
They are in a closed cabinet and they are not toys. They are tools for
viewing things.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how
I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want
to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end,
people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the
other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
***They will get it. They may have to break a few important things to
understand. I have a kid who has to learn from her own experience. She needs
to break eggs, so to speak.
-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that
everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least
when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you
try to explain your situation ...
***you did fine.
thanks
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that works for us.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Here it is : my kids (8, 6 and 3 yo) don't take care of their/ours things
the way I'd like them to. This means that we have to buy some DVD again,
because they can't be read anymore, that some of our books are used in no
time, that they let their clothes on the floor, etc.
***It sounds like you are owning the problem but stuck a bit.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way.
Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is
disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who
bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a
shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when
I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very
difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being
careful is important.
*** Remember that they are just things and that your children are living
people that can really be hurt.
I talk to my children informational about expenses and waste. I talk about
real life consequences. I try not to nag or preach or teach.
I have found that when things have a "home" they are better cared for, it is
easier. You don't have to make a desiscion about where something goes. We
have bins and shelves and baskets. We have a place for everything (or try
to)
Our dvds and video games have a shelf that they go on. it is out of reach
for the baby but not too high for a kid that knows how to work the systems.
They are in a closed cabinet and they are not toys. They are tools for
viewing things.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Actually, I can't understand why they don't understand that. I don't see how
I could make visible to them the importance of being careful. I don't want
to get mad at them, because it is so useless (and because, in the end,
people's feeling are more important than things, aren't they ?). On the
other hand, it IS important for me - so how can I do that ?
***They will get it. They may have to break a few important things to
understand. I have a kid who has to learn from her own experience. She needs
to break eggs, so to speak.
-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=
I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. I know I tell you that
everytime that I post here, but my English is a bit rudimentary (at least
when I have to write, reading is fine), and it's always frustrating when you
try to explain your situation ...
***you did fine.
thanks
Faith
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/22/2009 11:47 AM, Faith Void wrote:
careless, it would be disrespectful because you're aware of what it
takes to earn the money to buy things. For you, the connection between
someone else's hard work and that object is crystal clear. You can't
help but be aware of it. That makes it very difficult for you to be
realistic about the children's actual sense of those same objects. They
do NOT have any sense of connection between work/sacrifice and the
dvd's or toys or clothing or furniture. They just do not have it.
Because they don't have it, they aren't being disrespectful by being
careless. They are just being careless in the literal sense of the word
- care-less. They care less than you because they are children. You
can't make them care more right now - that will come with their own
experience and growth of empathy and as the become less egocentric. They
WILL eventually care about their things - and you can focus on treating
their things respectfully now, but don't project adult feelings about
material goods onto children.
Make it as easy as you can for things to be well taken care of - if
there are particular things that bother you, figure out a system to
handle those particular things. If it is dvd's being left on the floor
or in other risky places, get a pretty basket, line it with some soft
fabric, and make that the dvd box. The kids don't need to put the discs
away where they belong, but you can ask them to drop them into the dvd
basket. Or, every so often, throughout the day, you can wander through
and gather any dvd's on the floor or the tabletops or wherever, and drop
them into the dvd basket. At the end of the day, put them where they
belong, yourself. It is WAY too much trouble to put discs away - but
dropping them into a basket is more likely to work for them. We have a
basket in front of our tv that holds all the dvd's and Wii games - when
it starts to get full, somebody goes through it and sorts everything out
and puts all the discs into their cases.
For clothing - first, I don't think it particularly hurts clothing for
it to be left around on the floor or bed or chairs - not unless people
are walking on it with really dirty shoes. So, maybe just ignore it.
But, the big basket idea works here, too. It takes about 10 seconds to
wander into a kids' room and gather any clothing left on the floor and
toss it into a big open basket that is sitting right out in the open.
Problem solved. Second - if you put hooks up - hooks that really HOLD
the clothing, not pegs that clothing slides off of easily - then
still-clean clothing can be hung there very quickly. That's a lot more
reasonable to expect than hanging on a hanger in a closet or folding in
a drawer.
Another suggestion is to change the way you think about this stuff.
Don't think of it in such broad terms as "My children are careless with
things." That's too overwhelming plus it has a sense of negativity
toward the kids that isn't useful in being solution-oriented. Instead,
think of it as a number of related, but different, little situations to
resolve. Example: Given our nature/habits, how can we set up a way to
keep dvd's from being ruined? THAT is a problem looking for a real
solution. "How can I get my kids to be respectful and not careless with
their things?" is too general and contains within it a negativity about
the kids that will obstruct the solution-oriented kind of thinking that
will really lead to a more peaceful and enjoyable life together.
Break down problems into manageable sizes and be solution oriented.
-pam
-pam
> My problem is the following : I really hate to see things treated that way.Try to get over the idea of it being disrespectful. If "you" were
> Because we don't have the money to afford it, because I think that it is
> disrespectful for the people who built these things, and for those who
> bought them and gave them to my kids, because it's waste and I think it's a
> shame to throw things away just because we haven't been careful ... So, when
> I see a DVD with big scratches, all this come in my mind and it is very
> difficult for me to stay calm and explain to my kids why I think that being
> careful is important.
>
careless, it would be disrespectful because you're aware of what it
takes to earn the money to buy things. For you, the connection between
someone else's hard work and that object is crystal clear. You can't
help but be aware of it. That makes it very difficult for you to be
realistic about the children's actual sense of those same objects. They
do NOT have any sense of connection between work/sacrifice and the
dvd's or toys or clothing or furniture. They just do not have it.
Because they don't have it, they aren't being disrespectful by being
careless. They are just being careless in the literal sense of the word
- care-less. They care less than you because they are children. You
can't make them care more right now - that will come with their own
experience and growth of empathy and as the become less egocentric. They
WILL eventually care about their things - and you can focus on treating
their things respectfully now, but don't project adult feelings about
material goods onto children.
Make it as easy as you can for things to be well taken care of - if
there are particular things that bother you, figure out a system to
handle those particular things. If it is dvd's being left on the floor
or in other risky places, get a pretty basket, line it with some soft
fabric, and make that the dvd box. The kids don't need to put the discs
away where they belong, but you can ask them to drop them into the dvd
basket. Or, every so often, throughout the day, you can wander through
and gather any dvd's on the floor or the tabletops or wherever, and drop
them into the dvd basket. At the end of the day, put them where they
belong, yourself. It is WAY too much trouble to put discs away - but
dropping them into a basket is more likely to work for them. We have a
basket in front of our tv that holds all the dvd's and Wii games - when
it starts to get full, somebody goes through it and sorts everything out
and puts all the discs into their cases.
For clothing - first, I don't think it particularly hurts clothing for
it to be left around on the floor or bed or chairs - not unless people
are walking on it with really dirty shoes. So, maybe just ignore it.
But, the big basket idea works here, too. It takes about 10 seconds to
wander into a kids' room and gather any clothing left on the floor and
toss it into a big open basket that is sitting right out in the open.
Problem solved. Second - if you put hooks up - hooks that really HOLD
the clothing, not pegs that clothing slides off of easily - then
still-clean clothing can be hung there very quickly. That's a lot more
reasonable to expect than hanging on a hanger in a closet or folding in
a drawer.
Another suggestion is to change the way you think about this stuff.
Don't think of it in such broad terms as "My children are careless with
things." That's too overwhelming plus it has a sense of negativity
toward the kids that isn't useful in being solution-oriented. Instead,
think of it as a number of related, but different, little situations to
resolve. Example: Given our nature/habits, how can we set up a way to
keep dvd's from being ruined? THAT is a problem looking for a real
solution. "How can I get my kids to be respectful and not careless with
their things?" is too general and contains within it a negativity about
the kids that will obstruct the solution-oriented kind of thinking that
will really lead to a more peaceful and enjoyable life together.
Break down problems into manageable sizes and be solution oriented.
-pam
-pam
diana jenner
>Soon enough you'll find yourself buying new ones because the technology will
> This means that we have to buy some DVD again, because they can't be read
> anymore
>
change (says the woman who loved, loved, loved beta!!)
The newfangled DVDs are offered in a variety of options! In the spirit of
new technology, we're buying new movies on BluRay - which includes 3, yes
THREE copies of the movie: DVD, BluRay and Digital!! (20$US for DVD only,
30$US for all three)
The major bonus, in your situation, is the digital version (kept on your
computer) can be burned onto DVDs as needed!
Don't forget to breathe!!
Pristine DVDs aren't gonna be taking care of you when you're old!!
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com
dianas365.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seccotine_ch
Hello
Thank you so much for all your messages - they've really been helpful. Thank you for reminding me that there is a difference between understanding something and being able to act accordingly. Sincerely.
I'm really not a big materialistic person. Actually, it's not really about things themselves (after all, they're only here for us to use them and not the other way around), it's more about respecting the people who have made them, the stuff who's been used to make them, the work my husband and I had to do to buy them, and also the fact that we are lucky to have all this in our lives and houses, the luxury we live in.
This is probably too abstract for them to grasp. I guess that, on the other hand, this is also about me. Not wasting is an important value for me, probably not as important as respecting kids and giving them time and space to grow, and trusting them, but an important one nonetheless.
We didn't have much money when I was a kid, and we still could go on vacation, learn music, etc. because my mother really counted every cent. I don't know how to put that in words, but what could have been a worry (Oh my God, we don't have enough money) turned into a skill (OMG, all the things we can do with little money) and I like that. It has made me a part of who I am, the fact that I consider myself rich, that I don't envy richer people, that I don't care having a big house or a big car, etc. (as I try to explain that to you, I realize that I should go further on that road and be even less attached to material belongings).
So, for me, it is important that books remain in good shape for as long as possible (a lifetime ?), for instance, or that music instruments aren't treated like toys ... And I would like them to respect my own values also, as I do live here too.
But I probably ask too much on them, or at least too soon.
Thank you again for all your words and pieces of advice.
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
Thank you so much for all your messages - they've really been helpful. Thank you for reminding me that there is a difference between understanding something and being able to act accordingly. Sincerely.
I'm really not a big materialistic person. Actually, it's not really about things themselves (after all, they're only here for us to use them and not the other way around), it's more about respecting the people who have made them, the stuff who's been used to make them, the work my husband and I had to do to buy them, and also the fact that we are lucky to have all this in our lives and houses, the luxury we live in.
This is probably too abstract for them to grasp. I guess that, on the other hand, this is also about me. Not wasting is an important value for me, probably not as important as respecting kids and giving them time and space to grow, and trusting them, but an important one nonetheless.
We didn't have much money when I was a kid, and we still could go on vacation, learn music, etc. because my mother really counted every cent. I don't know how to put that in words, but what could have been a worry (Oh my God, we don't have enough money) turned into a skill (OMG, all the things we can do with little money) and I like that. It has made me a part of who I am, the fact that I consider myself rich, that I don't envy richer people, that I don't care having a big house or a big car, etc. (as I try to explain that to you, I realize that I should go further on that road and be even less attached to material belongings).
So, for me, it is important that books remain in good shape for as long as possible (a lifetime ?), for instance, or that music instruments aren't treated like toys ... And I would like them to respect my own values also, as I do live here too.
But I probably ask too much on them, or at least too soon.
Thank you again for all your words and pieces of advice.
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
seccotine_ch
Hi again
I'm re-reading all your messages (re-re-reading, should I say) and I really would like to re-re-tell you how grateful I am about your answers. I'm so glad that there is such place as this list - or, rather, as your houses and families and hearts - where kids are so 'rightly' (like in music, I mean) considered.
In these times where all the 'Super Nannies' are so successful on broadcasting, newspapers, school boards and in the mind of people, it is like finding a spring of fresh water.
The positive energy it brings into my house and family and heart and life is invaluable.
T H A N K Y O U
Helen
I'm re-reading all your messages (re-re-reading, should I say) and I really would like to re-re-tell you how grateful I am about your answers. I'm so glad that there is such place as this list - or, rather, as your houses and families and hearts - where kids are so 'rightly' (like in music, I mean) considered.
In these times where all the 'Super Nannies' are so successful on broadcasting, newspapers, school boards and in the mind of people, it is like finding a spring of fresh water.
The positive energy it brings into my house and family and heart and life is invaluable.
T H A N K Y O U
Helen
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:22 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:
they'll draw away from you and your values. You'll be creating a
negative association with you and the value you want them to value!
The pathway to others valuing what we do is for us to
1) live our values joyfully because they're important to us
2) minimize the impact of our choices on those around us. Others
shouldn't have to suffer for something they don't yet believe in.
3) treat others (and their needs and values) with respect.
(That last ties people into mental knots when they think their
children value chaos or punching their sister in the face ;-) Those
aren't values. The first: I think most kids just don't care so it
looks like they value chaos. And the second isn't a value but a poor
technique to meet a need when the child need help finding a better way!)
Of course that pathway doesn't lead directly to others adopting our
values. But it removes the obstacles. They might adopt our values if
they see value in them for themselves. (And if they have good
feelings associated with our values, if they see the joy it brings to
our lives, then they're more likely to adopt them.) But at least they
will respect our need to keep those values because they respect us.
resentment that they don't see the world the same way (yet). It
sounds like your mother said essentially "Look at how far we can make
this little bit of money go! Isn't that cool!" rather than "You don't
appreciate the value of money and how hard it is for us to make it!
Look at this waste!"
Do you think the second approach would have made you want to joyfully
stretch your money as far as you can?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So, for me, it is important that books remain in good shape for asAnd the more you try to *make* them respect your values, the more
> long as possible (a lifetime ?), for instance, or that music
> instruments aren't treated like toys ... And I would like them to
> respect my own values also, as I do live here too.
they'll draw away from you and your values. You'll be creating a
negative association with you and the value you want them to value!
The pathway to others valuing what we do is for us to
1) live our values joyfully because they're important to us
2) minimize the impact of our choices on those around us. Others
shouldn't have to suffer for something they don't yet believe in.
3) treat others (and their needs and values) with respect.
(That last ties people into mental knots when they think their
children value chaos or punching their sister in the face ;-) Those
aren't values. The first: I think most kids just don't care so it
looks like they value chaos. And the second isn't a value but a poor
technique to meet a need when the child need help finding a better way!)
Of course that pathway doesn't lead directly to others adopting our
values. But it removes the obstacles. They might adopt our values if
they see value in them for themselves. (And if they have good
feelings associated with our values, if they see the joy it brings to
our lives, then they're more likely to adopt them.) But at least they
will respect our need to keep those values because they respect us.
> it's more about respecting the people who have made them, the stuffThen approach that joyfully for yourself rather than holding
> who's been used to make them, the work my husband and I had to do
> to buy them, and also the fact that we are lucky to have all this
> in our lives and houses, the luxury we live in.
resentment that they don't see the world the same way (yet). It
sounds like your mother said essentially "Look at how far we can make
this little bit of money go! Isn't that cool!" rather than "You don't
appreciate the value of money and how hard it is for us to make it!
Look at this waste!"
Do you think the second approach would have made you want to joyfully
stretch your money as far as you can?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lori
Hello Helen,
I have a feeling that this is may raise some dander, but here is my response to the issue of taking care of things.
Children in our two countries have so much more than most in the world. It is amazing if you stop to think about it. We are the parents of seven. We were in a two bedroom college apartment when our fourth child was born. We made the decision while we were dating to have me stay at home the entire time that we would be raising children. My husband never did choose to finish his degree, but at no time did we really do without. There was a nine month time would we only had a motorcycle for transportation, but we made it work. Never have we gone into debt for anything other than a house that we bought way below market. I tell you all this to say that we have chosen for our children to be respectful of things that we have. The older four had a better grasp of this, but they all have been very good with recognizing that the things we have are a privilege, not a right.
Too often we give our children more than they are able to appreciate. For example, our five girls all enjoyed playing with Barbies. When I felt that they could be trusted to take good care of them, I allowed them to play with the dolls and camper that I had as a child. They loved playing with them. However, the youngest daughter had a spell when she could not handle them appropriately, so I put them up for a month. They still had theirs to play with. She really respected the toys and me more after that.
Something that I have used as a guide as we have raised our children is: Is this a behavior that I want to continue for two, or five years? That question has allowed us to not fret the small stuff, yet not allow the bigger things to be overlooked.
Enjoying the journey,
Lori in Michigan,
Wife of one,
mother of seven ages 13,15,17,19,21,24,25
grandmother of two
I have a feeling that this is may raise some dander, but here is my response to the issue of taking care of things.
Children in our two countries have so much more than most in the world. It is amazing if you stop to think about it. We are the parents of seven. We were in a two bedroom college apartment when our fourth child was born. We made the decision while we were dating to have me stay at home the entire time that we would be raising children. My husband never did choose to finish his degree, but at no time did we really do without. There was a nine month time would we only had a motorcycle for transportation, but we made it work. Never have we gone into debt for anything other than a house that we bought way below market. I tell you all this to say that we have chosen for our children to be respectful of things that we have. The older four had a better grasp of this, but they all have been very good with recognizing that the things we have are a privilege, not a right.
Too often we give our children more than they are able to appreciate. For example, our five girls all enjoyed playing with Barbies. When I felt that they could be trusted to take good care of them, I allowed them to play with the dolls and camper that I had as a child. They loved playing with them. However, the youngest daughter had a spell when she could not handle them appropriately, so I put them up for a month. They still had theirs to play with. She really respected the toys and me more after that.
Something that I have used as a guide as we have raised our children is: Is this a behavior that I want to continue for two, or five years? That question has allowed us to not fret the small stuff, yet not allow the bigger things to be overlooked.
Enjoying the journey,
Lori in Michigan,
Wife of one,
mother of seven ages 13,15,17,19,21,24,25
grandmother of two
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/23/2009 1:22 AM, seccotine_ch wrote:
for every time over the last 24 years that I told myself, "Relationship
first," I'd be a wealthy woman right now!
-pam
> Not wasting is an important value for me, probably not as important as respecting kids and giving them time and space to grow, and trusting them, but an important one nonetheless.Now you're on to something. It is about priorities. If I had a nickel
>
for every time over the last 24 years that I told myself, "Relationship
first," I'd be a wealthy woman right now!
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/23/2009 3:09 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> And the more you try to*make* them respect your values, the moreThere is some writing going on on my st
> they'll draw away from you and your values. You'll be creating a
> negative association with you and the value you want them to value!
>
Pam Sorooshian
Sorry - I'm frustrated with my new laptop - there is something I'm doing
that hits send when I don't mean to, and I can't figure out what it is.
Anyway - .....
There is some writing going on on my state list that is very very
negative about teenagers. The writer uses the term "Severe Reality
Adjustment (SRA)" and talks about how her kids think she is "out to
lunch" and are balking at doing what they are supposed to do, etc.
Lengthy complaints. The only response, so far, as been someone
describing how they handled the same thing in their teenager by refusing
to take her anywhere or do anything with her for a year, until she got
"self-motivated" to do the things they wanted her to do.
The sarcasm and mean-spiritedness in both of these posts hurts my heart.
I'm hearing a lot, lately, from teen's parents about how they need rules
and boundaries and parents shouldn't be afraid to enforce them and all
that.
The thing is, sometimes it seems to work. I know a family who was
strict, had lots of rules, the parents were very firm, there were clear
consequences and shame for breaking rules and, now, the grown kids have
good relationships with their parents and siblings and are raising their
own kids the same way. They still go to the same church and have very
clearly totally adopted their parents' values even though the parents
shoved them down their throats. I will say, they had lots of loving and
happy times in that family, too, as long as the kids toed the line.
So, I guess I want to be scrupulously accurate and say it IS possible
that parents can try to make kids respect their values and the kids
might draw away and act rebellious and then, later, return to those
values, especially when they have their own kids. After all, that is
what they know - that is what they have to fall back on when they become
parents.
That's not a good argument for doing it - for shoving our beliefs down
their throats. Isn't it better to live the best we can according to our
own beliefs? Should that not be enough of an attraction that our kids
will give significant consideration to what the observe in us, while
traveling their own path and coming to their own conclusions?
My kids have grown up to hold pretty nearly the same values as I do
(now) even though I've never tried to "teach" those values in any way,
shape, or form. I say "now" because my own values have changed, over the
years, too. It isn't like we're already fully formed and no longer
learning and developing ourselves, when we have kids. No - we're still
on our own paths, but once we have kids, we travel together. Some
parents act like they are, themselves, completely "done," and they are
trying to force their child to follow a predetermined path to reach the
same endpoint. It is like the old "Tickle Bee" game - where you dragged
a bee through a path using a magnetic wand. If your bee wavered at all,
it touched the edge of the path and you were punished with a loud buzz.
-pam
that hits send when I don't mean to, and I can't figure out what it is.
Anyway - .....
There is some writing going on on my state list that is very very
negative about teenagers. The writer uses the term "Severe Reality
Adjustment (SRA)" and talks about how her kids think she is "out to
lunch" and are balking at doing what they are supposed to do, etc.
Lengthy complaints. The only response, so far, as been someone
describing how they handled the same thing in their teenager by refusing
to take her anywhere or do anything with her for a year, until she got
"self-motivated" to do the things they wanted her to do.
The sarcasm and mean-spiritedness in both of these posts hurts my heart.
I'm hearing a lot, lately, from teen's parents about how they need rules
and boundaries and parents shouldn't be afraid to enforce them and all
that.
The thing is, sometimes it seems to work. I know a family who was
strict, had lots of rules, the parents were very firm, there were clear
consequences and shame for breaking rules and, now, the grown kids have
good relationships with their parents and siblings and are raising their
own kids the same way. They still go to the same church and have very
clearly totally adopted their parents' values even though the parents
shoved them down their throats. I will say, they had lots of loving and
happy times in that family, too, as long as the kids toed the line.
So, I guess I want to be scrupulously accurate and say it IS possible
that parents can try to make kids respect their values and the kids
might draw away and act rebellious and then, later, return to those
values, especially when they have their own kids. After all, that is
what they know - that is what they have to fall back on when they become
parents.
That's not a good argument for doing it - for shoving our beliefs down
their throats. Isn't it better to live the best we can according to our
own beliefs? Should that not be enough of an attraction that our kids
will give significant consideration to what the observe in us, while
traveling their own path and coming to their own conclusions?
My kids have grown up to hold pretty nearly the same values as I do
(now) even though I've never tried to "teach" those values in any way,
shape, or form. I say "now" because my own values have changed, over the
years, too. It isn't like we're already fully formed and no longer
learning and developing ourselves, when we have kids. No - we're still
on our own paths, but once we have kids, we travel together. Some
parents act like they are, themselves, completely "done," and they are
trying to force their child to follow a predetermined path to reach the
same endpoint. It is like the old "Tickle Bee" game - where you dragged
a bee through a path using a magnetic wand. If your bee wavered at all,
it touched the edge of the path and you were punished with a loud buzz.
-pam
On 4/23/2009 9:53 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
> On 4/23/2009 3:09 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
>
>> > And the more you try to*make* them respect your values, the more
>> > they'll draw away from you and your values. You'll be creating a
>> > negative association with you and the value you want them to value!
>> >
>>
>
> There is some writing going on on my st
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Lori" <aldrichnine@...> wrote:
Sometimes kids go through stages of less impulse control or less empathy than their usual - the usual for that child, I mean. That's a normal part of development. If a child has a favored toy - or pet, maybe - that's being harmed during a time like this, its certainly kind to take steps to see that whatever it is survives this stage intact. Those steps may include putting the toy away (or keeping the child away from the pet for a time). Parents being more present and aware can often work just as well, though.
Taking things away from people (of any age) doesn't necessarily teach respect for those things in the sense of valuing those things on an intrinsic level. It does create an economy of scarcity - which increases the value of those things in another sense. They are worth more, are more valuable, more desirable.
Taking things away from people doesn't necessarily gain their respect for the person doing the taking, either. It just as easily creates resentment - which may be concealed, out of fear of further reprisals. Taking kids' stuff away is a standard parenting ploy for controlling kids' behavior. From an unschooling perspective, its better to look for the reasons behind that behavior - what needs are being met? Are there other ways to meet those needs? Its often possible to help kids' find alternative ways to meet needs that are kinder to everyone.
Its possible for some parents to control kids' behavior to a greater or lesser extent, but its not possible to choose another person's values. Kids may or may not internalize parents' values, regardless of how they behave.
There are all sorts of behaviors kids grow out of in a year, much less five. It can be really helpful, with younger children especially, to learn as much as you can about typical behaviors of different ages - it can save a Lot of worry if your 2yo is running into walls, for instance, to know that its normal 2yo behavior ;)
That being said, some kids have bigger needs than others. Ray had really Big needs when he was younger - for attention, mainly, but also for big muscle movements. At one point George and I finally asked ourselves "assuming these needs are a part of Who He Is, do we really want to be arguing about these issues for the rest of his childhood?" That ended up being a big step in our lives, closer to radical unschooling (although we didn't know it at the time). Having decided that daily battles Weren't worth it, we started looking for other options, other solutions - and found many ways to meet his needs that didn't involve daily arguements and a sea of "nos".
When I was first trying to wrap my mind around unschooling, I found it helped a lot to step away from ideas like rights and priviledges where my relationship with my kids was concerned. Thinking about rights and privileges led me to be self-righteous about saying "no" and doing unkind things "for their own good". It helped more to think about ways I could be kinder, more thoughtful, more creative.
When Mo was little we used to go to the dollar store and fill a cart with everything she wanted - heap the cart high - with the understanding that we couldn't afford all those things right now. Most of the things in the cart Morgan was happy "owning" for the length of time it took to walk through the store. We'd get two or three things and put the rest back. That's not something that will work with everyone, for sure, but it was a solution that allowed both of us to feel a sense of abundance in our life.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>the youngest daughter had a spell when she could not handle them appropriately, so I put them up for a month. They still had theirs to play with. She really respected the toys and me more after that.********************************
Sometimes kids go through stages of less impulse control or less empathy than their usual - the usual for that child, I mean. That's a normal part of development. If a child has a favored toy - or pet, maybe - that's being harmed during a time like this, its certainly kind to take steps to see that whatever it is survives this stage intact. Those steps may include putting the toy away (or keeping the child away from the pet for a time). Parents being more present and aware can often work just as well, though.
Taking things away from people (of any age) doesn't necessarily teach respect for those things in the sense of valuing those things on an intrinsic level. It does create an economy of scarcity - which increases the value of those things in another sense. They are worth more, are more valuable, more desirable.
Taking things away from people doesn't necessarily gain their respect for the person doing the taking, either. It just as easily creates resentment - which may be concealed, out of fear of further reprisals. Taking kids' stuff away is a standard parenting ploy for controlling kids' behavior. From an unschooling perspective, its better to look for the reasons behind that behavior - what needs are being met? Are there other ways to meet those needs? Its often possible to help kids' find alternative ways to meet needs that are kinder to everyone.
>>I tell you all this to say that we have chosen for our children to be respectful of things that we have.************************************
Its possible for some parents to control kids' behavior to a greater or lesser extent, but its not possible to choose another person's values. Kids may or may not internalize parents' values, regardless of how they behave.
> Something that I have used as a guide as we have raised our children is: Is this a behavior that I want to continue for two, or five years? That question has allowed us to not fret the small stuff, yet not allow the bigger things to be overlooked.********************************
There are all sorts of behaviors kids grow out of in a year, much less five. It can be really helpful, with younger children especially, to learn as much as you can about typical behaviors of different ages - it can save a Lot of worry if your 2yo is running into walls, for instance, to know that its normal 2yo behavior ;)
That being said, some kids have bigger needs than others. Ray had really Big needs when he was younger - for attention, mainly, but also for big muscle movements. At one point George and I finally asked ourselves "assuming these needs are a part of Who He Is, do we really want to be arguing about these issues for the rest of his childhood?" That ended up being a big step in our lives, closer to radical unschooling (although we didn't know it at the time). Having decided that daily battles Weren't worth it, we started looking for other options, other solutions - and found many ways to meet his needs that didn't involve daily arguements and a sea of "nos".
>>they all have been very good with recognizing that the things we have are a privilege, not a right.**************************
When I was first trying to wrap my mind around unschooling, I found it helped a lot to step away from ideas like rights and priviledges where my relationship with my kids was concerned. Thinking about rights and privileges led me to be self-righteous about saying "no" and doing unkind things "for their own good". It helped more to think about ways I could be kinder, more thoughtful, more creative.
When Mo was little we used to go to the dollar store and fill a cart with everything she wanted - heap the cart high - with the understanding that we couldn't afford all those things right now. Most of the things in the cart Morgan was happy "owning" for the length of time it took to walk through the store. We'd get two or three things and put the rest back. That's not something that will work with everyone, for sure, but it was a solution that allowed both of us to feel a sense of abundance in our life.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
seccotine_ch
--- Pam Sorooshian wrote:
I'm also very surprised, here, to hear people talk about teenagers as if they were the enemies or, at least, some weird kind that needs a last 'tour de vis' (turn of the screw, but this is a litteral translation !) before letting them go into the adult's world. And people seem so satisfied when they say that, when they tell how they didn't let go ... This makes me very sad.
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
> I say "now" because my own values have changed, over theThis is so true ! I really wish to thank you here, because you're putting words on a feeling I had, something I noticed but failed to explain, and this is precisely that. And this is precisely why we can't tell our kids that we know better (though, sometimes, I do tell them that I've been here longer and this is why I see things a certain way). Don't you think that this is the core of it ?
> years, too. It isn't like we're already fully formed and no longer
> learning and developing ourselves, when we have kids. No - we're still
> on our own paths, but once we have kids, we travel together. Some
> parents act like they are, themselves, completely "done," and they are
> trying to force their child to follow a predetermined path to reach the
> same endpoint.
I'm also very surprised, here, to hear people talk about teenagers as if they were the enemies or, at least, some weird kind that needs a last 'tour de vis' (turn of the screw, but this is a litteral translation !) before letting them go into the adult's world. And people seem so satisfied when they say that, when they tell how they didn't let go ... This makes me very sad.
Helen in Geneva (Switzerland), mom of Sylvain (8), Cyrielle (6) and Circé (3)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:43 AM, Lori wrote:
beliefs espoused on the list but whether an idea will help someone
unschool.
Will it improve the relationship between you and your kids? Will it
bring greater joy into your lives? Will it be kind? Will it be
respectful of who they are?
I suspect when people begin on unschooling discussion sites, they
assume the set of unschooling parenting beliefs are held "just
because". Just because they seem right to those who write most often.
But why are the vocal list members more right about parenting than
other people? So new people offer their opinion, knowing they're
right, knowing they'll raise an outcry.
But what's offered is never new. Virtually everyone understands
conventional parenting practices, that is: where the parent is right
and the parent employs various techniques to move the child to the
parent's point of view.
Sometimes those methods "work". By work I mean the kids are
relatively kind and trustworthy away from their parents. Sometimes
those methods fail miserably: the kids are rude and sneaky when out
of sight of their parents.
It seems it's a crap shoot. It seems there's no rhyme or reason why
the methods sometimes work and sometimes don't. So, you do the best
you can and hope.
But it isn't a crap shoot. There are reasons why conventional
parenting sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. And it has to do
with whether the kids feel loved and respected for who they are. We
*think* we're being loving and respectful with conventional
parenting, but it's not until we step away from it that we can see
how incredibly disrespectful it is. It causes parents to treat
children in ways that they'd never treat a fellow adult. It requires
us to assume kids are some creature other than human, who will react
reasonably when treated in ways that would outrage adults.
What makes conventional parenting seem to work for some families is
1) the mix of personalities and 2) what *else* the parents do that
(inadvertently) counteracts the disrespect.
No parenting method can change personalities. Nothing will turn a
strong willed child into a compliant child so a parent can make
conventional parenting work. It's a recipe for disaster.
The "what else" the parents do is the key. It isn't the conventional
parenting that's working. It's the "what else." Unfortunately most
parents take the "what else" for granted and assume it's the
conventional methods that got the results.
That "what else" is what we discuss here. We discuss how to use the
principles of respect, kindness, joyful living to help our kids get
what they want in ways that are kind and respectful and safe.
respect if we're viewing their natural wonder with the world (which
includes manufactured products) as a problem. Our solutions will
focus on how we can get the kids to change to be decent human beings.
More respectful is to live our values rather than imposing them. If
we think we should live with less, we should live with less *for
ourselves*. When kids want something, rather than working on their
thinking as wrong and trying to change it, we can draw on our
techniques to find options *in addition to* buying something retail:
swaps, yard sales, thrift stores, trading and so on.
be a challenging adventure and for another family be a crushing
burden imposed on by forces they have no control over.
But if we begin from a mental position that the kids are wrong, and
we must get them to see the right way, it's going to be harder to be
loving and joyful and respectful.
What we can do instead is understand and respect kids points of view.
We don't need to agree, but understanding is huge. We can see through
their eyes why they might want a car instead of a motorcycle to go
somewhere when it's raining. We can see and understand and empathize
with why they sometimes feel they've lost something when a new baby
displaces them.
(The first chapter of How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So
Kids Will Talk is pretty good at helping parents see where they might
think they're responding reasonably but are actually telling their
kids they're wrong for feeling how they feel.)
she treated the older toys because she lost the use of them for a
month. That would look like respect for your wishes (and respect for
you) but it's not the same. And clarity of thought is important in
finding respectful ways to help kids.
There would be several respectful ways of approaching this. One would
be to let go and give them the toys to play with as they wanted.
Another would be allow them to borrow them with certain conditions.
This is part of real life. If we use something that belongs to
someone else, we don't get to treat it as our own. If we rent a car,
we can't spray paint it and expect the rental agency to be okay with
that. ;-) And if we loan kids something, we can take it back for a
bit without it being punishment. If it's approached with the attitude
that "This is something important to me and it's making me nervous.
What can we do about it?" And ultimately you can say "Look, this
isn't working out and it's making me uncomfortable. Let's put it away
for now and do something else like go get ice cream."
If kids feel respected, if they know mom puts energy into meeting
their needs, this will be heard much differently than it will to kids
who hear no a lot. When kids have to fight to get their needs met,
they are less respectful of others and others' things because they
feel disrespected. When they feel respected, they more easily grasp
being asked to respect another's boundaries.
will naturally grow out of.
That doesn't mean ignoring behavior. It means treating kids as though
they need help, not as though they need corrected and changed.
Better is to help them find *better* ways to meet their needs rather
than trying to correct them. Assume they're doing the best they can
with the information, development and skills they currently have.
Treat them as though their intent is to be good and they just can't
figure out a better way. They may intellectually know not to hit, for
instance, may intellectually know they should use words, but they may
not be able to put it into practice. They need some help, not
correction.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have a feeling that this is may raise some danderThe question to ask, though, isn't whether it goes against the
beliefs espoused on the list but whether an idea will help someone
unschool.
Will it improve the relationship between you and your kids? Will it
bring greater joy into your lives? Will it be kind? Will it be
respectful of who they are?
I suspect when people begin on unschooling discussion sites, they
assume the set of unschooling parenting beliefs are held "just
because". Just because they seem right to those who write most often.
But why are the vocal list members more right about parenting than
other people? So new people offer their opinion, knowing they're
right, knowing they'll raise an outcry.
But what's offered is never new. Virtually everyone understands
conventional parenting practices, that is: where the parent is right
and the parent employs various techniques to move the child to the
parent's point of view.
Sometimes those methods "work". By work I mean the kids are
relatively kind and trustworthy away from their parents. Sometimes
those methods fail miserably: the kids are rude and sneaky when out
of sight of their parents.
It seems it's a crap shoot. It seems there's no rhyme or reason why
the methods sometimes work and sometimes don't. So, you do the best
you can and hope.
But it isn't a crap shoot. There are reasons why conventional
parenting sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. And it has to do
with whether the kids feel loved and respected for who they are. We
*think* we're being loving and respectful with conventional
parenting, but it's not until we step away from it that we can see
how incredibly disrespectful it is. It causes parents to treat
children in ways that they'd never treat a fellow adult. It requires
us to assume kids are some creature other than human, who will react
reasonably when treated in ways that would outrage adults.
What makes conventional parenting seem to work for some families is
1) the mix of personalities and 2) what *else* the parents do that
(inadvertently) counteracts the disrespect.
No parenting method can change personalities. Nothing will turn a
strong willed child into a compliant child so a parent can make
conventional parenting work. It's a recipe for disaster.
The "what else" the parents do is the key. It isn't the conventional
parenting that's working. It's the "what else." Unfortunately most
parents take the "what else" for granted and assume it's the
conventional methods that got the results.
That "what else" is what we discuss here. We discuss how to use the
principles of respect, kindness, joyful living to help our kids get
what they want in ways that are kind and respectful and safe.
> Children in our two countries have so much more than most in theWhile this is true, it won't help us treat our kids with kindness and
> world.
respect if we're viewing their natural wonder with the world (which
includes manufactured products) as a problem. Our solutions will
focus on how we can get the kids to change to be decent human beings.
More respectful is to live our values rather than imposing them. If
we think we should live with less, we should live with less *for
ourselves*. When kids want something, rather than working on their
thinking as wrong and trying to change it, we can draw on our
techniques to find options *in addition to* buying something retail:
swaps, yard sales, thrift stores, trading and so on.
> There was a nine month time would we only had a motorcycle forAttitude is huge! Attitude can make the same situation for one family
> transportation, but we made it work.
be a challenging adventure and for another family be a crushing
burden imposed on by forces they have no control over.
But if we begin from a mental position that the kids are wrong, and
we must get them to see the right way, it's going to be harder to be
loving and joyful and respectful.
What we can do instead is understand and respect kids points of view.
We don't need to agree, but understanding is huge. We can see through
their eyes why they might want a car instead of a motorcycle to go
somewhere when it's raining. We can see and understand and empathize
with why they sometimes feel they've lost something when a new baby
displaces them.
(The first chapter of How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So
Kids Will Talk is pretty good at helping parents see where they might
think they're responding reasonably but are actually telling their
kids they're wrong for feeling how they feel.)
> However, the youngest daughter had a spell when she could notI doubt she respected you more. She may have been more aware of how
> handle them appropriately, so I put them up for a month. They
> still had theirs to play with. She really respected the toys and
> me more after that.
she treated the older toys because she lost the use of them for a
month. That would look like respect for your wishes (and respect for
you) but it's not the same. And clarity of thought is important in
finding respectful ways to help kids.
There would be several respectful ways of approaching this. One would
be to let go and give them the toys to play with as they wanted.
Another would be allow them to borrow them with certain conditions.
This is part of real life. If we use something that belongs to
someone else, we don't get to treat it as our own. If we rent a car,
we can't spray paint it and expect the rental agency to be okay with
that. ;-) And if we loan kids something, we can take it back for a
bit without it being punishment. If it's approached with the attitude
that "This is something important to me and it's making me nervous.
What can we do about it?" And ultimately you can say "Look, this
isn't working out and it's making me uncomfortable. Let's put it away
for now and do something else like go get ice cream."
If kids feel respected, if they know mom puts energy into meeting
their needs, this will be heard much differently than it will to kids
who hear no a lot. When kids have to fight to get their needs met,
they are less respectful of others and others' things because they
feel disrespected. When they feel respected, they more easily grasp
being asked to respect another's boundaries.
> Something that I have used as a guide as we have raised ourAnd that idea could lead parents to try to correct behavior that kids
> children is: Is this a behavior that I want to continue for two, or
> five years? That question has allowed us to not fret the small
> stuff, yet not allow the bigger things to be overlooked.
will naturally grow out of.
That doesn't mean ignoring behavior. It means treating kids as though
they need help, not as though they need corrected and changed.
Better is to help them find *better* ways to meet their needs rather
than trying to correct them. Assume they're doing the best they can
with the information, development and skills they currently have.
Treat them as though their intent is to be good and they just can't
figure out a better way. They may intellectually know not to hit, for
instance, may intellectually know they should use words, but they may
not be able to put it into practice. They need some help, not
correction.
Joyce
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amflowers71
Meredith, would you mind sharing some specific examples of what Rays needs were at that time, what he used to do to meet them (that caused all the nos), and the alternatives you used to work through it? It helps to hear real life examples of needs, behaviours and alternatives.