[email protected]

Hello all,

My 12 yo ds has been a military history buff for about 3 years now. He reads, researches, draws, writes and watches dvds on anything about wars and weaponry. He has learned so much (vocabulary, writing, spelling, research, history, etc.) through this interest, which is why we love unschooling.

To help him with this interest, we've gone to the Nat'l Air & Space Museum in DC several times and to its extension, the Udvar-Hazy Museum, the National Marines Corps Museum and other places here in VA. (We live in Northern VA, near Washington, DC.)

My concern is, when his siblings or the rest of the family want to do something else, he is always the first to protest. Like last weekend, it was his younger brother's birthday, and 8 yo ds wanted to celebrate by going to the Cherry Blossom Festival in DC. Ds 12 voiced his displeasure, even though he had no choice about the matter because it wasn't his birthday.

This happens quite regularly, even though we try to be fair (ie. take turns) with all our dc's requests to do activities or visit places based on their interests. He is like the killjoy in the family who prefers to do only the things he is interested in -- which he has a lot of time doing at home. Our primary care physician even went so far as to suggest mild Asperger's Syndrome because of his preoccupation with this interest.

Even when he was a preschooler, his interests on certain things would be quite long-lasting. First, it was Thomas the Tank Engine, then dinosaurs, and now military history. I think these are all wonderful things. I just wish he would be more flexible or understanding about the interests of other members in the family. And quite frankly, when he comes along with us, like he had to, to celebrate his younger brother's birthday at the Cherry Blossom Festival, he ended up enjoying himself. It's just his initial protests that are driving me crazy.

Has anyone experienced this with their kids? Would appreciate any advice.

Thanks,

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 Ds 12 voiced his displeasure, even though he had no choice about the matter because it wasn't his birthday.


-=-=-=-=-=-
Why did he not have choice?
Could he had not chosen to stay at home? 
Could he had gone to the Museums with someone while you were at the cherry blossom festival ( I love the Cherry Blossom!!!!)
Could you have sat down to listen to him and what he wanted and what you could do so at least he felt heard and had a choice, even if it was to stay home watching some war/military movies while you all went?
Could he had gone to a friend's house?
I don't understand why he did not have a choice.


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Johnston

I definitely experience this with my child who was diagnosed with pdd-now and possibly aspergers. I don't have any real advice bit wanted to let u know that someone else has similar concerns. My concerns are a little more involved as it seems no matter how supportive I am, my son is still chronically not concerned with others feelings. He is also extremely bright and will enjoy himself despite some initial complaint ( seems to be his general mood unless he is doing what he wants in that moment.

All my best--Kelli
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 6, 2009, at 9:00 PM, <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:

Hello all,

My 12 yo ds has been a military history buff for about 3 years now. He reads, researches, draws, writes and watches dvds on anything about wars and weaponry. He has learned so much (vocabulary, writing, spelling, research, history, etc.) through this interest, which is why we love unschooling.

To help him with this interest, we've gone to the Nat'l Air & Space Museum in DC several times and to its extension, the Udvar-Hazy Museum, the National Marines Corps Museum and other places here in VA. (We live in Northern VA, near Washington, DC.)

My concern is, when his siblings or the rest of the family want to do something else, he is always the first to protest. Like last weekend, it was his younger brother's birthday, and 8 yo ds wanted to celebrate by going to the Cherry Blossom Festival in DC. Ds 12 voiced his displeasure, even though he had no choice about the matter because it wasn't his birthday.

This happens quite regularly, even though we try to be fair (ie. take turns) with all our dc's requests to do activities or visit places based on their interests. He is like the killjoy in the family who prefers to do only the things he is interested in -- which he has a lot of time doing at home. Our primary care physician even went so far as to suggest mild Asperger's Syndrome because of his preoccupation with this interest.

Even when he was a preschooler, his interests on certain things would be quite long-lasting. First, it was Thomas the Tank Engine, then dinosaurs, and now military history. I think these are all wonderful things. I just wish he would be more flexible or understanding about the interests of other members in the family. And quite frankly, when he comes along with us, like he had to, to celebrate his younger brother's birthday at the Cherry Blossom Festival, he ended up enjoying himself. It's just his initial protests that are driving me crazy.

Has anyone experienced this with their kids? Would appreciate any advice..

Thanks,

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:

> My concern is, when his siblings or the rest of the family want to do something else, he is always the first to protest. Like last weekend, it was his younger brother's birthday, and 8 yo ds wanted to celebrate by going to the Cherry Blossom Festival in DC. Ds 12 voiced his displeasure, even though he had no choice about the matter because it wasn't his birthday.

******
I have a problem with the statement "he had no choice about the matter because it wasn't his birthday". WHY didn't he have a choice. Did you have time in the days leading up to the event to come up with another plan for DS12? Couldn't he have stayed home or done something else? Could you have made the trip more appealing to him in some way? Why didn't he have a choice?
=====================================================================


> This happens quite regularly, even though we try to be fair (ie. take turns) with all our dc's requests to do activities or visit places based on their interests. He is like the killjoy in the family who prefers to do only the things he is interested in -- which he has a lot of time doing at home.

******My oldest son is quite often like this. He usually voices his concerns the loudest and as if they are the only opinions in the house. He is quick to say no, a lot. Some people are more adventerous than others. Some people enjoy tagging along to activities and some do not. I don't see a problem with that. Are you insisting that you always have to be together?
====================================================================

Our primary care physician even went so far as to suggest mild Asperger's Syndrome because of his preoccupation with this interest.

******My husband is preoccupied like you describe, maybe even more! He has a hard time not jumping into an interest head first, devouring every little bit of knowledge he can get his hands on, and driving me absolutely insane with it! (and I mean that lovingly with a smile on my face). He is an amazing person, who is amazingly intelligent in ways that I am not. I am his complete opposite. I am scatter brained and skim books soaking in only what I need to get by. He has Asperger's no more than I have ADD. It's just part of who we are. Sometimes I wonder if we'd be different if people didn't try to label us and tell us that something was wrong with us.
====================================================================

> Even when he was a preschooler, his interests on certain things would be quite long-lasting. First, it was Thomas the Tank Engine, then dinosaurs, and now military history. I think these are all wonderful things. I just wish he would be more flexible or understanding about the interests of other members in the family.

******Stop wishing he were different. I would honor him right where he is at this moment. We can't force children to be flexible or understanding of others needs. But you can show him that you are understanding of his.
====================================================================

And quite frankly, when he comes along with us, like he had to, to celebrate his younger brother's birthday at the Cherry Blossom Festival, he ended up enjoying himself. It's just his initial protests that are driving me crazy.

******I hear that you a frustrated. However, I am not seeing anything that can't be changed with some creative problem solving.
====================================================================

-Heather

[email protected]

<< I don't understand why he did not have a choice. >>

Because ds 8 loves his older brother and wanted the whole family to be with him to celebrate his birthday. We've always done this when it comes to birthday celebrations in the family. When ds 12 wanted to celebrate his birthday by visiting the National Marine Corps Museum for the 2nd time, 16 yo dd and I enjoyed it the first time when we went together as a family before his birthday, but we did not particularly relish having to go a 2nd time. Not being military history buffs, once was enough for us. But since it was ds 12's birthday, we all went as a family because he wanted us all to be with him.

Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust or change to better suit the needs of each family member? I am open to suggestions, especially since I am still learning the ropes of unschooling and peaceful parenting.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> I don't have any real advice bit wanted to let u
> know that someone else has similar concerns.

Thanks for sharing, Kelli, and thanks for your support -- I really appreciate it.

> My concerns are a little more involved as it
> seems no matter how supportive I am, my son
> is still chronically not concerned with others feelings.

I looked up pdd at wikipedia and understand what you mean. It sounds like you are a supportive and loving mom, who is trying her best. And yet, I understand how difficult it can be when your son is not able to comprehend others' feelings.

> He is also extremely bright and will enjoy himself
> despite some initial complaint.

Sounds like my ds. According to another doctor, he doesn't exactly fit the criteria for Asperger's except for this intense preoccupation on military history and some lack in social skills. So we are trying to work on both -- the former, by offering new things and asking him to try it just for a short while (like reading aloud from a book or watching a dvd that doesn't have to do with military history and telling him that he doesn't have to continue listening or watching if he doesn't like it -- though, most of the time, he ends up enjoying it) -- and we respect his choice if he does not want to continue listening or watching, as long as he tries it even just a little.

Is that all right? Would that be the unschooling / peaceful parenting way to handle this situation -- or not? I am still learning and open to other suggestions.

As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any thoughts on this as well?

Thanks,

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Heather,

Thank you so much for your reply.

> WHY didn't he have a choice?

Yes, Alex had the same question, and this was my answer: (Sorry to repeat it here if you already read it in my post to her.)

Because ds 8 loves his older brother and wanted the whole family to be with him to celebrate his birthday. We've always done this when it comes to birthday celebrations in the family. When ds 12 wanted to celebrate his birthday by visiting the National Marine Corps Museum for the 2nd time, 16 yo dd and I enjoyed it the first time when we went together as a family before his birthday. But we did not particularly relish having to go a 2nd time, even if it WAS his birthday. Not being military history buffs, once was enough for us. But since it was ds 12's birthday, we all went as a family. We just thought of it as a sacrifice to do for love of him because he wanted us all to be with him.

Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust or change to better suit the needs of each family member? I am open to suggestions, especially since I am still learning the ropes of unschooling and peaceful parenting.

> Could you have made the trip more
> appealing to him in some way?

Yes, we passed by the FDR Memorial and took pictures, since it was our 1st time, and since we knew ds would be interested because of FDR's role in WWII. Then, ds 8 wanted to do some Japanese crafts in the craft tent offered by the Junior Rangers. Ds 12 ended up enjoying it as well, making a paper Japanese lantern and an origami leaping frog.

> My oldest son is quite often like this. He usually voices his
> concerns the loudest and as if they are the only opinions in
> the house. He is quick to say no, a lot.

You have described my ds 12 so accurately!

> Some people are more adventerous than others. Some people
> enjoy tagging along to activities and some do not. I don't see
> a problem with that.

THANK YOU for making me see things in this light. I didn't realize that this could be what ds goes through whenever new things come up. And thanks for letting me know that ACCEPTANCE is key -- that, following your example, I don't always have to see it as a problem.

> Are you insisting that you always have to be together?

No, not really -- only on birthday celebrations. But are you suggesting that we don't have to celebrate as a family? That would take some getting used to for all of us, since we've always thought of birthday celebrations as a family affair -- you know, being there for your loved one on his special day.... Same for Christmas, Thanksgiving -- you know -- the big holidays.

> He has Asperger's no more than I have ADD. It's just part of
> who we are. Sometimes I wonder if we'd be different if people
> didn't try to label us and tell us that something was wrong with us.

Again, thanks for pointing this out! Yes, I wish we could do away with labels and just accept each other lovingly or supportively, without having to *fix* things, or see differences are problems. It sounds like you and your husband do that with each other, and I think that's wonderful.

> Stop wishing he were different. I would honor him right where
> he is at this moment.

Wow, thank you for this powerful reminder!

> We can't force children to be flexible or
> understanding of others needs. But you can show him that you
> are understanding of his.

YES!!! And by my example, hopefully, he will learn be more understanding of others' needs.

Thank you for taking the time to help me with this situation, Heather -- I really appreciate it!

Shelley


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any thoughts on this as well?

-=-=-=-=-=-
If you mean a group of boys who needs to learn better social skills and are bundled together and to have a teacher "teach" them social skills I find this to be a very bad idea.
Kids learn social skills from observing those around him specially his family members ( parents)
By someone, like you his mom, being next to him and guiding him in social situations when he has a hard time with it.
By him observing you and his dad in social interactions.
How on earth is he going to learn in a group full of kids are not going to emulate good social skills?
Maybe you doctor thinks he needs that because he is "homeschooled"?
Maybe the doctor thinks he would "learn" better social skills by being in an enviroment like school?
I think schools are NOT a good place to learn good social skills.

 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Is that all right? Would that be the unschooling / peaceful parenting way to handle this situation -- or not? I am still learning and open to other suggestions.

 -=-=-=-=-
First start by getting out of you mind and vocabulary the idea that there is NOT a choice.
There are always choices, usually more than 2 or 3.
Don't start by saying your child had no choices. He could have chosen to not go to his brother's birthday celebration.
His brother may have been hurt by it and that is something you could have pointed out without blame but as information.
You could have brainstormed the outing with your son and even asked him if he had a solution after you presented him with the facts.

Well got to go maybe i will be able to finish this post but I don;'t know when so I will send it anyway...


Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

missalexmissalex

-- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any thoughts on this as well?

I have seen a group like this do wonders for a cool little 6 year old boy I used to know. It was a play group for younger kids. When there was a problem, the therapist would help the kids understand what went wrong. This particular kid, fascinating to me as an adult, was boring the snot out of other kids by going on and on about things they weren't interested in. The therapist helped him notice the clues that showed they weren't interested, and helped him put together a list of various things the other kids WOULD want to do/talk about. The therapist did not tell him to never pursue these "boring" interests, just consider his audience. Yes, this kid was in school, but I think it could be similar to learning to have a better time with neighborhood kids or the local playgroup. I'm not saying you SHOULD do it. I just wanted to let you know that it was a positive experience for him. At the time I wished there was a group like that for me! :) I would definitely want to offer it as a choice. Of course it could be useless, but it could also be a seasoned professional saying and doing the exact same things you would say if you had a lot more parenting experience.

Alex
mama to Katya, 22 mos

[email protected]

> He could have chosen to not go to his brother's
> birthday celebration. His brother may have been
> hurt by it and that is something you could have
> pointed out without blame but as information.
> You could have brainstormed the outing with your
> son and even asked him if he had a solution after
> you presented him with the facts.

Oh, good point! Boy, I am so not used to doing this. And yet, it makes so much sense. Thanks for bringing this up. I will definitely make a point of doing this more often.

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Void

I disagree, but not completely. I think it depends a lot on how the
class is run. And some kids may need more than even a thoughtful,
attatched parent can provide.

My oldest daughter struggled with basic social skills. She still has
more trouble than mostfiguring out social cues. She really needs it
spelled out and from someone other than me. When she was about 8 we
found a flyer for a social skills class. I hadnever heard of it. I
talked to her about it and we called. I asked a lot of questions.
Weboth felt satisfied that it might be fun. She tried it and really
liked it. The women (college students) that ran it were wonderful.
There was discusion and role play. It was very thoughtful and the
women were guides not teachers filling empty pitchers. She was
actually sad when it wasover as she really liked one of the guides.
She was the only undisgnosed child in the group. She was the most
socially adept, which was helpful for her as she got to help guide.
They would discuss different ways to interact and how others might
react. This was great for my dd who really did want to fit in and
learn to work with people.

Faith

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 7, 2009, at 11:15 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...
> wrote:

> As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him
> join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any
> thoughts on this as well?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> If you mean a group of boys who needs to learn better social skills
> and are bundled together and to have a teacher "teach" them social
> skills I find this to be a very bad idea.
> Kids learn social skills from observing those around him specially
> his family members ( parents)
> By someone, like you his mom, being next to him and guiding him in
> social situations when he has a hard time with it.
> By him observing you and his dad in social interactions.
> How on earth is he going to learn in a group full of kids are not
> going to emulate good social skills?
> Maybe you doctor thinks he needs that because he is "homeschooled"?
> Maybe the doctor thinks he would "learn" better social skills by
> being in an enviroment like school?
> I think schools are NOT a good place to learn good social skills.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
> http://polykow.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> If you mean a group of boys who needs to learn better social
> skills and are bundled together and to have a teacher "teach"
> them social skills I find this to be a very bad idea.

I had my doubts about it, too.

> Kids learn social skills from observing those around him
> specially his family members ( parents). By someone, like
> you his mom, being next to him and guiding him in social
> situations when he has a hard time with it. By him observing
> you and his dad in social interactions.

These were my thoughts, too. Thanks for the validation.

> How on earth is he going to learn in a group full of kids
> are not going to emulate good social skills?
> Maybe you doctor thinks he needs that because he is
> "homeschooled"?

I think that may be part of the reason.

> Maybe the doctor thinks he would "learn" better social skills by
> being in an enviroment like school?

Yes, he does. Of course, I told him this was out of the question.

> I think schools are NOT a good place to learn good social skills.

That's exactly what I said. That's why he recommended the social skills
group instead.

Thanks for sharing what you think -- that it would simply be a waste
of time for my ds to join such a group. Even though I had my doubts
about the group, I initially thought it might help because I am an
introvert by nature, and so is my husband.

I would like to be more of a *people-person* because I see its advantages,
but unfortunately, it doesn't come naturally me. And I don't want ds to go
through the disadvantages we've gone through as introverts.

Don't get me wrong -- I know there are advantages to being an introvert
-- like finding nourishment and rejuvenation through solitude, being
comfortable with oneself when alone, etc.

But it's also good to be comfortable and at ease with other people. And
I thought that he might be able to learn that from the social skills group.

Do you really think he will be able to learn that from dh and I? If so,
I would be more than happy not to register him in the group because
that would mean less expense for us and less driving time.

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelli Traaseth

***As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him
join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any
thoughts on this as well?***

What does your son want? Have you asked him if he'd like that?


Kelli~

www.ourjoyfullife.blogspot.com

swissarmy_wife

We just thought of it as a sacrifice to do for love of him because he wanted us all to be with him.

******I don't feel it is appropriate to choose the "sacrifices" of others. A lack of choices can lead to resentment and more objections.
===================================================================

Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust or change to better suit the needs of each family member?

******The problem with family traditions is that some people in the family won't always see the value of tradition. Some like new and different. Some are very sentimental. I think it is important to try and meet the needs of both children. It can be difficult, yes. But it's not impossible.
====================================================================

> No, not really -- only on birthday celebrations. But are you suggesting that we don't have to celebrate as a family? That would take some getting used to for all of us, since we've always thought of birthday celebrations as a family affair -- you know, being there for your loved one on his special day.... Same for Christmas, Thanksgiving -- you know -- the big holidays.

******I think the giving idea that the birthday child can control another person because it is their birthday is not realistic. What if you had offered to take the birthday boy to the cherry blossom festival alone and had cake and ice cream as a family later in the evening? This is the thought that popped into my head, i'm sure there are more options.
====================================================================

swissarmy_wife

> As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any thoughts on this as well?

******
How does your son feel about his social skills? Has he come to you with concerns? Or is it your concerns?

If he feels that his social skills are fine, then putting him in a class designed to change him against his will could be very damaging. However, if he has concerns and would like to be there, then the situation and outcome could be very positive for him.
=======================================================================

Debra Rossing

> But are you suggesting that we don't have to celebrate as a family?
Can you separate the events? Have cake and ice cream at home as a family
then have a special event chosen by the birthday person that is open to
everyone if they choose to come along. If you invited all the neighbors
to come to a party, you wouldn't expect everyone to come - some might
not be available that day/time, some might not like barbecue, some might
come to the party but bring their own vegetarian option (to eat and
share). Maybe a change in the expectation of what constitutes
"Celebrating as a family" would help.

Also, sometimes it can be helpful for transitioning to bring along a
favorite item or two - maybe get your DS(12) an Army surplus backpack
that he can keep a couple books and whatever else is easily portable in
that he can bring along on these sorts of ventures. That way, if he
chooses, he can find a corner to just read his favorite "aircraft of
WWII" book while others make origami cranes. Because it sounds not so
much like he doesn't like the proposed activity but rather that the
transition from his 'comfort zone' to a new activity (even something
he'll probably like) is the hard part, the automatic no. If he can bring
along part of the 'comfort zone' to make the transition easier, that
might be helpful for everyone.

Deb R


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The Coffee Goddess

When I was a kid, my brother and I were 5 years apart and so never had the same friends or interests, so to make a birthday party more fun for the non-birthday sibling, we always invited a friend for that sibling, too--That might make it more fun to your son if he had a friend to hang out with, run around with, do their own thing together while still "celebrating" his brother's birthday by being in attendance.....

Dana

--- On Wed, 4/8/09, Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...> wrote:

From: Debra Rossing <debra.rossing@...>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Question about ds's intense interests
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, April 8, 2009, 6:44 AM

> But are you suggesting that we don't have to celebrate as a family?
Can you separate the events? Have cake and ice cream at home as a family
then have a special event chosen by the birthday person that is open to
everyone if they choose to come along. If you invited all the neighbors
to come to a party, you wouldn't expect everyone to come - some might
not be available that day/time, some might not like barbecue, some might
come to the party but bring their own vegetarian option (to eat and
share). Maybe a change in the expectation of what constitutes
"Celebrating as a family" would help.

Also, sometimes it can be helpful for transitioning to bring along a
favorite item or two - maybe get your DS(12) an Army surplus backpack
that he can keep a couple books and whatever else is easily portable in
that he can bring along on these sorts of ventures. That way, if he
chooses, he can find a corner to just read his favorite "aircraft of
WWII" book while others make origami cranes. Because it sounds not so
much like he doesn't like the proposed activity but rather that the
transition from his 'comfort zone' to a new activity (even something
he'll probably like) is the hard part, the automatic no. If he can bring
along part of the 'comfort zone' to make the transition easier, that
might be helpful for everyone.

Deb R


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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mastercam.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> What does your son want? Have you asked him if he'd like that?
> Kelli~

Good point. No, I haven't yet. I will.

Thanks,

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> That might make it more fun to your son if he had a
> friend to hang out with, run around with, do their
> own thing together while still "celebrating" his
> brother's birthday by being in attendance.....
>
> Dana

Thanks for the suggestion. The thing is, younger ds is attached to his older brother (we only have 3 kids -- dd 16, ds 12 and ds 9 -- sorry, I keep writing 8, when he's already turned 9), and he will feel bad that older ds is spending time with his friend rather than with him on his birthday. But like you ladies recommended, I think it's best to hold a family meeting and brainstorm how we can go about celebrating birthdays without forcing anyone to make a sacrifice and still upholding the interests of other family members

Thanks,

Shelley

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I have seen a group like this do wonders for a cool little 6 year old boy I used to know. It was a play group for younger kids. When there was a problem, the therapist would help the kids understand what went wrong. This particular kid, fascinating to me as an adult, was boring the snot out of other kids by going on and on about things they weren't interested in. The therapist helped him notice the clues that showed they weren't interested, and helped him put together a list of various things the other kids WOULD want to do/talk about. The therapist did not tell him to never pursue these "boring" interests, just consider his audience. Yes, this kid was in school, but I think it could be similar to learning to have a better time with neighborhood kids or the local playgroup. I'm not saying you SHOULD do it. I just wanted to let you know that it was a positive experience for him. At the time I wished there was a group like that for me! :) I would
definitely want to offer it as a choice. Of course it could be useless, but it could also be a seasoned professional saying and doing the exact same things you would say if you had a lot more parenting experience

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Why couldn' the parents be with this kid in social situations and do the same?
What if the parents also helped this child find friends of ALL ages that are interrested in the same stuff this child is?
You are a comparing mainstream parented kid in school. Unschooling parents need to be there present to guide their child in social situations specially if they do need their help navigating  thru them.
There is no reason to have to get you child fixed by a professional if a parent that knows and loves this child can be there as a guide/buffer/ model.

What did this above parent tell this child? You need to  go to therapy to learn to get along with other kids?
THis is a group so you leanr to behave better with kids your age?
Did this child get the feeling there was something wrong  with himself? or just something not right?
If a parent is not willing to be there present and guide/help/partner with his/her child than this parent should not be unschooling.
 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Do you really think he will be able to learn that from dh and I? If so,
I would be more than happy not to register him in the group because
that would mean less expense for us and less driving time.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

You may have to be willing to put yourself out there. If not than you can ask you child what he thinks about it.
If it is something he would like to TRY and see if he likes it and if it helps him or it is fun.
But even if you are an introvert you can still go with your son to social gatherings like homeschool groups and
instead of being socializing yourself you can stay right next to him ( or very close by) to help him out when he needs help.
Even introverts know how to "behave" appropriately in social situations.
And if he is an introvert too then he is one. You are not going to change that right?
You can still model politness, mindfullness towards others right?


 
Alex Polikowsky
http://polykow.blogspot.com/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingmn/
 







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The Coffee Goddess

  >>When ds 12 wanted to celebrate his birthday by visiting the National
Marine Corps Museum for the 2nd time, 16 yo dd and I enjoyed it the
first time when we went together as a family before his birthday, but
we did not particularly relish having to go a 2nd time.  Not being
military history buffs, once was enough for us.  But since it was ds
12's birthday, we all went as a family because he wanted us all to be
with him.

Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust
or change to better suit the needs of each family member?  I am open to
suggestions, especially since I am still learning the ropes of
unschooling and peaceful parenting.>>

Could you have all gone to DC and he and dad, or he and his best bud, or he and Grandma (is there another history buff your group of family and friends?) gone to the museum while the rest of you went shopping or to the park or to the zoo?  Then afterwards you could meet back up for dinner and cake at a favorite restaurant with everyone?  Something like this is usually how we do birthdays...Knowing that you love him but don't have the same interests as him is fine information to have.  My son wanted to go to the movies this year for his birthday, because he knew his friends really liked movies, and he wanted his party to fun for them....so he picked the movie they would all like to see the most, (but that I had no interest in seeing) and he and his dad took all the kids while I stayed home and got ready for the "party" part that followed at our house later, with ice cream cake and all that ;)

Dana





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Pam Sorooshian

Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust
> or change to better suit the needs of each family member? I am open to
> suggestions, especially since I am still learning the ropes of
> unschooling and peaceful parenting.>>
>
>

If taking him to the museum is sort of a birthday present to him, then
it doesn't matter if the whole family goes along - it is the "museum"
that is the attraction, not being there with the family. Maybe you could
all do something else for his birthday celebration day, and give him, as
a birthday present, a gift certificate for a trip to the museum (to be
taken there by one person willing to do that).

If it is the joint family celebration of his birthday that is the point,
then I would encourage him to choose to do something that everyone will
enjoy doing with him. If he doesn't care to do that, then people should
have a choice whether or not they want to go along.

I really like to play laser tag, but Rosie and Roxana don't much like
it. I could ask them if they'd go along with it as a birthday present to
me, and they might say yes. But they might not (Rosie got physically ill
when she went to play laser tag, claustrophobia combined with the stress
of people jumping out in the dark and shooting at her), they might ask
me to please pick something else to do for my birthday, if I want our
whole family to go along. I'd pick something else and arrange laser tag
for a time when Rosie had something else to do.

-pam

Meredith

--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
>> Is this a family tradition you think we should adjust or change to better suit the needs of each family member?
********************

Its always a good idea to revisit family traditions in light of the individual personalities in your family - otherwise traditions can turn into chores. That doesn't help nurture relationships, and nurturing relationships is probably the motivation behind your traditions in the first place.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
>>
> As for the social skills, the doctor recommends that we have him join a social skills group for boys, ages 9-12. (He's 12.) Any thoughts on this as well?
*******************************

It depends a whole lot on the class *and* what his real needs are. If he tends to be introverted, putting him in a situation when he doesn't have the liberty to honor his own needs - for space, maybe, or for time to observe before interacting - is going to do more harm than good.

It might be a good idea to help him find some tools for transitioning more gently - easing in to new situations rather than jumping in with both feet. For example, for awhile we would bring a portable dvd player with us to social events so that my dd (now 7) could watch a movie if she wanted. She might sit and watch her movie for the whole event, or watch for awhile and then join in, or play for awhile and then go watch her movie. It gave her some control over how much she felt she "had" to interact - without the dvd player she would simply hide and refuse to interact at all.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], <hunnybunnies5@...> wrote:
>> I would like to be more of a *people-person* because I see its advantages,
> but unfortunately, it doesn't come naturally me. And I don't want ds to go
> through the disadvantages we've gone through as introverts.

There's a difference between being introverted and lacking social skills per se, although they often run together bc of the way most of us are "socialized". There's actually a whole separate set of skills that help introverts be social adept. Those skills tend not to be developed when introverts are "pushed" to socialize.

Having tools to ease into social situations can be a valuable skill for introverts to develop - a couple posts have mentioned that already. Realizing that introverts need time to observe is also important - extroverts learn about social situations by diving in to the middle of them, introverts learn by watching and listening and "getting a feel" for things, and Then getting involved. Knowing that's a real strategy, and not merely "hanging back" can help an introvert be more comfortable with his or her own process.

> But it's also good to be comfortable and at ease with other people.

Introverts become comfortable over time - that's not something that changes with better social skills, its innate. It can be helpful for introverts to learn to ape the manners of extroverts as a "mask" of sorts, but for introverts the "mask" aspect is sort of important - it helps maintain that all important sense of separation.

Learning social skills can be a helpful way of transitioning, if and when your son feels ready to do that, but the skills themselves won't automatically make him more comfortable with other people if he's really introverted.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Heather Burditt

This particular kid, fascinating to me as an adult, was boring the snot out
of other kids by going on and on about things they weren't interested in.
The therapist helped him notice the clues that showed they weren't
interested, and helped him put together a list of various things the other
kids WOULD want to do/talk about. The therapist did not tell him to never
pursue these "boring" interests, just consider his audience.



******So in other words, the therapist aided the child in being more like
the others. I don't like this idea much at all, especially if the child
isn't asking for help. Why is it the kid who stands out and who is the most
interesting is the one they try to coerce into sameness?

============================================================================
==========================



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[email protected]

> I don't feel it is appropriate to choose the "sacrifices" of others. A
> lack of choices can lead to resentment and more objections.

Oh, yes, good point.
===================================================================

> I think giving idea that the birthday child can control another person
> because it is their birthday is not realistic.

I never saw it in this light before. Thanks for pointing this out. While growing up, it was simply taken for granted in my family that the birthday person was king or queen for the day, and we just had to do what s/he wanted (within reason, of course). Like the birthday person got to choose the game we'd all play, or the restaurant we'd all eat in to celebrate, etc., and if we didn't like it, sorry. We'd get our turn when our birthday rolled around.

==========================================================================

> What if you had offered to take
> the birthday boy to the cherry blossom festival alone and had cake and ice cream
> as a family later in the evening? This is the thought that popped into my head,
> i'm sure there are more options.

Yes, that would've been a good idea. Thanks for suggesting. I see now how we should go about this problem. Having grown up the above way, I need to stretch my mind and see things from different perpspectives. Thanks for helping!

Shelley



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[email protected]

Alex P. and Faith,

> Why couldn' the parents be with this kid in social situations and do the same?
> What if the parents also helped this child find friends of ALL ages that are
> interrested in the same stuff this child is?

> Unschooling parents need to be there present to guide their child in social
> situations specially if they do need their help navigating thru them.
> There is no reason to have to get you child fixed by a professional if a parent
> that knows and loves this child can be there as a guide/buffer/ model.

That's true also. But I have to admit, sometimes, I feel inadequate and
think that the *experts* might do a better job. You'll probably say -- but who
knows your child best -- you, the parent, or the expert? Of course, I know
him best. But the expert may have some skills that I don't, which may help
my child.

> What did this above parent tell this child? You need to go to therapy to learn
> to get along with other kids?
> This is a group so you learn to behave better with kids your age?
> Did this child get the feeling there was something wrong with himself?
> Or just something not right?

All good points. Yes, this is the tricky part -- how not to make
ds feel that there's something wrong with him when talking about the need
for therapy. Any thoughts / suggestions?

Faith, you had written:

> When she was about 8 we found a flyer for a social skills class.
> I had never heard of it. I talked to her about it and we called.

What did you tell your dd so that she was open to joining the class and
did not feel like there was something in her that needed to be fixed?
Please share!

> If a parent is not willing to be there present and guide/help/partner
> with his/her child then this parent should not be unschooling.

Strong words. Should it really be an all or nothing deal?

Shelley

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