yelenakaplan

Another question I have is about bedtimes as we are also on the opposite side of most
people. I CAN'T regulate my kiddo's sleep even if I wanted to. For the most part it's all
good, she has short sleep cycles that last a few days, then catches up with great long
stretches of sleep. She does go to sleep in the middle of the night very often (midnight or
so), takes her nap around 5 pm sometimes. Other days she goes to sleep very early and
kind of by accident, when I don't even expect her to. I still nurse her to sleep everytime,
she doesn't fall asleep by herself yet. The nights when I'm totally spent, however, we have
problems. Some evenings I can tell she's exhausted but really fights any attempts to be
put to bed. These are the times I don't know what a radical unschooler would do. I know
what I do -- 1) go to bed myself and my hubby plays on the computer with her on her non
tired nights 2) deal with po'd tired kiddo who requires constant attention at a time of day
when I'm not a really nice person anymore.

She's 2.5 and I used to really try and make her go to sleep on a schedule when she was
younger, probably up to about 1.5 -- she cut out her naps very early on (needs total dark
and quiet or be completely exhausted sleep) and I felt the need to keep them in, read all
the 'expert' sleep books, etc. This is at the core of the issue as I lost track of what her
actual tired state is in lieu of a schedule.

After discovering radical unschooling, reading on this group, your website, and Sandra's
group about not scheduling bedtimes we went in the opposite direction thinking that
eventually she'll find a rhythm that works for her. I haven't found a clear cut answer for
kids who would stay awake till they fall down unless the parent does something like
actually put them to bed.

The opposite direction has worked out all right, but definitely not perfect. We're night
owls, so it really didn't affect our evenings or mornings and for the most part she's now in
a good place sleep wise. However, I have no way of influencing (please insert appropriate
word for radical unschooling) her to sleep when she is tired, but not yet an overtired, wired
(she gets wired) little ball of unfocused energy. Turning off lights tips her off that I'm
going to try to get her to bed. She probably still remembers the struggles from a year ago
and the times I've slipped inbetween. :( Putting on a movie, reading a book, any kind of
eye contact keeps her awake, interested, active, nursing, playing, nursing, bouncing while
nursing, then it's crying cuz I don't want to nurse on empty anymore as it really starts to
hurt. At what point is it ok, if ever, to turn off all stimulus despite VERY strong protests
from your child because you know they would sleep if the conditions stayed conducive for
more than 15 minutes? Tonight, after nursing reading for an hour in her room with the
lights on and she couldn't even stop bouncing to nurse anymore, I just turned the light off
and lay down next to her. She was really mad at me! I felt horribly guilty and like a bad
unschooler. She fell asleep in 10 min...

Also is it ok to limit nursing sessions to media free environments? Whenever she watches
a movie, she likes to nurse, whenever she nurses, she likes to turn on a movie -- sleep
and movie don't mix, nursing and sleep do... That seems to be the most hot topic between
me and her... We have a tv, 2 laptops which, she knows, can go anywhere, and my hubby's
computers in a 2 bedroom apartment, so it's always calling her name. She can watch
whenever she wants and we watch with her.


Thank you :)
Yelena

Bea

--- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"
<kaplanyel@...> wrote:
>she likes to nurse, whenever she nurses, she likes to turn on a movie
-- sleep
> and movie don't mix, nursing and sleep do... That seems to be the
most hot topic between
> me and her...

This might be totally obvious, or it might not work for you, but I
thought I'd offer just in case:

is there a way you can gradually turn the volume and the
contrast/luminosity down on the TV/computer when she is watching (and
if possible dim the lights, or turn the lights off) so it becomes more
and more conducive to sleep? This is how my dd (now 3.25) fell asleep
most nights (nursing) and still does (although she no longer nurses to
sleep.)



Bea

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"
<kaplanyel@...> wrote:
>> These are the times I don't know what a radical unschooler would
do. I know
> what I do -- 1) go to bed myself and my hubby plays on the computer
with her on her non
> tired nights 2) deal with po'd tired kiddo who requires constant
attention at a time of day
> when I'm not a really nice person anymore.

I have two kids who don't "settle down" to sleep and sometimes keep
odd hours - although maybe not as much as yours right now ;) Do what
you can during days/times when you're well rested to set yourself up
better for times when you're not. Like prepping food ahead of time so
you don't have to cook when you're tired. Its also helpful, when
she's not wanting to go to sleep, to try to avoid even wishing she
would go to sleep. I swear, kids can tell when you want them to sleep
no matter how hard you try not to let them know! So honestly try to
be okay with her not sleeping. Be honest about being tired Yourself,
but accepting of her. It will reduce your stress a little bit, and
that will help reduce *her* stress.

Try to keep in mind that she's little and this stage won't last
forever - even if it seems that way at times. Part of the problem, as
you mentioned, is she still remembers you trying to "get" her to
sleep and is resisting that. She has a really wonderfully powerful
capability for resistance! Someday that will be a good thing, even
though its making you very tired right now. Another part of the
problem is that she's at an age where its typical for a child's sleep
habits to shift around a bit. Its a transitional stage - and
transitions are often difficult. Make sure she has plenty to eat,
especially foods with lots of protein - makes sure You have plenty of
protein, too! and enough vitamins, especially B vitamins. That will
help keep you sane.

> Also is it ok to limit nursing sessions to media free environments?

Well, its not like the unschooling police are going to come and turn
your tv back on ;) More seriously, though, its something you can work
to negotiate. Do All movies ramp her up? We used to have "calm"
movies that Mo could eventually fall asleep to - and I could doze
through with half an eye open. Movies with mostly music rather than
talking were helpful for us. What about just music? Or a white noise
machine? Rather than say "this is the new rule" suggest it as an
experiment. Be honest - this isn't comfortable for you and you want
to try something else so that you can be a better mom.

> She was really mad at me! I felt horribly guilty and like a bad
> unschooler.

It's a good idea, at times like these when you just can't come up
with an option that's kinder to everyone, to say "I'm sorry". Its
even okay to say "I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but
I'm out of ideas. I'm sorry." It leaves the door open for more
communication later and it models some very important adult behavior.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

yelenakaplan

"Its also helpful, when she's not wanting to go to sleep, to try to avoid even wishing she
would go to sleep."

I haven't read the rest of this yet, but yes!!! she' knows exactly what I'm up to and those
times she falls asleep 'by accident' are the times I'm just zoning out nursing and she zonks
out LOL It was even like that when she was a week old and I was having a hard time
getting her to latch on to nurse. The only times she'd latch on well were the accidental
times when I was in the middle of readjusting to get into the 'right' position. I caught on
after a few times of great latches that whatever the 'accidental' latch is I need to let it
happen by itself :) Thanks for pointing that out! It was rolling around my brain
somewhere, but worry pushed it out.

Off to read the rest!
Yelena
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "yelenakaplan"
> <kaplanyel@> wrote:
> >> These are the times I don't know what a radical unschooler would
> do. I know
> > what I do -- 1) go to bed myself and my hubby plays on the computer
> with her on her non
> > tired nights 2) deal with po'd tired kiddo who requires constant
> attention at a time of day
> > when I'm not a really nice person anymore.
>
> I have two kids who don't "settle down" to sleep and sometimes keep
> odd hours - although maybe not as much as yours right now ;) Do what
> you can during days/times when you're well rested to set yourself up
> better for times when you're not. Like prepping food ahead of time so
> you don't have to cook when you're tired. Its also helpful, when
> she's not wanting to go to sleep, to try to avoid even wishing she
> would go to sleep. I swear, kids can tell when you want them to sleep
> no matter how hard you try not to let them know! So honestly try to
> be okay with her not sleeping. Be honest about being tired Yourself,
> but accepting of her. It will reduce your stress a little bit, and
> that will help reduce *her* stress.
>
> Try to keep in mind that she's little and this stage won't last
> forever - even if it seems that way at times. Part of the problem, as
> you mentioned, is she still remembers you trying to "get" her to
> sleep and is resisting that. She has a really wonderfully powerful
> capability for resistance! Someday that will be a good thing, even
> though its making you very tired right now. Another part of the
> problem is that she's at an age where its typical for a child's sleep
> habits to shift around a bit. Its a transitional stage - and
> transitions are often difficult. Make sure she has plenty to eat,
> especially foods with lots of protein - makes sure You have plenty of
> protein, too! and enough vitamins, especially B vitamins. That will
> help keep you sane.
>
> > Also is it ok to limit nursing sessions to media free environments?
>
> Well, its not like the unschooling police are going to come and turn
> your tv back on ;) More seriously, though, its something you can work
> to negotiate. Do All movies ramp her up? We used to have "calm"
> movies that Mo could eventually fall asleep to - and I could doze
> through with half an eye open. Movies with mostly music rather than
> talking were helpful for us. What about just music? Or a white noise
> machine? Rather than say "this is the new rule" suggest it as an
> experiment. Be honest - this isn't comfortable for you and you want
> to try something else so that you can be a better mom.
>
> > She was really mad at me! I felt horribly guilty and like a bad
> > unschooler.
>
> It's a good idea, at times like these when you just can't come up
> with an option that's kinder to everyone, to say "I'm sorry". Its
> even okay to say "I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but
> I'm out of ideas. I'm sorry." It leaves the door open for more
> communication later and it models some very important adult behavior.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>