Stacey Grimm

I think my point was completely missed.

I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.

I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me because
you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*

I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a proper
unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going to
[place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft or
food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having done
so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
outsider like I had an educational agenda.

~Stacey

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to use it as
> a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything with the
> desire of making it a teaching moment.

Erin

I absolutely think that inviting your child to take part in things
you are doing in your life (whether they may be educational or not)
is the RIGHT thing to do! Your kids will be experiencing so much by
being included in your everyday (or not so everyday) activities. I
think the most important thing to remember is that if it feels right
and makes everyone feel good then it is absolutely okay. My main
focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I want to be
treated. You definitely don't want to let the label of "unschooling"
make you do things differently than what feels right...trust your
instincts!

I am new to this list and I haven't read the previous posts, but I
wanted to encourage you that you are certainly on the right path if
you are desiring to include your kids in your daily activities. If
they want to participate that is great...and if not that is great
too :)

Erin

--- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
<taboulichic@...> wrote:
>
> I think my point was completely missed.
>
> I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
> Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
> the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
>
> I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me
because
> you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
> something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
> great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
> not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
>
> I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a
proper
> unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
> life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going
to
> [place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft
or
> food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
> do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
> experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having
done
> so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
> literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
> potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
> outsider like I had an educational agenda.
>
> ~Stacey
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> > I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to
use it as
> > a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything
with the
> > desire of making it a teaching moment.
>

k

Maybe the point others have been making has been completely missed.

Disagreeing is not flaming. I've never seen any flaming except from a rare
handful of newbies. People on these boards who have been unschooling a long
while (most of them way longer than me) may DISAGREE with part or all of a
post.

Long time unschoolers are volunteering time to help new unschoolers.
They're passing on what they've found to work. Experience is hard to argue
with. It's convincing. Meeting their kids in real life is even more
convincing. Seeing the trust in the relationships between the parents and
children in real life is even *more* convincing. I figure they just might
know what they're talking about.

There's several options to choose from when inquiring about unschooling (or
posting on an unschooling list) and some work better than others.

If someone says hey... "not quite" ask why and you could learn something.
Or if they say "hey not quite and here's why" you can ask for even more
clarification and you might learn something.

Even better (in my experience) if someone disagrees with your post, pretend
to yourself that it's not yours. Discussions are not geared toward
personalities. Instead they revolve around ideas.

Or don't post for a while and just lurk. I did like you and posted, was
disagreed with, and decided to quietly lurk for a time and read more before
I spoke anymore.

~Katherine






On 10/10/08, Stacey Grimm <taboulichic@...> wrote:

> I think my point was completely missed.
>
> I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
> Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
> the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
>
> I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me because
> you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
> something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
> great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
> not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
>
> I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a proper
> unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
> life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going to
> [place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft or
> food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
> do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
> experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having done
> so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
> literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
> potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
> outsider like I had an educational agenda.
>
> ~Stacey
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
> > I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to use
it as
> > a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything with
the
> > desire of making it a teaching moment.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

---------snip-----------

I think my point was completely missed.
----------snip-------
What I read and responded to was :
"Melt and Pour is a great craft and learning tool (hygene, science (solid, liquid), color theory, etc.) You definatly could incorporate learning about how soap in made traditionally and eventually results in the glycerine soap
you and your children can safely craft with. I have a shortened to the point explaination (on the "About Us" page under FAQ's at www.kissingmoons. com) on my website on how soap is made, History of Castille soap, what is in commercial soaps and how it is different from traditional handcraftred soap, etc if you would like to use that information. "
Whatever the point of posting that the suggestion was that you can use the making of glycerine soap as a tool for introducing ideas about hygiene, physical science, color theory and for introducing the history of castille soap and comparing the process used in making soap yourself versus the ivory soap you'd buy at the store.

David and I were just standing in the kitchen talking about why he makes soap or brews beer or fixes the car or why I knit or garden or bike. All of those things are about function. They are about getting something done. I bike to get to the store to buy milk or sherbet or frozen curly fries, or whatever, I knit because I enjoy the feel of the wool and the click of the needles and the calmness. David fixes the car because he likes to make it work better and run better and to keep it from falling apart. None of those things are done with the goal to learn something tangential to the point. That will happen. I have this fantastic book of knitted gansey patterns that talks alot about the history of the gansey and has pictures from the late 1800's of places in the UK where I've been which is kind of cool, 'cause the book was a gift when I lived in Albuquerque and had no plans of living in the UK. You will also get those wonderful McGyver moments where you
can use the knowledge you gained while fixing up the bike, or bringing soap to trace or using borax as a preservative to solve some other, seemingly unrelated, problem. But again, I don't garden to prepare myself to solve an as of yet unknown problem that I may find myself dealing with later down the road.

---------snip----------

I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
----------snip------------

They'll learn and not just do. It isn't possible to do and not learn, if not about the task at hand than about something else. Try it. Try doing something, even sleeping, and not learning. You'll wake up rested, maybe, and filled with the cobwebs of dreams and thoughts and plans for the day ahead. Making soap is full of learning. But it doesn't need to be a "learning opportunity".

I invite Simon and Linnaea to do stuff with me all the time, and, cooler still, they invite me to do stuff with them. My point wasn't about inviting their company when I engage in an activity I think they might enjoy. My point was that inviting a child to join in with you with a preplanned list of teaching bullet points that the activity should achieve isn't a way to facilitate a fun time hanging out making soap. It becomes a lecture and not an engaging thing to do. The other stuff will come up, maybe. Maybe you'll be snuggling up together reading Little House on the Prarie (I seem to recall some soap making mention) and the history will be related, and the experience will already be present, or maybe it won't. Life is long and learning is always happening, maybe the possibility for knowing about material sciences and going from liquid to solid will come up again and again and again. I make a lot of ice.

----------snip------------
I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me because
you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
--------------snip------------
But it was implied in the post that I responded to. It was suggested that the point of making glycerine soap was to impart all the tangential knowledge that soap making may touch on. The history of soap, the comparing and contrasting of large scale soap making versus homemade soap making, the science of liquids and solids, the theory of color, the hygiene potential.
Absolutely, though invite your kids to do lots of things. I spend a lot of time coming up with new things to invite Simon and Linnaea to do with me. And I don't press them if they say no. And the goal is, at least in some part, to pique their interest. I want to engage them, so I offer things that I hope will do so. Things that I want to do, as well.

--------------snip------------

I'm new to this, so please don't flame me!

------------snip------------
I'm not flaming you. Flaming, according to wikipedia is:

"Flaming is the hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users. Flaming usually occurs in the social context of a discussion board, Internet Relay Chat (IRC) or even through e-mail. An Internet user typically generates a
flame response to other posts or users posting on a site, and such a
response is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion,
and does not persuade others. Sometimes, flamers attempt to
assert their authority or establish a position of superiority over
other users. Other times, a flamer is simply an individual who believes
he or she carries the only valid opinion. This leads him or her to personally attack those who disagree. In some cases, flamers wish to upset and offend
other members of the forum, in which case they can be called "trolls." Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject."
On a discussion list like this the ideas, the words that are posted are going to be examined and discussed. I have no desire to hurt or upset you or anyone else on this list. I want to help others and be helped by others to understand and embrace unschooling. If someone comes here and talks about the educational potential of an activity there will probably be a discussion around the idea of doing something simply because of it's learning potential. However there may be very intense discussions defending the learning potential of the activities that children choose to engage in, like video games, or watching Spongebob Squarepants. I fully believe that Simon and Linnaea would learn alot about different things making soap. What I don't believe is that I can direct and limit their learning effectively when making soap. And I think if I tried I would suffocate a lot of the joy of the activity.

------------snip--------------

I worry that to be a proper
unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going to
[place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft or
food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having done
so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
outsider like I had an educational agenda.
------------snip--------------
I wouldn't want to be an unschooler if it left me feeling paralyzed about getting it right. I wouldn't want to be an unschooler if it felt like it was building walls between me engaging, playing, being with Simon and Linnaea. I don't think anyone here is chastizing anyone else for inviting their kids to join in the fun.

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com


> Schuyler <s.waynforth@ btopenworld. com> wrote:
> I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to use it as
> a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything with the
> desire of making it a teaching moment.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~I don't think anyone here is chastizing anyone else for inviting
their kids to join in the fun.~~

Absolutey! We encourage adults to make their lives as completely
accessible to their children as possible. Anyone who has read at this
list for more than, oh, five minutes would know that!

SO....we seem to have quite a few new folks this week and I'm going to
gently and kindly encourage you all to read for a week or two. Not as
a mandate. Just as a way for you to get your Unschooling Basics legs
under you.:)

Several of you are posting about things that will become common
knowledge if you read here for a little while and get a feel for the
kind of list this is and the kind of advice that is actively shared.

Arhives will give you the gist of it too. It is common for us to talk
about inviting children into our activities. It is common for us to
talk about how to make our lives and homes non-age discriminatory. It
is common for us to talk about sharing our lives with NO
teaching/learning agenda. It's ok to talk about it again and again,
but when you're new to a list it's nice to get a feel for it so you
aren't fumbling around stating the obvious and getting your feelings
hurt in the process.

We WANT our new members to stay and share the dialogue with us! That's
the whole point of the list.:) It will flow so much smoother if you
step into the party already in action, and listen for a little while
before posting.

Just a suggestion. Picture me sitting across the table from you
sipping some tea and smiling.

Ren

Kelly Lovejoy

-----Original Message-----
From: Erin <theburkemommy@...>



My main focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I want to be 

treated.



-=-=-=-




Better: my friend Robyn suggests that we treat our children the way THEY want to be treated.




~Kelly









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

I'm going to jump on the discussion for a moment, just because I
think something very vital is being missed.

Erin, no one is saying NOT to invite kids to join in on life. What is
being discussed is inviting them and then inundating them with a
bunch of knowledge that they either don't want or don't care about. A
parent can take the most fun outing and ruin it by filling it with
"Did you know..." or "The first soap was created 3000 years ago
by ...." The point is to share the world with them to the extent that
the child is curious. I only emphasize this because I know that *I*
am so very passionate about some things, but in the beginning of our
unschooling, I really ruined it for my children by filling the air
with stuff about them...it was all about what *I* knew. Thankfully
six months of deschooling led my son to feel strong enough to say
"MOM! We know you know this, let us have FUN." The girls were too
worried about my feelings to say anything, but they did start to tune
me out because I wasn't being respectful of their desires.

And no one is saying that it's not okay to share factoids, if it is
something one is truly excited about, if there is no teaching agenda,
and IF one is willing to be not be disappointed if the child couldn't
care less. Does that make sense?
I for one could spend hours talking about evolution and the
comparative anatomy of hominids at the ape exhibit at our zoo, and
the kids have long since gotten over that.

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com



On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Erin wrote:

> I absolutely think that inviting your child to take part in things
> you are doing in your life (whether they may be educational or not)
> is the RIGHT thing to do! Your kids will be experiencing so much by
> being included in your everyday (or not so everyday) activities. I
> think the most important thing to remember is that if it feels right
> and makes everyone feel good then it is absolutely okay. My main
> focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I want to be
> treated. You definitely don't want to let the label of "unschooling"
> make you do things differently than what feels right...trust your
> instincts!
>
> I am new to this list and I haven't read the previous posts, but I
> wanted to encourage you that you are certainly on the right path if
> you are desiring to include your kids in your daily activities. If
> they want to participate that is great...and if not that is great
> too :)
>
> Erin
>
> --- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
> <taboulichic@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think my point was completely missed.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
> > Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
> > the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
> >
> > I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me
> because
> > you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
> > something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
> > great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
> > not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
> >
> > I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a
> proper
> > unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
> > life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going
> to
> > [place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft
> or
> > food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
> > do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
> > experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having
> done
> > so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
> > literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
> > potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
> > outsider like I had an educational agenda.
> >
> > ~Stacey
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> > > I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to
> use it as
> > > a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything
> with the
> > > desire of making it a teaching moment.
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I was thinking about that as I cleaned out the freezer today. I was thinking about how it could be a teaching moment. I could invite Linnaea or Simon to help me deal with the frosty trays in our freezer having first researched the history of Frigidaire, which is the make of fridge in my house, so that I could lecture on the history of that company. I could talk about the ice houses that I've read about where in winter ice from a pond would be cut and stored nestled in hay in a dark and well insulated building so that there might be coolness and food storage on offer in summer. And then how ice boxes were the fantastic way of keeping things cool for everyone, not just those folks with access to an ice house and maybe I could talk about my vague recollections of A Tree Goes in Brooklyn having an ice man bringing ice up the stairs to their apartment. Those are interesting things, to me, this wanderings through the history and importance of keeping food
fresh and cool. And I could talk about that and how a lot of different kinds of food preparation are about keeping something from going bad, like smoking or curing meat (although the best beef is hung for a while before it is treated, or so I am led to understand), or making cheese and yoghurt. Some of those things Simon and Linnaea may already know, some of those little bits and bobs of information may have bubbled up into their lives through me or David or one of the other many routes that they have to information. I talk a lot, David does as well. There are lots of discussions about lots of things that happen in our lives, often as they are happening. Stories that are told when cooking or watching a show or going for a walk or cuddling up in bed. And I would have talked about something if Simon or Linnaea had helped to clean out the freezer. But it wouldn't have been staged. Maybe that is the point. It would have just been a conversation with both
sides giving and altering and moving from subject to subject without any known goal.

Anyhow, I finished cleaning out the freezer by myself. Linnaea went out to the new old car we bought last weekend and drove home this morning and she sat with a book on the warm black leatherette car seats with a smell that reminds me completely of my childhood and read. Simon ate an apple and watched some videos on youtube and David looked at all the rust points on the car that he wants to fix. They all learned the things that they wanted to in that moment and I enjoyed, as I always do, washing out the frosty freezer thinking thoughts and dwelling on memories of other freezers in my life. No one was sullied by my lesson plans to accompany cleaning out a freezer. And now you can open the ice drawer without using a foot for leverage (for those not familiar with the UK design of fridge, the freezer is usually on the bottom with the fridge section on the top, it isn't a big box with shelves, it's a box with drawers:
http://www.fridgemaster.co.uk/image.asp?ProductID=141).

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com



--------------------


I'm going to jump on the discussion for a moment, just because I
think something very vital is being missed.

Erin, no one is saying NOT to invite kids to join in on life. What is
being discussed is inviting them and then inundating them with a
bunch of knowledge that they either don't want or don't care about. A
parent can take the most fun outing and ruin it by filling it with
"Did you know..." or "The first soap was created 3000 years ago
by ...." The point is to share the world with them to the extent that
the child is curious. I only emphasize this because I know that *I*
am so very passionate about some things, but in the beginning of our
unschooling, I really ruined it for my children by filling the air
with stuff about them...it was all about what *I* knew. Thankfully
six months of deschooling led my son to feel strong enough to say
"MOM! We know you know this, let us have FUN." The girls were too
worried about my feelings to say anything, but they did start to tune
me out because I wasn't being respectful of their desires.

And no one is saying that it's not okay to share factoids, if it is
something one is truly excited about, if there is no teaching agenda,
and IF one is willing to be not be disappointed if the child couldn't
care less. Does that make sense?
I for one could spend hours talking about evolution and the
comparative anatomy of hominids at the ape exhibit at our zoo, and
the kids have long since gotten over that.

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlingliv es.blogspot. com/
http://startlingliv es365.blogspot. com

On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Erin wrote:

> I absolutely think that inviting your child to take part in things
> you are doing in your life (whether they may be educational or not)
> is the RIGHT thing to do! Your kids will be experiencing so much by
> being included in your everyday (or not so everyday) activities. I
> think the most important thing to remember is that if it feels right
> and makes everyone feel good then it is absolutely okay. My main
> focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I want to be
> treated. You definitely don't want to let the label of "unschooling"
> make you do things differently than what feels right...trust your
> instincts!
>
> I am new to this list and I haven't read the previous posts, but I
> wanted to encourage you that you are certainly on the right path if
> you are desiring to include your kids in your daily activities. If
> they want to participate that is great...and if not that is great
> too :)
>
> Erin
>
> --- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, "Stacey Grimm"
> <taboulichic@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > I think my point was completely missed.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational agenda.
> > Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something with
> > the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
> >
> > I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me
> because
> > you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
> > something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If yes
> > great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal anyway. If
> > not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
> >
> > I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a
> proper
> > unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in one's
> > life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm going
> to
> > [place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make [craft
> or
> > food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that if I
> > do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
> > experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having
> done
> > so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this. Instead I
> > literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear of
> > potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
> > outsider like I had an educational agenda.
> >
> > ~Stacey
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@ ...> wrote:
> > > I would be very wary of going into soap making with the desire to
> use it as
> > > a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into anything
> with the
> > > desire of making it a teaching moment.
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stacey Grimm

On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:

> Just a suggestion. Picture me sitting across the table from you
> sipping some tea and smiling.
>
> Ren

Totally unrelated to the subject, but coincidental enough to me at
least - I was just thinking about making myself some hot Thai tea this
morning before I sat down to check my email. I made coffee instead.
Fair Trade decaf.

/me sitting on the other side, smiling and sipping coffee

--
~Stacey

PS: Thanks for the encouragement and pointers. :-)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
<taboulichic@...> wrote:
>Instead I
> literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by fear
of
> potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look to an
> outsider like I had an educational agenda.

A better question to ask is if your kids suspect an educational
agenda. For some kids that's more important than others, for sure -
if you've homeschooled, for example, it may take longer for kids to
trust that there isn't an agenda lurking behind every suggestion
than if the kids were used to leaving school in the backpack when
they came home every day.

For this reason (in part) its often suggested that new unschoolers
live like they are on vacation for awhile. Do the sorts of fun
things families do when there's no expectation that anyone learn
anything. That give the whole family time to learn more about each
other as people and rebuild the relationships that school and/or
homeschool have damaged.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>> I was thinking about that as I cleaned out the freezer today. I
was thinking about how it could be a teaching moment.

Wow, Schuyler, that's the first time I ever skimmed one of your
posts! The moment I got to "ice houses" my eyes glazed over and I
wondered if there was still coffee left in the pot and did we have
*any* coco in the house?

I'm glad I found the last part about your real day and the kids
reading and eating apples... what a lovely snapshot, complete with
odors, ahhhhhh.

Mo and I spent the afternoon hanging around in the sewing studio,
she on the computer playing The Incredible Machine, which has kind
of quirky old dance music for background sound, and I trying to
contrive a curtain for my big round window. I'm trying to applique a
sun on one side and a moon on the other, all out of flimsy polyester
fabrics that don't cooperate without a lot of starch. Every now and
then Mo would call out "come see this one!" and I'd go look at the
fantastice "contraption" she'd created on the computer. They're
silly sorts of contraptions that include bombs and alligators and
lots of pulleys, much fun.

At some point we went back to the house (the studio is in an old
barn) for snacks and I had one of those smell-my-kid's-hair moments.
I often forget to do that, but I've been spending more time on RUN
and Sandra recommends that alot, so its on my mind. So my afternoon
smelled like starch and little girl and overheated polyester and
milky cereal and home-made spaghetti sauce and light machine oil. In
a little while my evening will probably smell of popcorn and juice
and little girl while Mo and I watch some cartoons, snuggled
together in the bed. George and Ray are off playing music so its a
girls night, here.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Erin

"Erin, no one is saying NOT to invite kids to join in on life."

Yes, after I read the posts I realized that! I was just a little too
quick to throw in my thoughts...oops :) As I said in my post--I
hadn't read the replies to her initial post, but I felt the urge to
throw in my thoughts on the "new topic" regarding whether or not she
should include her children in her activities.

Thanks for clarifying, though.

Erin

-- In [email protected], Melissa Gray
<autismhelp@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to jump on the discussion for a moment, just because I
> think something very vital is being missed.
>
> Erin, no one is saying NOT to invite kids to join in on life. What
is
> being discussed is inviting them and then inundating them with a
> bunch of knowledge that they either don't want or don't care about.
A
> parent can take the most fun outing and ruin it by filling it with
> "Did you know..." or "The first soap was created 3000 years ago
> by ...." The point is to share the world with them to the extent
that
> the child is curious. I only emphasize this because I know that
*I*
> am so very passionate about some things, but in the beginning of
our
> unschooling, I really ruined it for my children by filling the air
> with stuff about them...it was all about what *I* knew. Thankfully
> six months of deschooling led my son to feel strong enough to say
> "MOM! We know you know this, let us have FUN." The girls were too
> worried about my feelings to say anything, but they did start to
tune
> me out because I wasn't being respectful of their desires.
>
> And no one is saying that it's not okay to share factoids, if it
is
> something one is truly excited about, if there is no teaching
agenda,
> and IF one is willing to be not be disappointed if the child
couldn't
> care less. Does that make sense?
> I for one could spend hours talking about evolution and the
> comparative anatomy of hominids at the ape exhibit at our zoo, and
> the kids have long since gotten over that.
>
> Melissa
> Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
> Wife to Zane
>
> blog me at
> http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
> http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Erin wrote:
>
> > I absolutely think that inviting your child to take part in things
> > you are doing in your life (whether they may be educational or
not)
> > is the RIGHT thing to do! Your kids will be experiencing so much
by
> > being included in your everyday (or not so everyday) activities. I
> > think the most important thing to remember is that if it feels
right
> > and makes everyone feel good then it is absolutely okay. My main
> > focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I want
to be
> > treated. You definitely don't want to let the label
of "unschooling"
> > make you do things differently than what feels right...trust your
> > instincts!
> >
> > I am new to this list and I haven't read the previous posts, but I
> > wanted to encourage you that you are certainly on the right path
if
> > you are desiring to include your kids in your daily activities. If
> > they want to participate that is great...and if not that is great
> > too :)
> >
> > Erin
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "Stacey Grimm"
> > <taboulichic@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think my point was completely missed.
> > >
> > > I'm not suggesting going into something with an educational
agenda.
> > > Rather, I'm suggesting a parent invite a child to do something
with
> > > the parent. Just do, not necessarily learn.
> > >
> > > I'm not saying that a parent should say "Come do this with me
> > because
> > > you might learn a thing or two." I'm saying invite the kid to do
> > > something, allow him/her the opportunity to say yes or no. If
yes
> > > great! Interest might be peaked, but that isn't the goal
anyway. If
> > > not, well, that's fine too. *shrugs*
> > >
> > > I'm new to this, so please don't flame me! I worry that to be a
> > proper
> > > unschooler means to *not* initiate inclusion of one's child in
one's
> > > life. Is it ok, for example, to say to one's child, "Hey, I'm
going
> > to
> > > [place] to do [activity]. Wanna come?" Or "I'm going to make
[craft
> > or
> > > food item]. Care to join me?" It worries me because I fear that
if I
> > > do that and then come onto an unschooling list and offer my
> > > experiences having done that then I will be chastised for having
> > done
> > > so. I'm not trying to be mean or spiteful by asking this.
Instead I
> > > literally feel paralyzed from doing anything with my kids by
fear of
> > > potentially having the wrong intention, or that it might look
to an
> > > outsider like I had an educational agenda.
> > >
> > > ~Stacey
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@> wrote:
> > > > I would be very wary of going into soap making with the
desire to
> > use it as
> > > > a teaching moment. Then again, I'd be wary of going into
anything
> > with the
> > > > desire of making it a teaching moment.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Erin

True, but one way for me to determine how another human would want to
be treated is to think about how I would like to be treated by
another human.

I'm sorry I've come here and ruffled too many feathers with just one
little paragraph. Certainly not my intention. :)

Erin

--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy
<kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Erin <theburkemommy@...>
>
>
>
> My main focus is to make sure that I am treating my kids the way I
want to be 
>
> treated.
>
>
>
> -=-=-=-
>
>
>
>
> Better: my friend Robyn suggests that we treat our children the way
THEY want to be treated.
>
>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Erin" <theburkemommy@...>
wrote:
>
> True, but one way for me to determine how another human would want
to
> be treated is to think about how I would like to be treated by
> another human.

The catch is that children's perceptions can be pretty different
from adult perceptions. From an unschooling standpoint, that means
its really important to try to understand our kids' perspectives. It
helps us communicate better.

> I'm sorry I've come here and ruffled too many feathers with just
one
> little paragraph.

I didn't see any ruffled feathers. The purpose of this list is to
help people wrap their minds around the principles, philosophy *and*
nuts and bolts of radical unschooling - and all those things swirl
around together, part of the same thing. Figuring out how to handle
bedtime, for example, involves fostering communication, which
involves parents stretching our perceptions to include those of the
kids, which involves drawing on our personal principles.

That's what all this seeming nit-pickiness over words and phrases is
about - online like this, all we have are words to express the
swirling complexity of family interactions, so we tend to get very
specific about what they mean and how they're used.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)

Ren Allen

~~I'm sorry I've come here and ruffled too many feathers with just
one little paragraph.~~

Feathers weren't ruffled, trust me.;)
If they were, you'd know it!

This is part of the "read for a while" recommendation because this
list exists for the purpose of discussion. Discussion that questions
and examines and prods and clarifies. Quite often new folks don't
understand the nature of the list and when they get 8 or more posts
responding to some simple sentence or paragraph they are shocked.

Just remember, tons of responses doesn't mean anyone is ganging up, or
getting "ruffled", it's just that there are over 2,000 people reading
and a small percentage responding to your thoughts and writing. It
feels overwhelming sometimes.

Nobody is upset. Nobody is picking on anyone. The list is here for the
purpose of deeply examining exactly what we mean, how we think and
taking our mindfulness to a new level.

Ren

Schuyler

See, it's such a good thing that I don't make Simon and Linnaea follow some curriculum, I was thinking how inspired my freezer defrosting educational gambit was. I'm quite relieved, oddly, to find that what I may find engaging can bore someone else to ruminating about hot beverages. Much better to let other people's interests engage them than to force them to conform to my own.

Schuyler
http://www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----------






--- In unschoolingbasics@ yahoogroups. com, Schuyler <s.waynforth@ ...>
wrote:
>> I was thinking about that as I cleaned out the freezer today. I
was thinking about how it could be a teaching moment.

Wow, Schuyler, that's the first time I ever skimmed one of your
posts! The moment I got to "ice houses" my eyes glazed over and I
wondered if there was still coffee left in the pot and did we have
*any* coco in the house?

I'm glad I found the last part about your real day and the kids
reading and eating apples... what a lovely snapshot, complete with
odors, ahhhhhh.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

> Just remember, tons of responses doesn't mean anyone is ganging up, or
> getting "ruffled", it's just that there are over 2,000 people reading
> and a small percentage responding to your thoughts and writing. It
> feels overwhelming sometimes.

Hey and the other thing that's good about the small percentage "gang"
answering a lone post is that when we need to post a question that needs
LOTS of ideas or at least a bigger pool to choose from, it's a fantastic
benefit!

I think another part of the bafflement from newbies who gets lots of
responses is that the replies all sound so similar to the newbie because
there's a little learning curve to picking up on the ideas so that a newbie
can *see* the finer details that help unschooling so much.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]