Michele James-Parham

I wanted to get some thoughts from the other Radical Unschoolers on
sharing.

I've been going over how I feel about sharing and how that relates to
my son, his personal autonomy and property and treating him with the
same respect that I am shown by others concerning sharing my things.

I have posted on my blog about this with a few further thoughts and a
link to an article, which sums up exactly how I feel on the matter.
When you find time, I'd love for you to read them and then 'share'
your ideas and thoughts.

http://www.naturalattachment.com/wordpress/2008/09/06/sharing-is-caring/

michele
www.naturalattachment.net

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 6, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Michele James-Parham wrote:

> I've been going over how I feel about sharing and how that relates to
> my son, his personal autonomy and property and treating him with the
> same respect that I am shown by others concerning sharing my things.

I think the personal autonomy line of thought can lead into
encouraging selfishness. It's like the opposite side of the spectrum
of forced sharing. A balance between the two is a better place if
kids want to live in harmony with others.

I prefer to picture helping them get what they want in ways that are
safe and respectful of others.

At home, when there are kids coming over, you could talk about what
toys he'd like to share and what toys he would prefer not to have
other kids play with and then put those toys away.

When he's with others you can say "When you're done with that, it
seems like Godfrey would really like to play with it." And you could
help Godfrey find something that's even better in the meantime.

There's a brief page at Sandra's site:

http://sandradodd.com/sharing

You might try clicking links and see if you can find more.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michele James-Parham

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> I prefer to picture helping them get what they want in ways that are
> safe and respectful of others.
>
> At home, when there are kids coming over, you could talk about what
> toys he'd like to share and what toys he would prefer not to have
> other kids play with and then put those toys away.

yep! this is something that we have done before and have to do in
advance of certain friends coming over!

> When he's with others you can say "When you're done with that, it
> seems like Godfrey would really like to play with it." And you could
> help Godfrey find something that's even better in the meantime.

This is the route I default to and always have run with. I find that
if E is given those extra moments with the current object of obsession
he turns it over much sooner than if he feels like everyone is pushing
for him to give it up.

michele
www.naturalattachment.com

Joyce Fetteroll

I meant to add that wee little kids, can get the idea that if they
share they'll never get the object back so it's useful to reassure
them that the other child will eventually be done. (At least when
you're at home or out playing with toys meant for everyone (like a
library or hands on museum. Obviously when at someone's house that
may not be so! The other child may put the toy away not to be played
with! ;-)

Joyce

Julie

Dmitri's favorite book right now is about not sharing:
http://www.amazon.com/Its-MY-Birthday-Pat-Hutchins/dp/0688096638
I love it, too--no one tries to make the character share. :-)

The main thing I do regarding sharing is just try to ease social
situations and make Dmitri aware of options as much as he is open to
it. If we're at a crowded children's museum and he wants to play at a
particular station for a loooong time, I'll bring up the idea of
giving that guy over there a turn and coming back later. He's often
fine with that because he's often "that guy over there."

Or if he's playing with something and doesn't want to share, I'll
affirm what he's feeling ("you're busy with that right now") and
mention that he can give it to so-and-so when he's all done.

Only a couple of times another kid has started a tug of war with him,
and Dmitri got agitated. I got close and put my own hand on the
object in question so as to neutralize the force in either direction
and just said the same things I always do, but also affirming how the
other kid felt. "He really wants to play with that toy. You're busy
with it now. You can give it to him when you're ready."

I'm not sure if that was too intrusive, but my primary objective was
to help Dmitri through his agitation, and it seemed to work. Leaving
kids alone to work it out doesn't seem to work once Dmitri has crossed
a certain threshhold of fear.

Julie B
Dmitri, 3
Halloweenish baby on the way
http://www.whitehawk.org

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Michele James-Parham"
<michele@...> wrote:
>
> I wanted to get some thoughts from the other Radical Unschoolers on
> sharing.

First of all, what do you mean by "sharing"? That's a pretty
important question to ask yourself - its a word that's used really
darned broadly to mean anything from "take turns" to "imediately
relinquish to anyone who asks". I flat-out avoid the word wrt
children for that very reason and look for ways to communicate that
are more, well, useful! Like "can Iris have a turn?" or "are you
done with that? may Ray borrow it for a short time?"

> I've been going over how I feel about sharing and how that relates
to
> my son, his personal autonomy and property and treating him with
the
> same respect that I am shown by others concerning sharing my
things.

Joyce touched on this too - one of the ideas I'm seeing here and in
your article is an emphasis on "rights" and protecting those. Its
more helpful, from the perspective of fostering peaceful
relationships and partnerships in general, to think more in terms of
communication and win-win problem solving. So rather than
asking "Should I/he/we share?" - what's the situation? Who wants
what? How is everyone feeling? Is there someone who can be happy
with a different choice? Would someone like a snack? Are there other
factors to consider? Who's facilitating the negotiation? Does that
person need help? There's no one-size-fits-all solution.

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

Gillian Goddard

I loved responding on your blog Michele. Thanks for posting it here.
Gillian

Michele James-Parham

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
> First of all, what do you mean by "sharing"? That's a pretty
> important question to ask yourself - its a word that's used really
> darned broadly to mean anything from "take turns" to "imediately
> relinquish to anyone who asks". I flat-out avoid the word wrt
> children for that very reason and look for ways to communicate that
> are more, well, useful! Like "can Iris have a turn?" or "are you
> done with that? may Ray borrow it for a short time?"

> Joyce touched on this too - one of the ideas I'm seeing here and in
> your article is an emphasis on "rights" and protecting those. Its
> more helpful, from the perspective of fostering peaceful
> relationships and partnerships in general, to think more in terms of
> communication and win-win problem solving. So rather than
> asking "Should I/he/we share?" - what's the situation? Who wants
> what? How is everyone feeling? Is there someone who can be happy
> with a different choice? Would someone like a snack? Are there other
> factors to consider? Who's facilitating the negotiation? Does that
> person need help? There's no one-size-fits-all solution.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)
>


Most people (more mainstream at least) seem to equate sharing with
fair or equal time spent with/having something.
This initially was the issue I was trying to address, but it's hard
for me to address this with it not becoming a 'rights' issue.

But strictly looking at one child with one thing and then another
child comes along and shows an interest in that one thing...does child
A need a sense of obligation (learned or otherwise) to share that
thing in the name of partnerships/communication/win-win?

Though I am a very generous person with friends and strangers, it's
taken me some time to get to that point and it sure didn't happen in
childhood. I resented the moment anyone tried to force me to give
something up that was indeed mine and not public property or another
person's. My father liked to reinforce that idea by telling me just
how selfish I was. Now I am very much a communal person and have no
issues sharing, but it took me time to realize that there were people
out there who weren't keeping score and who didn't just take and take.

I don't feel as though it is my place or another parent's place to
force/insist on a relinquishment of anything a child owns --
especially in the name of keeping the peace. I see more harm in this
in the long run with teens and young adults growing up with very
little to no concept of personal ownership and who might find
themselves being taken advantage, but be too concerned about keeping
the peace than to stand up for themselves.

michele
www.naturalattachment.net

Michele James-Parham

Oh Gillian! I loved your thoughts and always love it when you leave
comments.

michele
www.naturalattachment.net

--- In [email protected], Gillian Goddard
<gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
>
> I loved responding on your blog Michele. Thanks for posting it here.
> Gillian
>

Professional Parenting

And another thought on sharing. When we ask a child to share something they are eating, they learn that when they give a part of it to another child, in the name of sharing, they don't get it back! (because the other child eats it). They may also continue that thinking, when we ask them to share a toy, that they might not get it back.

Judy Arnall, Peaceful Parenting Expert, Speaker and Author of "Discipline Without Distress: 135 tools for raising caring, responsible children without time-out, spanking, punishment or bribery" www.professionalparenting.ca Tele: (403) 714-6766 Email jarnall@... "Peace In The World Begins In The Home"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Michele James-Parham"
<michele@...> wrote:
>> But strictly looking at one child with one thing and then another
> child comes along and shows an interest in that one thing...does
child
> A need a sense of obligation (learned or otherwise) to share that
> thing in the name of partnerships/communication/win-win?

I think a sense of obligation is likely to undermine a sense of
partnership and shut down communication - like having a rule. If the
relationship and open communication are the "goals" rather than "who
gets the object" then there's a world of options. A sense of
obligation narrows those options.

> I don't feel as though it is my place or another parent's place to
> force/insist on a relinquishment of anything a child owns --
> especially in the name of keeping the peace.

I don't know how forcing or insisting can possibly "keep the peace"!
It sounds like a recipe for smoldering resentments at best.

That being said, in the evenings I'll sometimes ask Ray (14) if
he'll find something else to do for an hour so that Mo (7) can watch
tv downstairs while I go to sleep (I'm the working parent). In a
sense, he's relinquishing the tv in order to "keep the peace" - a
tired 7yo who needs to watch another hour of tv to wind down isn't a
fun person to be around. But there are times when he really wants to
watch whatever is on from 8-9. A new episode or a movie, usually. So
he'll tell me that and I'll look for another solution - we have
another tv, but its in the master bedroom where I and Mo both sleep
(and really there aren't any other rooms in the house - downstairs
is open and upstairs is bedroom). He's not obligated to give up the
tv, though, its one of the available options and we're always on the
lookout for more.

That's part of what I mean by partnership and communication. Its not
a question of "should Ray share the tv?" Its "hey, how much do you
really want to watch this show? would you be willing to do something
else or watch Discovery Channel so Mo can watch too? Mo, do you have
any other ideas? Would you like to snuggle with me in the bed or
tell stories?" Or maybe I'll decide I can fall asleep with the tv on
tonight. Options.

> Most people (more mainstream at least) seem to equate sharing with
> fair or equal time spent with/having something.
> This initially was the issue I was trying to address, but it's hard
> for me to address this with it not becoming a 'rights' issue.

Yup, that's why I stay away from the word "sharing" as much as
possible, especially when talking with other parents. The word is
just soooo loaded its hard to have a real conversation without
everything getting bogged down in weird moral imperatives. Yikes.

If another parent says "share" I'll ask "how?" or substitute or
suggest something different - "take turns" is usually an acceptible
alternative, and (happily) its not loaded in quite the same way. So
its easier to help children (and their parents) communicate
about "taking turns" - how is it going to happen and all that.
Negotiation is more implicit in "turn taking" for sure! That's my
goal when I'm interacting with others - to keep opening up
communication.

I find that a focus on communication often does "keep the peace" in
the sense that conflicts don't become as heated, feelings aren't as
likely to be hurt, and everyone (kids and parents) is more likely to
come away from the moment feeling okay. I'm not approaching the
moment from a desire to "keep the peace" per se, though. Its okay
for negotiation to be heated, for people to express strong feelings
it they need to do so!

> in the long run with teens and young adults growing up with very
> little to no concept of personal ownership and who might find
> themselves being taken advantage, but be too concerned about
keeping
> the peace than to stand up for themselves.

One of the things I've seen in my own kids is that by focusing on
communication and problem solving, they pick up those skills. Ray is
really good at problem solving unless someone is determined to "put
him in his place" bc he's a kid. Then I need to be the one to stand
up and say "excuse me, the Kid has something valuble to contribute,
here". When he knows that kind of support is available, Ray is
gracious, charming and a fantastic negotiator. When he's stuck
without that support for awhile he reverts to "typical teen" sorts
of strategies like resistance and defiance.

Mo's also good at problem solving in social situations - and again
it depends a lot on her knowing that no-one, kid or adult, is going
to run over the top of her bc she's younger. In either case, I,
personally, don't find it helpful to think in terms of rights or
even personal ownership. If I do I quickly become Mamma Bear
defending her cubs! Roooooaaaarrr! Ahem. Not helpful. Its more
helpful for *me* to stay focused on the communication aspect - and
if someone is shutting down "the Kid" or "the Little kid" that means
helping those kids to be heard. Mamma Bear roaring doesn't help that
very well ;)

---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 14)

bkind28

I've never pushed sharing as I don't believe I should let some random
person drive my car because she doesn't have one. I've had kids knock
on my door telling me my DS won't let them hold his
watergun/gameboy/stick or whatever and I ask what they have for him to
play with. I always felt other parents thought it wrong, glad I'm not
the only one. I am a little more traditional if he invites friends over
though...
Beth (mom to DS 12)

Joyce Fetteroll

On Sep 7, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Michele James-Parham wrote:

> Most people (more mainstream at least) seem to equate sharing with
> fair or equal time spent with/having something.

So the real question isn't should kids share but should parents make
time equal?

Often writing things out helps to clarify thinking. But until
thinking is clear, then the answers are going to be muddy.

> This initially was the issue I was trying to address, but it's hard
> for me to address this with it not becoming a 'rights' issue.

I think not when the parent's needs are pulled from the equation.

Kids don't want to hurt others but they also want their own needs
met. How can we help them do that?

When it's reduced to do this/don't do that (share/don't share, for
instance) rather than principles of getting needs met while
respecting others then it looks like a rights issue.

> But strictly looking at one child with one thing and then another
> child comes along and shows an interest in that one thing...does child
> A need a sense of obligation (learned or otherwise) to share that
> thing in the name of partnerships/communication/win-win?

Need, how? Where is the need coming from? Imposed by the parent?

> I resented the moment anyone tried to force me to give
> something up that was indeed mine and not public property or another
> person's.

But is that what an unschooling parent would do to a child? So your
question of whether kids should share doesn't come from an
unschooling perspective but in reaction to what was done to you as a
child.

Sometimes the old scripts have us so teed off that we do the total
opposite in retaliation. That's little better than blindly going
along with what we're told to do.

> I don't feel as though it is my place or another parent's place to
> force/insist on a relinquishment of anything a child owns --
> especially in the name of keeping the peace.

Is it part of unschooling philosophy to force a child to do something
they don't want to do?

Is it part of unschooling philosophy to insist a child has a right to
do whatever they want? I don't think the second is any more a part of
the philosophy than the first.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

And I very much appreciate your comments, Gillian, because it goes a long
way to illustrate that the interpretation of sharing changes from culture to
culture and that sharing itself is a cultural concept-- not universal. Not
even within the same country.

Like for instance, I grew up with the idea that nothing belonged to me
because I was a kid, and even now I have a hard time thinking that anything
is really mine. The other idea I was raised with is that material objects
aren't that important.

Those aren't facts. They're ideas, and the ideas can change from culture to
culture. Many people didn't grow up with the ideas I grew up with at all.

I think a lot of people see unschooling as a culture itself. In many ways,
it can be.

But here's one of those instances where we can see that unschooling reflects
the particular values of each family who is unschooling their children.
Sharing and giving are based on what we think about ownership. The level of
importance, the amount, the value, and all those things tie in with our
ideas about ownership.

Unschooling works well if, like Joyce and others have said, we see a
needs-based situation and respond according to the needs of those involved
right then, not hypothetically or in some other instance. Unschooling can
even be an opportunity to question how the values we live/d by as a child
and perhaps as an adult also help or don't help unschooling.

~Katherine





On 9/7/08, Gillian Goddard <gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
>
> I loved responding on your blog Michele. Thanks for posting it here.
> Gillian
> __
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gillian Goddard

Yup, having others take or borrow what we 'own' is really different
from culture to culture and family to family. I remember the first
time I met a Trinidadian woman who did not 'share' her clothing how
shocked I was. She is one of my best friends, is extremely generous
with her time, her money, her house, her car, but she doesn't feel
comfortable sharing clothing. She always says to me - don't forget I
grew up without sisters. I have been very 'boundaryless' with my
friends and my family - go into their fridge, look through their
jewelry, flip through their books - and most of them don't even blink
and even like it or do the same things with me. But of course when I
lived in the US during college I learned how to behave differently
and it was sometimes a struggle holding back from using things that
were not mine. Life got a lot easier when I moved into an
international dormitory and everyone there, including the USers,
behaved like me around their things.
My children have lived in both places but in South Miami Beach, where
we spend most of our time when in the US, the attitude is also very
very relaxed around things. We used to hang out in gangs at the
playground and on the beach and the toys, the food, the diapers and
wipes, and lots more were almost communal property. But there were
some boundaries with the children with toys or strollers. Especially
the younger children who were more interested in keeping a favourite
toy. Now that most of the children there are in school it is a bit
different because sometimes there is a standoffishness that never
existed before. It thaws after a while however. And then the tribal
way begins again.
I don't think that the way that we feel about our possessions and
whether they are for us to use, for others to use, and for how long
is only about caring for others. It also includes how we feel about
scarcity. And I am thinking that living my life in the generous way
that my parents lived - and live - their lives when I was small, will
give my children the opportunity to see in action a lack of intense
worry about how our possessions relate to our quality of life. When
my son was in sailing camp during the school vacation we ended up
with lots of discussions because within the car pool our car is the
oldest - not that old but we are in an economic boom here and
everyone seems to have a spanking new car - and we are the only ones
who live in an apartment. So the car pool talks in the car did
include perspectives on why I choose not to spend money on a new car,
and with my son on how come our home is older - which I love but
children sometimes like new homes - and how come despite those
seeming disadvantages that everyone still wants to come by us all the
time.
I see how these issues sometimes swirl around my children's heads.
My 3 year old daughter brings them up all all the time - mainly why
do we live in an old home? why is our car so old? - and my son
looks at how we don't have all new things but he gets to use the
computers all the time, he gets to buy tokens and membership on
online games, and he has very good skills on the games and a fair
amount of respect in the way that I speak to him most of the time.
So others usually want to come here or call him from the US on
Skype. I see how all the time my daughter and my son are figuring
out what these things mean, what are the relative values of things
over people. And when there are quiet moments the questions - from
my daughter - or the complaints - from my son - show where their
observations lead them. Plus they fight pretty regularly trying to
figure out with each other who gets what and how I respond.
I want us to have a very very open household where people are welcome
and where we have so many different perspectives and approaches.
Both my children love having people over, having sleep overs, calling
others to come and eat, watch a movie, play a game. They would
probably live with 100 others if they had the ability to do so. For
me one of the big advantages of living in the Caribbean is that
despite the crime and all the other horrible things, there is
definitely more a sense of human to human than I ever experienced in
my many years of living and travelling in the US or in the UK or
Europe - with a few exceptions. Trinidad is trying to follow the
North American way these days and it may suit North America but it
sure doesn't suit our environment.
Anyhow, long post already but since so much of unschooling to me is
having people - young and old - figure things out by watching others,
thinking things through, experimenting, I certainly think that our
household attitudes to material things and how we can determine the
destiny of our possessions is a super big and important aspect of
consensual unschooling living and deserves lots and lots of
discussion time.
Gillian

P.S. Don't assume that we have it all down pat here though. We have
2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
with who gets which computer and for how long.


Posted by: "k" katherand@... katherand2003
Mon Sep 8, 2008 9:55 am (PDT)

And I very much appreciate your comments, Gillian, because it goes a
long
way to illustrate that the interpretation of sharing changes from
culture to
culture and that sharing itself is a cultural concept-- not
universal. Not
even within the same country.

Like for instance, I grew up with the idea that nothing belonged to me
because I was a kid, and even now I have a hard time thinking that
anything
is really mine. The other idea I was raised with is that material
objects
aren't that important.

Those aren't facts. They're ideas, and the ideas can change from
culture to
culture. Many people didn't grow up with the ideas I grew up with at
all.

I think a lot of people see unschooling as a culture itself. In many
ways,
it can be.

But here's one of those instances where we can see that unschooling
reflects
the particular values of each family who is unschooling their children.
Sharing and giving are based on what we think about ownership. The
level of
importance, the amount, the value, and all those things tie in with our
ideas about ownership.

Unschooling works well if, like Joyce and others have said, we see a
needs-based situation and respond according to the needs of those
involved
right then, not hypothetically or in some other instance. Unschooling
can
even be an opportunity to question how the values we live/d by as a
child
and perhaps as an adult also help or don't help unschooling.

~Katherine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

>We have
>2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
>home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
>can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
>with who gets which computer and for how long.

We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available from Dell
and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible for you to
buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as very
important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my 3 y/o son.
He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom and dad's
computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor, so without
a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to risk him
breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on hers when
she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm working,
so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in the bud
quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.

6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one in the "next
couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
-=b.


--
Brad in Boulder, CO
http://holcombs.org

Jill McCracken

I have actually been thinking about getting a cheap hand-me-down computer
for my son as well--although he's only two. Do you have any recommendations
for locating one at a cheap price? I also don't want him on my computer
because it is my sole computer for work, etc. Thanks!
Jill

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Brad Holcomb <list.brad@...> wrote:

> >We have
> >2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
> >home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
> >can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
> >with who gets which computer and for how long.
>
> We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available from Dell
> and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible for you to
> buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as very
> important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my 3 y/o son.
> He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom and dad's
> computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor, so without
> a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to risk him
> breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on hers when
> she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm
> working,
> so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in the bud
> quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.
>
> 6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one in the
> "next
> couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
> -=b.
>
> --
> Brad in Boulder, CO
> http://holcombs.org
>
>
>



--
Jill McCracken, PhD
Assistant Professor
Division of Languages, Literature, and Writing
University of South Florida St. Petersburg
140 7th Avenue South, DAV 120
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
phone: 727.873.4740
fax: 727.873.4526


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Melissa Gray

On getting cheap computers, Brad is right that you can find some
cheap computers through Dell and other venders....I know at Wal-Mart
last week they had some Dell's on clearance for $200.

We found computers at the local university, in their 'overflow' shop.
Most colleges and universities have these shops, with computers,
furniture, books, equipment....as they replace items, they store them
and will open the store on a regular basis. We bought three
computers, hard drive, keyboard, monitors, for $70 each. (well, the
hard drive was $30, monitor $35, keyboard $5) Look at local school
systems also, as they frequently get grants to replace computers.
Also check out freecycle...for a project, Josh built a computer from
parts he had found and leftovers from upgrades, and gave it to a lady
on freecycle. Sometimes those programs that send free laptops
overseas have deals for donors, like buying laptops for their
price....it's worth it to check up on it, One Laptop One Child had a
deal in which you buy a $400 laptop for them and you get one free for
yourself.

Melissa
Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
Wife to Zane

blog me at
http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com



On Sep 9, 2008, at 8:03 AM, Jill McCracken wrote:

> I have actually been thinking about getting a cheap hand-me-down
> computer
> for my son as well--although he's only two. Do you have any
> recommendations
> for locating one at a cheap price? I also don't want him on my
> computer
> because it is my sole computer for work, etc. Thanks!
> Jill
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Brad Holcomb <list.brad@...>
> wrote:
>
> > >We have
> > >2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
> > >home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
> > >can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
> > >with who gets which computer and for how long.
> >
> > We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available
> from Dell
> > and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible
> for you to
> > buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as
> very
> > important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my
> 3 y/o son.
> > He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom
> and dad's
> > computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor,
> so without
> > a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to
> risk him
> > breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on
> hers when
> > she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm
> > working,
> > so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in
> the bud
> > quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.
> >
> > 6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one
> in the
> > "next
> > couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
> > -=b.
> >
> > --
> > Brad in Boulder, CO
> > http://holcombs.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jill McCracken, PhD
> Assistant Professor
> Division of Languages, Literature, and Writing
> University of South Florida St. Petersburg
> 140 7th Avenue South, DAV 120
> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> phone: 727.873.4740
> fax: 727.873.4526
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brad Holcomb

>I have actually been thinking about getting a cheap hand-me-down computer
>for my son as well--although he's only two. Do you have any recommendations
>for locating one at a cheap price? I also don't want him on my computer
>because it is my sole computer for work, etc. Thanks!

I like Dell because of their warranty. I always buy the "next day on site"
business class warranty along with Complete Care (to cover drops and
spills), which altogether adds about $100/year to the price of a laptop
computer. I don't buy extended warranties on any other products (none), but
my attitude about laptops is that they are very fragile and *will* be broken
at some point, so I just factor the warranty coverage into the price right
off the bat. I've used Dell warranty service about 10 times in the past 4
or 5 years, mostly for damage repairs. For example, my son as he was
becoming more mobile knocked both mine and my wife's laptop onto the floor
from an ottoman or stool, breaking the power socket which is part of the
motherboard. Both times, Dell had a new motherboard installed within 24
hours, without having to mail the laptop away for several days (which is the
only warranty service available from most laptop manufacturers). Dell will
overnight FedEx the part to a local service tech with whom they contract to
complete the work. A month ago, the video card on my laptop died (due to a
faulty Nvidia chip, a problem that is affecting a lot of 2007 laptops), and
I got a new motherboard installed the next day.

The Dell Outlet is a good place to shop. Right now, I see about 100 Dell
Inspiron laptops below $500 (and many below $400) in their Outlet, which
contains items that have been returned, refurbished, etc., but have the same
warranty as brand-new systems.

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ytcvj9

I also shop ebay a lot, but I'll only buy Dell laptops that still have a
warranty in effect. If any warranty (either original or extended) is still
in effect, Dell lets you buy more warranty coverage (which I always do).
Dell even let me add Complete Care warranty on an already-broken laptop
once. I called tech support to say that I had dropped and broken my laptop,
and the tech said that I only had a basic warranty in effect (due to an
oversight on my part), so the drop damage wasn't covered. So he advised me
to buy the Complete Care warranty that day, wait 'til it showed up on my
account, then call them back. It took over 24 hours for the new warranty
coverage to be effective, then I called back and the laptop was repaired the
next day.

The 2007 Latitude D630 I'm typing on right now came from ebay, the 2005 12"
Inspiron 700m my son uses came from ebay (originally purchased for my wife
in 2006 or so), and the 2008 XPS m1330 (all of these are Dells) that my wife
is using came from Dell Outlet as a refurb.

Dell also has a brand new mini-computer called the Inspiron Mini. 9"
screen, not fully featured, but perfect for web and email, etc. And less
than $500. It's brand new, so I don't even know if it's available for
purchase yet.

For desktop systems, I prefer to just buy the parts from newegg.com and
build it myself. I sometimes say (only semi-jokingly) that I've actually
used the same desktop PC since about 1996, but all the parts are different
except for a floppy drive that was in that original Pentium 120 system, I
think. I've just upgraded in small increments over a dozen years, and I'm
on my 3rd case. A few months ago I splurged and upgraded to a quad-core CPU
and a motherboard to support it, to make video editing quicker. I also
bought some new RAM at that time, but everything else (hard drives, video
card, etc) got carried over from the old system.

(Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with Dell in any way other than as a
satisfied customer who has owned about 8 of their laptops in the past 6 or 8
years. I have no reason to buy anything else.)

-=b.

k

A local library was getting new computers and selling their old ones for
$200. I even got a refurbed Mac desktop (my preference) online for $400.

~Katherine



On 9/9/08, Melissa Gray <autismhelp@...> wrote:
>
> On getting cheap computers, Brad is right that you can find some
> cheap computers through Dell and other venders....I know at Wal-Mart
> last week they had some Dell's on clearance for $200.
>
> We found computers at the local university, in their 'overflow' shop.
> Most colleges and universities have these shops, with computers,
> furniture, books, equipment....as they replace items, they store them
> and will open the store on a regular basis. We bought three
> computers, hard drive, keyboard, monitors, for $70 each. (well, the
> hard drive was $30, monitor $35, keyboard $5) Look at local school
> systems also, as they frequently get grants to replace computers.
> Also check out freecycle...for a project, Josh built a computer from
> parts he had found and leftovers from upgrades, and gave it to a lady
> on freecycle. Sometimes those programs that send free laptops
> overseas have deals for donors, like buying laptops for their
> price....it's worth it to check up on it, One Laptop One Child had a
> deal in which you buy a $400 laptop for them and you get one free for
> yourself.
>
> Melissa
> Mom to Joshua, Breanna, Emily, Rachel, Samuel, Daniel and Avari
> Wife to Zane
>
> blog me at
> http://startlinglives.blogspot.com/
> http://startlinglives365.blogspot.com
>
> On Sep 9, 2008, at 8:03 AM, Jill McCracken wrote:
>
> > I have actually been thinking about getting a cheap hand-me-down
> > computer
> > for my son as well--although he's only two. Do you have any
> > recommendations
> > for locating one at a cheap price? I also don't want him on my
> > computer
> > because it is my sole computer for work, etc. Thanks!
> > Jill
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Brad Holcomb <list.brad@...<list.brad%40gmail.com>>
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > >We have
> > > >2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
> > > >home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
> > > >can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
> > > >with who gets which computer and for how long.
> > >
> > > We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available
> > from Dell
> > > and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible
> > for you to
> > > buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as
> > very
> > > important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my
> > 3 y/o son.
> > > He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom
> > and dad's
> > > computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor,
> > so without
> > > a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to
> > risk him
> > > breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on
> > hers when
> > > she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm
> > > working,
> > > so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in
> > the bud
> > > quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.
> > >
> > > 6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one
> > in the
> > > "next
> > > couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
> > > -=b.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brad in Boulder, CO
> > > http://holcombs.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Jill McCracken, PhD
> > Assistant Professor
> > Division of Languages, Literature, and Writing
> > University of South Florida St. Petersburg
> > 140 7th Avenue South, DAV 120
> > St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> > phone: 727.873.4740
> > fax: 727.873.4526
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

It's fascinating and I have enjoyed the few times I've been around people
who are much more relaxed about ownership and things. Actually, it may be
that the girl (who was from Mexico) may not have been trying to steal from
me when one of my things went missing and the next time I saw it was on her
shelf in her dorm room. She had been in the US for years though. So I
don't know really.

A family from NYC was much more relaxed about things than I was used to. It
was interesting being friends with them, to say the least. :) There was a
lot more sharing and though it was not actually expected of me I felt that I
would be better friends with them if I did, you know?

~Katherine



On 9/9/08, Gillian Goddard <gilliangoddard@...> wrote:
>
> Yup, having others take or borrow what we 'own' is really different
> from culture to culture and family to family.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

We could have used another computer when Karl was 3. I think. Brian just
got a laptop, so that's good. :) Funny that. We don't often seem to end
up using all three of our computers at once, and this is like the 2nd or 3rd
week of having 3 available.

~Katherine



On 9/9/08, Brad Holcomb <list.brad@...> wrote:
>
> >We have
> >2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
> >home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
> >can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
> >with who gets which computer and for how long.
>
> We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available from Dell
> and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible for you to
> buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as very
> important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my 3 y/o son.
> He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom and dad's
> computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor, so without
> a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to risk him
> breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on hers when
> she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm
> working,
> so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in the bud
> quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.
>
> 6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one in the
> "next
> couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
> -=b.
>
> --
> Brad in Boulder, CO
> http://holcombs.org
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

Join your local freecycle. I've also seen surplus computers on sale from
the library and the local university. I bet there are companies that do the
same thing. The library ones weren't very old and sold for $200, the whole
thing with all the peripherals. I'm sure they had a lot of use on them but
they worked.

~Katherine



On 9/9/08, Jill McCracken <mccracken.jill@...> wrote:
>
> I have actually been thinking about getting a cheap hand-me-down
> computer
> for my son as well--although he's only two. Do you have any recommendations
> for locating one at a cheap price? I also don't want him on my computer
> because it is my sole computer for work, etc. Thanks!
> Jill
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:59 AM, Brad Holcomb <list.brad@...<list.brad%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > >We have
> > >2 computers, 2 self-employed adults and 2 self-schooled children at
> > >home most of the day - and many other children in and out. So you
> > >can imagine the living courtroom that happens here on a daily basis
> > >with who gets which computer and for how long.
> >
> > We're also a self-employed home. With decent computers available from
> Dell
> > and other vendors for <US$400 these days, would it be possible for you to
> > buy 1 or 2 more? I personally see availability of the internet as very
> > important, so I already got a cheap hand-me-down computer for my 3 y/o
> son.
> > He was wanting to watch youtube videos and other things on mom and dad's
> > computers. Mine is essential for business (I'm an IT contractor, so
> without
> > a working computer I can't do billable work) so I didn't want to risk him
> > breaking something on mine. And my wife didn't like him being on hers
> when
> > she wanted to use it, and got frustrated when I would tell him "I'm
> > working,
> > so go use mom's". It was a week or 2 of drama that got nipped in the bud
> > quickly as soon as the new PC arrived.
> >
> > 6 months ago, my thinking was that we would need to get him one in the
> > "next
> > couple years". I didn't know he'd want one at 3.
> > -=b.
> >
> > --
> > Brad in Boulder, CO
> > http://holcombs.org
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jill McCracken, PhD
> Assistant Professor
> Division of Languages, Literature, and Writing
> University of South Florida St. Petersburg
> 140 7th Avenue South, DAV 120
> St. Petersburg, FL 33701
> phone: 727.873.4740
> fax: 727.873.4526
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

amberlee_b

We are a Mac Family too! :)