amberlee_b

How do you reconcile unschooling and responsibilities? Do you ask your children to do
homework or do you just leave things out for them to forage through if they are
interested? And if they have asked you to find something or get something for them to
use and then they don't use it, then what?

My DH is just the best...and we don't usually disagree. But I hate the typical school at
home idea and the fighting with my kids over it--so I don't or haven't. My DH disagrees
and says that although most of our unschooling has been great that we need to do certain
things on a regular basis...Math for example. Even mentioning doing homework makes
the children run to the 4 winds....

So how do you do it? I have 3 very different children. they learn differently, very different
interests and attitudes. I am sure you have similar situations. I have pulled up
appropriate websites, let them check out books, things like that...how do you show they
know or have what is needed for each year for the school district (portfolio, etc...) and if
you only use 1 or 2 items for each subject in a portfolio, do you need to do anything
throughout the year?

What about high school? They expect math through Algebra....how can we show they got
through algebra?

Does this make sense or am I just being over anxious?

Pamela Sorooshian

Well - good questions. Very basic unschooling issues!

> How do you reconcile unschooling and responsibilities?

We think really hard about how people learn to be responsible. Why are
WE responsible? Do you do dishes, now, because your mother made you do
them when you were ten years old? Why do you wash (or not wash) your
car? Why do you make (or not make) your own bed? Do you do laundry? Do
you take your own dishes from the living room to the kitchen? Why why
why? <G>

I do what "I" want to do. I choose to usually take my dishes to the
kitchen because I have figured out that the consequences of leaving
them sitting out in the living room are negative - they pile up and
get in the way, things get spilled, they attract ants, the food cakes
on and they get harder to wash, the dog knocks them over and things
get broken, etc. Oh yeah - pretty much all of those have happened, to
me, more than once. I take showers because - I like the feeling of
being clean, I suppose. And I don't want to offend people around me by
being smelly. And I like the feeling and look of my hair being clean
and flowy, rather than a little dirty/oily and clinging to my head.
That's what I mean by "ask why you do things." Figure out your own
motivations. Do any of those really need to be created in some way by
someone else?

We act responsibly most of the time - because we know that our own
integrity is important - we carry through on things we say we'll do
because we want people to trust us. We aren't responsible because our
parents made us do chores. We're responsible because we "now" see the
reasons for doing certain things.

> Do you ask your children to do homework or do you just leave things
> out for them to forage through if they are
> interested?

We do not have any kind of required academic work at all. No lessons,
no assignments, no required reading, no reports due, no testing or
grading. The next question is often, "But, then, how do they know what
they need to know for college?"

If they choose college, they will figure out what is needed and
prepare themselves for it. My kids are now 23, 20, and 17 - one has
graduated from college, one is attending college full time, one has
taken some college courses. With NO academic requirements, they still
learned all they needed to know to get into college and do well. It is
very possible. In fact, their experience in college was that they were
better students than most of the other students who had spent 13+
years "preparing" for college.

I think by "leave things out" you might be referring to academic/
school-type things. If you leave a math book out, will they eventually
pick it up and "do it?" Probably not. They don't need school-type work
to learn the things school tries to teach them. They can learn to do
basic arithmetic, for example, MUCH more effectively, if you keep
those math book away from them and allow them the freedom to learn
naturally, from situations that come up in real life.

> And if they have asked you to find something or get something for
> them to
> use and then they don't use it, then what?

"To use?" Like, "Mommy, buy me that algebra book?" And then it turns
out it was a mistake and it is boring and they don't want to do it
anymore? It happens. Try not to spend a lot of money on stuff that
looks like conventional school materials - they tend to be mediocre
and kids tend to lose interest even though they might have sounded
like a good idea at the time. IN fact, try to find other ways to offer
the same opportunity to learn. If they say they want to learn to speak
Spanish, don't go out and buy a Spanish book - think about some ways
to introduce just a little Spanish into their lives. Think small. This
is like you might introduce new foods. Maybe they're interested in
sushi - wouldn't you offer a sample and then maybe a meal (with some
alternatives just in case they didn't like it that much), not an
entire year's menu based on it? This is a great list for getting ideas
- not for academic programs/workbooks/textbooks - but for ways to
support a child's interest in just about anything! And, yes, let them
drop it if they lose interest. Absolutely. Do you want to make them
absolutely hate it? Well, then force them to continue against their
will.

>
>
> My DH is just the best...and we don't usually disagree. But I hate
> the typical school at
> home idea and the fighting with my kids over it--so I don't or
> haven't. My DH disagrees
> and says that although most of our unschooling has been great that
> we need to do certain
> things on a regular basis...Math for example.

So - here's the deal with math. Schooling has made MOST people
slightly math-anxious and many people extremely math-phobic. Of all
the school subjects, that is the one that schools are doing the worst
job on. That is the LAST one you ought to single out to "do school"
with. Better to "school everything but math" rather than "unschool
everything but math." (I'm not recommending either of those options,
though.)

I decided many years ago to at least "do no harm" to my little
children's natural love of numbers, patterns, puzzles, and games (in
other words, math). So - no formal math was done to them. We played a
LOT. We talked about ideas that involved mathematical concepts like
more and less (when they were little) and approaching infinity (when
they were older). We used arithmetic in normal life ways. They learned
to do all the usual "prealgebra" stuff - adding and subtracting,
multiplying and dividing whole numbers and fractions. They noticed
exponents here and there and figured those out. They used decimals and
percentages and noticed how decimals, fractions, and percentages could
be interchanged and which were more useful for various purposes. It
all happened without conscious effort - all in the context of doing
other things they wanted to do.

Algebra? No - it doesn't just happen naturally (well, lots of
algebraic thinking does, but not formal algebra). Each of them was a
little interested in algebra at some time in their teen years - enough
to sort of look at it and get a feeling for what it was about, but not
enough to actually work through a formal course. The older two
eventually chose to go to college and there they took algebra and
actually quite enjoyed it. They looked forward to it, didn't dread it,
had no preconceived notions about it being difficult or confusing.
They were a little disappointed in math teachers, in general, who
don't bother with helping students understand why things work or when
you'd want to use it, but just want students to memorize how to work
certain kinds of problems. But they realized that was the teacher's
problem, not their problem, and they would ask me or google around and
get their own answers, when they really wanted them.

> Even mentioning doing homework makes the children run to the 4
> winds....

Yeah- so take a hint.... <G>.
>
>
> So how do you do it? I have 3 very different children. they learn
> differently, very different
> interests and attitudes. I am sure you have similar situations. I
> have pulled up
> appropriate websites, let them check out books, things like
> that...how do you show they
> know or have what is needed for each year for the school district
> (portfolio, etc...) and if
> you only use 1 or 2 items for each subject in a portfolio, do you
> need to do anything
> throughout the year?

You have a very limited idea of how kids can learn. Your repertoire of
ideas is small. It is like you think music only consists of two
possible styles - let's see, reggae and classical - and when your kids
want to listen to music, that's ALL you can think of to offer. There
is a whole world of ways to learn out there - you just don't see it yet.

As far as documenting what they do - most of us don't have to do that.
Depends on what state you live in. If you let us know which state it
is - someone here will be able to specifically help you with how to
meet the legal requirements for your own state.

Keep in mind - learning is learning whether or not it is documented.
Documenting doesn't make it any more valid or valuable.

>
>
> What about high school? They expect math through Algebra....how can
> we show they got
> through algebra?

"They?"

-pam sorooshian

Nicole Willoughby

Does this make sense or am I just being over anxious?>>>>>>>>



My unschooler decided to go to school this year. She is in 3rd grade and yes its only been 2 weeks but so far she says the work is patheticly easy.
She spent most of last year playing WOW.

I have to make dinner Ill try to write more on this later.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

So how do you do it? I have 3 very different children. they learn
> differently, very different
> interests and attitudes. I am sure you have similar situations. I
> have pulled up
> appropriate websites, let them check out books, things like
> that...how do you show they
> know or have what is needed for each year for the school district
> (portfolio, etc...) and if
> you only use 1 or 2 items for each subject in a portfolio, do you
> need to do anything
> throughout the year?

There's a difference between talking about your husband's expectations and
meeting state requirements. I couldn't tell which one are you're into?
Both, I'd guess.

Look into the homeschooling requirements for your state at nhen.org and if
you're like me, I didn't worry Karl's dad with these.

For him, I did something different. I looked up what the state's adopted
objectives were for grade level and printed it out. Then I went through and
checked off what Karl knows, going by my own observation not asking Karl
anything. Then if you want more to show your husband, you can strategize
how to do that. Of course ticking off grade level objectives works better
the longer you have observed your children learning and the longer you have
been homeschooling.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicole Willoughby

I have to make dinner Ill try to write more on this later. >>>>


Or I can just say read and ponder Pams post cause she pretty much said everything I was going to say.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lyeping2008

Hi amberlee,

"although most of our unschooling has been great that we need to do
certain things on a regular basis...Math for example." How do you
show they know or have what is needed for each year for the school
district (portfolio, etc...)

I agree with Katherine. Her idea of printing the state checklist and
ticking it is a good idea. Not only it's something that hubby could
see, but it can also show him how spread out your kids' learning is
gonna be- a good reason why unschooling works. Natural learning does
not happen in perfect sequence. You might see that your child's
interest spread across 2, if not 3 grades, like mine do.

It seems like all hubby is asking for, is some subtle encouragement
(evidence) that everything is going alright academically. Does you
husband work alot? Mine do. When they are away a good part of the
day, daily, they don't have the luxury of spending time with our
children, hence alot of our kids doing, learning and Eureka's is
missed out. Even tho the husbands can see that unschooling is
working, but how and what exactly is making it work, they have no
idea. Which might explained thier uncertainty.

A portfolio is a catalouge of your child. So start collecting
anything that the child did - drawings, photos of the activity, or
maybe a monthly or quarterly write up from you assesing that
individual child's learning personality, noting down everything from
conversations to the the child's "realisations". This portfolio (i
used a carton box) can be re-arrange sometime later.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"How do you reconcile unschooling and responsibilities? Do you ask
your children to do > homework or do you just leave things out for
them to forage through if they are interested?"

I allow my son to forage. I make alot of things available, I can be
quite a horder, so it's not difficult LOL! The more things I have,
the more "sightings of learning" I get.

You could provide computers games. I find pc educational games is
great fun for my kid and some of them have progress tracking system
whereby you can print out for your hubby to look. Online
Time4Learning is another fun site that tracks and print the child's
progress.

Photographs tells alot of stories. I take pix alot and I show hubby,
relating the experience in educationese- language. Like when we
built Lego structures, I called it Design Technolgy (DT) sessions.
Or when we read, depending on what we're reading, it's can be
called history, understanding punctuations or Drama (we're reading
out to each other in different characters and tone of voice.)

Maths is everyday learning, from money counting to count down to
birthdays. Algebra will come naturally only when it start making
sense to the my kid.

My child is going to be 8 in 2 months time, but already he see sense
in why we study trigonometry - because we had teh chance to learn
how to measure a tree with a stick in hand. But this deosn't mean
he's into trigonometry. It's just a mere aquintance. I took note of
this because I know we will come across this subject again in the
future.

Learning about angles is strong in his mind tho, because he
understood trajectory thru his medieval arrow shooting game. He
needed "a word" to explained to me why his arrow didn't reached the
target- where he was going wrong. Hence I told him it's called
angles. And soon, he's started rattling away about at what angle-
degree the arrow will fly past the target, but if he keeps it 30 -40
degree, the arrow will go up and travel back down perfectly. In
educationese terms he's learnt science and maths. And hubby comes
back, I'll intigate son to show daddy his "cool new arrow game" of
which son will be spouting all this maths' lingo.

Everything can be documented, and if we plot this on the standard
education structure, we'll see that our child's realisation of such
academic subjects is all over the place.

I don't worry about highschool because we don't see son going there,
but son still have this romantic notion of college, so that's
my "vague" focuspoint. But really, to how I see it, when it's his
time for college in 7 yrs time, who's to say what's the requirements
then? As it is now, it's possible for our kids to do A levels in a
correspondence course. There's even online virtual classes.

So, I'm thinking, if it's college he decides on, I'm convinced that
he'll ace any subjects including Maths, when there's a need for it.
So, for now, we'll just focus on what's relevant now and next year.
I have read of unschooling kids' who's never done any academic
subjects before, finishing thier GCSE's Maths in under 6 months.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> And if they have asked you to find something or get something
for them to use and then they don't use it, then what?

I have asked for many bottles of perfumes, but I don't use them all,
all the time LOL!

They have asked for it because at that point of asking,
a "realisation" has hit them. But then, they have since moved onto
another "realisation" that's more interesting. So, no worries, leave
that thing in within sight, they'll get back to it when
that "realisation" hit them again.

Hope this helps.

Hugs and smiles,
SharonBugs,

amberlee_b

Actually when I said leaving things out, I did mean having lots of books to read, craft
supplies, fun stuff to play with...options. I am just trying to find ways to keep my DH on
board and have him understand where unschooling is coming from and how that works as
opposed to how we were forced to do chores (and usually chose not to--for me...or
stopped doing it because mom would re-do what wasn't done her version of right--for
him).

As for Algebra, our state requirements include that and Geometry. (Unless I am mistaken,
and I could be). That is what I mean by they...

As for homework, I mentioned that as what I had tried in the past, but it was really early in
the AM here when I wrote this so it was not very clear.....my bad--LOL I hate homework
too and don't like to talk or think about it either.

Today one child is working on illustrations for a book, another is experimenting with paint
and the 3rd is creating a marble ramp and maze with cardboard and paper....these are
very typical events around here...I think my hubby will slowly understand that the kids will
get responsibility without having it drilled cruelly into their heads. I mean they started
asking to mow the lawn for heaven's sakes! What child wants to mow...hee hee

Your post really helped! Thanks...I guess sometimes we just need to reassure the voice in
our head that was programmed in until we can completely get rid of it.

amberlee_b

Great idea! Thanks. Yes it was both DH and state/school district...

--- In [email protected], k <katherand@...> wrote:
>
> So how do you do it? I have 3 very different children. they learn
> > differently, very different
> > interests and attitudes. I am sure you have similar situations. I
> > have pulled up
> > appropriate websites, let them check out books, things like
> > that...how do you show they
> > know or have what is needed for each year for the school district
> > (portfolio, etc...) and if
> > you only use 1 or 2 items for each subject in a portfolio, do you
> > need to do anything
> > throughout the year?
>
> There's a difference between talking about your husband's expectations and
> meeting state requirements. I couldn't tell which one are you're into?
> Both, I'd guess.
>
> Look into the homeschooling requirements for your state at nhen.org and if
> you're like me, I didn't worry Karl's dad with these.
>
> For him, I did something different. I looked up what the state's adopted
> objectives were for grade level and printed it out. Then I went through and
> checked off what Karl knows, going by my own observation not asking Karl
> anything. Then if you want more to show your husband, you can strategize
> how to do that. Of course ticking off grade level objectives works better
> the longer you have observed your children learning and the longer you have
> been homeschooling.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

amberlee_b

I will ponder and read and reread Pam's post, as well as others....Huggs all around. :)

--- In [email protected], Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>
wrote:
>
> I have to make dinner Ill try to write more on this later. >>>>
>
>
> Or I can just say read and ponder Pams post cause she pretty much said everything I was
going to say.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

amberlee_b

*Lightbulb turns on!*

I want to say my DH and I discuss everything. We chose early on to read parenting books
and look for our way to care for our children. Homeschooling he was on board for,
unschooling has, unfortunately, derogatory things associated with it by the media, family,
etc. So my goal is to find a good way to better explain it to him so he can help and feel he
is part of it. Yes he works a lot...if he could work from home I think he would. He is a
fabulous father and loves his kids dearly. He is worried about laziness and responsibility.
We have been discussing that along with budgeting and how we can be lazy and
irresponsible at times. That we like to sleep in till noon on Saturdays when we can, so why
not the children.

I do this in a kind way and show him the kids have a vast knowledge. My eldest wrote his
first novel and my DH was surprised at the child's language skill. Deep down, you are
right, he KNOWS it is working. He just can't see why. He is a programmer and software
developer always looking to fix puzzles and I think unschooling is a bit of a puzzle he is
still trying to figure out.

I also think part of it is maybe a little resentment on his part that he wasted 4 years in
High School going to 4 different high schools (father was Air Force at the time) and
dealing with "ignorant and unintelligent" teachers. That he didn't get to play as much as
he would have liked, etc. We have all been there! :)

I think I just needed your post to see it from a different angle. Thank you and huggs!

Amberlee the not so worried anymore
back to marbles and kittens

>
> It seems like all hubby is asking for, is some subtle encouragement
> (evidence) that everything is going alright academically. Does you
> husband work alot? Mine do. When they are away a good part of the
> day, daily, they don't have the luxury of spending time with our
> children, hence alot of our kids doing, learning and Eureka's is
> missed out. Even tho the husbands can see that unschooling is
> working, but how and what exactly is making it work, they have no
> idea. Which might explained thier uncertainty.
>
> A portfolio is a catalouge of your child. So start collecting
> anything that the child did - drawings, photos of the activity, or
> maybe a monthly or quarterly write up from you assesing that
> individual child's learning personality, noting down everything from
> conversations to the the child's "realisations". This portfolio (i
> used a carton box) can be re-arrange sometime later.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> "How do you reconcile unschooling and responsibilities? Do you ask
> your children to do > homework or do you just leave things out for
> them to forage through if they are interested?"
>
> I allow my son to forage. I make alot of things available, I can be
> quite a horder, so it's not difficult LOL! The more things I have,
> the more "sightings of learning" I get.
>
> You could provide computers games. I find pc educational games is
> great fun for my kid and some of them have progress tracking system
> whereby you can print out for your hubby to look. Online
> Time4Learning is another fun site that tracks and print the child's
> progress.
>
> Photographs tells alot of stories. I take pix alot and I show hubby,
> relating the experience in educationese- language. Like when we
> built Lego structures, I called it Design Technolgy (DT) sessions.
> Or when we read, depending on what we're reading, it's can be
> called history, understanding punctuations or Drama (we're reading
> out to each other in different characters and tone of voice.)
>
> Maths is everyday learning, from money counting to count down to
> birthdays. Algebra will come naturally only when it start making
> sense to the my kid.
>
> My child is going to be 8 in 2 months time, but already he see sense
> in why we study trigonometry - because we had teh chance to learn
> how to measure a tree with a stick in hand. But this deosn't mean
> he's into trigonometry. It's just a mere aquintance. I took note of
> this because I know we will come across this subject again in the
> future.
>
> Learning about angles is strong in his mind tho, because he
> understood trajectory thru his medieval arrow shooting game. He
> needed "a word" to explained to me why his arrow didn't reached the


> Hope this helps.
>
> Hugs and smiles,
> SharonBugs,
>

Bekki Kirby

> My unschooler decided to go to school this year. She is in 3rd grade and yes
> its only been 2 weeks but so far she says the work is patheticly easy.
> She spent most of last year playing WOW.

I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but I wanted to jump on
this... I somehow always really liked school. Maybe because it's all
I knew. Maybe because, by a miracle of genes and mothering, I was
GOOD at school. I could play the game well. Well... yeah... I have
never understood why "everyone else" thought school was hard. I
skipped a grade and then did honors classes... and was still bored. I
didn't need repetition to understand things. Sitting still and being
told the same stuff I'd been assigned to read didn't make it suddenly
"click". Your daughter hasn't shut down her brain, like so many
apparently have... she's told the basic idea on something and gets it.
And then probably also gets the other ways it can be applied... and
is suddenly months (if not years) ahead of the rest of the class.
Then she'll likely get in trouble for "not paying attention" when her
brain is off working elsewhere as she desperately tries not to fall
asleep. I would love to talk to her about what she's getting out of
school. It'd be really interesting. :-)
Anyway... until about 4th grade, I would play with numbers. I loved
math (partly because I'd been officially recognized as "good at it.")
I had a gigantic notepad my mom had gotten at a garage sale, and hung
on the wall, it was literally 4 feet tall, but ruled. And I'd just
start randomly adding/subtracting numbers... cover the whole sheet
with an ongoing 4+3=7-2=5x6=30... It was fun. No one told me it
wasn't.

Anyway... sorry... got inspired somehow. I'll finish drinking my
coffee and reading the thread. I think I'm Off-Topic Woman lately.

Bekki
--
"Do not ask what the world needs. Instead, ask what makes you come
alive. Because what the world needs is more people who have come
alive."

--Thurmond Whitman

Mother of three angels and two pirates
Kayla (9)
Hunter (b. 8/9/03, d. 8/22/03)
Jo (misc 1/15/04)
Jared (3)
Camelia (b. 12/16/07, d. 12/10/07)

Nicole Willoughby

I would love to talk to her about what she's getting out of
school. It'd be really interesting. :-) >>>>>>

She has made a few "visits" of several weeks to school before and left. Dad told her she had to stay the whole year this year if she decided to go. I have this feeling after an entire year of school she is going to be ready to come home :) ... but who knows I may be wrong.

For her it was social time and time away from the madness at home. In the past year her autistic brother has had some major problems and we have spent a lot of time at Dr's offices and the hospital. On top of it we have major financial and vehicle issues. She was SICK of being either stuck at home or drug to dr aptts for her brother.

There was a lot of the time last year that all of my attention had to be focused on Nate just to keep him from harming himself and others. I really cant blame her for seeing school as more interesting than home.

We have a few "skip " days planned and while one day wont make up for all the time lost i hope it will help make us closer . Same thig for alyssa.

Nicole



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lyeping2008

--- In [email protected], "amberlee_b"
<amberlee16@...> wrote:
>
> *Lightbulb turns on!*
> Amberlee the not so worried anymore
> back to marbles and kittens
>
> >
> > It seems like all hubby is asking for, is some subtle
encouragement
> > (evidence) that everything is going alright academically. Does
you
> > husband work alot? Mine do. When they are away a good part of
the
> > day, daily, they don't have the luxury of spending time with our
> > children, hence alot of our kids doing, learning and Eureka's is
> > missed out. Even tho the husbands can see that unschooling is
> > working, but how and what exactly is making it work, they have
no
> > idea. Which might explained thier uncertainty.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Amberlee,

Glad I was of help.

Hugs and Big Smiles
SharonBugs.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Willoughby <cncnawilloughby@...>

She has made a few "visits" of several weeks to school before and left.
Dad told
her she had to stay the whole year this year if she decided to go.

-=-=-=-=-

Why? If he had chosen a bad job, would he stay? Or would he find a
better job?

-=-=-=-=-

For her it was social time and time away from the madness at home. In
the past
year her autistic brother has had some major problems and we have spent
a lot of
time at Dr's offices and the hospital. On top of it we have major
financial and
vehicle issues. She was SICK of being either stuck at home or drug to
dr aptts
for her brother.

-=-=-=-=-

There were no better options than school?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

Nicole Willoughby

Why? If he had chosen a bad job, would he stay? Or would he find a
better job?>>>>>>

Well actually.....yes. He stayed at a bad job for 2 years because my dad helped him get it and he felt he had a duty to stick it out .....Thankfully he finally left.
Ive gotten him to rethink his position on this and after seeing that they are teaching everything to the TAKS test and other ridiculous stuff he let her know she was more than welcome to come home whenever she got ready. So this part has become a non issue .


There were no better options than school?>>>>>>>

Her past year was spend with me having to mainly pay attention to her autistic brother. He had become violent and I was truly spending most of my time and energy keeping him from hurting himself and others. When i wasnt doing that I was busy screaming at doctors that no we were not going to just give him larger doses of dangerous psycotropic medicaitions .

After finding a new pedi, and getting a referral to a gi , and waiting for the first appt, and having a colonoscopy and EDG done we found out that he has damage from his esophagus all the way through to his rectum. Sent for more testing and found out that he has allergies to wheat milk and sesame seeds. We go back the 23rd to the gi and he is going to be referred to an allergist because the test they gave only did the top 10 foods and GI thinks there is more.

We discussed other possible options but for her school was the best possible option.

Nicole



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]