Gayle Alderfer Fisher

Hello. I've been around this list for about three years now. I think I only posted one other time, near the beginning of that three years. I have gone no mail at times - only due to making choices about how I spend time - but became a faithful reader again a few months ago.
We are now living in Bangladesh, heading up an NGO here that works on various aspects of relief and development. We're coming up on our one year anniversary, and it's been quite a year. Wow. We are learning and growing and stretching - painfully so at times. There is no way to put words to what it is like to try to be mindful parents and radical unschoolers in this culture. (How wonderful to see that there are people in Pune, India! I'm sure they can relate.)
Anyway, I won't get into all of that, but it has been the challenge of living here and without the support of nearby unschooling friends that has brought me back to daily digests and soaking up every word. I am incredibly grateful to the list owners and the many people that take the time to write.
Today though I come asking for specific help. I see a pattern in the way conflicts between Faye and Annika (daughters - almost 8 and 6) get resolved (I wouldn't actually call it resolution). The pattern is this: They want two different things, seemingly mutually exlusive to them. Faye sticks to what she wants completely, and other ideas are not acceptable to her. Annika eventually 'gives in', but often only out of wanting to move on, or wanting Faye to be happy, or wanting the conflict to end. It doesn't seem though that she is truly content with the outcome. When I try to help, ask if we can try to work something out so that everyone can get what they need/want, it falls apart even more. Faye says she doesn't want to try to work it out. She doesn't want to talk about it. Usually about this point I get frustrated and don't handle things well. Sometime I first manage a few attempts at something like "Faye, I'm not saying you can't have what you want. I'm
asking if we can talk about finding a solution that everyone is happy with, including you." When Faye closes herself off to any possibilities, I fall apart, feeling out of options. When I get upset, Annika again 'gives in' to restore the peace. As they went on with watching the movie (the issue this morning was where they would each sit to watch a movie on the computer) it was clear that neither was happy. Faye was still picking at Annika and as I left Annika was saying under her breath "Next time I'M going to sit there." I went back in because it was so obvious that there had not been resolution, had not been a result that left them both feeling honored and happy with the outcome. I was at a loss to find a way to bring that out into the open, to be able to work at a different solution.
Now for what I see contributing to this situation: I could cry, and sometimes do, about the ways I did not help Faye to gracefully enter into being an older child. She was only 20 months old when Annika was born, and I was not in the unschooling/mindful parenting mindset. I was in a much more traditional place. She was still a baby herself, and I expected her to understand when I 'couldn't' hold her because I was nursing Annika, and many other things but you get the idea. Faye was able to voice to me a couple of years ago that she felt as if I loved Annika more. I have apologized and we have talked a lot about how I see things so differently now and am so sorry for the ways I left her feeling outside of the circle of our family, and unwanted after Annika was born. This was not a one-time conversation. We revisited it often, and the many conversations and hugs seemed to help. Still, I suspect the residual effects of that continue. Also, I suspect that
Faye does not yet trust that her needs and wants will be honored equally along with those of everyone else if she enters into discussion. I've asked her if that is the case, and she says no, that she just doesn't want to talk, but I still wonder if she has trouble trusting me, and I don't blame her for that at all.
Also, in dealing with the stress of living here I backslid a great deal and moved into controlling behavior big-time. As of about April, another shift happened for me. I woke up again, came back to the lists. came back to my heart and to the hearts of these dear girls, and overall we are living much more peacefully together again. Anyway, I know that my backsliding certainly didn't help the trust factor with Faye. Also, life in general here is stressful for them. They are handling it all so incredibly well, and we talk a lot, and when we stay connected as a family, it seems manageable now. Still, I know the stress, the intensity, the control of the culture, the pollution, the poverty is here and they/we live in that, and it impacts them.
I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can create a shift, begin to help everyone trust that all will be honored. And until that trust is re-established, I'm looking for suggestions as to how to deal with the heat of the moment when there is conflict and for whatever reason Faye is unable to open up to a discussion about meeting the needs of all. This morning I really blew it, and we all ended up in tears with both girls trying to say that everything was okay when it clearly wasn't, and I know they did that because they wanted me to calm down and they just wanted to forget about it all and watch the movie. I don't blame them, but Gosh it all felt horrible and I knew I was only making it worse, practically demanding that each of them admit that the result was NOT okay. YIKES, there are some moments when I really want a re-do. The thing is I know I will get another chance. The issue will come up again, and I would like some other tools in my belt to
pull out and try. Every time I blow it, I know I lose more ground on the trust issue, which leaves me feeling discouraged and at times like I just can't do this. I pull out of that place pretty quickly though. There's no time for feeling hopeless. My girls need me to keep trying and to get better at it - now.
Oh, this got really long. If you made it all the way to here, I'm grateful.
Gayle




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Therese

Oh, My heart so goes out to you Gayle. My girls are close in age as
well (but much younger) and my story is very similar to yours. My
girls are just beginning to really fight over anything and everything
it seems. Right now its biting and hair pulling.. and I too start
crying and feeling the parental guilt from my past parenting.

I read 'Siblings Without Rivalry' and its been very eye opening. One
thing the book talks about is that we should let our kids work out a
solution for themselves as much as possible. This means not getting
involved in their mutally agreed solution just because we don't like
how they've settled it. And if we get involved and cry, we are
really just making them feel bad and manipulating them into what WE
want. I find too that when you step in on behalf of one child or
another, the outcome isn't necessarily authentic and they don't get
the practice they need to work it out themselves.

The book also states that children need to 'own' their own
relationships with eachother. What we deem as 'fair' is not the
goal. The goal is that everyone gets their needs met- whether its
fair to one child or not. Fair is really unequal because one child
may really need more than another. Fairness doesn't have to be
involved. I don't give my teenage nephew the same portion of
pancakes as my 2 year old. The 'same' wouldn't be fair. Obviously
one NEEDS more than the other and that is OKAY.
Giving a child what they need has nothing to do with being fair.
Your younger child may have sensed what her older sister needed (even
though technically it wasn't fair) and backed off. That is okay. I
would be proud of her and let her know quietly that strong and
resilient people do choose to give up what they want for others.

I'm sure that when she gave up what she wanted for her older sister
to be happy- you felt she was being taken advantage of and that you
needed to step in to protect her. But if they worked out a solution-
it is THEIR solution. Instead of intervening in the moment, you can
always pull her aside later and talk about it quietly as to how she
felt about the situation and how she can assert herself more. Ask
her what you can do to help her to further get her needs met. She
may really be fine with the situation. Don't dramatize the situation
to make her feel like she got the bum deal necessarily just because
she didn't get what her initial impulse was.. KWIM?

I could be way off, but those are some of my thoughts.

Anyway, hope that helped.

From the loud newbie,

Therese



--- In [email protected], Gayle Alderfer Fisher
<alder7run@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I've been around this list for about three years now. I
think I only posted one other time, near the beginning of that three
years. I have gone no mail at times - only due to making choices
about how I spend time - but became a faithful reader again a few
months ago.
> We are now living in Bangladesh, heading up an NGO here that works
on various aspects of relief and development. We're coming up on our
one year anniversary, and it's been quite a year. Wow. We are
learning and growing and stretching - painfully so at times. There is
no way to put words to what it is like to try to be mindful parents
and radical unschoolers in this culture. (How wonderful to see that
there are people in Pune, India! I'm sure they can relate.)
> Anyway, I won't get into all of that, but it has been the challenge
of living here and without the support of nearby unschooling friends
that has brought me back to daily digests and soaking up every word.
I am incredibly grateful to the list owners and the many people that
take the time to write.
> Today though I come asking for specific help. I see a pattern in
the way conflicts between Faye and Annika (daughters - almost 8 and
6) get resolved (I wouldn't actually call it resolution). The pattern
is this: They want two different things, seemingly mutually exlusive
to them. Faye sticks to what she wants completely, and other ideas
are not acceptable to her. Annika eventually 'gives in', but often
only out of wanting to move on, or wanting Faye to be happy, or
wanting the conflict to end. It doesn't seem though that she is truly
content with the outcome. When I try to help, ask if we can try to
work something out so that everyone can get what they need/want, it
falls apart even more. Faye says she doesn't want to try to work it
out. She doesn't want to talk about it. Usually about this point I
get frustrated and don't handle things well. Sometime I first manage
a few attempts at something like "Faye, I'm not saying you can't have
what you want. I'm
> asking if we can talk about finding a solution that everyone is
happy with, including you." When Faye closes herself off to any
possibilities, I fall apart, feeling out of options. When I get
upset, Annika again 'gives in' to restore the peace. As they went on
with watching the movie (the issue this morning was where they would
each sit to watch a movie on the computer) it was clear that neither
was happy. Faye was still picking at Annika and as I left Annika was
saying under her breath "Next time I'M going to sit there." I went
back in because it was so obvious that there had not been resolution,
had not been a result that left them both feeling honored and happy
with the outcome. I was at a loss to find a way to bring that out
into the open, to be able to work at a different solution.
> Now for what I see contributing to this situation: I could cry, and
sometimes do, about the ways I did not help Faye to gracefully enter
into being an older child. She was only 20 months old when Annika was
born, and I was not in the unschooling/mindful parenting mindset. I
was in a much more traditional place. She was still a baby herself,
and I expected her to understand when I 'couldn't' hold her because I
was nursing Annika, and many other things but you get the idea. Faye
was able to voice to me a couple of years ago that she felt as if I
loved Annika more. I have apologized and we have talked a lot about
how I see things so differently now and am so sorry for the ways I
left her feeling outside of the circle of our family, and unwanted
after Annika was born. This was not a one-time conversation. We
revisited it often, and the many conversations and hugs seemed to
help. Still, I suspect the residual effects of that continue. Also, I
suspect that
> Faye does not yet trust that her needs and wants will be honored
equally along with those of everyone else if she enters into
discussion. I've asked her if that is the case, and she says no, that
she just doesn't want to talk, but I still wonder if she has trouble
trusting me, and I don't blame her for that at all.
> Also, in dealing with the stress of living here I backslid a great
deal and moved into controlling behavior big-time. As of about April,
another shift happened for me. I woke up again, came back to the
lists. came back to my heart and to the hearts of these dear girls,
and overall we are living much more peacefully together again.
Anyway, I know that my backsliding certainly didn't help the trust
factor with Faye. Also, life in general here is stressful for them.
They are handling it all so incredibly well, and we talk a lot, and
when we stay connected as a family, it seems manageable now. Still, I
know the stress, the intensity, the control of the culture,
the pollution, the poverty is here and they/we live in that, and it
impacts them.
> I'm looking for suggestions as to how I can create a shift, begin
to help everyone trust that all will be honored. And until that trust
is re-established, I'm looking for suggestions as to how to deal with
the heat of the moment when there is conflict and for whatever reason
Faye is unable to open up to a discussion about meeting the needs of
all. This morning I really blew it, and we all ended up in tears with
both girls trying to say that everything was okay when it clearly
wasn't, and I know they did that because they wanted me to calm down
and they just wanted to forget about it all and watch the movie. I
don't blame them, but Gosh it all felt horrible and I knew I was only
making it worse, practically demanding that each of them admit that
the result was NOT okay. YIKES, there are some moments when I really
want a re-do. The thing is I know I will get another chance. The
issue will come up again, and I would like some other tools in my
belt to
> pull out and try. Every time I blow it, I know I lose more ground
on the trust issue, which leaves me feeling discouraged and at times
like I just can't do this. I pull out of that place pretty quickly
though. There's no time for feeling hopeless. My girls need me to
keep trying and to get better at it - now.
> Oh, this got really long. If you made it all the way to here, I'm
grateful.
> Gayle
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:02 PM, Therese wrote:

> I read 'Siblings Without Rivalry' and its been very eye opening.

I really like this book, too, and recommend it highly.

> One
> thing the book talks about is that we should let our kids work out a
> solution for themselves as much as possible.



> This means not getting
> involved in their mutally agreed solution just because we don't like
> how they've settled it.

I think it means honoring any solution they've both agreed on.

I don't think it means "let them fight it out" without parent support,
though.

-pam

Gayle

I've read that book, and I do think it's great.

Let me clarify that I enter in when they're stuck. If Annika is willing
to give Faye what she needs over and over and they are both content
with that, something inside me may not think it's fair, but I leave it
alone. It's when the fighting is escalating, and it would be letting
them fight it out. They are not 'working it out.' Or, Annika gets fed
up with Faye not budging from her desire/need, and finally uphappily
says "OKAY!" out of frustration. They are not learning to work through
conflict in that process.

I also want to say that the two have a positive relationship, enjoy
playing with each other and care about each other deeply and evidently.
I really think the issue is the lack of trust on Faye's part and Annika
taking on the role of keeping others happy.

Those are the things that especially concern me.

Gayle

> I don't think it means "let them fight it out" without parent
support,
> though.
>
> -pam
>

Joyce Fetteroll

I think maybe you're too emotionally involved and it would help to be
more of a resource they go to than someone who comes swooping in to
fix things.

Maybe imagine you and a friend in the middle of a discussion and
someone barges in full of tension at the way the two of you are
handling your disagreement. Would it help?

Come at it sideways. Give both of them peaceful opportunities to
negotiate with you when you're deciding things between the two of
you. Be the change you want to see.

It sounds like Faye has learned that unless she holds onto what she
wants she's not going to get it. It's a strategy kids learn when they
know their parents aren't focused on helping them get what they want
but on the parent getting the child to do what she wants. You may not
be doing that now but it takes a while to trust again.

These clashes have their root in all sorts of other things in their
lives. You're just seeing the reaction. It's tempting to want to fix
the reaction as a way of fixing it all but the interaction is like
the fire alarm, not the fire. Cutting off the alarm bell doesn't put
out the fire.

The Siblings Without Rivalry book is excellent and I'd mine it for
ways to improve the ways you may unconsciously be contributing to
their tensions with each other rather than as a way to fix this one
recurring incident. If you find it tough to get it in Bangladesh,
maybe people on the list can come up with some ideas.

Joyce

Gayle

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I think maybe you're too emotionally involved and it would help to
be
> more of a resource they go to than someone who comes swooping in
to
> fix things.

Yes, I have become too emotionally involved. I like the idea of being
a resource. Maybe when I hear them getting into what seems like
trouble I could approach them and let them know that I'm here if they
want help, but then leave it up to them to ask for the help if they
want it? Is that the kind of thing you mean?

>
> Maybe imagine you and a friend in the middle of a discussion and
> someone barges in full of tension at the way the two of you are
> handling your disagreement. Would it help?

No it wouldn't, and I'm aware of that. I so want to be helpful to
them, because I really think they could use it if I knew how to do it
better.

>
> Come at it sideways. Give both of them peaceful opportunities to
> negotiate with you when you're deciding things between the two of
> you. Be the change you want to see.

Yes, I like that. I'm working at this.

>
> It sounds like Faye has learned that unless she holds onto what
she
> wants she's not going to get it. It's a strategy kids learn when
they
> know their parents aren't focused on helping them get what they
want
> but on the parent getting the child to do what she wants. You may
not
> be doing that now but it takes a while to trust again.


Yes, yes, yes. This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier
post. I do think that's what Faye has learned, and I'm trying to
rebuild that trust, but I sometimes feel like I'm doing the one step
forward two steps back thing, or maybe more like one forward one back
and ending up right back we were to begin with.


>
> These clashes have their root in all sorts of other things in
their
> lives. You're just seeing the reaction. It's tempting to want to
fix
> the reaction as a way of fixing it all but the interaction is like
> the fire alarm, not the fire. Cutting off the alarm bell doesn't
put
> out the fire.

I know this to be true. Thanks for the reminder.

>
> The Siblings Without Rivalry book is excellent and I'd mine it for
> ways to improve the ways you may unconsciously be contributing to
> their tensions with each other rather than as a way to fix this
one
> recurring incident. If you find it tough to get it in Bangladesh,
> maybe people on the list can come up with some ideas.

I don't have the book with me and yes getting it would be a
challenge, but not impossible. I'm now reminding myself of some of my
favorite parts though, e.g. 1) listening to even negative messages
with openness and acceptance, and receiving them as a gift, because
the person is trusting me with those feelings and 2) putting what may
be seen by the outside world as a 'selfish' desire into words for the
child and communicating that I understand. So something like -
"Wouldn't it feel great to watch what you want to watch, when you
want to watch it, sitting where you want to sit without what someone
else wants interfering with that?"

I used to do that more often than I do now, and I think it helped.
Thanks to all three of you for the book reminder.

Gayle
>
> Joyce
>

Pamela Sorooshian

On Aug 2, 2008, at 12:35 AM, Gayle wrote:

> I really think the issue is the lack of trust on Faye's part and
> Annika
> taking on the role of keeping others happy.
>
> Those are the things that especially concern me.

You might be able to step in with an idea that is a little more fair -
just toss it into the mix before the process deteriorates. In other
words, maybe be more a part of the problem-solving process. Gently
gently, of course, so you don't dominate it - but genuinely part, Then
they might have more trust in the process and more confidence of
really getting to a true win-win solution.

Otherwise, what it honestly sounds like to me is a learning situation
- learning over time. It seems okay to me that the solutions are sort
of one-sided for a while - if that is part of the overall learning
process (which could take years, right?).

-pam

Jeanette Crichton

<<<<<Annika eventually 'gives in', but often only out of wanting to move on,
or wanting Faye to be happy, or wanting the conflict to end.>>>>
Someone else said this I think and I have to agree and add a little something. Annika may have realized that Faye needed it more than her-Faye needed the power! I have a lot of discussions with my older son about my younger son's need for power. I have witnessed the cutest play going on between them, where Braeden (oldest) is pretending to be the weak one and Max (the younger) is strong or powerful or in charge or something similar. Braeden usually says to me on the side, I want him to feel powerful, and he is soooo happy about it. Funny thing is that on those days they seem to have NO real power struggles.

Jeanette




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]