Katharine

Hello Everybody,
I am reading on this list on and of for about a year. My friend gave
me the idea about unschooling and homeschooling and so I started to
get some information. Let me tell you, it is not easy to understand
this way of life but I am getting better, I hope lol. But now I need
an advice; my son ist 3,5 yo and all into computer games. He started
over a year ago when he saw me play Myst, so I showed him games on
nickjr and noggin.com. In the beginning he would play once a week,
maybe twice. But as he was getting better he wanted to play more and
more and I was getting worried about the time he was/is spending in
front of the computer. We still had our playtimes with his friend,
playtimes with me or his dad. In January his brother was born and
during the day I was/am not able anymore to play with him all the
time. He has little interested in playing by himself, he needs
running and jumping and moving and with the baby I am not able to
give him this kind of play, at least not all the time. So he ended up
with the games on the computer. And I am worried, mostly because I
think that to much screen time at his age is not good. My friend who
started me on the ideaof unschooling thinks the same and she is able
to set time limits on TV with her 2,5 yo. I tried but it would end up
with fighting, and this is not something that I would like to do. Can
I really trust my son with this, how can I do it when I myself think
that is not good for him. On the other hand I can see how much better
he is with those games but than again, is he not loosing a part of
his imagination (you know all this about brain damage, loosing
interest in books.....). I know that if he getts his needs met with
an active play, he will not be interested in games so much, but right
now I am not able to do it all day long, and I am short on other
ideas (we bake and cook together, he loves to play with water and
dirt, mixing stuff, making paint but it is nothing for 12 h a day.
What can I do or at least how can I be not so worried with this. Any
help would be great.
Katharine
sorry for my english,I am not a native speaker

ENSEMBLE S-WAYNFORTH

I would watch the games and see all that he is doing. Yesterday I spent a lot of the day playing on World of Warcraft with Simon and Linnaea. I worked on getting my newest character to level 10 and managed to hit level 11 as well. That was cool. World of Warcraft is different than the games I played with Simon when he was 3 and 4. We played a lot of Blues Clues and Tonka Construction games. He would sit on my lap and I'd lean back and watch him play. It helped me to feel connected to what he was doing to be so present. When Linnaea came into the picture, when she was tiny, it was easy for me to sit with him while he was playing and hold her and bounce her and hang out with him. So I got to still to see the joy and the learning and the pleasure in what he was doing. There was only a brief time when I worried about Simon and games and that was in the leap from computer games to video games. But it quickly passed and he joyfully moved between mediums.

There is so much going on in the games. So many different levels of experience. There is storytelling and art and puzzle solving and music and so many other things, and so much involvement offered to the player. One of my favorite websites aimed at younger players is the Boobahs website: http://www.boohbah.com/zone.html. I can remember sitting for hours with a friend's daughter on my lap playing on the Boobah site. Neopets is great and there are some really interesting games at http://www.funny-games.biz/main.html that Simon and Linnaea play for ages. Line rider (http://linerider.com/play-line-rider-online) is another amazing site. http://www.abc.net.au/arts/wingedsandals/ is a fantastic story-telling site with games based on Greek mythology.

Screen time is such a dismissive term for such an amazing way to spend some time exploring the world. It is visual and kinesthetic and audial all at once. I love playing along with Simon and Linnaea, they've opened so many doors to me.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

----- Original Message ----
From: Katharine <anja_27_99@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 18 April, 2008 9:45:14 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Need Advice on computer times

Hello Everybody,
I am reading on this list on and of for about a year. My friend gave
me the idea about unschooling and homeschooling and so I started to
get some information. Let me tell you, it is not easy to understand
this way of life but I am getting better, I hope lol. But now I need
an advice; my son ist 3,5 yo and all into computer games. He started
over a year ago when he saw me play Myst, so I showed him games on
nickjr and noggin.com. In the beginning he would play once a week,
maybe twice. But as he was getting better he wanted to play more and
more and I was getting worried about the time he was/is spending in
front of the computer. We still had our playtimes with his friend,
playtimes with me or his dad. In January his brother was born and
during the day I was/am not able anymore to play with him all the
time. He has little interested in playing by himself, he needs
running and jumping and moving and with the baby I am not able to
give him this kind of play, at least not all the time. So he ended up
with the games on the computer. And I am worried, mostly because I
think that to much screen time at his age is not good. My friend who
started me on the ideaof unschooling thinks the same and she is able
to set time limits on TV with her 2,5 yo. I tried but it would end up
with fighting, and this is not something that I would like to do. Can
I really trust my son with this, how can I do it when I myself think
that is not good for him. On the other hand I can see how much better
he is with those games but than again, is he not loosing a part of
his imagination (you know all this about brain damage, loosing
interest in books.....). I know that if he getts his needs met with
an active play, he will not be interested in games so much, but right
now I am not able to do it all day long, and I am short on other
ideas (we bake and cook together, he loves to play with water and
dirt, mixing stuff, making paint but it is nothing for 12 h a day.
What can I do or at least how can I be not so worried with this. Any
help would be great.
Katharine
sorry for my english,I am not a native speaker


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

beensclan

Hi Katherine,

I know how easy it is to fall into the worry trap. I have some
thoughts on the following.....




>
> In the beginning he would play once a week,
> maybe twice. But as he was getting better he wanted to play more

Isn't this just our human nature though? When we become good at
something, it edifies us and fufills us to keep at it. Our
confidences soar when we eventually master something. With that new-
found confidence, we then want to tackle something else. Trust your
son! He'll know when he's been fufilled.


We still had our playtimes with his friend,
> playtimes with me or his dad.

Play will happen all the time, whether its been adult-initiated or
not. Children are born to play. Play is going on even when no-one
is calling it "play-time".


>In January his brother was born and
> during the day I was/am not able anymore to play with him all the
> time.

And you don't need to play with him all the time. You just need to
enjoy his company, support him, talk to him, and make sure that his
home offers him things to explore and conquer.


He has little interested in playing by himself, he needs
> running and jumping and moving and with the baby I am not able to
> give him this kind of play, at least not all the time.

Children will always find ways to get their needs met. You don't
have to have a structured playtime for running and jumping to
happen. Just getting your little ones outside, whether it be a park,
your backyard, or whatever will set the stage for all sorts of play.


Can
> I really trust my son with this,

Yes.

>how can I do it when I myself think
> that is not good for him.

Why do you think its not good for him? Is it really what you think
and how did you arrive to this conclusion?



>On the other hand I can see how much better
> he is with those games but than again, is he not loosing a part of
> his imagination (you know all this about brain damage, loosing
> interest in books.....).

I have a feeling that kids losing interest in books has a lot more to
do with the pressure they are put under to read...not to mention
being forced to read materials they have no interest in.

>I know that if he getts his needs met with
> an active play, he will not be interested in games so much, but
right
> now I am not able to do it all day long, and I am short on other
> ideas (we bake and cook together, he loves to play with water and
> dirt, mixing stuff, making paint but it is nothing for 12 h a day.

It sounds like he is leading a great life!

> What can I do or at least how can I be not so worried with this.

Just trust. It sounds easy, but we all know its not. Just trust
him. Enjoy him and your baby and tune out all the "experts" who are
all so ready to have us believe that we are wrecking our children if
we don't do X, Y and Z. Get that worry out of your life and just
live!

Blessings to you and your little ones,

Mel




> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Katharine"
<anja_27_99@...> wrote:
>> He has little interested in playing by himself, he needs
> running and jumping and moving and with the baby I am not able to
> give him this kind of play, at least not all the time.

It might be worth investing in some more play equipment for him -
some toys for bouncing and rolling and climbing and swinging and
spinning that he can play with in the house. We have a tiny little
house and not much budget, but we've collected a bunch of stuff at
yardsales and dollar stores over the years. We sort of rotate
through toys as Mo loses interest - sometimes we have a skateboard
in the house, other times the sit-n-spin, others a big ball with a
handle for bouncing. When she was smaller we even had a small slide
in the house for awhile.

I'm not suggesting this as an *alternative* to him being on the
computer, if that's what he wants to be doing right now. But its
good to know you have options and he's not just defaulting to that
bc there's nothing else fun that keeps him close to mom.

> I know that if he getts his needs met with
> an active play, he will not be interested in games so much,

Not necessarily true - my kids are both pretty active. They find
ways to get their physical needs met *and* spend plenty of time
watching tv and playing computer and video games.

> is he not loosing a part of
> his imagination (you know all this about brain damage, loosing
> interest in books.....).

I haven't seen any evidence of brain damage or loss of imagination
with my kids. They are pretty creative, imaginative people. This
morning my 6yo was making chains of paper dolls that were gargoyles
and fairies - both of which she saw on cartoons, but is that so
terrible? She could just as easily have learned about them from a
book.

Neither of my kids are big fans of books, but I don't think tv or
games are the cause. Its more a matter of their personalities and
the ways they learn things. Ray prefers more interactive learning
and entertainment, like games, and Mo is so visually oriented that
she'd rather *see* a story than *hear* one read - and she doesn't
read well enough to get through the kinds of stories that interest
her. So watching tv and playing computer games is a way of expanding
both my kids' worlds.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

riasplace3

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...>
wrote:

> ---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)
>

You're back!!! I've missed you! : )

Ria

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Katharine"
<anja_27_99@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Everybody,
> I am reading on this list on and of for about a year. My friend
gave
> me the idea about unschooling and homeschooling and so I started
to
> get some information. Let me tell you, it is not easy to
understand
> this way of life but I am getting better, I hope lol. But now I
need
> an advice; my son ist 3,5 yo and all into computer games. He
started
> over a year ago when he saw me play Myst, so I showed him games on
> nickjr and noggin.com. In the beginning he would play once a week,
> maybe twice. But as he was getting better he wanted to play more
and
> more and I was getting worried about the time he was/is spending
in
> front of the computer. We still had our playtimes with his friend,
> playtimes with me or his dad. In January his brother was born and
> during the day I was/am not able anymore to play with him all the
> time. He has little interested in playing by himself, he needs
> running and jumping and moving and with the baby I am not able to
> give him this kind of play, at least not all the time. So he ended
up
> with the games on the computer. And I am worried, mostly because I
> think that to much screen time at his age is not good. My friend
who
> started me on the ideaof unschooling thinks the same and she is
able
> to set time limits on TV with her 2,5 yo. I tried but it would end
up
> with fighting, and this is not something that I would like to do.
Can
> I really trust my son with this, how can I do it when I myself
think
> that is not good for him. On the other hand I can see how much
better
> he is with those games but than again, is he not loosing a part of
> his imagination (you know all this about brain damage, loosing
> interest in books.....). I know that if he getts his needs met
with
> an active play, he will not be interested in games so much, but
right
> now I am not able to do it all day long, and I am short on other
> ideas (we bake and cook together, he loves to play with water and
> dirt, mixing stuff, making paint but it is nothing for 12 h a day.
> What can I do or at least how can I be not so worried with this.
Any
> help would be great.
> Katharine
> sorry for my english,I am not a native speaker
>

I caught part of a report about this on one of those cable news
channels recently. They had a pediatrician on who actually admitted
that there is no evidence that TV causes any adverse effects or
problems with physical or mental health. She basically said that if
you do other things with your children periodically like read to them
(ignoring the comment about a set bedtime) they will be fine.

Alysia

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...>
wrote:
> > I know that if he getts his needs met with
> > an active play, he will not be interested in games so much,
>
> Not necessarily true - my kids are both pretty active. They find
> ways to get their physical needs met *and* spend plenty of time
> watching tv and playing computer and video games.
>

I've been wondering about this lately...the idea of people watching
hours of TV and, therefor, not getting outside and getting physical
activity/exercise and being healthy. How much of this is tied to the
idea of the average child/adult who spends 6-8 hours a day at
school/work and only has a few hours at home before needing to go to
bed so s/he can get up and go to school/work the next day? I've read
that a lot of school time is wasteful. It doesn't really take a
child 6-8 hours to do all the work that's required but it does take
that long to wrangle all of those kids. If you were to do "school"
at home, it would take you half the time.

I experienced this when I first started homeschooling. I got a bunch
of textbooks and a guideline of what work to do and when. My son was
done with all of the daily textbook work within 2 hours. It was the
same work that was done in a 6-7 subject school day.

So, my point is that if we spend so much more time at home with our
children with everyone learning all the time, doesn't it make sense
that they could get more screen time just because they have more
time in general and still get just as much learning and physical
activity and exercise or maybe even more than if they spent 6-8
hours at school? An hour of physical exercise...that leaves about 12
hours to do whatever. So then 4 or 6 hours watching TV anb/or
playing computer games still leaves a lot of time to do other things.

Alysia

Debra Rossing

>Not necessarily true - my kids are both pretty active. They find ways
to get their physical needs met *and* spend plenty of time watching tv
and
>playing computer and video games.

LOL Granted, DS is almost 10 (not 3 anymore wahhh!), but when he plays
videogames it's like watching an aerobic workout (blessings on whoever
invented wireless game controllers!) He bounces, jumps, walks, wiggles,
bends, and in general is not sitting still - his whole self is involved.
Ever see one of those REALLY happy puppies who wags from shoulders to
tail? That'd be DS when he's playing a videogame (even a fairly calm
game like golf). For that matter, he's bouncing and moving while he's
*watching* someone else play even!
For small indoor spaces, his favorite since he was 2 is one of those
exercise trampolines - they run maybe 30 inches in diameter roughly and
stand about a hand span off the floor and are available pretty readily
and inexpensively. He'd bounce while watching TV or playing a videogame
(he could simultaneously bounce on the trampoline, move his character
and keep an eye on the other characters all at the same time - it
boggled my mind since it was about all I could do to simply keep from
repeatedly bumping into walls!)


Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Musolff

***
> > I know that if he getts his needs met with
> > an active play, he will not be interested in games so much,
>
> Not necessarily true - my kids are both pretty active. They find
> ways to get their physical needs met *and* spend plenty of time
> watching tv and playing computer and video games.
>
if we spend so much more time at home with our
children with everyone learning all the time, doesn't it make sense
that they could get more screen time just because they have more
time in general and still get just as much learning and physical
activity and exercise or maybe even more than if they spent 6-8
hours at school? ***

I've wondered about this too. The recommended "hour" of tv a day, just
seems so limiting, especially if children have ALL DAY to explore and
learn!

But I do still wonder about the addiction factor. My 6yo seems to be almost
addicted to the computer/tv. He doesn't take much interest in anything else
lately. Even things he used to love! He actually said to me the other day,
"Mommy, I wish I liked board games again, so I could play with you guys."
He's a pretty shy kid, and I feel like sometimes he doesn't want to go
places with us, because it's easier to just stay home and play on the
computer than to have to deal with other people. Any way I put it, it just
never sounds fun to get out and play (even if there are no other people
involved). Has this happened with anyone else? Will it get better?

Kim



On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 10:05 PM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:

> --- In [email protected]<unschoolingbasics%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Meredith" <meredith@...>
> wrote:
> > > I know that if he getts his needs met with
> > > an active play, he will not be interested in games so much,
> >
> > Not necessarily true - my kids are both pretty active. They find
> > ways to get their physical needs met *and* spend plenty of time
> > watching tv and playing computer and video games.
> >
>
> I've been wondering about this lately...the idea of people watching
> hours of TV and, therefor, not getting outside and getting physical
> activity/exercise and being healthy. How much of this is tied to the
> idea of the average child/adult who spends 6-8 hours a day at
> school/work and only has a few hours at home before needing to go to
> bed so s/he can get up and go to school/work the next day? I've read
> that a lot of school time is wasteful. It doesn't really take a
> child 6-8 hours to do all the work that's required but it does take
> that long to wrangle all of those kids. If you were to do "school"
> at home, it would take you half the time.
>
> I experienced this when I first started homeschooling. I got a bunch
> of textbooks and a guideline of what work to do and when. My son was
> done with all of the daily textbook work within 2 hours. It was the
> same work that was done in a 6-7 subject school day.
>
> So, my point is that if we spend so much more time at home with our
> children with everyone learning all the time, doesn't it make sense
> that they could get more screen time just because they have more
> time in general and still get just as much learning and physical
> activity and exercise or maybe even more than if they spent 6-8
> hours at school? An hour of physical exercise...that leaves about 12
> hours to do whatever. So then 4 or 6 hours watching TV anb/or
> playing computer games still leaves a lot of time to do other things.
>
> Alysia
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 22, 2008, at 1:32 AM, Kim Musolff wrote:

> But I do still wonder about the addiction factor. My 6yo seems to
> be almost
> addicted to the computer/tv.

Passions can look and feel like addictions.

But it's not. If TV and video games were addicting, then unschooled
kids would be addicted.

Plenty of unschooled kids have gone through periods of high use, but
the none have shown the long term effects of addiction: needing more
and greater fixes, and so on.

Try reading the following. Scroll down, it's the last on, it starts
with "Hi" I went into TV and addiction pretty thoroughly.

Arguments against arguments against TV
http://tinyurl.com/2kprgh

And to see it clearly, he's not watching TV or the computer. He's not
turning the TV on and watching whatever comes on. Same with the
computer. He's using both to find things that interest him. They're
access portals. Just like libraries are access portals to books.

Rather than looking at the box he's looking at, sit with him and see
what he explores and talk about what's interesting him. Don't sit
with the idea of getting him off, but of immersing in the world with
him. Understand the draw so he has someone to talk to who understands.

Find *more* that he can do with what draws him. Boy, did I know a lot
about Pokemon when my daughter was that age ;-) We were immersed in a
world of Pokemon. But don't see it as a way of pulling him from
something but as expanding on interests that are already there. If he
feels you pulling, he's likely to hold on tighter.

> He doesn't take much interest in anything else
> lately. Even things he used to love!

Passions can be that way. And they do eat up a lot of time!

One thing about TV is that kids can feel trapped by the TV station's
schedule. They feel they need to be in front of the TV when the
stations show the child's favorite programs. And what episode of the
program the stations show can feel random, so there's an even more
compelling reason to stick around.

TiVo/DVRs can be great for that. Series can be set to record and then
the shows can be watched anytime the child wants.

Before they were invented, I put in VHS tapes to record programs so
my daughter felt free to leave the TV. Very often she didn't bother
watching the show she'd taped. What she wanted was to be in control
of what and when. You can also buy many series on DVD. (Check Amazon
for used copies.)

It might help to read books about passionate people so he can see
he's not alone :-)

> He actually said to me the other day,
> "Mommy, I wish I liked board games again, so I could play with you
> guys."

It could be a sign that he's getting ready to move on. It may take a
while still.

Reassure him that passions can be all consuming. Ask him if he'd like
to start ex

> He's a pretty shy kid, and I feel like sometimes he doesn't want to go
> places with us, because it's easier to just stay home and play on the
> computer than to have to deal with other people.

And if you were a social person and someone wanted you to stay at
home and play on the computer but you *really* didn't like it, would
it make you love computers if they made you?

I think people see "shy" and computers and project that into the
future of adult children living in their parents' basement with only
the internet for company. But all those people were conventionally
parented. And all those kids were forced to socialize from a young
age, weren't they?

Well, yeah, the thinking might go, but they're extreme cases. And
there would have been a lot more except for parents pushing. And
parent who believe that spanking and tight control creates upstanding
young adults, believe that they didn't spank enough and weren't
controlling enough when their kids rebel.

It's just a trap to project some fuzzy theory into some fuzzy future.
Without a "control group" -- kids that weren't pressured to be social
-- there's no way of separating the effects of the pressure from the
shyness.

But unschoolers can ;-) We're the control group.

As a shy person, I can tell you the very best thing you can do for
him is support who he is and allow him to come to society in his own
way. If he needs to hang back and watch, let him hang back and watch.
If he needs to be only with the family, let him grow in security that
he's whole and loved and you'll nurture confidence. By pushing him
beyond his comfort zone you're whittling away his confidence. He
*will* reach out when he's ready if you don't make him feel broken,
if you don't make society feel like it's something scary that he
needs to brave.

Joyce

Kim Musolff

*** I think people see "shy" and computers and project that into the
future of adult children living in their parents' basement with only
the internet for company. But all those people were conventionally
parented. And all those kids were forced to socialize from a young
age, weren't they?***

This is true! I hadn't really thought about it, but now that you mention
it, this is one of my fears. My uncle is like this, and my biggest fear is
having him turn out like this. But you are right--my uncle was not
unschooled. My son is.

Kim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Kim Musolff"
<kmoose75@...> wrote:
> He doesn't take much interest in anything else
> lately. Even things he used to love! He actually said to me the
other day,
> "Mommy, I wish I liked board games again, so I could play with you
guys."

Are there games you can play together on the computer? Can you look
into getting some new board games? Maybe there's some other new
activity y'all can do together.

He's saying "I want to connect more" and he's looking for a way to
do that - but he doesn't enjoy the way y'all *used* to connect - why
should he? People change, and especially kids. He might like
something new. Or he might be looking for a way to say "I wish you'd
play Super Smash Mario with me" that won't get his feelings hurt if
you say "I don't want to play your favorite game with you".

> He's a pretty shy kid, and I feel like sometimes he doesn't want
to go
> places with us, because it's easier to just stay home and play on
the
> computer than to have to deal with other people.

Do you have a laptop or hand-held game? That could be a really
useful tool for stepping outside his comfort zone. Mo often likes to
watch tv or a movie when we go visiting - and often not the whole
time. She just needs a little something to help her transition to
being around people, and a way to get a break from people.

If your guy is kind of an introvert, its good to understand that
dealing with other people takes effort on his part - it uses energy
whereas being alone recharges his batteries. So finding ways for him
to get some "space" going out may be helpful. And tv/movies/games
can do that in the way reading a chapter of a book might do that for
someone else.

Or, your guy may just be totally passionate about games right now
and want to play them All the Time. A game he can take with him lets
him have his cake and eat it - he could play at the park! at the
beach! in the woods! Don't flinch! Its not inherently worse than a
kid wanting to bring a book.

---Meredith (who always brought books camping and to the beach, much
to her parents chagrin)

keetry

--- In [email protected], "Debra Rossing"
<debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
> For small indoor spaces, his favorite since he was 2 is one of
those
> exercise trampolines - they run maybe 30 inches in diameter
roughly and
> stand about a hand span off the floor and are available pretty
readily
> and inexpensively. He'd bounce while watching TV or playing a
videogame
> (he could simultaneously bounce on the trampoline, move his
character
> and keep an eye on the other characters all at the same time - it
> boggled my mind since it was about all I could do to simply keep
from
> repeatedly bumping into walls!)
>
>
> Deb


This is such a great idea! How many adults get stationary bikes or
treadmills so they can exercise indoors and usually have a TV to
watch while doing so? I wish I had the space to do this since I
don't get out to exercise as much as I used to.

Alysia

barefootmamax4

>
> if we spend so much more time at home with our
> children with everyone learning all the time, doesn't it make sense
> that they could get more screen time just because they have more
> time in general and still get just as much learning and physical
> activity and exercise or maybe even more than if they spent 6-8
> hours at school? ***

This was a wonderful perspective for me. Nobody seems too concerned
with kids sitting at desks in school all day with an hour for gym
class.Kids who spend 4-6 hours watching TV, gaming or on the computer
are still sitting for the same amount of time ,so it is certainly no
worse. They do have the added benefits of choosing to get up and get a
drink, go to the bathroom, get a snack,talk whenever they want or need
to, just plain quit doing it and also having subject matter they are
actually interested in! 6 hours of computer looks so different in this
light.
-Kelly

Alyson

You don't need a lot of room - we put our small exercise trampoline
right in the middle of the crowded family room, or in the hallway,
where it fits with a couple inches to spare. We have to step over/on
it, but every time the kids pass into the room they jump 10-20 times
so it's a small inconvenience for the added enjoyment they get from it :-)

> >
> > For small indoor spaces, his favorite since he was 2 is one of
> those
> > exercise trampolines
> >
> This is such a great idea! ...I wish I had the space to do this
since > I don't get out to exercise as much as I used to.
>