breaking limits
Claudia
hi everyone,
I've never introduced myself. I've been lurking since Dec and gaining
lots of information. I have a dd8 and ds7. We've been unschooling
since Sept. We did 'school at home' before that.
I've been following the thread about setting limits and was hoping I
could expand the topic a little more. What do you do when you child
will not accept or follow the limits? She is great at following
limits/rules when she is not angry. When she gets angry, she hides
her anger and secretly destroys things. We are not a family that ever
hides our anger. She sees us handle our anger in appropriate ways.
I guess the bigger question is, how do I get her to let out her anger
in a healthy way if she avoids me and refuses to talk about it later?
I've tried talking to her when she is not angry. She's been in
therapy (we left because it was no longer helpful). She said when she
is angry, she just wants to make everyone around her as angry as she
is. She likes being angry and destroying things. I wish this was a
phase that I could wait out, but she's been doing it since she was 5
and shows no signs of stopping. Any suggestions?
Claudia
I've never introduced myself. I've been lurking since Dec and gaining
lots of information. I have a dd8 and ds7. We've been unschooling
since Sept. We did 'school at home' before that.
I've been following the thread about setting limits and was hoping I
could expand the topic a little more. What do you do when you child
will not accept or follow the limits? She is great at following
limits/rules when she is not angry. When she gets angry, she hides
her anger and secretly destroys things. We are not a family that ever
hides our anger. She sees us handle our anger in appropriate ways.
I guess the bigger question is, how do I get her to let out her anger
in a healthy way if she avoids me and refuses to talk about it later?
I've tried talking to her when she is not angry. She's been in
therapy (we left because it was no longer helpful). She said when she
is angry, she just wants to make everyone around her as angry as she
is. She likes being angry and destroying things. I wish this was a
phase that I could wait out, but she's been doing it since she was 5
and shows no signs of stopping. Any suggestions?
Claudia
Karen Swanay
What happened/changed when she was 5?
Karen
Karen
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Claudia <fun4gpc@...> wrote:
She said when she
> is angry, she just wants to make everyone around her as angry as she
> is. She likes being angry and destroying things. I wish this was a
> phase that I could wait out, but she's been doing it since she was 5
> and shows no signs of stopping. Any suggestions?
> Claudia
--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."
- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul
http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 9, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Claudia wrote:
philosophy if you can give us a context to put it in.
things is satisfying and empowering. When she's angry at limitations
she feels powerless and out of control.
But imagine being powerless and *then* having the power to destroy
things and control the emotions of those around you. It's sort of
like a superpower :-)
Empowerment is a good solution to that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What do you do when you childCan you give specific examples? It's a lot easier to explain the
> will not accept or follow the limits?
philosophy if you can give us a context to put it in.
> She said when sheI'm betting what she means is that making people angry and destroying
> is angry, she just wants to make everyone around her as angry as she
> is. She likes being angry and destroying things.
things is satisfying and empowering. When she's angry at limitations
she feels powerless and out of control.
But imagine being powerless and *then* having the power to destroy
things and control the emotions of those around you. It's sort of
like a superpower :-)
Empowerment is a good solution to that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claudia W
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
I'm betting what she means is that making people angry and destroying
things is satisfying and empowering. When she's angry at limitations
she feels powerless and out of control.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, it is exactly empowerment. She refuses to budge on her first thought. She wants her way or no other way. She sees CL as a weakness in dh and I.
First, let me say, these are isolated incidents, because she mostly gets what she wants, from me anyway. Here's an example (I'm sorry I knew I should have put in an example, I don't know what I was thinking)
DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. They built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just that coat, period. So she got angry and went inside. I followed to see if I could help her and protect the contents of the house. She slammed the door and told me to go away. I wanted to be in the house, so I went in the garage door. She screamed at me and told me to get out of the house. That option did not work for me. She started grabbing things and throwing. I waited patiently and tried to stop her from destroying things. After her fit, she stormed upstairs. She took a marker and started marking on our sheets. Then she came downstairs, said she was sorry. I told her she didn't need to be sorry. I loved her and I
understood that she didn't know any better way to get out her anger. I told her I would like to help her find better ways and she said she didn't feel like talking. She sneaked out into the garage and got some gum out of her dad's car, chewed it, then went upstairs and put it on our headboard of our bed. I figured it out about 15 minutes too late.
How do I get out of the cycle of her demanding everything she wants, me being as nice as I can and her taking advantage and back stabbing? I'm trying to be kind all the time, but I'm starting to feel foolish. If I try to stand my ground, it's world war 3. I just don't know where to draw the line on kindness and how to handle physical confrontation. What do I do if she starts throwing glasses at the kitchen window?
I can't tell when she is angry because she hides it. I offer to help. She says she wants help and then says she hates talking. She told me she will say anything to get out of talking to me about what she wants (I'm not sure she knows). How do I help if she doesn't want to talk? She contradicts herself constantly... in the same conversation. How can I be consensual if she claims the only thing she consistently wants is to make us all angry and miserable like her?
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm betting what she means is that making people angry and destroying
things is satisfying and empowering. When she's angry at limitations
she feels powerless and out of control.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, it is exactly empowerment. She refuses to budge on her first thought. She wants her way or no other way. She sees CL as a weakness in dh and I.
First, let me say, these are isolated incidents, because she mostly gets what she wants, from me anyway. Here's an example (I'm sorry I knew I should have put in an example, I don't know what I was thinking)
DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. They built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just that coat, period. So she got angry and went inside. I followed to see if I could help her and protect the contents of the house. She slammed the door and told me to go away. I wanted to be in the house, so I went in the garage door. She screamed at me and told me to get out of the house. That option did not work for me. She started grabbing things and throwing. I waited patiently and tried to stop her from destroying things. After her fit, she stormed upstairs. She took a marker and started marking on our sheets. Then she came downstairs, said she was sorry. I told her she didn't need to be sorry. I loved her and I
understood that she didn't know any better way to get out her anger. I told her I would like to help her find better ways and she said she didn't feel like talking. She sneaked out into the garage and got some gum out of her dad's car, chewed it, then went upstairs and put it on our headboard of our bed. I figured it out about 15 minutes too late.
How do I get out of the cycle of her demanding everything she wants, me being as nice as I can and her taking advantage and back stabbing? I'm trying to be kind all the time, but I'm starting to feel foolish. If I try to stand my ground, it's world war 3. I just don't know where to draw the line on kindness and how to handle physical confrontation. What do I do if she starts throwing glasses at the kitchen window?
I can't tell when she is angry because she hides it. I offer to help. She says she wants help and then says she hates talking. She told me she will say anything to get out of talking to me about what she wants (I'm not sure she knows). How do I help if she doesn't want to talk? She contradicts herself constantly... in the same conversation. How can I be consensual if she claims the only thing she consistently wants is to make us all angry and miserable like her?
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I told her she
didn't need to be sorry. I loved her and I
understood that she didn't know any better way to get out her anger.~~
Is that ALL you said? Because I would certainly NOT be ok with someone
marking up my sheets. I wouldn't have a problem letting them know that
this is not ok with me! If you're just being sweet and not letting her
know where your boundaries are, then there may be issues with her
feeling like she isn't getting real help when she feels out of control.
You can let someone know they are loved AND that certain things are
not ok at the same time. It almost sounds like you are afraid of her,
or afraid to say no to her. Is that the case?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
didn't need to be sorry. I loved her and I
understood that she didn't know any better way to get out her anger.~~
Is that ALL you said? Because I would certainly NOT be ok with someone
marking up my sheets. I wouldn't have a problem letting them know that
this is not ok with me! If you're just being sweet and not letting her
know where your boundaries are, then there may be issues with her
feeling like she isn't getting real help when she feels out of control.
You can let someone know they are loved AND that certain things are
not ok at the same time. It almost sounds like you are afraid of her,
or afraid to say no to her. Is that the case?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Claudia W
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
You can let someone know they are loved AND that certain things are
not ok at the same time. It almost sounds like you are afraid of her,
or afraid to say no to her. Is that the case?
~~~~~~~~~~
Ren, I'm not afraid of her, but I'm afraid of hurting her. I went through so many years of punishing her. Time outs, push ups, taking away 'priveledges'. I just never want to do that again, but I don't know how to get her to stop. I'm fine with her testing me to make sure I'm not going to do it again, but I feel like it has gone beyond that.
I genuinely think she is miserable and does not even know what she wants. After her brother made out a christmas list last year, she copied his exactly and added 1 thing. When christmas came and she got everything on her list, she was miserable. She hated it all. She was so jealous of the thought that her brother would have things she didn't, but she had no idea what she wanted.
She doesn't know what she wants. So she doesn't want to talk about it. And I don't know where to go from here.
So you have to have that ARGH gathering in April. <shameless grin>
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You can let someone know they are loved AND that certain things are
not ok at the same time. It almost sounds like you are afraid of her,
or afraid to say no to her. Is that the case?
~~~~~~~~~~
Ren, I'm not afraid of her, but I'm afraid of hurting her. I went through so many years of punishing her. Time outs, push ups, taking away 'priveledges'. I just never want to do that again, but I don't know how to get her to stop. I'm fine with her testing me to make sure I'm not going to do it again, but I feel like it has gone beyond that.
I genuinely think she is miserable and does not even know what she wants. After her brother made out a christmas list last year, she copied his exactly and added 1 thing. When christmas came and she got everything on her list, she was miserable. She hated it all. She was so jealous of the thought that her brother would have things she didn't, but she had no idea what she wanted.
She doesn't know what she wants. So she doesn't want to talk about it. And I don't know where to go from here.
So you have to have that ARGH gathering in April. <shameless grin>
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I'm fine with her testing me to make sure I'm not going to do it
again, but I feel like it has gone beyond that.~~
Hmmmm....she is probably doing a lot of healing. She is also probably
feeling a bit lost and unsure of you at this point. In a sense, you
pulled the rug out from under her because she doesn't know what to
expect perhaps.
Can you stay with her when she's melting down and angry? So she has
you right there until the process is complete? She's really angry at
her parents it seems like...so this might be a part of her healing.
She might be trying to hurt you back for some of the hurt she
experienced before but is unable to put it into words just yet.
I have found that with Jalen, we couldn't communicate during the storm
but we could go with the flow. If he felt like throwing something,
we'd hand him safe items to throw. If he wanted to hit or strike out,
I'd pick up a pillow or rice bag and yell "hit it!!" and it really
helped him work through that energy and get back to a place of balance
much faster than trying to calm him down.
Could you make a "high energy" area for her? A place with a punching
bag or bean bags to throw, a wall to draw on? Things that might seem
destructive normally are great in an area designed to accomodate that.
You could even keep some small items from the dollar store that she
could smash or destroy. This could be helpful until she's ready to put
some of this into words.
What happens when you reflect back to her? "You seem really angry
right now" or "Wow, that upset you". You have to find words that fit
the situation and personality, but how does she respond to you simply
listening and absorbing her anger?
As far as finding herself again and what she loves, it might take some
time. She might have some sensory challenges or other issues that she
has no words for. Some people just FEEL things more intensely and when
something feels "off" they just don't have the tools or words for what
is happening yet. It isn't easy to find ways to support someone
through that process but I think you're on the right track.
And yes, I need to get working on the ARGH gathering! There's nothing
like live support to give encouragement.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
again, but I feel like it has gone beyond that.~~
Hmmmm....she is probably doing a lot of healing. She is also probably
feeling a bit lost and unsure of you at this point. In a sense, you
pulled the rug out from under her because she doesn't know what to
expect perhaps.
Can you stay with her when she's melting down and angry? So she has
you right there until the process is complete? She's really angry at
her parents it seems like...so this might be a part of her healing.
She might be trying to hurt you back for some of the hurt she
experienced before but is unable to put it into words just yet.
I have found that with Jalen, we couldn't communicate during the storm
but we could go with the flow. If he felt like throwing something,
we'd hand him safe items to throw. If he wanted to hit or strike out,
I'd pick up a pillow or rice bag and yell "hit it!!" and it really
helped him work through that energy and get back to a place of balance
much faster than trying to calm him down.
Could you make a "high energy" area for her? A place with a punching
bag or bean bags to throw, a wall to draw on? Things that might seem
destructive normally are great in an area designed to accomodate that.
You could even keep some small items from the dollar store that she
could smash or destroy. This could be helpful until she's ready to put
some of this into words.
What happens when you reflect back to her? "You seem really angry
right now" or "Wow, that upset you". You have to find words that fit
the situation and personality, but how does she respond to you simply
listening and absorbing her anger?
As far as finding herself again and what she loves, it might take some
time. She might have some sensory challenges or other issues that she
has no words for. Some people just FEEL things more intensely and when
something feels "off" they just don't have the tools or words for what
is happening yet. It isn't easy to find ways to support someone
through that process but I think you're on the right track.
And yes, I need to get working on the ARGH gathering! There's nothing
like live support to give encouragement.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
bhmjones
> She doesn't know what she wants. So she doesn't want to talk aboutit. And I don't know where to go from here.
It sounds like she is screaming for some direction. Ren is correct, you
have most likely thrown her for a loop with your 180 in the way you
treat her. Immature minds do not know precisely how to handle changes
like that so they'll turn to extreme behaviour patterns to extract what
they need. This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
Claudia W
Can you stay with her when she's melting down and angry? So she has
you right there until the process is complete?
~She will let me if she is not mad at me. I do that. I sit outside her door to give her privacy and let her know I'm there if she needs me. I tell her that I am here for her and I will go if she wants me to. She can't tell me to stay (ask for help), but she will not tell me to go (making me think she wants me there).
She might be trying to hurt you back for some of the hurt she
experienced before but is unable to put it into words just yet.
~Maybe, but she says she is afraid to hurt me physically. She knows that she has hurt me a lot too. I think she does feel guilty about it as well. When I suggest she let her anger out, she is afraid to because she doesn't want to hurt me. I suggested pillows and such, but she said that feels silly to her. She seems to be destroying to feel powerful, so it has to genuinely hurt someone else emotionally. I've already said, "if that's what you need to do to let out your anger, go ahead." That really diffuses the situation. She said it ruins it for her. The problem is that I can't always say that. She knows when I'm bluffing.
Could you make a "high energy" area for her?
~We have a punching bag, mattress/boxspring to jump on, park and rec center in walking distance. I do think part of it is her needing to let out energy. The problem is that she is choosing TV instead of activity. If I ask her to do something active, she declines. We had two days of gorgeous weather and she never came outside. Ds and I were out there the whole time!
What happens when you reflect back to her?
~She HATES that. Originally she would look at me and say, "well, duh! I'm not stupid, but you are." Now, it just fuels her anger. She'll take my reflection and magnify it. I just feel like I can't find the right words. The less I say the better, but sometimes I have to say things like, "put the glass down." She challenges me, forcing me to grab the glass. Then it becomes a fight for the glass. That's what I want to avoid before it gets that far, but the words are eluding me.
Thanks for your suggestions. I'm gonna see what I can do to make activity more interesting. I don't mind that she is watching TV, I just know that is not making her happy. She's usually a very active and social kid, and she seems to be choosing tv out of boredom. I've suggested things around the house until I was blue in the face and she is not interested. I think I'm going to need to look outside to find something for her.
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
you right there until the process is complete?
~She will let me if she is not mad at me. I do that. I sit outside her door to give her privacy and let her know I'm there if she needs me. I tell her that I am here for her and I will go if she wants me to. She can't tell me to stay (ask for help), but she will not tell me to go (making me think she wants me there).
She might be trying to hurt you back for some of the hurt she
experienced before but is unable to put it into words just yet.
~Maybe, but she says she is afraid to hurt me physically. She knows that she has hurt me a lot too. I think she does feel guilty about it as well. When I suggest she let her anger out, she is afraid to because she doesn't want to hurt me. I suggested pillows and such, but she said that feels silly to her. She seems to be destroying to feel powerful, so it has to genuinely hurt someone else emotionally. I've already said, "if that's what you need to do to let out your anger, go ahead." That really diffuses the situation. She said it ruins it for her. The problem is that I can't always say that. She knows when I'm bluffing.
Could you make a "high energy" area for her?
~We have a punching bag, mattress/boxspring to jump on, park and rec center in walking distance. I do think part of it is her needing to let out energy. The problem is that she is choosing TV instead of activity. If I ask her to do something active, she declines. We had two days of gorgeous weather and she never came outside. Ds and I were out there the whole time!
What happens when you reflect back to her?
~She HATES that. Originally she would look at me and say, "well, duh! I'm not stupid, but you are." Now, it just fuels her anger. She'll take my reflection and magnify it. I just feel like I can't find the right words. The less I say the better, but sometimes I have to say things like, "put the glass down." She challenges me, forcing me to grab the glass. Then it becomes a fight for the glass. That's what I want to avoid before it gets that far, but the words are eluding me.
Thanks for your suggestions. I'm gonna see what I can do to make activity more interesting. I don't mind that she is watching TV, I just know that is not making her happy. She's usually a very active and social kid, and she seems to be choosing tv out of boredom. I've suggested things around the house until I was blue in the face and she is not interested. I think I'm going to need to look outside to find something for her.
Claudia
http://gpwthread.blogspot.com/
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." ~John Irving
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
swissarmy_wife
> DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. TheyIt sounds like right here is where she got you. I am going to guess
>built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman
>and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell
>over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get
>her shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever.
that you were throwing out these ideas in hopes that she did not
meltdown. When these anger issues would come up with my son, I found
that empathizing first ("oh bummer! It's doesn't fit. that really
stinks!") and asking him to figure out what to do next worked a
little better than throwing out a bunch of ideas. (not always but
sometimes) That way, it was still HIS idea and he still felt in
control. This took practice though. :-)
>She wanted just that coat, period. So she got angry and went inside.At this point, I wouldn't wait patiently. With my older son, I warned
>I followed to see if I could help her and protect the contents of
>the house. She slammed the door and told me to go away. I wanted to
>be in the house, so I went in the garage door. She screamed at me
>and told me to get out of the house. That option did not work for
>me. She started grabbing things and throwing. I waited patiently
>and tried to stop her from destroying things.
him once and told him "I will NOT let you destroy [insert thing here].
And if he truly was destroying things I would physically stop him. I
don't know how unschooly or proper that is. But there was no way I
would allow him (or anyone else for that matter) to come in and
destroy things in our house. I never hurt him, or used any force
beyond keeping myself and him safe. And he knew very quickly that
being destructive wasn't the best way to get his point across. We
often waited until things were calm to discuss other options. For
example, "I see that when you're angry you need to be alone, but I
feel that I can't trust you around [insert stuff in house here] when
you destroy things. How can we work that out?" I don't remember the
exact conversations, but something along those lines.
>After her fit, she stormed upstairs. She took a marker and startedShe apologized on her own, and you told basically told her it wasn't
>marking on our sheets. Then she came downstairs, said she was sorry.
>I told her she didn't need to be sorry.
the right thing to do. That's similar to saying "that's ok" when
someone apologizes. It's NOT ok. Say "thank you" or "I appreciate
your apology".
>I loved her and I understood that she didn't know any better way toKnowing how sensitive my son was with words, if I had said that to
>get out her anger. I told her I would like to help her find better
>ways and she said she didn't feel like talking. She sneaked out into
>the garage and got some gum out of her dad's car, chewed it, then
>went upstairs and put it on our headboard of our bed. I figured it
>out about 15 minutes too late.
him... he would have heard "I love you". Good. But then he would
have heard, "you don't know any better." And that would have set him
off again. He still does that with my words sometimes. It's hard to
be clear. Would it be wrong to let her know that what she is doing is
making you angry/upset/tired or [insert emotion here]? Wouldn't it be
better to be more realistic here, than to try and be "nice". That's a
question I have as well.
> How do I get out of the cycle of her demanding everything she wants,You don't have to be as kind/nice as you can. I'm not suggesting you
>me being as nice as I can and her taking advantage and back stabbing?
>I'm trying to be kind all the time, but I'm starting to feel
>foolish. If I try to stand my ground, it's world war 3. I just
>don't know where to draw the line on kindness and how to handle
>physical confrontation. What do I do if she starts throwing glasses
>at the kitchen window?
be mean. I'm just saying, when you child is going bonkers and putting
herself and others in danger it's time for action. When she starts
throwing glasses at the kitchen window you can/should/need to
physically stop her and yell "NO, I won't let you do that!"
Unschooling and peaceful parenting does not mean hands off and
everybody talks in a nice calm voice 24/7. People have emotions and
reactions. Even you. It's your job to keep her and others safe.
> I can't tell when she is angry because she hides it. I offer toTalking too much drives some kids nuts! You know the husband that
>help. She says she wants help and then says she hates talking. She
>told me she will say anything to get out of talking to me about what
>she wants (I'm not sure she knows).
complains about nagging wife? It's usually because when his wife
wants/needs something she goes on for an hour about something. Same
idea. Mine doesn't like to talk unless he initiates it. Usually I
just listen. Ask HER what sort of helps she wants.
>How do I help if she doesn't want to talk? She contradicts herselfBy just being there. How about just listening without commenting? In
>constantly... in the same conversation. How can I be consensual if
>she claims the only thing she consistently wants is to make us all
>angry and miserable like her?
the heat of the moment or even directly afterward isn't always the
best time for you to be talking, but she may have loads to get off her
chest. How about having a snack together later in the day or the next
day and having a chat? How about asking her questions, and see if she
has any ideas. Let her know she's affecting others and see if she
comes up with ideas. She might not come up with any. You're out of
ideas. Maybe she has some. Maybe she wants to be held not talked to?
I like Ren's idea of having a safe place to retreat to and get some
anger and energy out. She sounds FULL of it! Is she distractable?
Distraction is sometimes a good way to bring her back to you. I think
its works better with the young ones though.
These are just things I have found myself doing with my highly
physical son. He's 9 now, much better with his emotions, and a
wrestler on a team instead of with his mom. LOL I'm actually hoping
Kelly or someone will read this and comment on what I wrote here. It
is sounding a bit harsh. But I feel that personal safety is extremely
important and needs to addressed very fast and seriously before
someone catches a glass to the head. I also wondering why you feel
that it's not ok for you to be angry? How could your child possibly
learn to deal with her anger if you aren't dealing with yours?
hbmccarty
My family really doesn't like it at all when I reflect, either. Why are
you talking in that weird way, mom. Being quiet with them or even just
giving space works better- or just saying yes or making a small sound.
I think that when someone is really angry there is not much I can do
besides not add fuel. Talking is most always best done later, when
everyone calms down.
My daughter used to throw things and break things when angry, up to
about age 9. I would hold her gently, from behind, until she was ready
to stop, which wouldn't take too long. I would do this only when
necessary. She did break many of her own things, though. She would throw
most everything in her room on the floor. A friend who worked at a
violent youth offender facility once showed me a way to hold a child by
sitting behind, arms and legs wrapped around them. I would say-
something like: You can be angry, but I am not going to allow you to
break things and will hold you until you are ready to stop. I don't know
either if this is recommended unschooling practice but it sure worked
better than yelling or trying to fight her to get things away from her.
Have you read the book "The Explosive Child"?- I think it has been
recommended on this list before and certainly on others- This one really
helped me a lot in understanding her and with tools for reducing
conflict situations, and though it seemed really hard along the way
things are much easier now. Saying yes as much as possible has made the
times that a real limit comes up much more tolerable for her- she trusts
that I am doing what I can to help. She is still angry, disappointed,
but the intensity is way less. Offering solutions often doesn't really
help though I still have the tendency to do it. She will often figure
out something later that meets the need.
Heather
Claudia W wrote:
you talking in that weird way, mom. Being quiet with them or even just
giving space works better- or just saying yes or making a small sound.
I think that when someone is really angry there is not much I can do
besides not add fuel. Talking is most always best done later, when
everyone calms down.
My daughter used to throw things and break things when angry, up to
about age 9. I would hold her gently, from behind, until she was ready
to stop, which wouldn't take too long. I would do this only when
necessary. She did break many of her own things, though. She would throw
most everything in her room on the floor. A friend who worked at a
violent youth offender facility once showed me a way to hold a child by
sitting behind, arms and legs wrapped around them. I would say-
something like: You can be angry, but I am not going to allow you to
break things and will hold you until you are ready to stop. I don't know
either if this is recommended unschooling practice but it sure worked
better than yelling or trying to fight her to get things away from her.
Have you read the book "The Explosive Child"?- I think it has been
recommended on this list before and certainly on others- This one really
helped me a lot in understanding her and with tools for reducing
conflict situations, and though it seemed really hard along the way
things are much easier now. Saying yes as much as possible has made the
times that a real limit comes up much more tolerable for her- she trusts
that I am doing what I can to help. She is still angry, disappointed,
but the intensity is way less. Offering solutions often doesn't really
help though I still have the tendency to do it. She will often figure
out something later that meets the need.
Heather
Claudia W wrote:
>
> What happens when you reflect back to her?
>
> ~She HATES that. Originally she would look at me and say, "well, duh!
> I'm not stupid, but you are." Now, it just fuels her anger. She'll
> take my reflection and magnify it. I just feel like I can't find the
> right words. The less I say the better, but sometimes I have to say
> things like, "put the glass down." She challenges me, forcing me to
> grab the glass. Then it becomes a fight for the glass. That's what I
> want to avoid before it gets that far, but the words are eluding me.
>
swissarmy_wife
I think it is called passive restraint?
Yeah, I don't know if it is unschooly or not. But in my situation it
was necessary. My oldest son had given me one too many fat lips and
burises not do it. Their came a time when he actively sought it out
too. For some reason he found it safe to "freak out" in my arms.
I think it is generally used in severe cases. Our situation, when he
was younger, was severe. My son would literally black out from anger
when he was younger and cause an awful lot of harm to himself and us.
If you could picture a child screaming like he had just broken his
leg, running around his room aimlessly banging into things, hurting
himself on purpose, and trying to hurt me on purpose. He truly was,
emotionally and physically safer in our arms. I hated it though. I
really, really hated it. :-(
Yeah, I don't know if it is unschooly or not. But in my situation it
was necessary. My oldest son had given me one too many fat lips and
burises not do it. Their came a time when he actively sought it out
too. For some reason he found it safe to "freak out" in my arms.
I think it is generally used in severe cases. Our situation, when he
was younger, was severe. My son would literally black out from anger
when he was younger and cause an awful lot of harm to himself and us.
If you could picture a child screaming like he had just broken his
leg, running around his room aimlessly banging into things, hurting
himself on purpose, and trying to hurt me on purpose. He truly was,
emotionally and physically safer in our arms. I hated it though. I
really, really hated it. :-(
> My daughter used to throw things and break things when angry, up tothrow
> about age 9. I would hold her gently, from behind, until she was ready
> to stop, which wouldn't take too long. I would do this only when
> necessary. She did break many of her own things, though. She would
> most everything in her room on the floor. A friend who worked at a
> violent youth offender facility once showed me a way to hold a child by
> sitting behind, arms and legs wrapped around them. I would say-
> something like: You can be angry, but I am not going to allow you to
> break things and will hold you until you are ready to stop.
swissarmy_wife
I forgot to mention...
I second this book recommendation. It really helped me sort out the
issues, into dealing with the important safety issue first. It helped
me let go of the things that "bothered me" but weren't in need of
immediate attention.
- the other Heather :-)
I second this book recommendation. It really helped me sort out the
issues, into dealing with the important safety issue first. It helped
me let go of the things that "bothered me" but weren't in need of
immediate attention.
- the other Heather :-)
> Have you read the book "The Explosive Child"?- I think it has beenreally
> recommended on this list before and certainly on others- This one
> helped me a lot in understanding her and with tools for reducingtrusts
> conflict situations, and though it seemed really hard along the way
> things are much easier now. Saying yes as much as possible has made the
> times that a real limit comes up much more tolerable for her- she
> that I am doing what I can to help. She is still angry, disappointed,
> but the intensity is way less. Offering solutions often doesn't really
> help though I still have the tendency to do it. She will often figure
> out something later that meets the need.
>
> Heather
carenkh
~~~DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. They
built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman
and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell
over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her
shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just
that coat, period.~~~
Snow is a very forgiving medium. Why not start again? Or, if the
others weren't willing to do that, why not brainstorm ways that the
coat could fit? (carving the snowman down, etc.) It sounds a bit like
them vs. her - She can't have HER way! It would ruin what WE did!
Apologies if it wasn't like that, that's just how it struck me. Taking
a few minutes to talk over ways to get *that* coat on *that* snowman
would have saved so much angst.
For me, remembering 1) to breathe and 2) there's *always* a consensual
solution, helps me slow down and take a minute to find that solution.
peace,
Caren
built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman
and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell
over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her
shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just
that coat, period.~~~
Snow is a very forgiving medium. Why not start again? Or, if the
others weren't willing to do that, why not brainstorm ways that the
coat could fit? (carving the snowman down, etc.) It sounds a bit like
them vs. her - She can't have HER way! It would ruin what WE did!
Apologies if it wasn't like that, that's just how it struck me. Taking
a few minutes to talk over ways to get *that* coat on *that* snowman
would have saved so much angst.
For me, remembering 1) to breathe and 2) there's *always* a consensual
solution, helps me slow down and take a minute to find that solution.
peace,
Caren
Jodi Bezzola
I actually heard it that way too, perhaps because my mom so often gave me the impression that the 'stuff' was more important than me...perhaps she felt that way too?
Jodi
carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:
~~~DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. They
built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman
and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell
over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her
shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just
that coat, period.~~~
Snow is a very forgiving medium. Why not start again? Or, if the
others weren't willing to do that, why not brainstorm ways that the
coat could fit? (carving the snowman down, etc.) It sounds a bit like
them vs. her - She can't have HER way! It would ruin what WE did!
Apologies if it wasn't like that, that's just how it struck me. Taking
a few minutes to talk over ways to get *that* coat on *that* snowman
would have saved so much angst.
For me, remembering 1) to breathe and 2) there's *always* a consensual
solution, helps me slow down and take a minute to find that solution.
peace,
Caren
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
carenkh <carenkh@...> wrote:
~~~DH decided to build a snowman and asked the kids to join him. They
built it very big and tall. DD wanted to put her coat on the snowman
and it wouldn't fit. Dh was not willing to let her try until it fell
over. I offered to make another snowman for her, I offered to get her
shawl, poncho, something that would fit, whatever. She wanted just
that coat, period.~~~
Snow is a very forgiving medium. Why not start again? Or, if the
others weren't willing to do that, why not brainstorm ways that the
coat could fit? (carving the snowman down, etc.) It sounds a bit like
them vs. her - She can't have HER way! It would ruin what WE did!
Apologies if it wasn't like that, that's just how it struck me. Taking
a few minutes to talk over ways to get *that* coat on *that* snowman
would have saved so much angst.
For me, remembering 1) to breathe and 2) there's *always* a consensual
solution, helps me slow down and take a minute to find that solution.
peace,
Caren
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claudia
~ Wow, there are some hard pills to swallow here. For the most part,
you are probably right. So, here goes.
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
It sounds like right here is where she got you. I am going to guess
that you were throwing out these ideas in hopes that she did not
meltdown.
~ Yes, she smelled my fear.. and the opportunity to divide mom and
dad. I thought dh was being rather protective of a big snowball, but
he was very emotional about the whole thing. She knew I thought he
should lighten up.
When these anger issues would come up with my son, I found
that empathizing first ("oh bummer! It's doesn't fit. that really
stinks!") and asking him to figure out what to do next worked a
little better than throwing out a bunch of ideas.
~I think she would go for this. Yeah, I give them ideas all the time.
A friend recently suggested that I let them find their own solutions
instead of giving them tons of ideas(we were talking about boredom),
but I think it is definitely an issue with times like this as well.
And if he truly was destroying things I would physically stop him. I
don't know how unschooly or proper that is.
~Yup, that's my dilemma. I'm new at this unschooly thing and I don't
want to fall back into my old patterns.
But there was no way I would allow him (or anyone else for that
matter) to come in and
destroy things in our house.
~ I recently read a post by Pam S on the 'setting limits again' thread:
Don't let them be too rough with you or name call, without saying,
"Hey, NOT okay. Stop it now." And put space between you and them so
they can't hurt you. Don't just let them do it. But that's all you
need to do - that IS the consequence, that you won't allow it to happen.
~This was a big wake up call to me. The next time my dd started
calling me names I said, "NOT ok." Well, that's when the problems
with dd started to escalate and get more destructive. Before that it
was just verbal and I could let that roll off my shoulder. It was
just embarassing in front of others, especially my mom who is really
trying to understand.
She apologized on her own, and you told basically told her it wasn't
the right thing to do. That's similar to saying "that's ok" when
someone apologizes. It's NOT ok. Say "thank you" or "I appreciate
your apology".
~Gulp. This one felt wrong when I was writing it. It felt very
vulnerable to admit. At the time I thought I didn't want to make her
feel guilty. the shaming thing. I do enough of that as it is and I
am really trying hard to notice when I do and change it. You're
right, I was telling her it was OK, essentially giving her permission
to do it again. I wasn't trying to guilt her into apologizing. On
the other hand, I'm not sure her apology was sincere. In retrospect
it was manipulative to get me to let down my guard so she could
further destroy my bed. I'm gonna go with, "thank you" from now on.
Maybe that won't seem so spineless.
he would have heard, "you don't know any better."
~Yikes! I never thought about it like that. I guess I am telling her
that she can't do it. I don't expect her to do it, so she never will.
So I just need to tell her that she can find a solution. Empower her
<lightbulb goes on!>. aargh. I know this stuff! I've read it so
many times. Why didn't I see it?
Would it be wrong to let her know that what she is doing is
making you angry/upset/ tired or [insert emotion here]? Wouldn't it be
better to be more realistic here, than to try and be "nice". That's a
question I have as well.
~That makes sense.
Ask HER what sort of helps she wants.
~This is where I think we are both stuck. I have told her she needs
my help, so she doesn't know what sort of help she wants. I bet she
can come up with some great solutions if I just give her a little
trust and encouragment.
I like Ren's idea of having a safe place to retreat to and get some
anger and energy out. She sounds FULL of it!
~We have these things, but they are spread out all over the house. I
like the idea of consolidating them so her has a retreat.
These are just things I have found myself doing with my highly
physical son. He's 9 now, much better with his emotions, and a
wrestler on a team instead of with his mom.
~I would love to find something like this for my son. Can I email you
off list with some questions? Unless you think everyone would like to
hear more about it.
I also wondering why you feel that it's not ok for you to be angry?
How could your child possibly
learn to deal with her anger if you aren't dealing with yours?
~The verbal things did not make me angry. They rarely happened in
public. She is usually only like this at home. I just felt sad for
her when she said mean things to me. You know the old saying no one
can hurt you unless you let them. I took that power away from her by
not letting her words/actions make me angry. After all they are just
things and she is more important. It's the threats on personal safety
that concern me. She's never actually done anything physically
harmful, but she threatens. I think if push came to shove she would
not jeopardize anyone's safety. She would be hesitant, but if she
thought I was OK with it, she would definitely try it. So I also need
to be very clear about my words. I do get angry when they fight with
each other. She does see me handle my anger then.
This has been so helpful. No only to mull around new ideas in my
head, but to put it all in writing. Thank you.
you are probably right. So, here goes.
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
It sounds like right here is where she got you. I am going to guess
that you were throwing out these ideas in hopes that she did not
meltdown.
~ Yes, she smelled my fear.. and the opportunity to divide mom and
dad. I thought dh was being rather protective of a big snowball, but
he was very emotional about the whole thing. She knew I thought he
should lighten up.
When these anger issues would come up with my son, I found
that empathizing first ("oh bummer! It's doesn't fit. that really
stinks!") and asking him to figure out what to do next worked a
little better than throwing out a bunch of ideas.
~I think she would go for this. Yeah, I give them ideas all the time.
A friend recently suggested that I let them find their own solutions
instead of giving them tons of ideas(we were talking about boredom),
but I think it is definitely an issue with times like this as well.
And if he truly was destroying things I would physically stop him. I
don't know how unschooly or proper that is.
~Yup, that's my dilemma. I'm new at this unschooly thing and I don't
want to fall back into my old patterns.
But there was no way I would allow him (or anyone else for that
matter) to come in and
destroy things in our house.
~ I recently read a post by Pam S on the 'setting limits again' thread:
Don't let them be too rough with you or name call, without saying,
"Hey, NOT okay. Stop it now." And put space between you and them so
they can't hurt you. Don't just let them do it. But that's all you
need to do - that IS the consequence, that you won't allow it to happen.
~This was a big wake up call to me. The next time my dd started
calling me names I said, "NOT ok." Well, that's when the problems
with dd started to escalate and get more destructive. Before that it
was just verbal and I could let that roll off my shoulder. It was
just embarassing in front of others, especially my mom who is really
trying to understand.
She apologized on her own, and you told basically told her it wasn't
the right thing to do. That's similar to saying "that's ok" when
someone apologizes. It's NOT ok. Say "thank you" or "I appreciate
your apology".
~Gulp. This one felt wrong when I was writing it. It felt very
vulnerable to admit. At the time I thought I didn't want to make her
feel guilty. the shaming thing. I do enough of that as it is and I
am really trying hard to notice when I do and change it. You're
right, I was telling her it was OK, essentially giving her permission
to do it again. I wasn't trying to guilt her into apologizing. On
the other hand, I'm not sure her apology was sincere. In retrospect
it was manipulative to get me to let down my guard so she could
further destroy my bed. I'm gonna go with, "thank you" from now on.
Maybe that won't seem so spineless.
he would have heard, "you don't know any better."
~Yikes! I never thought about it like that. I guess I am telling her
that she can't do it. I don't expect her to do it, so she never will.
So I just need to tell her that she can find a solution. Empower her
<lightbulb goes on!>. aargh. I know this stuff! I've read it so
many times. Why didn't I see it?
Would it be wrong to let her know that what she is doing is
making you angry/upset/ tired or [insert emotion here]? Wouldn't it be
better to be more realistic here, than to try and be "nice". That's a
question I have as well.
~That makes sense.
Ask HER what sort of helps she wants.
~This is where I think we are both stuck. I have told her she needs
my help, so she doesn't know what sort of help she wants. I bet she
can come up with some great solutions if I just give her a little
trust and encouragment.
I like Ren's idea of having a safe place to retreat to and get some
anger and energy out. She sounds FULL of it!
~We have these things, but they are spread out all over the house. I
like the idea of consolidating them so her has a retreat.
These are just things I have found myself doing with my highly
physical son. He's 9 now, much better with his emotions, and a
wrestler on a team instead of with his mom.
~I would love to find something like this for my son. Can I email you
off list with some questions? Unless you think everyone would like to
hear more about it.
I also wondering why you feel that it's not ok for you to be angry?
How could your child possibly
learn to deal with her anger if you aren't dealing with yours?
~The verbal things did not make me angry. They rarely happened in
public. She is usually only like this at home. I just felt sad for
her when she said mean things to me. You know the old saying no one
can hurt you unless you let them. I took that power away from her by
not letting her words/actions make me angry. After all they are just
things and she is more important. It's the threats on personal safety
that concern me. She's never actually done anything physically
harmful, but she threatens. I think if push came to shove she would
not jeopardize anyone's safety. She would be hesitant, but if she
thought I was OK with it, she would definitely try it. So I also need
to be very clear about my words. I do get angry when they fight with
each other. She does see me handle my anger then.
This has been so helpful. No only to mull around new ideas in my
head, but to put it all in writing. Thank you.
Claudia
--- In [email protected], "swissarmy_wife"
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
us do that. The first time it was useful even though I hated it.
Then, she began to hate it. She never sought it out and is afraid to
hurt me. That's why therapy stopped being effective. We started
unschooling about 3 months into therapy and it worked much better.
<heatherbean@...> wrote:
>I hated it though. I
> I think it is called passive restraint?
> Their came a time when he actively sought it out
> too. For some reason he found it safe to "freak out" in my arms.
> really, really hated it. :-(We were in therapy with her last year for 6 months. The therapist had
us do that. The first time it was useful even though I hated it.
Then, she began to hate it. She never sought it out and is afraid to
hurt me. That's why therapy stopped being effective. We started
unschooling about 3 months into therapy and it worked much better.
Claudia
Have you read the book "The Explosive Child"?-
I'll definitely check this out.
claudia
I'll definitely check this out.
claudia
Claudia
It sounds a bit like
thought he was being very immature/possessive about the whole thing.
I probably shouldn't have started that way <the light goes on again>.
She saw that he and I had a difference of opinion and seized the
opportunity to drive in a wedge. She made me choose sides between her
and daddy. I tried to find a consensual solution and she would have
nothing of it. She saw a weakness and dug her heels in.
Wow... WOW, I totally set up this whole situation for her to take
advantage of my ineptitude. Boy, is she ever going to be surprised
when I come back with a whole lot of new tools. Thanks so much to
everyone. Now, I just need to go get that book and then find her a
purpose.
> them vs. her - She can't have HER way! It would ruin what WE did!That is exactly how it was. I tried reasoning with dh first. I
> Apologies if it wasn't like that, that's just how it struck me. Taking
> a few minutes to talk over ways to get *that* coat on *that* snowman
> would have saved so much angst.
>
thought he was being very immature/possessive about the whole thing.
I probably shouldn't have started that way <the light goes on again>.
She saw that he and I had a difference of opinion and seized the
opportunity to drive in a wedge. She made me choose sides between her
and daddy. I tried to find a consensual solution and she would have
nothing of it. She saw a weakness and dug her heels in.
Wow... WOW, I totally set up this whole situation for her to take
advantage of my ineptitude. Boy, is she ever going to be surprised
when I come back with a whole lot of new tools. Thanks so much to
everyone. Now, I just need to go get that book and then find her a
purpose.
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why I can seem to comprehend your posts. Maybe it's some
of the lingo.
WHAT purpose? What do you mean by "purpose"?
How do you "invent" someone else's purpose?
And why do we "need to think we have a lifelong purpose"?
I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
I have daily and weekly and monthly "To Do" lists, but I don't think I
have a daily, weekly or monthly *purpose*. I certainly don't have a
"lifelong purpose"---unless you know something I don't.<:-P
I know Steve Martin had a "special purpose" in The Jerk, but I don't
think that's what you mean. <g>
Do you mean "goals"? Goals are good. But others can't invent or set our
goals for us.
But "purpose" is really throwing me.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why I can seem to comprehend your posts. Maybe it's some
of the lingo.
WHAT purpose? What do you mean by "purpose"?
How do you "invent" someone else's purpose?
And why do we "need to think we have a lifelong purpose"?
I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
I have daily and weekly and monthly "To Do" lists, but I don't think I
have a daily, weekly or monthly *purpose*. I certainly don't have a
"lifelong purpose"---unless you know something I don't.<:-P
I know Steve Martin had a "special purpose" in The Jerk, but I don't
think that's what you mean. <g>
Do you mean "goals"? Goals are good. But others can't invent or set our
goals for us.
But "purpose" is really throwing me.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Robin Bentley
I, too, have difficulty understanding this, but not because I don't
get "purpose" <g>. Many people think that having a lifelong purpose
(e.g. healing people or animals, changing society, bringing the
message of unschooling to others <g> etc.) is an important part of
their lives – an overall guide to what they do and how they live in
the world.
What I don't get is the "invent your child's purpose for her, then
spell it out so she has something to focus on" part. You, as a parent,
can facilitate your child's understanding of their own purpose (should
they, indeed, want to discover it), but you can't *make* them have
one. It's antithetical to unschooling to do so.
Robin B.
P.S. Brad, tell us about your family and how unschooling works in your
life. Have you invented "a purpose" for your kids?
Kelly wrote:
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
get "purpose" <g>. Many people think that having a lifelong purpose
(e.g. healing people or animals, changing society, bringing the
message of unschooling to others <g> etc.) is an important part of
their lives – an overall guide to what they do and how they live in
the world.
What I don't get is the "invent your child's purpose for her, then
spell it out so she has something to focus on" part. You, as a parent,
can facilitate your child's understanding of their own purpose (should
they, indeed, want to discover it), but you can't *make* them have
one. It's antithetical to unschooling to do so.
Robin B.
P.S. Brad, tell us about your family and how unschooling works in your
life. Have you invented "a purpose" for your kids?
Kelly wrote:
>bhmjones wrote:
> I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
>
>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
Jodi Bezzola
~~Many people think that having a lifelong purpose (e.g. healing people or animals, hanging society, bringing the message of unschooling to others <g> etc.) is an important part of
their lives an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our 'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose *purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet (purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*, *specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away) because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
their lives an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our 'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose *purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet (purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*, *specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away) because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
do you not think unschooling your child is some sort of purpose you serve?
kbcdlovejo@... wrote: -----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why I can seem to comprehend your posts. Maybe it's some
of the lingo.
WHAT purpose? What do you mean by "purpose"?
How do you "invent" someone else's purpose?
And why do we "need to think we have a lifelong purpose"?
I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
I have daily and weekly and monthly "To Do" lists, but I don't think I
have a daily, weekly or monthly *purpose*. I certainly don't have a
"lifelong purpose"---unless you know something I don't.<:-P
I know Steve Martin had a "special purpose" in The Jerk, but I don't
think that's what you mean. <g>
Do you mean "goals"? Goals are good. But others can't invent or set our
goals for us.
But "purpose" is really throwing me.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... wrote: -----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know why I can seem to comprehend your posts. Maybe it's some
of the lingo.
WHAT purpose? What do you mean by "purpose"?
How do you "invent" someone else's purpose?
And why do we "need to think we have a lifelong purpose"?
I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
I have daily and weekly and monthly "To Do" lists, but I don't think I
have a daily, weekly or monthly *purpose*. I certainly don't have a
"lifelong purpose"---unless you know something I don't.<:-P
I know Steve Martin had a "special purpose" in The Jerk, but I don't
think that's what you mean. <g>
Do you mean "goals"? Goals are good. But others can't invent or set our
goals for us.
But "purpose" is really throwing me.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle Thedaker
And here's another radical idea. What is our "purpose" is just that - OURS?
One that WE decide and WE choose and WE follow because we want to? Near the
end of the DVD "The Secret" there is a snippet with Neale Donald Walsch
("Conversations with God" author). He says something that grabbed me and
has held me fast ever since. Basically he says that there is no blackboard
in the sky where God has written our purpose in life. Our purpose is
whatever we make it, whatever we decide for it to be. There isn't anything
we are "supposed" to be doing here in this life other than feel love and joy
and create what we want for ourselves. Wow! That was so very freeing for
me to hear. I could stop searching for a mystical reason for my existance.
Following my own path, as I saw it, was good enough. Better than good
enough, it was exactly what I should be doing. Whew!
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jodi Bezzola
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: breaking limits
~~Many people think that having a lifelong purpose (e.g. healing people or
animals, hanging society, bringing the message of unschooling to others <g>
etc.) is an important part of
their lives - an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the
world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our
'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose
*purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have
many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I
bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my
sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet
(purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*,
*specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing
massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What
was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away)
because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be
a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done
next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal
itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One that WE decide and WE choose and WE follow because we want to? Near the
end of the DVD "The Secret" there is a snippet with Neale Donald Walsch
("Conversations with God" author). He says something that grabbed me and
has held me fast ever since. Basically he says that there is no blackboard
in the sky where God has written our purpose in life. Our purpose is
whatever we make it, whatever we decide for it to be. There isn't anything
we are "supposed" to be doing here in this life other than feel love and joy
and create what we want for ourselves. Wow! That was so very freeing for
me to hear. I could stop searching for a mystical reason for my existance.
Following my own path, as I saw it, was good enough. Better than good
enough, it was exactly what I should be doing. Whew!
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jodi Bezzola
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: breaking limits
~~Many people think that having a lifelong purpose (e.g. healing people or
animals, hanging society, bringing the message of unschooling to others <g>
etc.) is an important part of
their lives - an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the
world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our
'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose
*purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have
many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I
bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my
sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet
(purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*,
*specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing
massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What
was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away)
because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be
a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done
next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal
itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brad jones
Hi Robbin,
No I have not invented a purpose for my children yet since fortunately I do not have a red-zone child, she does not destroy my things in fits of rage. Folks, I'm only suggesting this idea for a red-zone case, I am not suggesting it for people who are not in this situation and for people who are starting from scratch....
I am suggesting it because most suggestions I'm hearing here so far tend to enable the behaviour that this child is displaying. I'm not a big believer in enabling undesirable behaviours. I'm really saying that this girl is simply bored with her current situation and needs something to alleviate her boredom.
As a nihilist I do not believe that a grand purpose for people exists, so that is why I believe you have to invent one for yourself and for anyone in your care if need be....
Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
I, too, have difficulty understanding this, but not because I don't
get "purpose" . Many people think that having a lifelong purpose
(e.g. healing people or animals, changing society, bringing the
message of unschooling to others etc.) is an important part of
their lives an overall guide to what they do and how they live in
the world.
What I don't get is the "invent your child's purpose for her, then
spell it out so she has something to focus on" part. You, as a parent,
can facilitate your child's understanding of their own purpose (should
they, indeed, want to discover it), but you can't *make* them have
one. It's antithetical to unschooling to do so.
Robin B.
P.S. Brad, tell us about your family and how unschooling works in your
life. Have you invented "a purpose" for your kids?
Kelly wrote:
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
Yahoo! Groups Links
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No I have not invented a purpose for my children yet since fortunately I do not have a red-zone child, she does not destroy my things in fits of rage. Folks, I'm only suggesting this idea for a red-zone case, I am not suggesting it for people who are not in this situation and for people who are starting from scratch....
I am suggesting it because most suggestions I'm hearing here so far tend to enable the behaviour that this child is displaying. I'm not a big believer in enabling undesirable behaviours. I'm really saying that this girl is simply bored with her current situation and needs something to alleviate her boredom.
As a nihilist I do not believe that a grand purpose for people exists, so that is why I believe you have to invent one for yourself and for anyone in your care if need be....
Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
I, too, have difficulty understanding this, but not because I don't
get "purpose" . Many people think that having a lifelong purpose
(e.g. healing people or animals, changing society, bringing the
message of unschooling to others etc.) is an important part of
their lives an overall guide to what they do and how they live in
the world.
What I don't get is the "invent your child's purpose for her, then
spell it out so she has something to focus on" part. You, as a parent,
can facilitate your child's understanding of their own purpose (should
they, indeed, want to discover it), but you can't *make* them have
one. It's antithetical to unschooling to do so.
Robin B.
P.S. Brad, tell us about your family and how unschooling works in your
life. Have you invented "a purpose" for your kids?
Kelly wrote:
>bhmjones wrote:
> I am really not understanding. Are others as confused as I am?
>
>
This girl needs her purpose spelled out for her (which
you'll have to invent, but that is ok) so she has something to focus
on. Human psychology teaches us that for us to be happy, stable, and
balanced, we simply need to think we have a lifelong purpose and have
the ability and tools to direct our focus on it.
Yahoo! Groups Links
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
I remember that part in The Secret, it really struck me too. As in, you mean I'm just supposed to be happy and do what I love?? What an alternative concept :).
Jodi
Michelle Thedaker <pamperedthed@...> wrote:
And here's another radical idea. What is our "purpose" is just that - OURS?
One that WE decide and WE choose and WE follow because we want to? Near the
end of the DVD "The Secret" there is a snippet with Neale Donald Walsch
("Conversations with God" author). He says something that grabbed me and
has held me fast ever since. Basically he says that there is no blackboard
in the sky where God has written our purpose in life. Our purpose is
whatever we make it, whatever we decide for it to be. There isn't anything
we are "supposed" to be doing here in this life other than feel love and joy
and create what we want for ourselves. Wow! That was so very freeing for
me to hear. I could stop searching for a mystical reason for my existance.
Following my own path, as I saw it, was good enough. Better than good
enough, it was exactly what I should be doing. Whew!
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jodi Bezzola
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: breaking limits
~~Many people think that having a lifelong purpose (e.g. healing people or
animals, hanging society, bringing the message of unschooling to others <g>
etc.) is an important part of
their lives - an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the
world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our
'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose
*purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have
many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I
bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my
sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet
(purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*,
*specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing
massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What
was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away)
because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be
a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done
next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal
itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
Michelle Thedaker <pamperedthed@...> wrote:
And here's another radical idea. What is our "purpose" is just that - OURS?
One that WE decide and WE choose and WE follow because we want to? Near the
end of the DVD "The Secret" there is a snippet with Neale Donald Walsch
("Conversations with God" author). He says something that grabbed me and
has held me fast ever since. Basically he says that there is no blackboard
in the sky where God has written our purpose in life. Our purpose is
whatever we make it, whatever we decide for it to be. There isn't anything
we are "supposed" to be doing here in this life other than feel love and joy
and create what we want for ourselves. Wow! That was so very freeing for
me to hear. I could stop searching for a mystical reason for my existance.
Following my own path, as I saw it, was good enough. Better than good
enough, it was exactly what I should be doing. Whew!
Shell & Da Boys
Drew, 8.5 and Josh, 4.5
www.thedaker.blogspot.com
"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you
love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jodi Bezzola
Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: breaking limits
~~Many people think that having a lifelong purpose (e.g. healing people or
animals, hanging society, bringing the message of unschooling to others <g>
etc.) is an important part of
their lives - an overall guide to what they do and how they live in the
world.~~
In my humble opinion this is one of the supreme conditionings of our
'evolved' culture. I really believe it's the very small minority whose
*purpose* stays the same throughout their lives. I believe most of us have
many purposes and those purposes are constantly changing and evolving. I
bought into the idea of *one purpose* fully in high school, and since my
sister knew from the time she was 3 months old that she wanted to be a vet
(purpose read: save all animals), why could I not decide on my *one*,
*specific* *purpose* that would have me be fulfilled and contributing
massively to society until I retired drooling into the nursing home? What
was wrong with *me*?? I ended up doing nothing (became a nanny and hid away)
because I couldn't decide what that 'one thing' was.
Clearly my purpose today is to heal my old big stuff so I can be free to be
a more joyful parent, spouse, daughter, mother, friend. That might be done
next week (I can only dream!) at which time my next purpose will reveal
itself.
Just my story.
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@...>
do you not think unschooling your child is some sort of purpose you
serve?
-=-=-=-=-
Like something given or dictated to me by God or the universe or some
higher power or something?
No.
I've never heard of it (uh...not that I've heard of everything! <g>).
I've just never heard that phrase. And I don't believe that I serve any
certain lifelong purpose. My goals has changed as I've aged. They
change every day.
Ten scoops of mushroom compost arrived today, so my "purpose" for
tomorrow has increased dramatically. <g> My "purpose" is to distribute
a half-ton of compost into the new 16X20 raised bed and on the lawn.
<BWG> But if that were my *lifelong* purpose, I might be buying a
one-way ticket to some island. <G>
~Kelly, about to get her hands really dirty!
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
From: brad jones <bhmjones@...>
do you not think unschooling your child is some sort of purpose you
serve?
-=-=-=-=-
Like something given or dictated to me by God or the universe or some
higher power or something?
No.
I've never heard of it (uh...not that I've heard of everything! <g>).
I've just never heard that phrase. And I don't believe that I serve any
certain lifelong purpose. My goals has changed as I've aged. They
change every day.
Ten scoops of mushroom compost arrived today, so my "purpose" for
tomorrow has increased dramatically. <g> My "purpose" is to distribute
a half-ton of compost into the new 16X20 raised bed and on the lawn.
<BWG> But if that were my *lifelong* purpose, I might be buying a
one-way ticket to some island. <G>
~Kelly, about to get her hands really dirty!
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Robin Bentley
So, only "red-zone" children get purposes invented for them? What does
"red-zone" mean?
Robin B.
"red-zone" mean?
Robin B.
On Mar 11, 2008, at 4:52 PM, brad jones wrote:
> Hi Robbin,
> No I have not invented a purpose for my children yet since
> fortunately I do not have a red-zone child, she does not destroy my
> things in fits of rage. Folks, I'm only suggesting this idea for a
> red-zone case, I am not suggesting it for people who are not in this
> situation and for people who are starting from scratch....
>
> I am suggesting it because most suggestions I'm hearing here so far
> tend to enable the behaviour that this child is displaying. I'm not
> a big believer in enabling undesirable behaviours. I'm really saying
> that this girl is simply bored with her current situation and needs
> something to alleviate her boredom.
>
> As a nihilist I do not believe that a grand purpose for people
> exists, so that is why I believe you have to invent one for yourself
> and for anyone in your care if need be....
Jodi Bezzola
Kelly, I just did a frustratingly long search and can't find the book list you emailed someone awhile ago. Can you pretty please resend??? Thanks :).
Jodi
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi
---------------------------------
Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
Kelly, I just did a frustratingly long search and can't find the book
list you
emailed someone awhile ago. Can you pretty please resend??? Thanks :).
-=-=-=-
You bet!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Below is the list I usually send to folks questioning unschooling in SC
(with a few additions). Long book list as well as elists, websites, and
conferences.
There are several good books on the inanity and insanity of schools and
on
the marvels of unschooling.
The unschooling "patron saint" is John Holt. He was a school reformer
in the
70's who came to realize that schools are NOT reformable. His most
popular
books are _How Children Fail_, _How Children Learn_, _Teach Your Own_,
and _Learning
All the Time_.
John Taylor Gatto was a NY city and NY state teacher of the year. He
finally
quit and started on the speaking circuit. He seems completely behind
unschooling (although a little anti-TV and -gaming). His two big books
are _Dumbing Us Down_ and _The Underground
History of American Education_.
Frank Smith has a great little book called _The Book of Learning and
Forgetting_ that shows how little one learns in and remembers from
school. He
pushes REAL learning---for a purpose. GREAT for dads!!
Alfie Kohn's _Punished by Rewards_ shows the total inanity of EXtrinsic
motivation (gold stars, grades, etc.) and the attributes of INtrinsic
motivation.
Grace Llewellyn's _The Teenage Liberation Handbook (How to Quit School
and
Get a REAL Education)_ is the "bible" for unschoolers. It's a great
read for
teens, but parents should read it too. Be SURE not to skip the "cute
little
story" at the beginning. Grace also hosts the "Not Back To School Camp"
in
the early fall for teen unschoolers---a place to meet other unschoolers
and share
passions and interests.
Mary Griffith has two books, _The Homeschooling Handbook_ and _The
Unschooling
Handbook_. The Homeschooling Handbook has many great ideas for
documenting
what's being learned; and, since that is a requirement in SC, it's very
helpful. But _The Unschooling Handbook_ is THE handbook for new
unschoolers. In it she
gives real life examples and explanations. VERY understandable.
Convinced my
husband that what I was suggesting made sense! <g>
Mark Prenky (not an unschooler) has several books---anything by him
would be worthwhile. But his _Don't Bother Me , Mom! I'm Learning!_ is
a great introduction to understanding gaming and the 21st century.
Daniel Pink---also not an unschooler---has written several books on how
traditional schooling/education is failing the modern human. _A Whole
New Mind_ is a good read.
David Albert has two: _And the Skylark Sings with Me_ and
_Homeschooling and the
Voyage of Self-Discovery_. Both are witty---and easy reads.
Valerie Fitzenreiter has a book that I highly recommend: _The
Unprocessed Child: Living Without School_. It's about unschooling her
daughter, Laurie.
Sandra Dodd's _Moving a Puddle_---a collection of essays. Most can be
found online and at her site, but it's nice to have them bound---all in
one place.
My absolute favorite of all time is Rue Kream's _Parenting a Free
Child; An Unschooled Life_. It WILL change your life! Worth its weight
in gold!
Magazines:
"Connections" e-zine ---online magazine
"Life Learning Magazine"
"Live Free Learn Free"
"Growing Without Schooling", originally put out by John Holt. No longer
in
production, but back issues available from "old" unschoolers and from
FUNbooks.
Websites:
_www.unschooling.info_ (http://www.unschooling.info/) There are other
lists
that "say" they unschool; these are the radicals who KNOW what they are
talking about. There are essays and FAQs which you should definitely
read first.
Afterwards go to the message boards and read, read, READ! If you have
questions after reading for a few weeks, then post---but most things
have been
explained before, so if you read, you'll run across the answers to most
of your
questions.
*note: this has become a rather quiet board---not that *you* can't make
it lively again! <g>
_UnschoolingDiscussion@..._
(mailto:UnschoolingDiscussion@...) is a great e-list if
you prefer
your messages in mail form. Unless you're hard
core, or just prefer your lists this way, I'd recommend the message
boards.
There is also [email protected]_
(mailto:[email protected]) . The "basics" for those who
wish to make this huge lifestyle change. I own this list with Ren
Allen.
[email protected] for experienced unschoolers
[email protected] for parents of children eight and
under
[email protected] for parents of children who SHINE!
[email protected] for support wrt The Secret (LoA)
[email protected] (Radical Unschoolers List) for…um…radicals. <g>
_www.SchoolsOutSupport.com_ (http://www.schoolsoutsupport.com/) is the
South Carolina unschooling accountability association and support group.
There's a very good chance that there is an unschooling group in your
state/city. Google it. If not, start your own!
Sandra Dodd is a radical unschooler of three children, 19, 17, & 15 (I
think). She has her own website that is chocked FULL of essays and
stories
about unschooling. It's a great place to start.
_www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling_
(http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling)
Joyce Fetteroll has an engineer's mind and a very *logical* way of
explaining unschooling even to the most diehard critic!
www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Ned Vare & Luz Shosie have an
already-graduated-from-college-always-unschooled son. Their website is
full
of short essays on unschooling. They have a
newsletter as well.
_http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/_
(http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/)
Billy and Nancy Greer own FUN-books---a mail-order catalogue for
unschoolish
books and games. _www.FUN-Books.com_ (http://www.fun-books.com/)
And the conference:
Live & Learn Unschooling Conference
September 5-9. 2007 in Black Mountain, NC at the YMCA Blue Ridge
Assembly.
Go To _www.LiveandLearnConference.org_
(http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/)
This conference is a must attend! Meet other families on the same
journey,
listen to inspiring speakers, and discover the art of unschooling in
beautiful Black Mountain, NC. This is a non-age-discriminatory
conference: anyone
can participate in any Funshop or Presentation. Bring the whole family
for a
joy-filled weekend!
If this is not in your neck of the woods or if you just need *more*
unschooling conferencing, try these:
www.livingjoyfully.ca/conference
www.LIFEisGood Conference.com
www.NorthEastUnschoolingConference.com
PuraVida Conference in Costa Rica in Dec 2008---not set in stone yet
and no website
plus there are plenty of opportunities for unschoolers to gather:
NonCons, WaterPark Adventures, all sorts of things. And if you don't
see something that appeals, start one yourself! <g>
From: Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...>
Kelly, I just did a frustratingly long search and can't find the book
list you
emailed someone awhile ago. Can you pretty please resend??? Thanks :).
-=-=-=-
You bet!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Below is the list I usually send to folks questioning unschooling in SC
(with a few additions). Long book list as well as elists, websites, and
conferences.
There are several good books on the inanity and insanity of schools and
on
the marvels of unschooling.
The unschooling "patron saint" is John Holt. He was a school reformer
in the
70's who came to realize that schools are NOT reformable. His most
popular
books are _How Children Fail_, _How Children Learn_, _Teach Your Own_,
and _Learning
All the Time_.
John Taylor Gatto was a NY city and NY state teacher of the year. He
finally
quit and started on the speaking circuit. He seems completely behind
unschooling (although a little anti-TV and -gaming). His two big books
are _Dumbing Us Down_ and _The Underground
History of American Education_.
Frank Smith has a great little book called _The Book of Learning and
Forgetting_ that shows how little one learns in and remembers from
school. He
pushes REAL learning---for a purpose. GREAT for dads!!
Alfie Kohn's _Punished by Rewards_ shows the total inanity of EXtrinsic
motivation (gold stars, grades, etc.) and the attributes of INtrinsic
motivation.
Grace Llewellyn's _The Teenage Liberation Handbook (How to Quit School
and
Get a REAL Education)_ is the "bible" for unschoolers. It's a great
read for
teens, but parents should read it too. Be SURE not to skip the "cute
little
story" at the beginning. Grace also hosts the "Not Back To School Camp"
in
the early fall for teen unschoolers---a place to meet other unschoolers
and share
passions and interests.
Mary Griffith has two books, _The Homeschooling Handbook_ and _The
Unschooling
Handbook_. The Homeschooling Handbook has many great ideas for
documenting
what's being learned; and, since that is a requirement in SC, it's very
helpful. But _The Unschooling Handbook_ is THE handbook for new
unschoolers. In it she
gives real life examples and explanations. VERY understandable.
Convinced my
husband that what I was suggesting made sense! <g>
Mark Prenky (not an unschooler) has several books---anything by him
would be worthwhile. But his _Don't Bother Me , Mom! I'm Learning!_ is
a great introduction to understanding gaming and the 21st century.
Daniel Pink---also not an unschooler---has written several books on how
traditional schooling/education is failing the modern human. _A Whole
New Mind_ is a good read.
David Albert has two: _And the Skylark Sings with Me_ and
_Homeschooling and the
Voyage of Self-Discovery_. Both are witty---and easy reads.
Valerie Fitzenreiter has a book that I highly recommend: _The
Unprocessed Child: Living Without School_. It's about unschooling her
daughter, Laurie.
Sandra Dodd's _Moving a Puddle_---a collection of essays. Most can be
found online and at her site, but it's nice to have them bound---all in
one place.
My absolute favorite of all time is Rue Kream's _Parenting a Free
Child; An Unschooled Life_. It WILL change your life! Worth its weight
in gold!
Magazines:
"Connections" e-zine ---online magazine
"Life Learning Magazine"
"Live Free Learn Free"
"Growing Without Schooling", originally put out by John Holt. No longer
in
production, but back issues available from "old" unschoolers and from
FUNbooks.
Websites:
_www.unschooling.info_ (http://www.unschooling.info/) There are other
lists
that "say" they unschool; these are the radicals who KNOW what they are
talking about. There are essays and FAQs which you should definitely
read first.
Afterwards go to the message boards and read, read, READ! If you have
questions after reading for a few weeks, then post---but most things
have been
explained before, so if you read, you'll run across the answers to most
of your
questions.
*note: this has become a rather quiet board---not that *you* can't make
it lively again! <g>
_UnschoolingDiscussion@..._
(mailto:UnschoolingDiscussion@...) is a great e-list if
you prefer
your messages in mail form. Unless you're hard
core, or just prefer your lists this way, I'd recommend the message
boards.
There is also [email protected]_
(mailto:[email protected]) . The "basics" for those who
wish to make this huge lifestyle change. I own this list with Ren
Allen.
[email protected] for experienced unschoolers
[email protected] for parents of children eight and
under
[email protected] for parents of children who SHINE!
[email protected] for support wrt The Secret (LoA)
[email protected] (Radical Unschoolers List) for…um…radicals. <g>
_www.SchoolsOutSupport.com_ (http://www.schoolsoutsupport.com/) is the
South Carolina unschooling accountability association and support group.
There's a very good chance that there is an unschooling group in your
state/city. Google it. If not, start your own!
Sandra Dodd is a radical unschooler of three children, 19, 17, & 15 (I
think). She has her own website that is chocked FULL of essays and
stories
about unschooling. It's a great place to start.
_www.SandraDodd.com/unschooling_
(http://www.sandradodd.com/unschooling)
Joyce Fetteroll has an engineer's mind and a very *logical* way of
explaining unschooling even to the most diehard critic!
www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Ned Vare & Luz Shosie have an
already-graduated-from-college-always-unschooled son. Their website is
full
of short essays on unschooling. They have a
newsletter as well.
_http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/_
(http://borntoexplore.org/unschool/)
Billy and Nancy Greer own FUN-books---a mail-order catalogue for
unschoolish
books and games. _www.FUN-Books.com_ (http://www.fun-books.com/)
And the conference:
Live & Learn Unschooling Conference
September 5-9. 2007 in Black Mountain, NC at the YMCA Blue Ridge
Assembly.
Go To _www.LiveandLearnConference.org_
(http://www.liveandlearnconference.org/)
This conference is a must attend! Meet other families on the same
journey,
listen to inspiring speakers, and discover the art of unschooling in
beautiful Black Mountain, NC. This is a non-age-discriminatory
conference: anyone
can participate in any Funshop or Presentation. Bring the whole family
for a
joy-filled weekend!
If this is not in your neck of the woods or if you just need *more*
unschooling conferencing, try these:
www.livingjoyfully.ca/conference
www.LIFEisGood Conference.com
www.NorthEastUnschoolingConference.com
PuraVida Conference in Costa Rica in Dec 2008---not set in stone yet
and no website
plus there are plenty of opportunities for unschoolers to gather:
NonCons, WaterPark Adventures, all sorts of things. And if you don't
see something that appeals, start one yourself! <g>