Karen Swanay

I am trying to wordcraft this post carefully but I may misstep. If I
write something here that seems like I'm being insensitive or
uncaring, please either ask me if this is what I meant or assume this
is NOT what I meant.

OK, my question is about Morgan.

Morgan - adopted from China 8 weeks ago. She is 3.5 and I'm pretty
certain has institutional autism but is blossoming under love,
consistant care, absence of violence, good food and ample stimulation.
She has VERY limited language. She understands a lot of english, but
says few words and babbles a lot. She has no chinese that I can
discover. (In fact she actively ignores all Asian adults.) OK...so
she's 3.5 yrs old, but she's developmentally 8-12 months old and
emotionally about 3-5 months old. So this is not your average
circumstance.

Here's the thing, poopy diapers (yes she's not potty trained and
that's OK) go directly outside into the tote. Wet diapers I throw
away into the trash can in the kitchen. About 3 days ago I handed her
the diaper and asked her to throw it away. Mostly I did that to check
her language aquisition since she doesn't speak much. If I say "Give
this to Daddy" we get nothing. She doesn't even look at him. So
anyway, it was not an exercise in control or domination. I did it to
see if she had the word "trash" and "diaper". She apparently does
know what the trash can is, but not the diaper, so in fact she may
just be imitating me which is OK too. She likes to do the things I
do. Anyway, now when there is a wet diaper I hand it to her and say
"Would you throw this in the trash please?" and she VERY happily does
it. After it's in the bin she claps and says "YAY!!!!" and so do I.
This pleases her. She wants to know we are happy with her and our
opportunities to show her this are limited to her "performing" because
she rarely (though more often now than 8 weeks ago) will tolerate
cuddling. It's not easy to show a pre-verbal child with a tenuous
grasp of the language love and affection if she also doesn't want to
be kissed and hugged. So anyway, she does know clapping and cheering
are good and she *likes this* a lot. A whole lot. BUT here's the
question, am I teaching her that to get my approval she has to do
things I ask of her?

If I am doing this, can someone suggest another avenue to praise -->
happiness because she spent 3.5 years in a crib with little contact,
and most of that contact was abusive. I don't want to cheer for her
indiscriminantly, because she doesn't make many connections really.
So if she's just laying on the floor drinking her milk, and I cheer,
she will be confused or ignore it assuming it was for someone else. I
don't want her to feel like a performing poodle, and my "plan" is to
stop this as she aquires more language or allows more cuddling and
physical affection. She's making HUGE strides daily but it's still
been 2 months and it could be years before she returns love or even
understands the concept of being loved and belonging. I feel strongly
that I have to nourish the good feelings she gets by pleasing me.
Were there any other way that I could see, I would use it.

So, please tell me if I'm doing something bad by doing this or if
there are other options for showing affection and love to a child who
doesn't understand "I love you" and doesn't understand kissing and is
just now showing rare interest in hugs.

Thank you,
Karen

--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."

- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

Pamela Sorooshian

Sounds like a good thing, to me. It is nice that you're worrying about
it, but you're not doing it to manipulate her into performing for you,
you're showing her approval so that she'll feel loved and welcomed
and, well, approved of.

Authenticity matters. Motivation and intent matter.

Think about it more as celebrating with her - maybe that will help.
Like when a baby takes his first steps or says his first words - we
get all excited and happy and that IS reinforcing, of course, but
we're not doing it to "train" them, we're doing it because it is a
genuine emotion - joy.

So - if you're paying close attention to each little milestone she
achieves and you are celebrating that with her by cheering and
clapping and smiling, etc., that's sweet and right! I was struck by
the fact that SHE is celebrating it right along with you - it isn't
one sided. You're not giving her a treat (and withholding the treat if
she doesn't do the trick), you're showing your excitement and joy at
her development.

-pam

On Mar 9, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Karen Swanay wrote:

>
> So, please tell me if I'm doing something bad by doing this or if
> there are other options for showing affection and love to a child who
> doesn't understand "I love you" and doesn't understand kissing and is
> just now showing rare interest in hugs.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jodi Bezzola

My own rather short experience is all I have to offer here. What really cleared up the whole praise thing for dh and I is Alfie Kohn's book Unconditional Parenting, and there is also a dvd of same if that is preferred. He was just in Calgary so a bunch of us went to see him, and he makes *alot* of sense.

Jodi

Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
I am trying to wordcraft this post carefully but I may misstep. If I
write something here that seems like I'm being insensitive or
uncaring, please either ask me if this is what I meant or assume this
is NOT what I meant.

OK, my question is about Morgan.

Morgan - adopted from China 8 weeks ago. She is 3.5 and I'm pretty
certain has institutional autism but is blossoming under love,
consistant care, absence of violence, good food and ample stimulation.
She has VERY limited language. She understands a lot of english, but
says few words and babbles a lot. She has no chinese that I can
discover. (In fact she actively ignores all Asian adults.) OK...so
she's 3.5 yrs old, but she's developmentally 8-12 months old and
emotionally about 3-5 months old. So this is not your average
circumstance.

Here's the thing, poopy diapers (yes she's not potty trained and
that's OK) go directly outside into the tote. Wet diapers I throw
away into the trash can in the kitchen. About 3 days ago I handed her
the diaper and asked her to throw it away. Mostly I did that to check
her language aquisition since she doesn't speak much. If I say "Give
this to Daddy" we get nothing. She doesn't even look at him. So
anyway, it was not an exercise in control or domination. I did it to
see if she had the word "trash" and "diaper". She apparently does
know what the trash can is, but not the diaper, so in fact she may
just be imitating me which is OK too. She likes to do the things I
do. Anyway, now when there is a wet diaper I hand it to her and say
"Would you throw this in the trash please?" and she VERY happily does
it. After it's in the bin she claps and says "YAY!!!!" and so do I.
This pleases her. She wants to know we are happy with her and our
opportunities to show her this are limited to her "performing" because
she rarely (though more often now than 8 weeks ago) will tolerate
cuddling. It's not easy to show a pre-verbal child with a tenuous
grasp of the language love and affection if she also doesn't want to
be kissed and hugged. So anyway, she does know clapping and cheering
are good and she *likes this* a lot. A whole lot. BUT here's the
question, am I teaching her that to get my approval she has to do
things I ask of her?

If I am doing this, can someone suggest another avenue to praise -->
happiness because she spent 3.5 years in a crib with little contact,
and most of that contact was abusive. I don't want to cheer for her
indiscriminantly, because she doesn't make many connections really.
So if she's just laying on the floor drinking her milk, and I cheer,
she will be confused or ignore it assuming it was for someone else. I
don't want her to feel like a performing poodle, and my "plan" is to
stop this as she aquires more language or allows more cuddling and
physical affection. She's making HUGE strides daily but it's still
been 2 months and it could be years before she returns love or even
understands the concept of being loved and belonging. I feel strongly
that I have to nourish the good feelings she gets by pleasing me.
Were there any other way that I could see, I would use it.

So, please tell me if I'm doing something bad by doing this or if
there are other options for showing affection and love to a child who
doesn't understand "I love you" and doesn't understand kissing and is
just now showing rare interest in hugs.

Thank you,
Karen

--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."

- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen

Can you use the clapping in cheering in other contexts and invite her
to clap and cheer with you? Like watch Dora or Diego or SuperWhy- it
seems like those shows want the kids to get involved. You could do
all the clapping and cheering and repeating words with them.

If you have a dog, have him fetch and cheer & clap for him when he
retrieves the items.

Maybe take her to a soccer game or something.

I'm just trying to brainstorm ideas. I think it is so wonderful what
you are doing, that I wish I could help.

Karen

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> I am trying to wordcraft this post carefully but I may misstep. If
I
> write something here that seems like I'm being insensitive or
> uncaring, please either ask me if this is what I meant or assume
this
> is NOT what I meant.
>
> OK, my question is about Morgan.
>
> Morgan - adopted from China 8 weeks ago. She is 3.5 and I'm pretty
> certain has institutional autism but is blossoming under love,
> consistant care, absence of violence, good food and ample
stimulation.
> She has VERY limited language. She understands a lot of english,
but
> says few words and babbles a lot. She has no chinese that I can
> discover. (In fact she actively ignores all Asian adults.) OK...so
> she's 3.5 yrs old, but she's developmentally 8-12 months old and
> emotionally about 3-5 months old. So this is not your average
> circumstance.
>
> Here's the thing, poopy diapers (yes she's not potty trained and
> that's OK) go directly outside into the tote. Wet diapers I throw
> away into the trash can in the kitchen. About 3 days ago I handed
her
> the diaper and asked her to throw it away. Mostly I did that to
check
> her language aquisition since she doesn't speak much. If I
say "Give
> this to Daddy" we get nothing. She doesn't even look at him. So
> anyway, it was not an exercise in control or domination. I did it
to
> see if she had the word "trash" and "diaper". She apparently does
> know what the trash can is, but not the diaper, so in fact she may
> just be imitating me which is OK too. She likes to do the things I
> do. Anyway, now when there is a wet diaper I hand it to her and say
> "Would you throw this in the trash please?" and she VERY happily
does
> it. After it's in the bin she claps and says "YAY!!!!" and so do
I.
> This pleases her. She wants to know we are happy with her and our
> opportunities to show her this are limited to her "performing"
because
> she rarely (though more often now than 8 weeks ago) will tolerate
> cuddling. It's not easy to show a pre-verbal child with a tenuous
> grasp of the language love and affection if she also doesn't want to
> be kissed and hugged. So anyway, she does know clapping and
cheering
> are good and she *likes this* a lot. A whole lot. BUT here's the
> question, am I teaching her that to get my approval she has to do
> things I ask of her?
>
> If I am doing this, can someone suggest another avenue to praise -->
> happiness because she spent 3.5 years in a crib with little contact,
> and most of that contact was abusive. I don't want to cheer for her
> indiscriminantly, because she doesn't make many connections really.
> So if she's just laying on the floor drinking her milk, and I cheer,
> she will be confused or ignore it assuming it was for someone
else. I
> don't want her to feel like a performing poodle, and my "plan" is to
> stop this as she aquires more language or allows more cuddling and
> physical affection. She's making HUGE strides daily but it's still
> been 2 months and it could be years before she returns love or even
> understands the concept of being loved and belonging. I feel
strongly
> that I have to nourish the good feelings she gets by pleasing me.
> Were there any other way that I could see, I would use it.
>
> So, please tell me if I'm doing something bad by doing this or if
> there are other options for showing affection and love to a child
who
> doesn't understand "I love you" and doesn't understand kissing and
is
> just now showing rare interest in hugs.
>
> Thank you,
> Karen
>
> --
> "In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
> through our children we reveal our reality."
>
> - Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul
>
> http://temptabo.blogspot.com/
>

Karen Swanay

Yes that's it! She also can't feed herself so dinner time is a lot of
clapping and cheering when she manages to get the spoon into her
mouth. And if I don't being the cheer, she will do it herself. She's
very pleased by her accomplishments and we celebrate them with her.
That's exactly what it is, celebrating her milestones even though they
aren't the "biggies" others celebrate, they are huge to her. And
actually, it's pretty funny, today when my husband tossed out the
poopy diaper in the tote, Morgan was by the door and watched him and
then clapped and cheered for HIM when he did it.

OK *whew* I got one right. And of course, she would be free to refuse
to toss the diaper if she didn't want to, but she really wants to toss
them, grabbing for them almost before we are done wrapping them up.

Thanks Pam!
Karen

On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> Think about it more as celebrating with her - maybe that will help.
> Like when a baby takes his first steps or says his first words - we
> get all excited and happy and that IS reinforcing, of course, but
> we're not doing it to "train" them, we're doing it because it is a
> genuine emotion - joy.
--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."

- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

Karen Swanay

Would you mind sharing what he said or a synopsis of it?
Karen

On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Jodi Bezzola <jodibezzola@...> wrote:

> My own rather short experience is all I have to offer here. What really
> cleared up the whole praise thing for dh and I is Alfie Kohn's book
> Unconditional Parenting, and there is also a dvd of same if that is
> preferred. He was just in Calgary so a bunch of us went to see him, and he
> makes *alot* of sense.
>
> Jodi
--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."

- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

Nicole Willoughby

I think we have to look at these cases a bit differently than normal in some ways. For example I say things like good sitting! to my severly autistic son but wouldnt say it to my girls or other peoples kids ( i wont bother explaining here but feel free to ask if ya wanna know )

Id like to share a few things from when my son was that age ...take or leave :)

Now at 6 he really loves deep pressure and will somewhat help with teeth brushing and tolerate me doing it . At 3 that wasnt the case . He didnt spontaneouly crawl in my lap like my girls do , didnt like being touched, etc.

Id call him and his big sister would say lets go see mommy and try to get him to come with her. If he decided to come see me Id have something he liked ...preferred foods , things that spin for him and say something liek oh Im so glad you came to see me i have ..x...for you.

We would also play kiss and hug the bear. mom kisses bear, mom kisses sister, sister kisses bear ...bear is presented to nate to be kissed.

My intentions wernt to train to come when called or kiss on command but to show him we valued him and wanted him there with us and that one of the main ways we show love and affection is through cuddles , hugs, kisses et.


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bhmjones

--- In [email protected], "Karen Swanay"
<luvbullbreeds@...> wrote:
>
> BUT here's the
> question, am I teaching her that to get my approval she has to do
> things I ask of her?

Yes. But...... If she respects you, then your approval will be very
important to her, as well as anyone else she ever respects. If she
fears you, then she'll do as you say simply out of fear. If she does
not respect you and does not fear you, she'll only do what you ask if
she wants to. I am getting the impression that a version of the
latter is what you prefer most, for her to do what she wants because
she wants and not because someone is coercing her. In our society, it
is perfectly acceptable for a parent to coerce the actions of
children, remember we are all born uncivilized. The only thing you'd
be wise to make sure of is that everything you coerce your child to
do is what is acceptable by society. If you trust yourself to do so,
then you'll be ok.


> If I am doing this, can someone suggest another avenue to praise -->
> happiness because she spent 3.5 years in a crib with little contact,
> and most of that contact was abusive. I don't want to cheer for her
> indiscriminantly, because she doesn't make many connections really.
> So if she's just laying on the floor drinking her milk, and I cheer,
> she will be confused or ignore it assuming it was for someone
else. I
> don't want her to feel like a performing poodle, and my "plan" is to
> stop this as she aquires more language or allows more cuddling and
> physical affection. She's making HUGE strides daily but it's still
> been 2 months and it could be years before she returns love or even
> understands the concept of being loved and belonging. I feel
strongly
> that I have to nourish the good feelings she gets by pleasing me.
> Were there any other way that I could see, I would use it.
>
> So, please tell me if I'm doing something bad by doing this or if
> there are other options for showing affection and love to a child
who
> doesn't understand "I love you" and doesn't understand kissing and
is
> just now showing rare interest in hugs.
>
> Thank you,
> Karen
>

The cold hard factual unromanticized meaning of "love" is simply- a
desire to protect. She will desire to protect/love you when you
become valuable to her. We humans tend to protect/love/value those
who nurture the emotions that provoke euphoric feelings in us. In
other words this child, just like every other human, does understand
love, she simply isn't going to accept/trust that you love her until
you break thru the barrier of trust that she's been forced to build
all her life. You'll break thru by persistently and continually
making her happy and she'll reciprocate when she figures out that it
is an advantage to her to do so, it's how we are all wired. If you
make sure every day is a happy day for her, then her past will become
less and less an influence on her psyche and the happiness will
become the dominate influence on her psyche. It is not something you
have to over think, it will happen naturally.

Karen, I have to say that even tho I am a nihilist, I still admire
people such as yourself that not only show such empathy to this child
but will actually make the commitment to adopt and raise her in a
much happier environment. Thank you!

Brad

diana jenner

On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 8:08 PM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>
wrote:

> And of course, she would be free to refuse
> to toss the diaper if she didn't want to, but she really wants to toss
> them, grabbing for them almost before we are done wrapping them up.
>
>
>
>


Cheer for the No!s too :) It's communication we're celebrating! ::vbg::
Have you thought about using Baby Signs (it's not *pure* ASL, though
conceptual and easy to understand)? I think they'll help bridge the language
gap (most kids stop signing, once their verbal language & tongue control
catch up to their brains, AND there are huge benefits to those on the Autism
Spectrum). And, if she becomes used to them with you, it may help with the
eye-contact aversion if DH uses them too :)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Karen Swanay

Can't use sign because she won't look. It's very complicated to
explain, if she wants to look she looks but if she doesn't she won't.
If I call her name and she expects something like a snack, she will
look right at me but she looks at my face not my hands. I tried
signing but it's not working. We bought Baby First TV for her which
is on most of the day and they have a part where they sign, and she
watches that but her hand-eye coordination is VERY bad...which makes
it very hard to sign. Additionally her fine motor skills are awful
too, but getting better now that she has small things to manipulate.
(This is why she doesn't feed herself.) Right now she's on the floor
watching Baby First TV and eating Kix cereal which is good for her
hand-eye and FMS, but she likes it too =)

And she does have some language, I know she understands way more than
she says, but she says her name, she can say "more" and "do that" so
we've come leaps and bounds in just 2 months. And she doesn't refuse
to make eye-contact with my husband, she's actually more affectionate
with him than me, but it's all on her terms which is fine, but that
means if I call her, she may not look up or come. Which again is OK,
and I'd be fine with if she were a "normal" kid but a lot of the
reason she ignores is because she has no concept of self-need which is
not OK. I want her to know what she wants and needs IS important now
after all these years.

I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining about her because I'm not.
She's doing AMAZINGLY well...much better than I ever dreamed she would
do. I just want to avoid making mistakes by travelling down the
familiar parenting path with Morgan. But since this isn't the same as
a "normal" (pfft I hate that word) kid and a "normal" situation I have
to be doubly careful because our main business right now is bonding,
not language aquisition, or compliance, or anything else. She has to
learn that if she has a want or a need, people will appear who care
that she's happy and will help her. The normal course that infants
learn, that's where we are. And I think we are doing OK, but it can
take years (I don't know if it will or not) for her to understand the
concept of "family" and "love" and so I don't want to/can't wait to
begin showing her affection and that she's accepted until she is
willing to be hugged and loved on. (AND I don't want to force
physical affection on her either.) So I take my cuddling
opportunities where I can get them and use the cheering for her
milestones where they come. I also cheer her when she goes down the
slide at the park, I tell her "good job" when she has been trying
something and succeeds (she says that too) etc. I just don't want to
mess this up. I want to parent her better than I did with my boys but
it's easier to undo the mistakes I made with the boys because I can
tell them I screwed up and I can hug and kiss them you know? If you
think about your kids, imagine not being able to physically touch them
in an affectionate way, and them not knowing the word "Love" as a word
or a concept. It does change the way things work or at least that's
what I see here.

But I also want to make it clear she's a very happy kid. She laughs
all day long, is tickled to death over the simplest things, and seems
genuinely surprised (although less so now) and happy that we care what
she wants and will do things for and with her. I just don't want to
make mistakes.

Thanks all!
Karen

--
"In the facades we put on for others we demonstrate our potential;
through our children we reveal our reality."

- Lawrence Kelemen, To Kindle A Soul

http://temptabo.blogspot.com/

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>

The only thing you'd
be wise to make sure of is that everything you coerce your child to
do is what is acceptable by society. If you trust yourself to do so,
then you'll be ok.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Huh?

There are a lot of things acceptable by society that shouldn't be
forced on children.

What are you talking about?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

brad jones

Yeah, I worded that incorrectly. I meant that society accepts things such as civility and manners, and it is ok with society if you coerce that on your child, and the flip side would be that society does not agree with teaching your child to be rude, crude, menacing, etc etc... my point is that most every behaviour other than the ones necessary for survival are taught and not natural. So it is ok to teach/coerce your child these things... She asked if what she was doing was ok....

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
-----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>

The only thing you'd
be wise to make sure of is that everything you coerce your child to
do is what is acceptable by society. If you trust yourself to do so,
then you'll be ok.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Huh?

There are a lot of things acceptable by society that shouldn't be
forced on children.

What are you talking about?

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: brad jones <bhmjones@...>


Yeah, I worded that incorrectly. I meant that society accepts things
such as
civility and manners, and it is ok with society if you coerce that on
your
child,

-=-=-=-=-

Yes, as a rule, this is true.

-=-=-=-==-

and the flip side would be that society does not agree with teaching
your
child to be rude, crude, menacing, etc etc..

-=-=-=-=--=

Except that a common way to *teach* civility and manners is to be rude,
crude, and menacing.

Unfortunately, the lesson *learned* is not the lesson *taught*, and
children become rude, crude menacing adults because of the manner in
which these things are coerced.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

my point is that most every behaviour other than the ones necessary for
survival are taught and not natural.
So it is ok to teach/coerce your child these things..

-=-=-=-=-=-

I'm just not sure this is true. What's "natural" is what, as a social
animal, you experience in a social environment. Because we're social,
we learn best what's modeled for us.

A prime example is chores:

Seeing an adult model a *joy* in caring for himself and others becomes
something a child *wants* to do as he ages.

What most parents do is complain of having to do these things and then
*make* children DO them. Then they wonder why the child doesn't *want*
to.E learn what is modeled for us.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

bhmjones

> and the flip side would be that society does not agree with
teaching
> your
> child to be rude, crude, menacing, etc etc..
>
> -=-=-=-=--=
>
> Except that a common way to *teach* civility and manners is to be
rude,
> crude, and menacing.
>
> Unfortunately, the lesson *learned* is not the lesson *taught*, and
> children become rude, crude menacing adults because of the manner
in
> which these things are coerced.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
unless the parent employs the same technique you talk about below and
that is to teach by example....



> my point is that most every behaviour other than the ones necessary
for
> survival are taught and not natural.
> So it is ok to teach/coerce your child these things..
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> I'm just not sure this is true. What's "natural" is what, as a
social
> animal, you experience in a social environment. Because we're
social,
> we learn best what's modeled for us.
>
> A prime example is chores:
>
> Seeing an adult model a *joy* in caring for himself and others
becomes
> something a child *wants* to do as he ages.
>
> What most parents do is complain of having to do these things and
then
> *make* children DO them. Then they wonder why the child doesn't
*want*
> to.E learn what is modeled for us.
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
Yes I agree, but the OP here stated that she needed immediate
solutions for a child in a red-zone state, it isn't like she's
starting from scratch here...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>

unless the parent employs the same technique you talk about below and
that is to teach by example....

-=-=-=-=-=-

But I was addressing your assertion about coercion because society
condones it.

You can't really have both.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

> my point is that most every behaviour other than the ones necessary
>for survival are taught and not natural. So it is ok to teach/coerce
your child these things..


Yes I agree, but the OP here stated that she needed immediate
solutions for a child in a red-zone state, it isn't like she's
starting from scratch here...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So coercion is OK in that case?

*I* think *every* behavior is natural. It just depends on the
culture/society/family/environment the child grows up in. What's
natural for me may not be natural for you because of where you were
raised---or by whom. As parents we can chose whether our children's
behavior is modeled or coerced. We have that choice. Both ways are
"natural." But the lesson learned may not be the same.

She IS starting from scratch. Really we ALL are. Until it's "second
nature." every time we change how we react to things or speak to our
kids or behave in certain situations,---EACH time, we are starting from
scratch. It can become habit after a while---and as hard as I try to
get it right every time, I still slip up (I snapped last night). So
it's *still* starting from scratch for me (each and every moment). But
because it happens less and less---and because my children get older
and older (!), we're all better able to deal with my learning-takes. <G>


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

bhmjones

-----------------------------------------
>--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bhmjones <bhmjones@...>
>
> unless the parent employs the same technique you talk about below
and
> that is to teach by example....
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> But I was addressing your assertion about coercion because society
> condones it.
>
> You can't really have both.
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
-----------------------------------------

No, I'm saying that coercion can be/include leading by example, so
yes it can be both ways. In other words, coercion isn't always rude,
crude and menacing. I think you and I perhaps aren't thinking about
the same thing in some cases. I hope you forgive my ineptitude there.


------------------------------------------
> Yes I agree, but the OP here stated that she needed immediate
> solutions for a child in a red-zone state, it isn't like she's
> starting from scratch here...
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> So coercion is OK in that case?
>
> *I* think *every* behavior is natural. It just depends on the
> culture/society/family/environment the child grows up in. What's
> natural for me may not be natural for you because of where you were
> raised---or by whom. As parents we can chose whether our children's
> behavior is modeled or coerced. We have that choice. Both ways are
> "natural." But the lesson learned may not be the same.
>-=-=-=-=-=-
------------------------------------------

Then you and I aren't really saying different things here, we are
just wording it differently.


------------------------------------------
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> She IS starting from scratch. Really we ALL are. Until it's "second
> nature." every time we change how we react to things or speak to
our
> kids or behave in certain situations,---EACH time, we are starting
from
> scratch. It can become habit after a while---and as hard as I try
to
> get it right every time, I still slip up (I snapped last night). So
> it's *still* starting from scratch for me (each and every moment).
But
> because it happens less and less---and because my children get
older
> and older (!), we're all better able to deal with my learning-
takes. <G>
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
------------------------------------------
Ok, by "starting from scratch" here I meant she isn't starting with a
new born child to work with, she is starting this "from scratch"
process with a full grown child. So you are correct, the process
is "from scratch", and I am correct, the child is not "from scratch".

Thanks for discussing this with me, I was beginning to think none of
my posts were making it to y'all....