Elizabeth L.

I just want to say that I look forward to Kelly's L. returns on most posts. I will always think twice about putting myself out there to be critique :). It gives me hope that it will someday be possible for me to just be "right". That I won't have to say - "What would Kelly say?" Most days I still get it wrong but change is possible. Keep it comin' girl!

Thanks
Elizabeth

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth L. <cloudlady@...>


I just want to say that I look forward to Kelly's L. returns on most
posts. I
will always think twice about putting myself out there to be critique
:). It
gives me hope that it will someday be possible for me to just be
"right". That
I won't have to say - "What would Kelly say?" Most days I still get it
wrong
but change is possible. Keep it comin' girl!


-=-=-=-==

<G> I'll try. Thanks.

It really helps on this list---as well as all the other unschooling
lists---to understand that no one's here to make you feel bad. Everyone
here that posts is trying to help. We *WANT* you and your children to
be happy and at peace.

If you're feeling attacked and bombarded, that's a really good time to
look around, take a deep breath, and figure out why you're feeling that
way. No one's coming at you in an all out attack---we're all here to
help.

My concern for this 11 year old we've been discussing this week is that
he's feeling as attacked at home as his mother feels she is on the
list. No one's said that she's a horrible mother who doesn't love her
kids. No one but *her*. That's how she FEELS. Her son may have the same
feelings---that he's being attacked and that he's hearing things from
his mom that she hasn't really said. To the person on the *receiving*
end, it doesn't matter what the other is saying; what matters is how
the receiver is feeling and how the receiver "hears" what's being said.
It's ALL about perception.

No one needs to "think twice" about posting. I'm not "out to get you"!
<g> But if you post, I want to help. A lot of *my* helping comes from
examining what you write. I don't know you. I don't have a vendetta out
on you! <G> Nine times out of ten, you're anonymous.

And it's *not* just about the poster. Karen's still here, but sometimes
posters leave after hearing something they aren't ready for. That's OK.
Often they come back in a few weeks or months. But when things get this
raw and open, very often it hits close to home for another 10-12
readers who *don't* post. It makes a difference in someone else's life.

When I was just starting out, I don't think I ever posted about a
difficult time for me, but there were plenty of people who did. And the
answers they got helped me grasp this weird concept of children as
worthy beings with few life tools. I just read and read and read. I'd
go back and read the archives. Often I scratched my head at how in the
world that would work. Often I got angry inside at the folks doing the
writing (they never knew). Sometimes I'd go out in my garden and yell
at the ground and the weeds about how CRAZY and mean these folks
were---WHO DID THEY THINK THEY WERE???

It wasn't long before I figured out that they were right---and that I
was fighting because I was so wrong and couldn't make that leap.

Of course, NOW it makes sooo much sense! <G> But parts didn't at first.
I had to think through them---some for a very long time.

It's GOOD that Karen posted---whether she wants to hear the advice or
not. Whether she accepts it as valid or not. It may help a dozen others
with the same/similar issue.

There were a lot more posts I was planning to "pick apart"---but I
think I'll leave them for a while. Karen will figure it out---or not.
Only she can change her.

If anyone else has something they'd like to add, I'd be happy to
attack---er---ummmm----I mean *address* that too. <g>



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Amanda Horein

-=-=-=-
Often they come back in a few weeks or months
-=-=-=-
Or three years. Yep, it took me that long to "get it", but it finally
happened. Thanks to women like Kelly and Sandra and Joyce and Amy Carpenter.

--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/

"What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold from them
impoverishes them."

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Amanda Horein <horein@...>

-=-=-=-
Often they come back in a few weeks or months
-=-=-=-
Or three years. Yep, it took me that long to "get it", but it finally
happened. Thanks to women like Kelly and Sandra and Joyce and Amy
Carpenter.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

That's wild, Amanda!

Could you share what happened during those three years?

What changed? What made the difference for you?



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Amanda Horein

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-=-=-=-
Often they come back in a few weeks or months
-=-=-=-
Or three years. Yep, it took me that long to "get it", but it finally
happened. Thanks to women like Kelly and Sandra and Joyce and Amy
Carpenter.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

That's wild, Amanda!

Could you share what happened during those three years?

What changed? What made the difference for you?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marti was 4 when I discovered I could homeschool her. I read up on
homeschooling and discovered unschooling. I got on the Michigan Unschoolers
list and asked for all kinds of advice. I got it and if you look in the
archives you will see that I got really frustrated and upset over many of
the things sent.

When Marti was 4 1/2 I had thoughts of going back to school because we
needed the money that would eventually come from me going back to work. So,
I put her in preschool. She loved it. I decided not to go to school.

Then, I was under pressure (some from myself, some from my in-laws) to put
Marti in Kindergarten. She was there for 3 weeks and we pulled her out. She
was 5 and broken hearted because she couldn't go to see her friends. Out of
EVERYTHING I have had to deal with considering sending my kids to school
(because I felt like and inadequate teacher), homeschooling and unschooling,
THAT was the HARDEST thing to deal with. Marti wanted to go to school for
the friends and having to say no was heartbreaking to me. We got past that
(and if you recall I recently posted because she doesn't want to leave the
house now, lol!).

What would have been her 1st grade year, last year, I tried to write up a
curriculum (we couldn't afford that boxed stuff), but Marti hated it so I
gave up.

We were still pretty controlling through this whole ordeal though.
Especially with the video/computer games and our excuse was that she was
very emotional when she played video games for too long. The control of said
games continued up until about last August. That is when the changes to
radical unschooling really began to take hold.

I attribute the changes to many things. First and foremost, to my
nephew<http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/i/isaacclaude/>.
My best friend (since birth, our mothers were best friends too) had been
trying to get pregnant for years and years. Had had many miscarriages and
had finally carried Issac past the miscarriage stage, but for reasons
possibly attributed to an infection in her placenta (which was found during
pathology) Isaac came at 26 weeks 5 days at 2 lbs 4 oz. I can not even begin
to describe how tiny he was. He died 18 days later.

My world turned upside down. I cursed God and I questioned God. I even
questioned whether or not God even existed. It was a spiritual journey that
I am actually still on (but in a different place). But as life set in after
the initial shock I began to question other areas of my life, including the
treatment of my children. So, Isaac was my FIRST "Huge step" moment.

Another of my "huge step" moments came from my oldest. We were sitting in
her bedroom and I was trying to "help" her do a kidoku (like sudoku, but for
kids) and in all honesty I was making it a hell of a lot harder for her
really. She wasn't even trying (this was my thought then, not now). The
details get a bit fuzzy here, but I got so angry with her that I crumpled up
the paper she was working on while yelling at her and threw it across the
room.

I know, I can see all of you thinking "OMG!"

But the one person I turned to in that moment was probably one of the best
people I could have turned to. Sandra Dodd. I visited her site, I read and
read and read and read and read. I printed and read some more. I got better
and worse, better and worse, better and worse. I recently wrote about a few
weeks ago and me yelling at my youngest so obviously I still have things to
work on, but I believe that was my transition moment (someone else related
this moment to birth when the transition period of birth is the hardest
period) because I haven't had anything near that extreme since.

If you would have told me 3 1/2 years ago though, when I first stumbled upon
unschooling, that I would be a radical unschooler, I would have told you you
were crazy, but here I am. "Crazy" with you all. I thank God for those early
moments when all those wonderful ladies that I argued with, planted the seed
for me to be a better mom.

There were of course more little moments, but I shared the biggest ones.

--
Amanda
Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/

"What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold from them
impoverishes them."

My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

I just wanted to say that I found this story heartwrenching, yet
inspiring at the same time. Thank you for sharing it with all of us.

-Heather


> Marti was 4 when I discovered I could homeschool her. I read up on
> homeschooling and discovered unschooling. I got on the Michigan
Unschoolers
> list and asked for all kinds of advice. I got it and if you look in the
> archives you will see that I got really frustrated and upset over
many of
> the things sent.
>
> When Marti was 4 1/2 I had thoughts of going back to school because we
> needed the money that would eventually come from me going back to
work. So,
> I put her in preschool. She loved it. I decided not to go to school.
>
> Then, I was under pressure (some from myself, some from my in-laws)
to put
> Marti in Kindergarten. She was there for 3 weeks and we pulled her
out. She
> was 5 and broken hearted because she couldn't go to see her friends.
Out of
> EVERYTHING I have had to deal with considering sending my kids to school
> (because I felt like and inadequate teacher), homeschooling and
unschooling,
> THAT was the HARDEST thing to deal with. Marti wanted to go to
school for
> the friends and having to say no was heartbreaking to me. We got
past that
> (and if you recall I recently posted because she doesn't want to
leave the
> house now, lol!).
>
> What would have been her 1st grade year, last year, I tried to write
up a
> curriculum (we couldn't afford that boxed stuff), but Marti hated it
so I
> gave up.
>
> We were still pretty controlling through this whole ordeal though.
> Especially with the video/computer games and our excuse was that she was
> very emotional when she played video games for too long. The control
of said
> games continued up until about last August. That is when the changes to
> radical unschooling really began to take hold.
>
> I attribute the changes to many things. First and foremost, to my
> nephew<http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/i/isaacclaude/>.
> My best friend (since birth, our mothers were best friends too) had been
> trying to get pregnant for years and years. Had had many
miscarriages and
> had finally carried Issac past the miscarriage stage, but for reasons
> possibly attributed to an infection in her placenta (which was found
during
> pathology) Isaac came at 26 weeks 5 days at 2 lbs 4 oz. I can not
even begin
> to describe how tiny he was. He died 18 days later.
>
> My world turned upside down. I cursed God and I questioned God. I even
> questioned whether or not God even existed. It was a spiritual
journey that
> I am actually still on (but in a different place). But as life set
in after
> the initial shock I began to question other areas of my life,
including the
> treatment of my children. So, Isaac was my FIRST "Huge step" moment.
>
> Another of my "huge step" moments came from my oldest. We were
sitting in
> her bedroom and I was trying to "help" her do a kidoku (like sudoku,
but for
> kids) and in all honesty I was making it a hell of a lot harder for her
> really. She wasn't even trying (this was my thought then, not now). The
> details get a bit fuzzy here, but I got so angry with her that I
crumpled up
> the paper she was working on while yelling at her and threw it
across the
> room.
>
> I know, I can see all of you thinking "OMG!"
>
> But the one person I turned to in that moment was probably one of
the best
> people I could have turned to. Sandra Dodd. I visited her site, I
read and
> read and read and read and read. I printed and read some more. I got
better
> and worse, better and worse, better and worse. I recently wrote
about a few
> weeks ago and me yelling at my youngest so obviously I still have
things to
> work on, but I believe that was my transition moment (someone else
related
> this moment to birth when the transition period of birth is the hardest
> period) because I haven't had anything near that extreme since.
>
> If you would have told me 3 1/2 years ago though, when I first
stumbled upon
> unschooling, that I would be a radical unschooler, I would have told
you you
> were crazy, but here I am. "Crazy" with you all. I thank God for
those early
> moments when all those wonderful ladies that I argued with, planted
the seed
> for me to be a better mom.
>
> There were of course more little moments, but I shared the biggest ones.
>
> --
> Amanda
> Wife to Roger (together 10 years)
> Mum to Marti (7.5) and Lilly (4)
> Babysitter to Stella (3.5)
> http://whatmykidstaughtme.blogspot.com/
>
> "What you give to your children enriches them. What you withhold
from them
> impoverishes them."
>
> My love to Uncle Jesse's family. Know that I love and miss him.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Julie Hiniker

Amanda,
i haven't been posting much as I am still struggling with the whole unschooly thing.. But had to say that i so understand the monumental change that losing a baby close to you can have on the rest of your life. We lost our second oldest child 24 yaers ago and I still think of that when responding to my children and grandchildren.

I am so not quite there yet on the unschooling thing but trying to get there. Right now we are sort of totally deschooling as we have decided as a family to do whatever it takes to keep my my mom (stage 4 cancer) at home as long as possible. the children have been having tons of screen time with no limits and YET they are still keeping the house together and comforting me when they have a chance.. they all found out this week that baby 13 is on the way and I have never had so many hugs, offers of back rubs and just plain cuddling!We have had great conversations about the games they are playing and the frustrations when one son signed up for something online to be rejected by the site as he is not 13.. anyone know any great online games for younger guys (age 9)??

A couple of the boys want me to help them start a study club to help them find out some info that they want. Something about making it a club seems to appeal to them as suggestions to just read a book about it went over like a brick.. they are currently making notes as to what their club should look like so I can help them set it up...
Anyway just wanted to send empathetic thoughts and feelings your way and thank you for the fun pics and articles on your blog!
Julie
mom to the darlin' dozen.(Hoping we will be changing this to the bakers dozen in about 7 months!) Grandma to Paul and Ryne and soon to be born Peyten!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

My son had the same problem with Runescape. He is 9. Here's what i
did. I went and erased the cookies on the computer and resigned up
with my name and age.


>We have had great conversations about the games they are playing and
>the frustrations when one son signed up for something online to be
>rejected by the site as he is not 13.. anyone know any great online
>games for younger guys (age 9)??

Julie Hiniker

Thought about that... have several older children signed up and they said that we could just create an older version of him... trying to decide if I am comfortable with this as an example for them...

Decision delayed tonight by a dad who wanted to watch movies with a lapful of children!

Julie
mom to the darlin' dozen.(Hoping we will be changing this to the bakers dozen in about 7 months!) Grandma to Paul and Ryne and soon to be born Peyten!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adrean Clark

What about Disney's Toontown? We just started playing that and DS
seems to enjoy it.

Adrean

Julie Hiniker

Thanks for the idea! We discovered that also this weekend so its where he is playing now..
Julie
mom to the darlin' dozen.(Hoping we will be changing this to the bakers dozen in about 7 months!) Grandma to Paul and Ryne and soon to be born Peyten!



What about Disney's Toontown? We just started playing that and DS
seems to enjoy it.

Adrean




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]