seccotine_ch

OK, this might be a bit OT, but I try anyway.

I have a dear friend who is teacher and who has 3 kids approximately
my kids'age. Of course we have long talks about education whenever we
can - we are very close for certain things and for other, our views
are completely opposite ! But we like sharing and learning from each
other, so ... (and she's the sweetest person I know, but this is
another question :))

She told me recently that she gave money to her 9 yo daughter when
the girl was doing her homework without "fighting". I was a bit
surprised and told her that I wouldn't do that, that it doesn't seem
like a good idea to me. Anyway. After this talk, I started
brainstorming : what could she do to solve this homework problem
(except from unschooling, which is not possible yet as she is the
breadwinner and her husband would certainly not hear about it !)
WITHOUT forcing her daughter in a way or another.

This is the ideas I had :

- have a real (I mean friendly) discussion with her daughter to
understand why she doesn't want to do her homework : is it because
she finds the task tedious, is it because she'd rather rest a bit
after a school day, is it because she'd rather do something else with
her mother, etc.
- find ways to make her homework more playful (my friend told me
about multiplication facts and verbs tenses) and more meaningful too.
- imply her daughter in the process : ok, your teacher wants you to
learn these things and it's really not interesting. What could we do ?

I also thought of a few ways to play with multiplication facts, so
that they could learn them without sitting at a table, with my
friend "quizzing" her daughter. Someone said once that you should
never quizz a kid about something s/he doesn't know. If she knows,
it's fun, you can do it together, try to be quick, and so on, but if
she does not, she will feel miserable.

I know that here is a list where we talk about unschooling and not
about "pleasant schooling", but my idea is to help my friend to see
things differently and find other solutions, solutions in which her
daughter would be really taken seriously. I'm not trying
to "convince" her into unschooling, I don't think it's possible. I
just want to slightly move her viewpoint, so that she won't tell me
anymore (and won't think it, either) "but what else can I do ? I'm
tired of fighting with her". She is very interested in my unschooling
process, and the discussions we have are really open.

She doesn't read English either, because if she did, I would have
given her a few useful links ;p

If there is any suggestion ... :)

Many thanks
Helen in Geneva, Switzerland

trektheory

She might also help her dd come up with helpful tricks and mnemonics
-- some can be silly, like "7 and 8 make the 56th state" (one my ds
came home with in elementary school), or the 9 times digits all add up
to 9, and such. Skip counting can help, too, or using the facts you
know to figure out the facts you don't. (7x8, for instance -- when I
have a brain fart, I rely on 7x7 = 49 and add another 7; takes longer,
but I get there, and for some reason the squares are easier to
remember. 7x8, btw, is, for some strange reason, one of the harder
ones for most to remember. Go figure.)

I think it is great that you and your friend can have those
conversations, and that she is open to alternative ways of looking at
things! It's always best when we don't set up adversarial relationships!

Linda


--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch"
<seccotine@...> wrote:
>
> OK, this might be a bit OT, but I try anyway.
>
> I have a dear friend who is teacher and who has 3 kids approximately
> my kids'age. Of course we have long talks about education whenever we
> can - we are very close for certain things and for other, our views
> are completely opposite ! But we like sharing and learning from each
> other, so ... (and she's the sweetest person I know, but this is
> another question :))
>
> She told me recently that she gave money to her 9 yo daughter when
> the girl was doing her homework without "fighting". I was a bit
> surprised and told her that I wouldn't do that, that it doesn't seem
> like a good idea to me. Anyway. After this talk, I started
> brainstorming : what could she do to solve this homework problem
> (except from unschooling, which is not possible yet as she is the
> breadwinner and her husband would certainly not hear about it !)
> WITHOUT forcing her daughter in a way or another.
>
> This is the ideas I had :
>
> - have a real (I mean friendly) discussion with her daughter to
> understand why she doesn't want to do her homework : is it because
> she finds the task tedious, is it because she'd rather rest a bit
> after a school day, is it because she'd rather do something else with
> her mother, etc.
> - find ways to make her homework more playful (my friend told me
> about multiplication facts and verbs tenses) and more meaningful too.
> - imply her daughter in the process : ok, your teacher wants you to
> learn these things and it's really not interesting. What could we do ?
>
> I also thought of a few ways to play with multiplication facts, so
> that they could learn them without sitting at a table, with my
> friend "quizzing" her daughter. Someone said once that you should
> never quizz a kid about something s/he doesn't know. If she knows,
> it's fun, you can do it together, try to be quick, and so on, but if
> she does not, she will feel miserable.
>
> I know that here is a list where we talk about unschooling and not
> about "pleasant schooling", but my idea is to help my friend to see
> things differently and find other solutions, solutions in which her
> daughter would be really taken seriously. I'm not trying
> to "convince" her into unschooling, I don't think it's possible. I
> just want to slightly move her viewpoint, so that she won't tell me
> anymore (and won't think it, either) "but what else can I do ? I'm
> tired of fighting with her". She is very interested in my unschooling
> process, and the discussions we have are really open.
>
> She doesn't read English either, because if she did, I would have
> given her a few useful links ;p
>
> If there is any suggestion ... :)
>
> Many thanks
> Helen in Geneva, Switzerland
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch"
<seccotine@...> wrote:
>> She told me recently that she gave money to her 9 yo daughter
when
> the girl was doing her homework without "fighting". I was a bit
> surprised and told her that I wouldn't do that, that it doesn't
seem
> like a good idea to me.

I used to think that, until Ray got really into Runescape and
playing with the economics there. He'll spend hours doing tedious
things (like wood-cutting) to earn virtual money. It occurred to me
that grades are used by schools as a sort of "token economy" but
that for some kids (like Ray) the kind of "payment" is too abstract
or otherwise meaniningless to be any kind of motivating factor. From
that perspective, offerring a kid real money as a way to induce him
or her to do school-work is actually supporting the overall school
paradigm. So if mom values the grades and wants her dd to value
them, it would be appropriate.

Now if you want to debate the value of rewards overall, that's
another matter ;)

> After this talk, I started
> brainstorming : what could she do to solve this homework problem

Well, this is sort of a tangent, but *why* does the dd have to do
the homework? Will there be disciplinary action if she doesn't, or
just a grade reduction? If its just a grade reduction, it could be
the girl's choice about whether or not to do it at all. More than
one school-kid has discovered over the years that homework is
irrelevant to learning, so mom might want to consider an
experiement - if dd doesn't do the homework and her grades are still
okay (albeit a little lower due to the missed assignments) - then
the homework is utterly useless as a means of learning the material.

If there is the possibility of disciplinary action, the mom could do
the homework *for* her - or tell her the answers while dd writes
them down. If mom wants to consider the matter from the perspective
of learning, its not that different from reading to a child as a
tool for helping her learn to read, and telling her words she
doesn't know when she's trying to read independently.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)

Donna Vanderlip

As a teacher myself I believe parents should be able to make decisions about whether or it is wise to fight with children about completing homework tasks. It defeats the whole idea about learning. I have taught for 20 years and I have never assigned homework. It was always available on the way out the door if kids wanted to do more of what they did in school but it was never mandated. Home time is too precious and really shouldn't be spent in a battle about school. There are no real studies that homework improves academics until perhaps high school. This is one of the many reasons I took my kids out of school and while I struggle with the whole idea still, our family life is less stressful, my kids are calm, happy and there are no battles to fight around homework.

On another note, I still feel a little anxious about what both Kora and Lukas stay away from. It is now about five months into the deschooling process and while I certainly see some moves away from screen time, I find myself in some turmoil over their lack of interest in reading and writing. I do look hard to see that they are reading it just isn't consistent and they rarely take themselves through a novel...which they used to love to do...They are both amazing writers but this isn't part of their daily lives at all. I am not so worried about academics I just keep feeling sad about how much they used to enjoy both reading and writing and how much we have made it part of our lives and now it seems to keep fading. I suppose I have to keep trusting the process....and I will...but I wander if this will come back....Thanks for the support....donna
Meredith <meredith@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "seccotine_ch"
<seccotine@...> wrote:
>> She told me recently that she gave money to her 9 yo daughter
when
> the girl was doing her homework without "fighting". I was a bit
> surprised and told her that I wouldn't do that, that it doesn't
seem
> like a good idea to me.

I used to think that, until Ray got really into Runescape and
playing with the economics there. He'll spend hours doing tedious
things (like wood-cutting) to earn virtual money. It occurred to me
that grades are used by schools as a sort of "token economy" but
that for some kids (like Ray) the kind of "payment" is too abstract
or otherwise meaniningless to be any kind of motivating factor. From
that perspective, offerring a kid real money as a way to induce him
or her to do school-work is actually supporting the overall school
paradigm. So if mom values the grades and wants her dd to value
them, it would be appropriate.

Now if you want to debate the value of rewards overall, that's
another matter ;)

> After this talk, I started
> brainstorming : what could she do to solve this homework problem

Well, this is sort of a tangent, but *why* does the dd have to do
the homework? Will there be disciplinary action if she doesn't, or
just a grade reduction? If its just a grade reduction, it could be
the girl's choice about whether or not to do it at all. More than
one school-kid has discovered over the years that homework is
irrelevant to learning, so mom might want to consider an
experiement - if dd doesn't do the homework and her grades are still
okay (albeit a little lower due to the missed assignments) - then
the homework is utterly useless as a means of learning the material.

If there is the possibility of disciplinary action, the mom could do
the homework *for* her - or tell her the answers while dd writes
them down. If mom wants to consider the matter from the perspective
of learning, its not that different from reading to a child as a
tool for helping her learn to read, and telling her words she
doesn't know when she's trying to read independently.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)






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One of the Wechts

<< There are no real studies that homework improves academics until perhaps
high school. >>

The Homework Myth by Alfie Kohn might be a place to start.
(His kids are not homeschooled so no conflict of interest : )
Also on looking a school differently, she might be willing to try

Guerrilla Learning
How to give you kids a real education with or without school.

Grace Llewellyn and Amy Silver

Beth in MD
whose favorite fun math thing is School House Rock
"Elementary my dear..."

Jessica

Another good one (and you have these where ever you go) is your hands which are great for the 9 times table... put the first (left) pinky down, everything to the right of it is the answer to 1x9.. 2nd finger down gives you 1 finger on the left and 8 on the right to make 2x9=18... 9x6, put your right thumb away & you'll see five fingers on the left hand & 4 to the right to make 54 & so on... I learned this in elementary school from another kid & one of my boys learned it from a teacher in 2nd grade...

This particular teacher was more unschooly than most & I loved talking to him: he believed in kids, didn't talk down to them & gave them "harder" work than they were "supposed" to have in 2nd grade because it was fun, not because they had to & the kids (at least my kids) loved what he taught & him...sadly he didn't stay with the elementary school, but was working at the middle school.. elementary schools need teachers like him... oh well... no biggie cuz my guys aren't in that district anymore...

Cheers,
Jessica

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Donna Vanderlip
<donnavanderlip@...> wrote:
>> On another note, I still feel a little anxious about what both
Kora and Lukas stay away from. It is now about five months into the
deschooling process and while I certainly see some moves away from
screen time, I find myself in some turmoil over their lack of
interest in reading and writing.
*********************

It might help you to keep in mind that kids (people in general) go
through cycles of interest and growth. I've seen that with
my "always" unschooled 6yo - for months she was alllllll about
drawing, but then her interest waned and for awhile, while she was
doing things all the time, she didn't really have a major passion
going on. Then all of a sudden she was all about cutting things out
of paper - it was as though the "drawing" part of her was "under
construction" and now its something more elaborate.

Other things, like reading or singing, she has cycles of interest
and disinterest. She doesn't seem to be growing in those areas
during the times of disinterest, she just finds other things more
fascinating for a time.

******************
I do look hard to see that they are reading it just isn't
consistent and they rarely take themselves through a novel...which
they used to love to do...They are both amazing writers but this
isn't part of their daily lives at all.
*******************

"Consistent" is an expectation that school fosters. Kids are
expected to read every day, write every day, do math problems every
day. That doesn't really reflect the way people persue interests in
real life. While its true that some people are avid readers life-
long, most "readers" go through phases - get all wrapped up in one
author, for example, and then move on to another. Or one genre. Same
thing with movies - ever had the urge to see absolutely everything
that Robin Williams ever performed in (for example, maybe you prefer
Woody Allen)?

Writing is similar - some people do write every day, but they don't
necessarily write the same things every day. One of my favorite
authors (Mercedes Lackey) says she likes to have a whole bunch of
projects going at once so that when she's not feeling creative in
one she can put it down and pick up another.

***screen time***

Just wanted to pull this phrase out and ask you to analyze it a bit
more. If your kids previously read a lot of novels, in particular,
are they watching shows and movies and playing games that have novel-
like qualities? That was something I found *myself* doing when we
first got Netflix, and then again when I discovered fantasy role-
playing computer games (there aren't nearly enough of these!) I had
been "trained" to think that movies and shows and games were somehow
less than reading, but when I was able to step away from that I
could see how I was choosing to watch and play the same sorts of
things I would choose to read.

Oh, boy, now I'm thinking about the relationship between Charles
Dickens and series television as its now being produced.... too much
coffee.

---Meredith (Mo 6, Ray 14)