Lesa

>>>cookie cutter unschooling life<<<

Enlighten me! What the heck is a cookie cutter unschooling life? Because I
ve never seen one! I have unschooling friends all over the place, those I
ve met and are good friends with and those I've never met and keep in
contact through yahoo groups, emails, and myspace. And not one of us lives
our unschooling lives the same way.

So was that just some rote way of saying that you aren't willing to step out
of the box that you've put your life and family in... and instead throwing
out that lame comment like we would all fall for it? You're lucky that
Sandra Dodd isn't active on this list because she'd rip that comment up one
side and down the other.

Lesa M.
Crunchy Unschooling mom to dd10
Currently Reading: "Traveling Mercies" by Anne Lamott
http://livinginfreedomeveryday.blogspot.com/
.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mauratracy

--- In [email protected], "Lesa" <lesajm@...> wrote:
>
> >>>cookie cutter unschooling life<<<
>
> Enlighten me! What the heck is a cookie cutter unschooling life? Because I
> ve never seen one! I have unschooling friends all over the place, those I
> ve met and are good friends with and those I've never met and keep in
> contact through yahoo groups, emails, and myspace. And not one of us lives
> our unschooling lives the same way.

You know.....a cookie cutter life is this life you're all describing, the one where we try to
meet everyone's needs all the time, where everyone is treated as equals, where we are
patient and responsive just about all the time, where we don't restrict our kids from
things, blah, blah, blah, the one about which books are written. If there's no such thing as
a cookie cutter unschooling life, then why does this list exist? Why are there books
written? If there's not one way of doing it, what are you all always talking about? Isn't this
list to help people learn a certain way of living with their children? I don't think I am so off
to use the term "cookie cutter life."

Come on. Why do you assume I am ignorant? I am a life long homeschooler, mostly an
unschoooler. I have been immersed in the un/homeschooling world since before my kids
were even school age. I *know* that every family is different. I know every family is going
to *look* different based on very many variables. Give me a break! That's not what I was
talking about, and why didn't *you* know that? Why did you assume otherwise?

> So was that just some rote way of saying that you aren't willing to step out
> of the box that you've put your life and family in

Excuse me? I post on this list, I think, just this one day, and you think you know me well
enough to make this comment? P-lease. Just what box do you think I put my family in?
You don't know us. What are you assuming? Seriously, that I want to know. That's a
ridiculous statement. Did I ever say I was unwilling to step out of a box? How did I imply
this? Why would I be here asking questions?! I, in fact, specifically said I wanted to
understand. Did you assume that I was only here to argue? You are wrong, and that's a
big mistake.

... and instead throwing
> out that lame comment

Nice. Way to be helpful. (And yes, that was sarcasm.) Because *you* misunderstood my
meaning you call my words lame. Is this, calling people's words lame, that respect thing
we model for our kids? We are to treat our kids with respect (of course) and model respect
for them....why do you think it's OK to treat me, a stranger, practically a guest in this
forum, someone coming here for help, with such disrespect ?

>like we would all fall for it?

Fall for it? Seriously, where are you coming from? Fall for it? Fall for what? I totally don't
get you, and I have no idea what you're talking about.

> You're lucky that
> Sandra Dodd isn't active on this list because she'd rip that comment up one
> side and down the other.

Well, yes, if she's anything like you, then, yes, I will consider myself lucky. I can't see how
it would be helpful to have any of my comments "rip(ped)....up one side and down the
other." In fact, if I got more replies like yours, or any like you suspect hers might have
been, I surely would not be here, able to dialogue with the people who were so generous
to take the time to kindly reply to me.

Why are you here, Lesa? Are you here to learn the basics of homeschooling, or are you
here to help others learn what you already know? If you want to be here to help people,
why would you come off like gangbusters thinking someone posting is a troll, just looking
for trouble? Why would you assume the worst? If you can't be kind and respectful and
offer help, then I think you should keep your comments to yourself.

Not that you'd care, but because of your comment, I was sooooooooo close to just
unsubbing and finding help for my journey elsewhere. How can I expect to get help from
someone so unkind? I would not want to learn from or model my life after someone who
behaved the way you did.

And finally, people of the list, is this typical, that someone would post in this brash way,
and no one comments? Don't ya'all call each other out? Or maybe you do so off-list. Or
am I alone in thinking Lesa's post rude? Some people will be disuaded from posting here,
unable to benefit from you all's help if they get replies like this. If you all want to be
helpful, wouldn't you want to rein in people who post with insufficient sensitivity?

Maura

Debra Rossing

What we're doing here, Maura, is not looking for "right" answers but
bouncing back to each other ideas of "this is my situation and I'm
trying to get from A to C but I'm stuck on B - got any ideas for getting
unstuck?" We're here for folks who come around saying "school was
killing my child, so I took him/her out and we homeschooled but that was
a battle and it was getting us nowhere. I was browsing through Yahoo
groups and saw this one. What's unschooling? I've read a bit and it
seems like it would be really good for our family. Can you help me
understand how to navigate the laws of my state and unschool at the same
time?" It's also for "We just pulled the kids out last fall and love our
newly free lives BUT the ILs are giving us a lot of grief over our
decision. How have y'all handled that?" And sometimes it's "Hey folks -
I'm just so tired of people questioning why I'm "still" nursing my 3 yr
old. Can I vent a bit?"

Yes, the *principles* look a lot alike but how it looks in practice is
different from family to family, person to person. It's about seeing
everyone, whether 2 or 92 as equally valid PEOPLE with equally valid
wants, needs, viewpoints. One phrase that gets used often is "would you
do/say/react the same way to this event if it was your
spouse/partner/neighbor? how would you react if your
spouse/partner/neighbor acted this way toward you?", perhaps reframing
things to jog out of that pre-set mindset. For instance, I just
mentioned to DH the other day that we (generic society we) work hard to
impart "do to others as you would have them do to you" so if our kid
hits another, we turn around and give him/her a smack on the butt or
send him/her into "solitary" aka time out. Bit of a mixed message
involved. So, part of what this board talks about is how to move away
from that societally conditioned reward/punishment paradigm in child
rearing to a paradigm that seeks to address the root cause of the
behavior rather than address the symptom (which also ties in with
parallel threads often seen of folks looking for alternatives to
mainstream westernized medical practices which tend to medicate the
symptoms away without necessarily looking at what is causing the
symptoms). Then, when we have at least an idea of the roots of the
situation, we can work *as a team* with the child and other members of
the family to find ways to address needs - sometimes it means that we
have to be pretty creative in finding workable compromises.

I've got a 9 yr old DS and often get "gee wish I had some of his energy!
does he ever slow down?" type comments. Finding ways to meet his need to
be active while also dealing with things such as DH's permanent hip
damage (sometimes even sitting is painful) and my work schedule and
health situations as well (type 2 diabetes plus hypothyroid often leave
me really tired in the evenings) requires lots of flexibility (mentally
if not physically) and lots of *discussion* - not talking "to" DS but
"with" DS. There have been times when I've posted with situations and
gotten feedback on "have you tried this? is this possible? what
about...?" and it's all good - some might not apply or be doable where
we are but some is and some triggers a whole new line of thinking -
"gee, that's not available but we do have this which is similar - we
could check that out and see if it might be doable" And sometimes I've
not even posted, just read a bit and thought "hey that's a cool idea! -
I'll see if we want to try doing that". We rarely say "No" flat out -
more often it's "I'm really tired right now so I'd rather do something
besides run around the yard with light sabers. How about we plan for
that tomorrow after dinner and watch a Star Wars movie right now?"
Sometimes that's okay; sometimes it's not okay - he needs to move when
he needs to move. So, we might determine that a trip to the playground
is in order so he can run and I can sit. Or it might be something else.
There's no one "if x then y" thing - it's not rules, it's principles.

Deb

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~Why are there books written? If there's not one way of doing it,
what are you all always talking about? Isn't this list to help people
learn a certain way of living with their children?~~

Yes, an idea, a philosophy, a lifestyle...which looks completely
different from family to family and person to person. So calling it
"cookie-cutter" is really incorrect.

When you take the idea of being kind for example, that will look
extremely different in different situations. Sometimes being kind is
stopping someone from hurting themselves. What is kindness to one
person, would be rude to another. So keeping the principles of respect
at the forefront, we respond to each and every situation differently.

It seems that with your son, every suggestion made has brought you
back to the idea of restricting him. We are trying to say there are
ways to creatively solve these issues, without stopping the play.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm going to make a few guesses. It
sounds to me like there are too many children over for this kind of
play at once. It sounds like the other parents are turning their
children loose and nobody is supervising the gun play. I think that's
a bad idea considering all the problems that keep surfacing with
people getting hurt. For one parent to be responsible for that many
children is probably stressful. I'm certainly ok with saying "sorry,
we already have company today" if too many kids come over.

Are they wearing safety goggles? Is there ANY kind of "code of
conduct" agreed upon by the children and adults involved to keep
everyone safe? If somebody was trying to harm any child near me and
ignored the obvious "stop now", then all game play ends right there
until we can come to an agreement that works for everyone.

Hurting people repeatedly when they are saying "no thanks" is not ok.
What are you doing to keep your younger child safe? He shouldn't have
to feel threatened in his own home. ARe you present during their play
so you can head things off at the pass so to speak?

I know that some children are especially challenging. I have a child
that is 6y.o. that challenges me to be a better person every day. I
also know that if that intense child doesn't feel they shine in your
eyes, it amps up the behavior and insecurity. They already feel
"different" than other people. They need to know they are celebrated
and adored for exactly who they are.

Instead of focusing on changing his behavior, think about ways to meet
him where he IS. He lacks certain tools. Rather than restricting him,
think about ways to help him get what he needs. I would have NO
hesitation approaching the other kids and asking them to come up with
a code of conduct with me, for play time. If they can't respect the
codes they help create, for safety, then they aren't welcome to play
at this moment in time. Giving everyone a safe space to play is important.

Create big, fun game days in your yard. Talk about the safety issues
ahead of time. We would point out the people NOT involved in a game
and say "please remember that Ciara and Jared have NOT agreed to be a
part of this game, it is not ok to shoot at them".

I just don't have problems with kids ignoring that. If I see a
potential problem arising, I can remind the child that doesn't want to
be shot, they may want to go inside. Or I might remind the shooters
that "so-and-so does NOT want to be shot..no thank you".

I'm pretty blunt with neighbor kids. They aren't being raised like my
children and I can't treat them the same way at times. We had two
neighbor kids at our house ALL the time in Pensacola. I would hide
certain foods when they came over because food was limited and
controlled at their house so it would disappear and my kids would be
upset. It wasn't in the budget to feed unlimited amounts to neighbor kids.

I'm pretty clear about boundaries when neighbor kids come over. I
might say "I really don't like ____________, we don't do that in our
house" and then give them an option that might work better.

It's pretty hard to have the same principles in effect at all times,
when those other children aren't used to operating that way. What
we've found, is that over time they figure out how we do things and
adapt quite well.

With safety issues, is it really that hard to help the kids come up
with some boundaries for everyone's benefit? Try to help them all get
what they need....nobody WANTS to get hurt.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Su Penn

Begin forwarded message:

> . So I have some experience I could draw on for that conversation.
> And I know some things like where to get porn that is produced
> consensually by sex-positive people who want to be involved in it,
> so I have that to draw on as well. I'm a resource for my kids on
> this subject, as on so many others.

This hit my in-box, and I realized this reads like, "I'm a resource
for my kids because I know where to get porn." Not exactly what I
meant to say! What I meant was, I'm a resource because I know things,
I have experience to draw on, I can talk about what is good about
porn and what is not-so-good, both about how it's produced and how
it's consumed. My own curiosity has led me in that direction in the
past, so I can affirm that the curiosity itself is not a bad thing. I
hope they would accept my guidance. I am working on my relationships
with my kids right now (they're only 6 and 3) in the hope that I can
remain someone they will trust, both to be in conversation with, and
maybe to believe me if I say (as I do sometimes now about certain
movies, for instance), "I'm not sure you'd be comfortable watching
that."

Su, who isn't contributing to the delinquency of minors quite so much
as it might have seemed at first glance.

Deb Lewis

***Come on. Why do you assume I am ignorant? I am a life long
homeschooler, mostly
an unschoooler. I have been immersed in the un/homeschooling world
since before my
kids were even school age. ***

Cookie cutter doesn't mean what you're insisting in means. It's
been used on unschooling lists for years to refer to the kind of
education public schooled kids get, the kind of treatment kids
receive in school where the individual needs of children are
ignored.

Cookie cutter means the same process over and over again with no
variance and no thought to the individual with the hope of achieving
the same result, a cookie cutter copy, every time.

You misused the word. No one assumed you were ignorant, we read
what you wrote.

Unschooling is a philosophy of treating children respectfully.
Personalities will be different in every home, resources will be
different, but the belief that children are born fully equipped to
live in the human world is the same. How individual home lives look
will vary. That's not "cookie cutter."

"Cookie cutter" was a pretty insulting thing to sling out there,
though you probably didn't know it was offensive. This list is
eyeball deep in folks who've thought about and rejected the cookie
cutter education and life for their children - really thoughtful,
mindful people who'll be happy to move on now and answer your
unschooling questions.

Maybe you meant an ideal unschooling life. That's within the reach
on anyone seeking it, and shouldn't be scoffed at. There are many
people living that ideal life, or near ideal, and many striving for
it, who know the benefits to kids of a thoughtful life.

Deb Lewis