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Karen,
I am just wondering why you hate America's Next Top Model?

Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Kidgie@...

In a message dated 7/23/2007 3:11:17 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

Why is it a positive to NOT have a tv?

I wonder about that too. I LOVE TV! I use it, I abuse it, lol, but I also
think critically and enjoy it very much. It's, to me, an important communication
device, and I'm grateful for it. I hate America's Top Model and many, many
more shows than I love, but I have found I can learn a lot even from the shows
I hate...

But I admit to not understanding the "Kill Your TV" attitude...Maybe we can
talk a bit about that stuff here?

Karen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/2007 3:55:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
airokat@... writes:

Karen,
I am just wondering why you hate America's Next Top Model?

Kathryn


I'll be totally honest, k?

I have an ED that is in remission, and the show triggers me. I worry that my
lovely 15 year old might see herself as needing to be thinner, see that as
the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind of stuff. I do of course, "let her" and we
have always talked about this stuff openly. It's a personal bias I have due
to my own eating disorder, that's all! :)

Karen



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Ren Allen

~~I worry that my lovely 15 year old might see herself as needing to
be thinner, see that as the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind of stuff.~~

I believe the way young girls see themselves has more to do with their
mothers self-image than anything. It's good you're aware of your own
issue. Keep on being strong for her because the way you see yourself
and other women will affect her more than any show.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/23/2007 4:42:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

ME: ~~I worry that my lovely 15 year old might see herself as needing to
be thinner, see that as the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind of stuff.~~

REN: I believe the way young girls see themselves has more to do with their
mothers self-image than anything. It's good you're aware of your own
issue. Keep on being strong for her because the way you see yourself
and other women will affect her more than any show.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Yes, I agree with you! Thank you, Ren!

I worry about desensitizing of our kids, all that stuff, but yes, that's
true, pretty much I feel. We mothers (parents!) have a serious job...and I try
to be open about my recovery and the effects and affects ;) It's tough. On July
27, I will have 7 inactive years :) :) :) And I'm not shy about celebrating
that! I am imperfect, I am human, and I'm ok. (lol, "I'm good enough, I'm
smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me!" lol...good ole Jack Handy) And
I've tried to promote that, though of course I still have battles. I try to
keep them on the inside, but if they become hard to cope with, they do tend to
seep out. I try, I'm honest, I love freely. I figure that's the best way to
cope with this. My mother was always insecure. No ED at all, but that
insecurity, and knowing who she looked to as role models (Mary Tyler Moore, a very,
very slender woman, for one), I think really did get me in some ways. But I'd
be lying to say that media did NOT do the same. I still am unsure of the
degree of that however - it's all a-jumble now in many ways. I was "odd" as it
didn't appear until after my first 3 kids came and I was an adult.

Anyway, enough babble! thanks for the kind words, Ren. I am doing all I can
to just go with the flow, think and speak critically, and stay healthy. I have
too much going on not to! and..too much self respect :)

Karen





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Mary King

My 13 year old daughter yells at the tv both during top model and miss
america/universe shows that the women need to gain weight because their
ribs are showing and that is just sick. It is nice to have her know
that she is fine just the way she is and that they are the ones that
need help. Mary


> ME: ~~I worry that my lovely 15 year old might see herself as
needing to
> be thinner, see that as the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind of
stuff.~~
>
> REN: I believe the way young girls see themselves has more to do
with their
> mothers self-image than anything. It's good you're aware of your own
> issue.

Rue Kream

>>the women need to gain weight because their ribs are showing and that
is just sick. It is nice to have her know that she is fine just the way
she is and that they are the ones that need help.

I'd like to comment on the idea that a woman's ribs showing is 'just
sick'.

I've been thin all my life. There's never been a time my ribs *didn't*
show, even during pregnancy to the best of my recollection. I've heard
comments, positive and negative, about it all my life. People - family,
friends, and strangers - feel quite comfortable commenting on my size,
asking my weight, and giving their (unsolicited) opinions on it. Just
recently at a party someone I had never met before announced (with a
snigger) to a group that I was built like a carrot stick. Lovely.

I don't want to defend modeling (or that show, which I've never seen),
or our culture's always-transient model of beauty. I'd just like to say
that just as it's perfectly normal for some people to develop more body
fat, it's perfectly normally for some people to develop less. The
problem, imo, is the idea that there is any right way for all our
incredibly diverse bodies to look.

~Rue, who's ribs show quite clearly, and who often bumps into things
with her goddamn bony hipbone.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~Rue, who's ribs show quite clearly, and who often bumps into things
with her goddamn bony hipbone.~~

You too? I really thought that by age 38 I'd have this
walking-through-doors thing down! Sheesh. I am known to bump by hip or
elbow frequently. I feel like I have some kind of spatial issues.:)

I work with a girl that is extremely thin. P could easily be a girl
you'd think starves herself. She doesn't. She eats healthy and stays
active and she's really, really tiny. We're about the same height
(5'8") but she looks to be several inches smaller than I. People want
to fuss about her weight, it's annoying.

Some people ARE very thin naturally. There have been problems in the
modeling world and still are, but several of the major runway
producers are placing minimum weight restrictions on the girls now so
they can't be unhealthily underweight. I think Paris France was one of
the first in the industry to step it up.

Self image doesn't come from the media, though we can be influenced by
it just like any other societal message. Being happy with ourselves
is the most affirming message we can send our children of either
gender. Being perfectly comfortable and supportive of our children, no
matter their size, shape or sexual orientation is one of the most
powerful ways to help them continue being exactly who-they-are and
grow up feeling celebrated.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

wisdomalways5

>
> > ME: ~~I worry that my lovely 15 year old might see herself as
> needing to
> > be thinner, see that as the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind
of
> stuff.~~
> >
> > REN: I believe the way young girls see themselves has more to
do
> with their
> > mothers self-image than anything. It's good you're aware of
your own
> > issue.
>


I have hear this same thing a time or two that girls take on the
view of their bodies from their moms more than anything. If mom is
constantly unhappy then they learn to be unhappy as well, if mom
find fault with her body then she will too.

One funny thing to note is that my 4 yr old thinks her 2 yr old
sisters belly button is "cuter" than hers. I have no idea where this
came from excpet that one is a complete innie and the other a sort
of outie. I never considered belly buttons as cute or not cute.
Maybe that is why belly button ring came into play for the ones who
needed a cuter one. lol. I do not know

[email protected]

I watch Top Model with my daughters and we like the show. We all understand that the modeling industry prefers thin women but the part we seem to like is the artistic nature of the finished photos. A lot of the girls on that show are not particularly attractive at all, but the finished photos are very often quite beautiful, and some of the girls are very good at invoking different moods and looking completely different from photo to photo. Other girls cannot do it, and despite their beauty, they look the same in every photo. There is actually more to modeling than getting your picture taken, not that I am a huge fan of the industry. But the modeling industry is just one aspect of our culture that potentially degrades women. One thing no one has mentioned is the emphasis on height. We complain about that more than the thinness. All the women are really tall by our standards, no short gals.

Some time ago (when my girls were toddlers) I noticed that self-deprecating remarks about one's body seems to be a kind of female bonding ritual. I refused to participate and I do believe it has made a difference in my girls' self-image.

Kathryn

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "wisdomalways5" <wisdom1133@...>
>
> > ME: ~~I worry that my lovely 15 year old might see herself as
> needing to
> > be thinner, see that as the "ideal" for womanhood, that kind
of
> stuff.~~
> >
> > REN: I believe the way young girls see themselves has more to
do
> with their
> > mothers self-image than anything. It's good you're aware of
your own
> > issue.
>

I have hear this same thing a time or two that girls take on the
view of their bodies from their moms more than anything. If mom is
constantly unhappy then they learn to be unhappy as well, if mom
find fault with her body then she will too.

One funny thing to note is that my 4 yr old thinks her 2 yr old
sisters belly button is "cuter" than hers. I have no idea where this
came from excpet that one is a complete innie and the other a sort
of outie. I never considered belly buttons as cute or not cute.
Maybe that is why belly button ring came into play for the ones who
needed a cuter one. lol. I do not know




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

--- In [email protected], Kidgie@... wrote:
>>
> I have an ED that is in remission, and the show triggers me.

I usually get abreviations, but this one threw me...I'm used to it
meaning "erectile dysfunction"! Obviously I have too many guy
friends ;)

---Meredith

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/24/2007 10:07:48 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
airokat@... writes:

Some time ago (when my girls were toddlers) I noticed that self-deprecating
remarks about one's body seems to be a kind of female bonding ritual. I
refused to participate and I do believe it has made a difference in my girls'
self-image.



Kathryn, yes! I see that too, and I did participate in that. We can't be
proud, if we are, we are selfish, self centered females. Horrible! (and some of
the biggest Bull**** on earth, I might add!!) But yes, I think that is a VERY
good thing to realize. I have made serious changes over the years. I do,
still, get "caught" saying things about my fatness level, but I rebound quickly
now. And I don't do that with any of my friends I have in person and try not
to also on the web boards I post on.

I still am unsure of the full impact my mother's behavior and ideas had on
me. I know I have always been larger than she. Her wedding dress was too small
for me when I was 10 - we are simply built VERY differently. But I remember
how upsetting that was way back then! She never commented to me about it, not
that I remember, but I remember how it affected me. The biggest things I
remember really getting to me, were early development and the attention it
brought both in school and from the parents of friends of mine (I was to be
avoided, I was "fast" since I had large breasts at 11, the boys assumed stuff, long,
horrid stories of junk and other things), my friends who were thinner and
guess what - all of my close friends wound up with EDs of one form or another.
There is just so much that got me to bulimarexia. I'm hesitant to say it was
mainly my mom, because it just doesn't fit correctly into my life puzzle...

Lots to think about...

Karen



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/24/2007 10:43:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
meredith@... writes:

--- In [email protected], Kidgie@... wrote:
>>
> I have an ED that is in remission, and the show triggers me.

I usually get abreviations, but this one threw me...I'm used to it
meaning "erectile dysfunction"! Obviously I have too many guy
friends ;)

---Meredith


LMAO!!!!! Oh my...lololol...that's is too funny, considering the show, too!
Thanks, M, that cracked me up. Yeah, it's ED for Eating Disorder, lol...I just
saw a commercial using "ED" for Erectile Dysfunction and that made me
giggle, considering, but now you said it too, and it's making me literally,
"LOL"!!!

Karen :)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wisdomalways5

--- In [email protected], Kidgie@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 7/24/2007 10:43:46 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> meredith@... writes:
>
> --- In [email protected], Kidgie@ wrote:
> >>
> > I have an ED that is in remission, and the show triggers me.
>
> I usually get abreviations, but this one threw me...I'm used to
it
> meaning "erectile dysfunction"! Obviously I have too many guy
> friends ;)
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
> LMAO!!!!! Oh my...lololol...that's is too funny, considering the
show, too!
> Thanks, M, that cracked me up. Yeah, it's ED for Eating Disorder,
lol...I just
> saw a commercial using "ED" for Erectile Dysfunction and that
made me
> giggle, considering, but now you said it too, and it's making me
literally,
> "LOL"!!!
>
> Karen :)
>

I had to think about what ED meant to when I first read it. LOL
then figured since it was talking about top model it had to be
eating disorder. JulieH

Mary King

>their ribs are showing and that is just sick.

Please allow me to correct myself. What I meant to say was in my
daughters opinion she thinks that the models look like they are sick. I
realized when i read my own statement that i worded it completely
wrong. Mary

Susan

> ~~Rue, who's ribs show quite clearly, and who often bumps into things
> with her goddamn bony hipbone.~~
>
> You too? I really thought that by age 38 I'd have this
> walking-through-doors thing down! Sheesh. I am known to bump by hip or
> elbow frequently. I feel like I have some kind of spatial issues.:)
>
> I work with a girl that is extremely thin. P could easily be a girl
> you'd think starves herself. She doesn't. She eats healthy and stays
> active and she's really, really tiny.

I've known several people who are naturally very thin. My friend Cheri
used to model. She's tall but her frame is very slender. She doesn't
diet or exercise like crazy. It's just the way her body is built.

> People want to fuss about her weight, it's annoying.

This reminds me of an experience I had in highschool that has stuck
with me all this time. One day I walked into the girl's restroom to
find one of the most popular (and thinest) girls in school crying at
the sink. I was really startled so I asked her what was wrong and
through big crocodile tears she related how she ate and ate and tried
to gain weight but she couldn't and she was tired of being so skinny
and she had to shop in the junior section rather than the women's,
etc. She was very upset!

I was *stunned* because she'd always seemed so cool and collected and
appeared to have the perfect life. I had no idea! All that time I'd
thought she must have practically starved herself to death to get that
figure - and I guess people thinking this added to the pain she was
carrying. I have no idea why she felt okay sharing all of that with me
since we weren't friends, but I'm glad I was able to be there to
listen to her and provide empathy. That has stuck with me and helped
me challenge my assumptions in similar situations.

On the flip side, some people don't arrive at a thin frame naturally
through genetics but feel that they should look that way nonetheless.
I read an article about weight and body image and one particular
interview with a model made me so sad - she said she ate *one*
cornflake for breakfast. Just one! I'm glad some runways have started
taking positive initiatives to combat this. It's a good step.

~ Susan