Genevieve

Hi, I've never written in before, I have 4 kids, a 4 month DS, 22
month DS, 3 YO DD, and an almost 11 YO DD. I just spent a week with
my mom and this is really bothering me though...What do you say to
people, who, like my mother, try to guilt you into making your
children wear clothes at all times becasue "I'm not teaching them to
be a part of society in a normal way" She actually beleives I am
going to be making their lives harder by not making them conform to
what she believes is "normal" I just can't see making my 3 and 2 year
old wear clothes all the time when we live on a 60 acre farm in the
middle of nowhere and they love being so free and it's so cute to see
them just playing with no inhibitions or self consciousness about
their bodies. My 10 YO DD used to be this way until she spent some
time with my mom about a year ago. I don't know how to address it
with my mom, she's very stubborn and obviously I have my own issues
with needing approval from my upbrining with her. When she was my mom
though she let my sister and I run around skyclad until we were
preteens, then all of a sudden it became "shameful" (again, on a
large farm in the middle of nowhere, Ohio) Sorry for rambling, I'm
just trying to make sense of my conflicted emotions of believing that
it's OK and now feeling guilty because of my mom's latest campaign to
get me to dress them all the time. She even told me that DCF could
get involved if I let them be naked whenever they want which is
almost all the time.
thanks for any input.
-Gen in Florida

[email protected]

What it boils down to is that these are *my* children, NOT my mother's.

She had the opportunity to make her own choices on how to rear me and
my brother (and if she relied on and/or accepted her own mother's---or
anyone else's---interference, that was her choice and is not *my*
problem). It's now my turn, and I don't need or want her interference.
She is to keep her opinions to herself. And if she cannot do this, I
will arrange my family's schedules so that she will not have the
opportunity.

My mother may choose to play by *my* rules now or not play at all.

I cannot tell you how clear I've had to be, but it's easier to *be* a
parent when you don't have to worry about your own parent's butting in.

If she's threatening to call DCF, I'm afraid that I would have to cut
off *all* communication with her immediately.

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Genevieve <katgrl705@...>

Hi, I've never written in before, I have 4 kids, a 4 month DS, 22
month DS, 3 YO DD, and an almost 11 YO DD. I just spent a week with
my mom and this is really bothering me though...What do you say to
people, who, like my mother, try to guilt you into making your
children wear clothes at all times becasue "I'm not teaching them to
be a part of society in a normal way" She actually beleives I am
going to be making their lives harder by not making them conform to
what she believes is "normal" I just can't see making my 3 and 2 year
old wear clothes all the time when we live on a 60 acre farm in the
middle of nowhere and they love being so free and it's so cute to see
them just playing with no inhibitions or self consciousness about
their bodies. My 10 YO DD used to be this way until she spent some
time with my mom about a year ago. I don't know how to address it
with my mom, she's very stubborn and obviously I have my own issues
with needing approval from my upbrining with her. When she was my mom
though she let my sister and I run around skyclad until we were
preteens, then all of a sudden it became "shameful" (again, on a
large farm in the middle of nowhere, Ohio) Sorry for rambling, I'm
just trying to make sense of my conflicted emotions of believing that
it's OK and now feeling guilty because of my mom's latest campaign to
get me to dress them all the time. She even told me that DCF could
get involved if I let them be naked whenever they want which is
almost all the time.
thanks for any input.
-Gen in Florida
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mauratracy

Hi Gen. I'm no expert from an unschooling point of view, but I've dealt with this kind of
thing from both my parents. The one thing that kind of shuts my dad up is something
along these lines: "Dad, it is OUR job to raise OUR children in the way WE determine to be
best. To achieve that we gather wisdom from various sources, you included, and then WE
make OUR decisions of what's best for our family. It would be iresponsible of us to just do
what one person tells me to do. My husband and I make these desisions together, and
this is something we've decided is OK. Please don't badger me or try to make me feel
guilty, it makes out time with you very unpleasant."

And I do know that from an unschooling perspective we aren't deciding what's best for our
children; they are deciding that for themselves. But we did decide to give them that
freedom, so we have made that "parenting" decision, and, in my opinion, we need not
open that whole can of worms....of them deciding for themselves, etc..

Oh, and I agree with Kelly about the threat of DCS (CPS). I might ask if that was a threat,
and explain that if there was any threat of that I would not feel safe spending time with
them. My guess is that she wasn't threatening to call, but rather was warning that
someone else might....which is silly, I think, given your situation.

Just my two cents.....for what it's worth.

Maura

--- In [email protected], "Genevieve" <katgrl705@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I've never written in before, I have 4 kids, a 4 month DS, 22
> month DS, 3 YO DD, and an almost 11 YO DD. I just spent a week with
> my mom and this is really bothering me though...What do you say to
> people, who, like my mother, try to guilt you into making your
> children wear clothes at all times becasue "I'm not teaching them to
> be a part of society in a normal way" She actually beleives I am
> going to be making their lives harder by not making them conform to
> what she believes is "normal"

halfshadow1

I don't post much here but i feel like saying that i agree with you
and have been thru the same issue with my dad and other family members
who visit. My son has always been naked in the house and outside. I
have tried to get clothes on him when he went out but since he was in
the backyard(we have 1/3 acrea and only was in the front for short
periods of time. I worried about what some creep might see or think.
Needless to say the sh*t hit the fan friday the 13th. There was two
d.c.f workers and a cop at my door! Someone reported a 5 yo. running
around naked outside. The cop did tell me that is was against the law.
A friend told me the age is 3...after that it's illegal. I don't know
for sure because i can't find the child nudity law for florida on the
state website and if someone could help me....thanks.
I was very shaken up, i feel like my parenting is *tarnished*
--- In [email protected], "Genevieve" <katgrl705@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, I've never written in before, I have 4 kids, a 4 month DS, 22
> month DS, 3 YO DD, and an almost 11 YO DD. I just spent a week with
> my mom and this is really bothering me though...What do you say to
> people, who, like my mother, try to guilt you into making your
> children wear clothes at all times becasue "I'm not teaching them to
> be a part of society in a normal way" She actually beleives I am
> going to be making their lives harder by not making them conform to
> what she believes is "normal" I just can't see making my 3 and 2 year
> old wear clothes all the time when we live on a 60 acre farm in the
> middle of nowhere and they love being so free and it's so cute to see
> them just playing with no inhibitions or self consciousness about
> their bodies. My 10 YO DD used to be this way until she spent some
> time with my mom about a year ago. I don't know how to address it
> with my mom, she's very stubborn and obviously I have my own issues
> with needing approval from my upbrining with her. When she was my mom
> though she let my sister and I run around skyclad until we were
> preteens, then all of a sudden it became "shameful" (again, on a
> large farm in the middle of nowhere, Ohio) Sorry for rambling, I'm
> just trying to make sense of my conflicted emotions of believing that
> it's OK and now feeling guilty because of my mom's latest campaign to
> get me to dress them all the time. She even told me that DCF could
> get involved if I let them be naked whenever they want which is
> almost all the time.
> thanks for any input.
> -Gen in Florida
>

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "halfshadow1"
<halfshadow1@...> wrote:
>> Needless to say the sh*t hit the fan friday the 13th. There was two
> d.c.f workers and a cop at my door! Someone reported a 5 yo. running
> around naked outside.

Heather, I didn't think about this before, but is it possible for you
to put up a privacy fence of some kind that encloses the pool and the
space between the pool and house? I seem to remember you saying that
he often runs from the house to the pool naked - a fence would give
you a clear boundary for the purpose not only of keeping neighbors
noses out of your business but explaing to Lukas *where* its okay and
not okay to be bare-bottomed.

I haven't checked yet, but its possible the law may be written around
a phrase like "community standards" in which case age is less relevant
than the fact that someone complained. That was the impression I had
when the police got called on Mo and freinds - the problem wasn't the
nudity, it was that someone was offended by it. Its hard to fight that
kind of bs.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...>
wrote:
>> I haven't checked yet, but its possible the law may be written
around
> a phrase like "community standards" in which case age is less
relevant
> than the fact that someone complained.

Yes, that looks to be the case. A quick glance through the FL laws
brought me this:

****************
800.03 Exposure of sexual organs.

It is unlawful to expose or exhibit one's sexual organs in public or
on the private premises of another, or so near thereto as to be seen
from such private premises, in a vulgar or indecent manner, or to be
naked in public except in any place provided or set apart for that
purpose. Violation of this section is a misdemeanor of the first
degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. A
mother's breastfeeding of her baby does not under any circumstance
violate this section.
********************

Which doesn't say anything about age, but does state "so near...as
to be seen". There's also a note that the "disorderly conduct"
portion of the law is often applied in nudity cases where its
possible to rule out "vulger or indecent" intent:

********************
877.03 Breach of the peace; disorderly conduct.

Whoever commits such acts as are of a nature to corrupt the public
morals, or outrage the sense of public decency, or affect the peace
and quiet of persons who may witness them, or engages in brawling or
fighting, or engages in such conduct as to constitute a breach of
the peace or disorderly conduct, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of
the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s.
775.083.
********************

The key words would be "outrage the sense of public decency", with a
note that courts are ruling on the basis of complaints, not police
discretion.

Here's the link:
http://www.nac.oshkosh.net/StatesFrames/State_Laws_Frames/Florida_Law
s/florida_laws.html

So its not so much the nudity as the prudishness of the neighbors.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)