pastors_online

Thanks, Meredith for your reply. I appreciate your feedback/thoughts.

I am sorting things out.......right now gathering a lot of info
and thinking about things.

I no longer really give myself permission to do what I've mainly
been doing to relax.......which was, have a few beers and
watch movies. Others around me have moral objections to the
alchohol (and movies). I've been putting a guilt trip on myself.
I've added exercise and other activities.

I simply am not as active as some people, partly due to conditions
and partly to age......and so when my son is around me, we
tend to not run around as much as most people I know.

But then, most people I know also do not spend very much time
with their children as people......some don't ask what their
child wants to do, anyway....(that depends).......and many people
I know place a much higher priority (maybe how they've grown
up, maybe just a knee jerk reaction, whatever...) on having a
super clean home than on spending much time with their children.

I was surprised to see parents who just expect their children
to jump at their every command (almost at a whim) and others
who just let their children play and never interact with them....

OK, I'm not really saying right or wrong here, but just because
I'm in a minority doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

I'm willing to take him to some activities......my preference,
when he was younger, was to go to places.....we went to
playgrounds, parks, bookstores, etc and tried some sports
teams, etc.

We do a lot of play dates, and I have his friends over a LOT.

We go to the public libraries a lot.

You're right, right now he is still "unwinding" from school.

As much as I DO want to consider his happiness and needs, and I
am willing to re think how I think, too......I also have to
think about my limitations and even needs because no one else
will.....

What I see here is that I have a lot of guilt underlying my
motives and making me unhappy, so I think it will help to
put some of that aside, as well as others' expectations, and
just think calmly about what is best for my son, and also,
what is best for me.......

I'm not at a place where I can just only think about what my
son needs, and "forget about" how I feel, or my limits......that
won't work very long with me, and it backfires. There may be
some moms/parents who actually can do that.

I find there is a difference between where I ought to be, where
I'd like to be, and where I'm actually at in the persent. It
is a process.
---------------

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "pastors_online"
> <pastors_online@> wrote:
> >> He doesn't like to go most places with me so I end up feeling
very
> > trapped. I can leave him alone for some time now as he
> > is older but I have reservations about doing that. He isn't
> > usually interested in taking little trips or going places although
> > in the summer he will go with me at times to a lake.
>
> Ray's been out of school for almost 9 months now (!) and while his
> interests have started to expand beyond computer games he still
> doesn't like to go anywhere that could be seen as a "field trip".
> That's awkward for me, since it leaves me sort of floundering for
> (cheap to free) ideas, but we, as a family, have found some other
> ways for him to have outings that he enjoys. Solutions of this kind
> are going to be unique to families, to some extent, but its worth
> considering what kinds of resources you may be able to call on,
> including human resources.
>
> > I think most of the pressure I feel is self generated....he
> > is pretty happy left alone alot and likes to do video games
> > but I try to interest him in other things to get some balance.
>
> Balance isn't necessarily something he needs. That may be a
> surprising statement, but this idea of "the well rounded child" is
> just an idea. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the
> real needs of real individual kids. If he *needed* to be doing a
> dozen different things, he'd be asking for that in some way.
>
> Its really hard to say how things would look if he wasn't in school
> because there's so much of his thinking and behavior tied up in
> school right now. When he's home he's home From School. When he's
on
> vacation, its From School. So school and his feelings about school
> and reactions to school are coloring everything he does.
>
> > However, I seem to need a LOT of time alone, and he and I
> > don't like to do the same things (which isn't wrong or that
> > unusual but it makes it harder).
>
> It does make it harder - how hard are you willing to work for the
> sake of your relationship with your son? That's not meant to be
> either rhetorical or snarky, its something to think about really
> hard. There's a big cultural expectation that our primary job as
> parents is to prepare kids for life - and their happiness will,
> presumably take care of itself along the way. Unschooling comes
from
> the perspective that our job is to build a partnership with our
> kids - and part of that is helping our partners be happy in their
> lives right now. That's a pretty big shift in expectations, and
> takes a lot of internal work on the part of the parents.
>
> I don't share a lot of interests with my stepson, so I have to work
> harder to connect with him, to find out about him, to understand
his
> likes and dislikes and passions. He's still pretty baffling to me
> sometimes, and I still worry that I'm not really doing "enough".
Its
> a process.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

diana jenner

On 7/11/07, pastors_online <pastors_online@...> wrote:
>
> As much as I DO want to consider his happiness and needs, and I
> am willing to re think how I think, too......I also have to
> think about my limitations and even needs because no one else
> will.....
>
> What I see here is that I have a lot of guilt underlying my
> motives and making me unhappy, so I think it will help to
> put some of that aside, as well as others' expectations, and
> just think calmly about what is best for my son, and also,
> what is best for me.......
>
> I'm not at a place where I can just only think about what my
> son needs, and "forget about" how I feel, or my limits......that
> won't work very long with me, and it backfires. There may be
> some moms/parents who actually can do that.
> .
>

Your needs and his needs are not mutually exclusive. What is best to focus
on here is what is best for *US* - our team, our family. Find the
win/win/win solutions. Anytime us vs him/them thinking sneaks into my
thoughts, I know I have to switch my focus. I find that I struggle most with
my son when I'm focusing too much on *my* stuff (baggage, guilt, needs, etc)
and not nearly enough on *our* present moment right here. When my
perspective shifts to us and finding a way to meet OUR needs, it clicks. My
needs, when intense, are generally well received, as I have received his
intense needs when necessary.
My new favorite mantra: win/win/win/win/win (even funnier if you have steve
carrell in your head saying it!)
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], "diana jenner"
<hahamommy@...>
> > .
> >
>
> Your needs and his needs are not mutually exclusive. What is best to
focus
> on here is what is best for *US* - our team, our family. Find the
> win/win/win solutions.
> My new favorite mantra: win/win/win/win/win


AWESOME DIANA,

That is totally what I find with a really large family. We make
decisions together based on win win nine times over. Everyone here is
for us. Does that mean what each of us get our perfect senario every
time.. NA but close, and that makes it perfect knowing that everyone
is getting what they need.

Kathleen

Meredith

--- In [email protected], "Kathleen Gehrke"
<gehrkes@...> wrote:
>and that makes it perfect knowing that everyone
> is getting what they need.
>

I've found it helpful, personally, when different family memebers have
needs that are/seem to be in conflict, to shift my thinking from
wanting everyone's needs to be *met* to thinking about everyone's
needs being *important*. It isn't necessary to find a perfect solution
every time, but it helps a whole heck of a lot for every family member
to feel valued every time.

---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)

Ren Allen

~~It isn't necessary to find a perfect solution
every time, but it helps a whole heck of a lot for every family member
to feel valued every time.~~

I love this Meredith.

I get frustrated with the idea that everyone's needs can be met all
the time, because it just doesn't work that way in a large family.
Just this morning, both Jalen and Sierra needed my full attention at
the same time. I couldn't possibly meet the need right in that moment,
but I let Jalen know that Sierra was in the middle of telling me
something very important to her and I would be right over.

I was able to give him my full attention shortly thereafter. But he
really didn't want to wait. Neither of them wanted to wait. I can't
hear two people talking at me at the same time...just doesn't work.

SO, rather than worry about meeting the need right in that moment, I
CAN let them know that I care and their needs matter. That was an easy
situation!

I agree that making the need important and creatively seeking mutally
agreeable solutions works. I also have no guilt when a need can't be
met in the moment, because that's part of coming up against real life
challenges. The thing that matters most to me, is that everyone feels
heard, valued and needed. They know we will all work together to find
solutions.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Robert Saxon

To add to this, Elissa (dd2) is VERY intense. She is the sort who, when
angry, upset, etc., will shut down and avoid contact. This in conjunction
with her high-needs state, lets us know that she is VERY afraid of being
rejected. She can feel rejected in those very situations where Seana (DW)
has to meet the needs of both her and Genevieve (dd1).

Seana has been working with her the past several months to let her know
that, whatever the situation is, that she still loves her, is not going
anywhere, and that she'll talk with her in a minute. I've seen Elissa's
actions change, from running away from Seana into the other room when mad to
staying and being there with Seana, even though she's angry. She's also not
as upset as she used to get.

Now for me to get there. She still runs from me when she's mad, esp. at me.

--Rob


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pastors_online

Very perceptive. Thank you.

"Oceanwaves"
---------

--- In [email protected], "Robert Saxon"
<TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>
> To add to this, Elissa (dd2) is VERY intense. She is the sort who,
when
> angry, upset, etc., will shut down and avoid contact. This in
conjunction
> with her high-needs state, lets us know that she is VERY afraid of
being
> rejected. She can feel rejected in those very situations where
Seana (DW)
> has to meet the needs of both her and Genevieve (dd1).
>
> Seana has been working with her the past several months to let her
know
> that, whatever the situation is, that she still loves her, is not
going
> anywhere, and that she'll talk with her in a minute. I've seen
Elissa's
> actions change, from running away from Seana into the other room
when mad to
> staying and being there with Seana, even though she's angry. She's
also not
> as upset as she used to get.
>
> Now for me to get there. She still runs from me when she's mad,
esp. at me.
>
> --Rob
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

pastors_online

--- In [email protected], "pastors_online"
<pastors_online@...> wrote:
>---------------------------
> Thanks to everyone for their responses!!!!

The reason this orignal post said "not sent" was because I had
decided not to send it to the list as it was veering off into personal
topics.....so I thought I had saved it to my email for later
consideration, but I had sent it to the list, without realizing it.

I honestly DO try to do win/win situations.....I am finding
it difficult (not anyone's "fault") that it ends up that I
don't do things I need to do for myself because I don't want to
leave my son alone at home......also I don't think hours of
video games nonstop is healthy for him.......he probably would
get over that in time........??

I may need to start out with some structure/boundaries and
consistently enforce that, but, try to be aware/attentive of
everyone's needs as much as possible.

When I try to just let it go, there are times it works out
but other times I just can't handle it in my present state.

I was just listening to a tv show from my particular belief
system......the guests said they had a passive child and a
"strong willed" child, and the passive one would go along fine
until he did something weird, then they said, he just needed
a spanking and he was fine. They said "he needed to know he
was loved"

I thought that was weird. You need to be spanked to know
you are loved??????????? I can understand needing some help
with boundaries, and "discipline" (I don't like that word).....
why does it have to be spanking?

OK, I know that people on this list are not going to agree
either with spanking.

I have the heart of an unschooler but I have to admit I just
have some limitations. I tried to do attachment parenting for
the most part when he was young.....

Thanks for all the responses. I'm learning and growing!
I appreciate everyone here, and I think it helps to learn to
think differently.......I feel like my heart is with unschooling
but I'm not quite all there yet.....

"Oceanwaves" (online name I use)
---------------------

Danielle Conger

Kendrah Nilsestuen wrote:
>
> <<It isn't necessary to find a perfect solution every time, but it
> helps a whole heck of a lot for every family member to feel valued
> every time.>>
>
> This is so wonderfully put. I read posts all the time that talk about
> finding a win/win situation for everyone. I wonder with two kids of
> my own how that can possibly be done. Obviously, if both want two
> different things somebody isn't wining. Your explanation made it so
> clear that I feel silly for not thinking of it this way sooner.
>

I love what Meredith wrote and think it's an important piece of the
puzzle, but I feel sad when I hear someone thinking that win/ win
solutions aren't possible and find myself wanting to take the time to
try to articulate how the process works in our family. I have three
kiddos very close in age (9, 8 and 7), and I remember feeling early on
that same sense of disbelief and certainty that folks living win/wins
successfully must not have multiple children.

----"Obviously, if both want two different things somebody isn't
wining."----

I think that's the part that prompted me to jump in.

Win/ win problem solving, or problem solving for common preference *is*
about making sure that everyone feels valued every time. Everyone's
needs in every moment are important enough to be listened to,
considered, and brainstormed about meeting. During this *process* itself
of voicing, listening, considering, brainstorming what often happens is
that the two (or three or four...) needs that were *seemingly* in
conflict in the beginning, come round to actually not being so directly
conflicting, or they give way to an alternate option that is genuinely
preferable but just wasn't visible as long as the first two options
remained in opposition.

The *process* itself of working towards the win/win solution is, in my
experience, the important thing and where both the valuing and the
cooperation happen. By engaging in the process itself, people become
successful problem-solvers. By engaging in the process, "winning" is no
longer the goal.

A practical example off the top of my head...

My two girls share a bedroom, and while most of the time it works great,
there are moments where it generates conflict because they are needing
very different things in the same space. I can recall one time where Em
was needing quiet, private space in her room while Jules was needing a
place to build with her Polly Pockets (or maybe Bratz?). They couldn't
agree and came to me for help finding a solution. I listened to both
perspectives, asked some questions to expand upon what they were wanting
to do and understand more of the details. We then talked about Em maybe
taking private space in my room, but that didn't seem preferable to her.
What about Jules playing in a different space, but no, not preferable
either--the conflict really was about the space in that moment and who
would get it. What about Em taking some private time in a nice tub with
lavender bubbles and some candles? Yep, that worked with the vision of
private space that Em was looking for, so she agreed to this solution,
giving Jules the use of the bedroom.

But...the moment Em agreed that the tub was, indeed, a preferable
solution, the conflict itself melted away and instead of either of them
wanting to use the bedroom, they decided that what they both really
wanted to do was to play Bratz (or Pollys) in the tub together without
candles and off they went.

What we've found over and over again in moments like these is that
conflict really does give way to common preference or win/ win just by
engaging in the *process* itself.

Of course there are times the process is clumsy and frustrating and
maybe feels like there will never be a solution. And there are times, as
well, where stop-gap solutions have been made because of practical
time-constraints, but we always come back to the issue and problem solve
successfully for a next time. I'm not saying the process is always
perfect. But, we have found over the years that the more we do it, the
more often it works, the more it becomes second-nature, and the more
people *trust* that their needs will, indeed, be met. It's that trust, I
think, that opens people up to considering alternative solutions. When
folks don't trust that their needs will be met, then they dig in their
heals and fight to hold onto their little piece of the pie. The more
experiences people have of their needs being valued and honored and met,
the more willing they are to agree that meeting the need at 2:00 will
work just as well as meeting the need at 1:30 because they can trust
that it *will* be met even if it's deferred for a little bit.

That temporal thing hangs people up a lot when considering the idea of
win/ win problem solving--how can someone meet multiple needs *in the
same moment*?

Well, yeah, of course there will be solutions that aren't *in the same
moment* because none of us (as far as I know *g*) has figured out how to
be in multiple places at one time. But the process and the trust in the
outcome are what, in my experience, have made the *in the same moment*
issue really a non-factor most of the time. Well, that, and
maturity--just the developmental ability to wait--has been hugely
important as well. My kids understand that sometimes win/ win solutions
are consecutive rather than simultaneous and that factors into our
solutions.

So, I guess this was all a long-winded way of saying that
problem-solving for win/ wins *is* possible and really does become
easier with patience and practice and trust.


--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (7)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

pastors_online

Thanks. Good practical example! I think this is important to avoid
the military, hierarchical type of "just bark an order and everyone
is suposed to JUMP now" attitude.

Oceanwaves
---------------
(snipped for brevity)

--- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@...> wrote:
>
> Kendrah Nilsestuen wrote:
> >
> > <<It isn't necessary to find a perfect solution every time, but it
> > helps a whole heck of a lot for every family member to feel valued
> > every time.>>
> >
> > This is so wonderfully put. I read posts all the time that talk
about
> > finding a win/win situation for everyone. I wonder with two kids
of
> > my own how that can possibly be done. Obviously, if both want two
> > different things somebody isn't wining. Your explanation made it
so
> > clear that I feel silly for not thinking of it this way sooner.
> >
>
> I love what Meredith wrote and think it's an important piece of the
> puzzle, but I feel sad when I hear someone thinking that win/ win
> solutions aren't possible and find myself wanting to take the time
to
> try to articulate how the process works in our family. I have three
> kiddos very close in age (9, 8 and 7), and I remember feeling early
on
> that same sense of disbelief and certainty that folks living
win/wins
> successfully must not have multiple children.
>
>

Robert Saxon

Bravo, Danielle!

To put a little different spin on it...

My skill right now at facilitating win/win situations is not as good as it
will be in six months. I'm getting better. So even though I may not be
able to get to a win/win in a lot of situations, I'm getting better at it.
I keep striving for that goal, and I keep getting closer and closer.

--Rob Saxon


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Robert Saxon wrote:
>
> My skill right now at facilitating win/win situations is not as good as it
> will be in six months. I'm getting better. So even though I may not be
> able to get to a win/win in a lot of situations, I'm getting better at it.
> I keep striving for that goal, and I keep getting closer and closer.
>

Yes, I agree it's really helpful to see living by win/ win or common
preference as an ideal we're working towards in each moment. Viewing it
that way helps us be more forgiving of ourselves and others in those
moments where it doesn't come easily so we can move forward and do
better next time.

With one caveat: that we're always mindfully striving towards that ideal
and not using that viewpoint as an excuse to continue to fall short.


--
~~Danielle
Emily (9), Julia (8), Sam (7)
http://www.organiclearning.blogspot.com

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Connections: ezine of unschooling and mindful parenting
http://connections.organiclearning.org

diana jenner

On 7/13/07, Robert Saxon <TheSaxons@...> wrote:
>
> My skill right now at facilitating win/win situations is not as good as
> it
> will be in six months. I'm getting better. So even though I may not be
> able to get to a win/win in a lot of situations, I'm getting better at it.
> I keep striving for that goal, and I keep getting closer and closer.
>
> .__,_._,
>

For me it *is* in the striving where magic happens. In the searching for
win/win, in the *knowing* in my heart that it is possible to meet the needs
presented to me (no, it's really never like what any of us have in hour
thoughts at the beginning). I have to hold myself in the esteem of really
and truly being able to handle whatever comes my way -- i.e. two kids going
two different directions at the exact same time, needing me only me right
now! -- because only *that* diana/mommy can do it. First I breathe, then I
remind myself of my capability and that the answer exists. I ask the kid(s)
for input. I remind them of my goal to take care of the needs of the team.
It's not 100% and probably never will be; still human. Because I strive to
give what I got, there's a lot of faith in me and an overall sense of
win/win/win in our lives.
--
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.blogspot.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert Saxon

My Ideal:
Step 1: Continually (and almost arrogantly) believe that I can achieve
win/win.
Step 2: If and when it doesn't work, figure out why. Return to Step 1.

My reality:
Let's just say I'd like to claim that I do that. ;-)

--Rob

> With one caveat: that we're always mindfully striving towards that ideal
> and not using that viewpoint as an excuse to continue to fall short.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]